Realistic Job Prospects for Recent Grad

[tourterelle]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but I keep hearing conflicting things about post-grad job prospects. Some say that finding more than one day a week is getting lucky and that that's the best you can hope for for a while. Others say you may have to piece together part time jobs (which implies that this is doable) then being able to find a FT position after a year or a few years.

Doing a job search myself scares the crap out of me. On monster (http://jobsearch.monster.com/search/Physician-__2D-Optometrist_5) there are 12 jobs TOTAL in the US. Craigslist in the greater LA area (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=7&subAreaID=&query=optometrist&catAbb=jjj) turns up a single job that does not have a mandatory 2nd language. Kansas City and Chicago turn up zero. Entire SF bay has 2 part time jobs. NY is a bit better with 10 and more in NJ. Walmart had plenty of openings for leases, but my understanding is that it's just a lease and not a job (please correct me if I'm wrong)? Are there significantly more openings in commercial or is it just as bad?

Can any recent grads give any insight on how quickly they were able to find a job after graduation, as well as whether the job was full time and whether you had to relocate for the job (and where you live)?

*To clarify, I am entering optometry school in the fall, although I'm sure others appreciate the job searching advice. I am mainly trying to get a better idea of what I am getting myself into.

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[Jason K]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but I keep hearing conflicting things about post-grad job prospects. Some say that finding more than one day a week is getting lucky and that that's the best you can hope for for a while. Others say you may have to piece together part time jobs (which implies that this is doable) then being able to find a FT position after a year or a few years.

Doing a job search myself scares the crap out of me. On monster (http://jobsearch.monster.com/search/Physician-__2D-Optometrist_5) there are 12 jobs TOTAL in the US. Craigslist in the greater LA area (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=7&subAreaID=&query=optometrist&catAbb=jjj) turns up a single job that does not have a mandatory 2nd language. Kansas City and Chicago turn up zero. Entire SF bay has 2 part time jobs. NY is a bit better with 10 and more in NJ. Walmart had plenty of openings for leases, but my understanding is that it's just a lease and not a job (please correct me if I'm wrong)? Are there significantly more openings in commercial or is it just as bad?

Can any recent grads give any insight on how quickly they were able to find a job after graduation, as well as whether the job was full time and whether you had to relocate for the job (and where you live)?

If you are willing to relocate to a far away state, work for a commercial garbage bin, and practice "optometry," in which you pretty much gloss over all health assessment, so that you can sell 2 pairs of glasses, you'll probably be able to find something. These days, commercial optometry is the name of the game. If you're planning on landing that associateship in a 5 doctor office, with a clear path to partnership, you might as well be planning on being the next astronaut. It's possible, and people do get those jobs, but there are probably 60 grads for every one of those positions (no, that's not an exaggeration).

It's bad - very bad, and it's only going to get worse as we continue to crank out more and more product that isn't needed. Welcome to the new optometry, where your services and skills are no longer of much value, and what you're good for, is writing scripts to sell materials.

The schools seem to know what's coming, since several of them have added non-OD curricula in the last couple of years. It's as if they see the coming drought in new OD fuel, so they figure they have to find some other source of income, once that dries up.

Negative? Yup - sometimes you have to recognize a lost cause, and call it what it is. Optometry is just that (for most new grads), a lost cause.

 

[optgal]

Im sure you find a job for $75,000-$90,000 somewhee

 

[optgal]

Could**

 

[EyEnStein 07]

I think its just difficult to find opportunities or know what to do when you dont know where to look for them. I struggle with this myself when it comes to finding out information on optometry.

Anyways, since you mentioned craigslist in CA, you should look here (click Full Time permanent positions again to close the listing and look through the other listings):

http://optometry.berkeley.edu/gener...-od-listings#full-time-permanent-od-positions

There are plenty of opportunities, but you might have to go from place to place until you find out something that works well for you. This is also the main page: http://optometry.berkeley.edu/students/resources-jobs-practices-optometry

 

[KHE]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but I keep hearing conflicting things about post-grad job prospects. Some say that finding more than one day a week is getting lucky and that that's the best you can hope for for a while. Others say you may have to piece together part time jobs (which implies that this is doable) then being able to find a FT position after a year or a few years.

