Really confused.. Should I get my Master's?

[ideedit]

I'm going to be a senior in undergrad, and I am a little lost..

Brief background:

3.3 undergrad so far, 3.6 or so in major, 3.8 fall semester '11 and around that for spring '12 (studying abroad)
1 semester of research experience (going to do 2 in fall/spring)
Volunteered at a hospital
Worked in a psychiatric ward
Volunteered 2 years in a hotline for troubled students
Have a position in a school club dedicated to removing stigma of mental health issues
Currently working with a service organization helping disadvantaged kids learning to read

I want to be a counselor and deal with people who have issues with loss, coping with stress, things like that. I don't know (at least yet) if I can handle working with more severe pathologies like schizophrenia, bpd, etc, etc.

So I've been thinking about getting a masters in counseling. There's so much information online that it is frankly overwhelming.

1) Would getting this allow me to open a private practice?
2) How much does a typical program cost... is debt very commonplace for after the degree?
3) I know I would be limited in terms of diagnosing/performing tests, but would I be limited in the scope of my patients? I would prefer to work with people that have personal problems, relationship issues, loss, stress, self-esteem, etc and as of now I am not sure (but not discounting) the possibility of working with more disturbed individuals.
4) What exactly does the process entail for masters program and getting out? Do I need an internship, matching, etc? Or do I get out, get licensed through a test, and instantly start practicing?

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[Wyrmcrawler]

Hey,
I am a LMHC from NY, so this information may be a little different for your state. However, if your program is CACREP accredited or compliant then it works out to be pretty similar in experience.

1) Would getting this allow me to open a private practice?

Yes, you could open your own practice once you are licensed. However, most professionals feel that you should work under an experienced individual(s) before "putting up a shingle".

2) How much does a typical program cost... is debt very commonplace for after the degree?

My program was 7-10k a year at a state school. So look at having around 20-30k in debt, at a state school, for your graduate degree. This can be lowered if there are scholarships, Graduate Assistantships, and if somehow you find out you inherited a small fortune from an unknown dead relative. We all have school debt, think of it as a life tax for living a life you want.

3) I know I would be limited in terms of diagnosing/performing tests, but would I be limited in the scope of my patients? I would prefer to work with people that have personal problems, relationship issues, loss, stress, self-esteem, etc. and as of now I am not sure (but not discounting) the possibility of working with more disturbed individuals.

Working as a LMHC, this week alone I have had two new clients referred to me by their primary physician to give a mental health evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment plan. One I diagnosed with Paranoid-Schizophrenia, and the other with Borderline Personality Disorder. This field is one based on collaboration with other professionals. You will hear from all camps, even our own, on how they/we are the best and the other Mental Health professionals stink. In the end of the day insurances pay me for my services, clients are receiving the best care possible by collaborating, and my scope of practice has never been an issue. If I feel a client needs medication and/or their medication is not working then I work with their physicians to correct it. For testing, if I have the time to do a psycho-social, cognitive and personality assessment I will. Most likely I will refer them out to a psychologist, not because I can't do one or that it is not in my scope of practice, in all honesty I just don't have the time. Again, I am in New York so for you scope of practice may be a little different. In the end we are comparable to the scope of practice with Clinical Social Workers, though we have a wellness model and they have the social justice slant. In the end, as long as you collaborate with professionals and are working in your areas of competency, you are fine.

4) What exactly does the process entail for masters program and getting out? Do I need an internship, matching, etc.? Or do I get out, get licensed through a test, and instantly start practicing?

For my program, after the first year the faculty votes on your candidacy (looking at your progress, grades, participation, ethics etc.). If they do not rule in your majority, you're gone. After you make candidacy, you start your 300 hour practicum and then a 900 hour internship. If you pass all your academic classes and clinical internships, you then take a content test that is nationwide called the Counselor Preparation Comprehensive Examination. If you pass this, then you graduate with your degree. So, starts your clinical years or post graduate work. You now have to apply for your limited permit and work under the supervision of licensed professionals for 3000 hours (equals out to around two years) of direct client hours. After that you take the National Clinical Mental Health Counseling Examination (NCMHCE) and hopefully pass. Then you are a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC), in NY anyhow. Then there are CE credits and keeping your license up to date. After all this then you can start practicing independently, or decide to become a florist.

P.S- Sorry if the post is horribly written, I am super tired. I just wanted to get to your post before I slept and would of forgot by morning.

Hope this helps,
Wyrmcrawler

 

[wigflip]

The only beef I have with Wyrmcrawler's above post is the implication that it might be "horribly written." In addition to being helpful, Wyrmcrawler has some serious writing chops!

My apologies if Wyrmcrawler made this clear and I somehow missed it, but to be explicit: much of the answers to OP's questions vary by state. Given the OP's background, I can't imagine that gaining admission to a licensable masters program would be a problem. So it sounds like the issues are more related to educational cost, scope of practice, and licensing. OP will probably get a good head start, if s/he hasn't done this already, by googling her/his local state licensing board (try "board of behavioral sciences" or similar).

Two other quick tidbits: things like the importance of your program's status with regards to CACREP accreditation seem to vary widely by state. Best to find that out in advance.

Also, OP mentions "matching." This is an issue (actually, a big one) for people pursuing doctoral study in psych, but not folks at the masters level.

Good luck!

 

[Wyrmcrawler]

Thanks Wigflip, I appriciate the comment.