Doing a job search myself scares the crap out of me. On monster (http://jobsearch.monster.com/search/Physician-__2D-Optometrist_5) there are 12 jobs TOTAL in the US. Craigslist in the greater LA area (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=7&subAreaID=&query=optometrist&catAbb=jjj) turns up a single job that does not have a mandatory 2nd language. Kansas City and Chicago turn up zero. Entire SF bay has 2 part time jobs. NY is a bit better with 10 and more in NJ. Walmart had plenty of openings for leases, but my understanding is that it's just a lease and not a job (please correct me if I'm wrong)? Are there significantly more openings in commercial or is it just as bad?

Can any recent grads give any insight on how quickly they were able to find a job after graduation, as well as whether the job was full time and whether you had to relocate for the job (and where you live)?

Have you actually gradated? If so, send me a PM

 

[tourterelle]

I apologize if I wasn't clear, I am starting optometry school in the fall but I am having some second thoughts based on the job market. I know I am like a million others out there and I want to stay near a city (I'm from LA), but one job per month in greater LA area works out to ~12 a year from craigslist, maybe the same number from some other job sites. Let's be generous and say maybe 30 postings (would you say this is accurate?) for the ~180 graduates that SCCO and Western (not even counting Berkeley) will put per year out just seems like terrible odds...

I would be willing to take a pay cut and cobble together part time jobs to stay in CA (yes, I know this makes me part of the problem unfortunately) but is that even possible? I could be happy in other major cities in the US outside of CA, or suburbs/within driving distance of major cities, but I would probably be suicidal in the middle of no where.

 

[dudestheman90]

I think you need to talk to a new recent graduate, 2008 and up. Don't ask a baby boomer that has a well established practice. The baby boomers and even going back further caused the problems for this generation and now we are dealing with their mistakes. Ask him/her, did they know someone when they graduated? how did they land a job? was it part-time or full-time? how long did it take them? Was it worth the debt? did they receive good benefits package? did they have to relocate?

Also remember we are in an economic recession, a degree doesn't guarantee anything. I personally wish students would demand more from their school as in if you as a student was misled and graduated with enormous debt and couldn't find a job then they should give you all your money back. I don't want to sound self-entitled, but yeah if i put in so much time/money/and energy into something than i do expect something in return. Esp. if a school or profession misleads you into doing it. Also going against the contrary belief, No I don't believe healthcare is recession proof. This past 2 years hospitals have been shutting down, we are feeling the bite now.

 

[opto2be]

These days, commercial optometry is the name of the game. If you're planning on landing that associateship in a 5 doctor office, with a clear path to partnership, you might as well be planning on being the next astronaut. It's possible, and people do get those jobs, but there are probably 60 grads for every one of those positions (no, that's not an exaggeration).

Despite the increase in corporate optometry, aren't most optometrists still in private practice overall? Won't many of them be retiring at some point? Aren't there going to be opportunities to purchase a practice or at least land a position in one? So isn't the 1:60 ratio you mentioned an exaggeration?

 

[optometrygirl29]

if you want a better job search check out iHireoptometry.com it does cost money to search but they are only posting optometry based jobs and you can post a resume on there I believe! Private practice ARE indeed suffering depending on location and doctor mentality. If your of the mindset that you are only going to take 1 insurance (because reimbursemnt is best) then your success is bleak at best. Commercial Optometry has a higher patient volume and take every insurance but that simply means having to see a high volume of patients depending on where you are and quality of optical goods can be ify (though it has nothing to do with the doctor, patients dont see it that way). Most doctors think that if they raise prices of optical goods and services and that is fine but understand that patients can easily go online or to some commerical location and get something of equal or lesser quality for much less money and they probably would be sufficiently satisfied. As you may notice, I in fact am not an OD. SO HOW, you may be asking, do i know this to be certain? Because I have worked in this business for over 8 years in the business, half commercial and half private practice. And i can tell you that the private practice im currently working is suffering greatly!!! we take few insurances "bc they pay the most" and yet the schedule is empty and everyday we lose patients bc we are unwilling to take any "crap" insurances. my philosophy is that some money is better than NO money. if people arent coming in bc we charge outrageous amounts of money then we arent going to be successful. Private practice docs tend to have huge egos and tell pts that they are not getting quality eye care by going to commercial locations..Im sorry buts its a 4yr program no matter where you go. its all up to you as to how you want to play the game....

 

[optometrygirl29]

you could also try to find an ophthalmologist willing to hire you into their practice! same high volume of patients (will get a large majority of old folk depending on area demographic)

 

[pienfoo]

in southern california yes. it really is bad. you have to be lucky, very good, very personable, to get a full time job offering at a commercial practice. most people would say oh yeah if you're lucky you'll join a private practice and everything is marry and happy from that point on. that's not true either. you will most likely have ALOT of loans to pay back. and private practices don't pay very much at all you're looking at approx 300/325 a day; some offer 75k a year if you are lucky enough to get a full time position. then you have to buy into the practice. that requires a large down payment of 10-15 usually which equates to about 25-35k minimum, and then if you're lucky the owner will finance your portion; lets assume he's willing to let you take 30% or 50% of the practice share which is very good, you will be putting in an additional 150-250K financed over 10 years, in addition to your student loans, in addition to paying alot of taxes. unless you don't have loans and get very lucky yes in 10 years things might work out assuming the practice you take over is viable and is somewhat updated and still growing. otherwise, you will stress out age very quickly and have a practice that you don't know what to do with because by that time the oversupply in california/world will be overwhelming and you'll be begging to get a lease spot at JCPenny. that, is reality. i suggest the new grads to move out of the state if possible.

 

[Jason K]

Despite the increase in corporate optometry, aren't most optometrists still in private practice overall? Won't many of them be retiring at some point? Aren't there going to be opportunities to purchase a practice or at least land a position in one? So isn't the 1:60 ratio you mentioned an exaggeration?

Yes, optometry has been a private practice profession, until the last decade or so. The change toward commercial is moving full steam right now, it's just not apparent when you use the percentage of practitioners in commercial vs PP as the indicator. There are plenty of private practices out there, and most of them are solo ODs. The solo practitioner model is fast becoming obsolete due to ever-increasing overhead costs, regulations, and red tape, and ever-decreasing reimbursements - not just in optometry. If I had a dollar for every private practice, solo-OD whom I've heard say something to the effect of, "Man, I better sell this office now because in a few years, it'll be worth half what it is now...," well, I'd have about 20 dollars.

The guys who are getting set to retire did great. They got in at the right time, when it was cheap, and reimbursements were high. Now, the OD costs up to 50X what it did then (in many cases, that number is accurate), and the payoff is far lower. Do the math.

So, if you think there will be dozens and dozens of low-hanging fruit to pick from, since doctors will be retiring in droves over the next few years, think again.

 

[iiii]

Kenneth Myers, OD, who I believe was the chief of the VA optometry residency program had an interesting statement:

1. The Abt. manpower study predicted a surplus of ODs by this time based upon the graduation rate remaining constant at 1,150 (the rate in 2000) when the study was released. This report was funded, supported and supervised by the AOA. The current AOA Executive Director was the chairman of the advisory committee to Abt. associates when the study was conducted.

2. The graduation rate is now at 1,763 and will increase beyond this with the two new schools to about 2,000. This is almost double the graduation rate of the year 2000 when Abt. calculated a surplus of about 4,000 in 2012.

3. Last year the total number of unique, qualified applicants to all schools was equal to 1,700 and at least one school had too few applicants to fill all seats.

4. The ACOE academic standards are so vague and subjective that even the Grundy school in a village of 1,100 in a poverty stricken isolated area of Virginia has received provisional accreditation.

5. The AOA continues to feed misleadingly glowingly optimistic projections for a need for more ODs to the Bureau of Labor Statistics despite being told their projections are wrong. I know this from personal, direct knowledge.

6. My experience tells me a school will work to fill all their seats and adjust their standards to do so.

A profession with no creditable bars to entry soon becomes filled to overflowing with second and third-rate students and graduates.

I suggest you Google "The Tragedy of the Commons" to see what will happen.

 

[opto2be]

Yes, optometry has been a private practice profession, until the last decade or so. The change toward commercial is moving full steam right now, it's just not apparent when you use the percentage of practitioners in commercial vs PP as the indicator. There are plenty of private practices out there, and most of them are solo ODs. The solo practitioner model is fast becoming obsolete due to ever-increasing overhead costs, regulations, and red tape, and ever-decreasing reimbursements - not just in optometry. If I had a dollar for every private practice, solo-OD whom I've heard say something to the effect of, "Man, I better sell this office now because in a few years, it'll be worth half what it is now...," well, I'd have about 20 dollars.

The guys who are getting set to retire did great. They got in at the right time, when it was cheap, and reimbursements were high. Now, the OD costs up to 50X what it did then (in many cases, that number is accurate), and the payoff is far lower. Do the math.

So, if you think there will be dozens and dozens of low-hanging fruit to pick from, since doctors will be retiring in droves over the next few years, think again.

What would you say is the biggest problem facing optometry right now and in the foreseeable future? Commercialization or something else?

 

[KHE]

I think that right now, the biggest problem is oversupply of providers. Far too many ODs are being produced and that number is only going up and there simply isn't that level of demand for optometric services.

 

[Jason K]

What would you say is the biggest problem facing optometry right now and in the foreseeable future? Commercialization or something else?

As KHE said, the main issue is that we're cranking out ODs at a rate that far exceeds the need to replace retiring docs - to a point that it's completely irrational. Oversupply, commercialization, devaluation of services, etc, are all connected. The whole snowball can be traced to optometry being unwilling to control itself. That's the problem.

 

[opto2be]

I've heard similar concerns from physicians and dentists about oversupply in their respective professions. Do you think oversupply is more deleterious for optometry than other health care professions?

 

[KHE]

I've heard similar concerns from physicians and dentists about oversupply in their respective professions. Do you think oversupply is more deleterious for optometry than other health care professions?

I can not speak for dentists though I have never heard of a physician (other than ophthalmologists oddly enough) complain of oversupply.

 

[Jason K]

I've heard similar concerns from physicians and dentists about oversupply in their respective professions. Do you think oversupply is more deleterious for optometry than other health care professions?

Dentistry is certainly starting to see some pressures from oversupply, but it's a minuscule fraction of what optometry is experiencing. Dentistry, as a profession, has been far more intelligent with controlling its numbers. Optometry seems to have the attitude that, the more crowded we get, the more undervalued our services become, the more schools we need to open. To hear the likes of Dori Carslon or Les Walls discuss the "coming shortage of ODs," or how "you'll be entering optometry at the best time in history," is truly disturbing, and points to the complete disregard for rationality and common sense. Optometry is no dentistry, you can be sure of that, and while other health professions might complain with good reason, optometry is in a cesspool, all it's own.

Those of you who hear all of this, and choose to enter the profession anyway, will certainly come to a point where you finally "get it," and I can just about guarantee you that you'll look back on these forums, and wish you had read a little more carefully.

 

[opto2be]

I can not speak for dentists though I have never heard of a physician (other than ophthalmologists oddly enough) complain of oversupply.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said oversupply; rather, physicians believe their current numbers are sufficient. They disagree with the the assessment of the AMA of a physician shortage, which is eerily similar to the view maintained by the AOA of an OD shortage.

 

[opto2be]

To hear the likes of Dori Carslon or Les Walls discuss the "coming shortage of ODs," or how "you'll be entering optometry at the best time in history," is truly disturbing, and points to the complete disregard for rationality and common sense.

I agree. It's probably not the best time in history to enter any profession, including optometry, given the state of the economy.

By the way, don't you guys technically consider yourselves to be physicians too since optometrists are defined as such under Medicare? I ask because we seem to be using physician in the sense of MD.

 

[vistaril]

I agree. It's probably not the best time in history to enter any profession, including optometry, given the state of the economy.

By the way, don't you guys technically consider yourselves to be physicians too since optometrists are defined as such under Medicare? I ask because we seem to be using physician in the sense of MD.

I don't think any optometrist would consider themselves to be a physician. A physician is someone who graduates from medical school and practices in some area of medicine. I don't that's a definition that is up for interpretation.

And it's a great time to enter tons of different areas of medicine.

As for dentistry, not sure why all the comparisons are made to it on this forum.....I know a lot of people in dental schools and dental residencies, and none of them debated going to optometry school at any point in their careers. It is not uncommon for med students to have tossed around the idea of dental school in that heads, and vice-versa.

Podiatry school is probably a more realistic analogy.

 

[averagestudent8]

Jason K, the world population is increasing at an exponential rate and I strongly believe the future of optometry is solid. It's all relative to what we consider "solid", right? Consider that 98% of the world makes less than $40K. The question has been the same your entire life "What sets you apart from others in the field, whether that was school, sports, teams, clubs etc". If the answer is negativity about the future of something unpredictable, then you are done in terms of success from the beginning. Stop whining, stop complaining, and stop trying to bring individuals down as I respectfully decline to be swayed by your consistent griping. Stretch the comfort zone and grow. Also, be grateful that you even had the chance to help someone with vision as it is a priviledge to help others, not something that should be taken for granted.

"Try not to become a man of success, but a man of value" -Einstein

 

[KHE]

Jason K, the world population is increasing at an exponential rate and I strongly believe the future of optometry is solid. It's all relative to what we consider "solid", right? Consider that 98% of the world makes less than $40K. The question has been the same your entire life "What sets you apart from others in the field, whether that was school, sports, teams, clubs etc". If the answer is negativity about the future of something unpredictable, then you are done in terms of success from the beginning. Stop whining, stop complaining, and stop trying to bring individuals down as I respectfully decline to be swayed by your consistent griping. Stretch the comfort zone and grow. Also, be grateful that you even had the chance to help someone with vision as it is a priviledge to help others, not something that should be taken for granted.

"Try not to become a man of success, but a man of value" -Einstein

Not a good analogy.

While it is true that 98% of the world makes less than 40k, 98% of the world also doesn't subject themselves to 8-9 years of post secondary education and hundeds of thousands of dollars in debt.

 

[Jason K]

Jason K, the world population is increasing at an exponential rate and I strongly believe the future of optometry is solid. It's all relative to what we consider "solid", right? Consider that 98% of the world makes less than $40K. The question has been the same your entire life "What sets you apart from others in the field, whether that was school, sports, teams, clubs etc". If the answer is negativity about the future of something unpredictable, then you are done in terms of success from the beginning. Stop whining, stop complaining, and stop trying to bring individuals down as I respectfully decline to be swayed by your consistent griping. Stretch the comfort zone and grow. Also, be grateful that you even had the chance to help someone with vision as it is a priviledge to help others, not something that should be taken for granted.

"Try not to become a man of success, but a man of value" -Einstein

Oh, to be young and clueless. Look, if you're happy making less than $40K, then you'll no doubt be just fine, at least financially, being an OD in tomorrow's optometry. After you pay your loans, that may very well be not far off from the lifestyle you'll be living. If you're ok with that, you'll be thrilled with your financial situation as an OD. Unfortunately, when you're working in 4 different Walmarts, commuting and hour and forty five minutes, and getting no benefits, you might rethink your last post.

There simply is not enough need to spread over the 2K new grads that will be getting pumped out every year, and that number may be climbing further. People are profiting from your decision to pursue this career, and it will very likely not be you.

I'm not saying this to discourage you further, but I really don't care about you, dude - it's too late for you. I'm here for the people who still have the chance to avoid making a colossal error in the planning of their financial/professional future. As I've said before, my purpose on this site is not to crap in people's cheerios; it's to warn students that optometry is very likely not what they think it is.

I hear countless ODs saying "I wonder why no one does anything about this. Why doesn't the AOA take action? Why won't the schools do something? Why are we just standing here and watching optometry destroy itself?" Well, all good questions, with easy answers, if you follow the money. I'm here doing something about it.

So, averagestudent, in my view, you're already a casualty in the war on optometry, you just don't know it yet. You're in it now - make the best of it.

 

[pod101]

1,763

Wow. Podiatry produces about 600 graduates per year. With a constantly aging population I am surprised OD are having problems finding jobs, but I am a podiatry student not an OD so what would I know.

Podiatry school is probably a more realistic analogy.

How is podiatry like Optometry?

 

[averagestudent8]

Oh, to be young and clueless. Look, if you're happy making less than $40K, then you'll no doubt be just fine, at least financially, being an OD in tomorrow's optometry. After you pay your loans, that may very well be not far off from the lifestyle you'll be living. If you're ok with that, you'll be thrilled with your financial situation as an OD. Unfortunately, when you're working in 4 different Walmarts, commuting and hour and forty five minutes, and getting no benefits, you might rethink your last post.

There simply is not enough need to spread over the 2K new grads that will be getting pumped out every year, and that number may be climbing further. People are profiting from your decision to pursue this career, and it will very likely not be you.

I'm not saying this to discourage you further, but I really don't care about you, dude - it's too late for you. I'm here for the people who still have the chance to avoid making a colossal error in the planning of their financial/professional future. As I've said before, my purpose on this site is not to crap in people's cheerios; it's to warn students that optometry is very likely not what they think it is.

I hear countless ODs saying "I wonder why no one does anything about this. Why doesn't the AOA take action? Why won't the schools do something? Why are we just standing here and watching optometry destroy itself?" Well, all good questions, with easy answers, if you follow the money. I'm here doing something about it.

So, averagestudent, in my view, you're already a casualty in the war on optometry, you just don't know it yet. You're in it now - make the best of it.

Well, I'm going to have my schooling paid for by the military and I speak Spanish so this will open a few more doors for me. Also, you're mistaken as I have not started optometry school yet. I have been accepted but am going to start this year, so there you go assuming again.

I can recognize an obsession when I see one and yours seems to be with making money. If you focus on helping others, then money doesn't matter. You probably are like the millions of Americans (I'm American) who get caught up in things they can not control and drive yourself crazy. You post a lot and it is always negative. I bet people don't like you and that's kind of sad for you lol. Classic example of someone who is really smart with noooo people skills. If you learn those skills, maybe...just maybe you can get a few people to step inside of your office. The thing is, we are all going to fail along the way but you sir, you are done because you don't continue to adapt...unless complaining is adapting in your mind.

So, I will be debt free after four years out of school with military experience. I am bilingual as I received my undergrad in Spanish and Bio. How will I be a "causualty in the war on optometry" again?

Do you watch a lot of CNN and get caught up in the "America is dead" debate? Are you depressed Jason K?

 

[vistaril]

Wow. Podiatry produces about 600 graduates per year. With a constantly aging population I am surprised OD are having problems finding jobs, but I am a podiatry student not an OD so what would I know.

How is podiatry like Optometry?

well both are non-MD/DO professional schools in the health professions. both(unlike chiro) practice in an evidence based model(for the most part). Both are not super competitive to enter.

I do agree that the future would seem to be much much brighter(for grads that can get good surgical training after pod school) for podiatrists.

 

[KHE]

I can recognize an obsession when I see one and yours seems to be with making money. If you focus on helping others, then money doesn't matter.

That's a naive view point. Yes, it's wonderful to focus on "helping others" but the reality is that most students entering optometry are going to graduate with debt loads that are in the tens and for many, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Because of that...money will matter to those people. Just the cold, hard reality.

So, I will be debt free after four years out of school with military experience. I am bilingual as I received my undergrad in Spanish and Bio. How will I be a "causualty in the war on optometry" again?

You then will be content piecing together part time days into a full time work week for $350 a day. That's a good thing.

 

[Jason K]

Well, I'm going to have my schooling paid for by the military and I speak Spanish so this will open a few more doors for me. Also, you're mistaken as I have not started optometry school yet. I have been accepted but am going to start this year, so there you go assuming again.

I can recognize an obsession when I see one and yours seems to be with making money. If you focus on helping others, then money doesn't matter. You probably are like the millions of Americans (I'm American) who get caught up in things they can not control and drive yourself crazy. You post a lot and it is always negative. I bet people don't like you and that's kind of sad for you lol. Classic example of someone who is really smart with noooo people skills. If you learn those skills, maybe...just maybe you can get a few people to step inside of your office. The thing is, we are all going to fail along the way but you sir, you are done because you don't continue to adapt...unless complaining is adapting in your mind.

So, I will be debt free after four years out of school with military experience. I am bilingual as I received my undergrad in Spanish and Bio. How will I be a "causualty in the war on optometry" again?

Ahhh, another brainwashed sheep, who has been trained by the liberal education system that being poor is glorious, and being successful is tantamount to evil. Now I truly feel for you - you haven't even jumped yet, but you've already decided that there will be a nice sturdy ledge below you. If you plan on staying in the military for your entire career, you might actually be ok. If you have plans of leaving the military, good luck.

Here's the problem, when you get out into the real world, you actually have to do this thing where you hand over money in exchange for goods and services. No one cares about "feelings," or how soft and fluffy your heart is, they want their money. That's the way the world works, chief.

Now, if you want to get out of school and give away your time for free, have at it. Why not just join the Peace Corps, or better yet Americorps? Why not? You get to live out your dream of helping the needy, you get your low pay that your after, and you'll be surrounded by liberals. Go live in a hut in Africa, doing eye exams on villagers who need care desperately. What could be better?

Do you watch a lot of CNN and get caught up in the "America is dead" debate? Are you depressed Jason K?

Ok, now I'm starting to think we're seeing a return of the great imemily, or better yet, Shnurek. In a few years, you'll know enough to understand how void of rationality this is. CNN is a decidedly pro-Obama, liberal "news" outlet. It was coined the "Clinton News Network," in the mid 90s for a reason. I understand that you were in diapers during the 90s, so I'll let it go. Jump on board with all of your liberals gal-pals and just bash Fox News, it's much more befitting and it's the only non-leftist media outlet on television.

Go get 'em tiger - there's a big world of optometric opportunity out there for you and your colleagues. Thousands of box stores, commercial retail locations, garbage vision companies, and declining private offices to work at. I really hope you're planning on doing a full military career, for your sake. If you are, great. For the rest of your colleagues, they might as well be burning their money.

 

[Ime]

Where has Shnurek been? No posts from him in a loong time??

 

[averagestudent8]

Go get 'em tiger - there's a big world of optometric opportunity out there for you and your colleagues. Thousands of box stores, commercial retail locations, garbage vision companies, and declining private offices to work at. I really hope you're planning on doing a full military career, for your sake. If you are, great. For the rest of your colleagues, they might as well be burning their money.[/QUOTE]

 

[opto2be]

That's a naive view point. Yes, it's wonderful to focus on "helping others" but the reality is that most students entering optometry are going to graduate with debt loads that are in the tens and for many, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Because of that...money will matter to those people. Just the cold, hard reality.



You then will be content piecing together part time days into a full time work week for $350 a day. That's a good thing.

It seems like you were more optimistic about optometry's future. Is your perspective becoming more like Jason's?

 

[KHE]

It seems like you were more optimistic about optometry's future. Is your perspective becoming more like Jason's?

I have never been particularly optimistic about optometrys future but I am not anywhere near as negative as Jason and I do still believe that any person can make it in this business if they think about it the right way and plan for it the right way. Jason disagrees and that's fine. We can agree to disagree on that.

I do think however that the notion of "just focus on helping people and you'll be fine" is naive at best.

 

[Jason K]

I have never been particularly optimistic about optometrys future but I am not anywhere near as negative as Jason and I do still believe that any person can make it in this business if they think about it the right way and plan for it the right way. Jason disagrees and that's fine. We can agree to disagree on that.

I do think however that the notion of "just focus on helping people and you'll be fine" is naive at best.

Actually, I've never said that absolutely no one will ever be able to succeed in optometry again. There will be a few, and to my knowledge, those are the people to whom you are speaking. I'm talking to the other 99%, who will necessarily have nowhere to land. There are never any absolutes, and as dismal as the outlook is for optometry, I've never claimed otherwise. As I've said before, the problem is that the 99% who hit the dead end, will unwillingly contribute to the destruction of the profession from within, by feeding the forces that are bringing it down. They'll have no other choice, but to follow the herd over the cliff.

 

[opto2be]

As I've said before, the problem is that the 99% who hit the dead end, will unwillingly contribute to the destruction of the profession from within, by feeding the forces that are bringing it down.

In particular, do you mean corporate optometry and the new schools?

 

[opto2be]

Also, would either of you recommend your kids or younger siblings to enter optometry considering they, unlike most others, would have the advantage of joining your practices if they choose to? If not, what career path would you recommend?

 

[Jason K]

In particular, do you mean corporate optometry and the new schools?

It's all connected. There is little separation between the optometry that will be had by grads of established programs, and those coming out of new schools. The entire profession is being swallowed up by commercial forces. There will always be a few respectable positions for grads, but when 1 or 2 out of a class of 150 end up in "good" positions, there's something wrong. That's where we're heading. People can deny it all they want, but the numbers tell the story.

I'm not on here to act as a career counselor. There are many factors that go into deciding on a profession, only a few of which can be discussed online. I'm only here to inform would be optometry students, that the profession is nothing like the image that is portrayed to them - that's it.

If someone is ok with working retail hours, disregarding ocular health, and being bossed around by a high school grad, and they're ok topping out with 60-75K/yr, before paying back their student loans, then the optometry of the future might be just what they're looking for. This might seem like a stretch right now, but in a few years, when the whole system bottoms out, that's where we'll be.

 

[vistaril]

It's all connected. There is little separation between the optometry that will be had by grads of established programs, and those coming out of new schools. The entire profession is being swallowed up by commercial forces. There will always be a few respectable positions for grads, but when 1 or 2 out of a class of 150 end up in "good" positions, there's something wrong. That's where we're heading. People can deny it all they want, but the numbers tell the story.

I'm not on here to act as a career counselor. There are many factors that go into deciding on a profession, only a few of which can be discussed online. I'm only here to inform would be optometry students, that the profession is nothing like the image that is portrayed to them - that's it.

If someone is ok with working retail hours, disregarding ocular health, and being bossed around by a high school grad, and they're ok topping out with 60-75K/yr, before paying back their student loans, then the optometry of the future might be just what they're looking for. This might seem like a stretch right now, but in a few years, when the whole system bottoms out, that's where we'll be.

at a dailyrate of ~300/day, cobbling together lots of commercial per diem contract work(with no or little benefits), isnt that where the field is now? assuming 230-40 days/year...

 

[Optedirectioned]

I've been reading a lot about the oversupply of optometrist and the decline of the profession. I'm not in a position to give my opinions (considering how I have no solid data), but what about the state of optometry in Canada? There are significantly less graduates from Canadian optometry schools (less than 200/year). I know commercialization is happening all over North America, but I would think that optometry is a lot lucrative in Canada compared to the US. Am I correct or delusional?