Wigflip made a great point, there are differences by state. Counselors right now have a little harder time transfering licenses to new States, since our licenses are younger, then some other professionals. However, in the end it really is not to much of a big deal depending on where your license originated. If you recieve your license from a stringent state, it makes the process a million times better. Though, I would take what Wigflip said about looking at your state behavioral board and knowing the technical aspects of what is required or needed for whatever profession you land on. Also, look at states in which you may want to practice in and see what you may need.

 

[ideedit]

Hey,
I am a LMHC from NY, so this information may be a little different for your state. However, if your program is CACREP accredited or compliant then it works out to be pretty similar in experience.

1) Would getting this allow me to open a private practice?

Yes, you could open your own practice once you are licensed. However, most professionals feel that you should work under an experienced individual(s) before “putting up a shingle”.

2) How much does a typical program cost... is debt very commonplace for after the degree?

My program was 7-10k a year at a state school. So look at having around 20-30k in debt, at a state school, for your graduate degree. This can be lowered if there are scholarships, Graduate Assistantships, and if somehow you find out you inherited a small fortune from an unknown dead relative. We all have school debt, think of it as a life tax for living a life you want.

3) I know I would be limited in terms of diagnosing/performing tests, but would I be limited in the scope of my patients? I would prefer to work with people that have personal problems, relationship issues, loss, stress, self-esteem, etc. and as of now I am not sure (but not discounting) the possibility of working with more disturbed individuals.

Working as a LMHC, this week alone I have had two new clients referred to me by their primary physician to give a mental health evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment plan. One I diagnosed with Paranoid-Schizophrenia, and the other with Borderline Personality Disorder. This field is one based on collaboration with other professionals. You will hear from all camps, even our own, on how they/we are the best and the other Mental Health professionals stink. In the end of the day insurances pay me for my services, clients are receiving the best care possible by collaborating, and my scope of practice has never been an issue. If I feel a client needs medication and/or their medication is not working then I work with their physicians to correct it. For testing, if I have the time to do a psycho-social, cognitive and personality assessment I will. Most likely I will refer them out to a psychologist, not because I can’t do one or that it is not in my scope of practice, in all honesty I just don’t have the time. Again, I am in New York so for you scope of practice may be a little different. In the end we are comparable to the scope of practice with Clinical Social Workers, though we have a wellness model and they have the social justice slant. In the end, as long as you collaborate with professionals and are working in your areas of competency, you are fine.

4) What exactly does the process entail for masters program and getting out? Do I need an internship, matching, etc.? Or do I get out, get licensed through a test, and instantly start practicing?

For my program, after the first year the faculty votes on your candidacy (looking at your progress, grades, participation, ethics etc.). If they do not rule in your majority, you’re gone. After you make candidacy, you start your 300 hour practicum and then a 900 hour internship. If you pass all your academic classes and clinical internships, you then take a content test that is nationwide called the Counselor Preparation Comprehensive Examination. If you pass this, then you graduate with your degree. So, starts your clinical years or post graduate work. You now have to apply for your limited permit and work under the supervision of licensed professionals for 3000 hours (equals out to around two years) of direct client hours. After that you take the National Clinical Mental Health Counseling Examination (NCMHCE) and hopefully pass. Then you are a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC), in NY anyhow. Then there are CE credits and keeping your license up to date. After all this then you can start practicing independently, or decide to become a florist.

P.S- Sorry if the post is horribly written, I am super tired. I just wanted to get to your post before I slept and would of forgot by morning.

Hope this helps,
Wyrmcrawler

Wow that was SO incredibly helpful. Thank you so much! I hope this isn't too prying, but what is the general starting salary for someone with a MA in Counseling psych, and is there significant room for improvement? Or does the salary stay pretty much fixed unless having real success with a private practice? Also, would you say the majority of people with this degree ultimately go back for a PhD or PsyD? And what made you choose this path, out of curiosity?

The only beef I have with Wyrmcrawler's above post is the implication that it might be "horribly written." In addition to being helpful, Wyrmcrawler has some serious writing chops!

My apologies if Wyrmcrawler made this clear and I somehow missed it, but to be explicit: much of the answers to OP's questions vary by state. Given the OP's background, I can't imagine that gaining admission to a licensable masters program would be a problem. So it sounds like the issues are more related to educational cost, scope of practice, and licensing. OP will probably get a good head start, if s/he hasn't done this already, by googling her/his local state licensing board (try "board of behavioral sciences" or similar).

Two other quick tidbits: things like the importance of your program's status with regards to CACREP accreditation seem to vary widely by state. Best to find that out in advance.

Also, OP mentions "matching." This is an issue (actually, a big one) for people pursuing doctoral study in psych, but not folks at the masters level.

Good luck!

Thanks! What scopes of practice in terms of therapy would you say are mostly encompassed by people with a MA in counseling psych vs someone with a PsyD or PhD? Also, why is matching not an issue for those with a MA? Am I wrong in assuming that those with this degree will have more trouble finding a job due to being pitted against PsyD's or PHD's?

Thanks Wigflip, I appriciate the comment.

Wigflip made a great point, there are differences by state. Counselors right now have a little harder time transfering licenses to new States, since our licenses are younger, then some other professionals. However, in the end it really is not to much of a big deal depending on where your license originated. If you recieve your license from a stringent state, it makes the process a million times better. Though, I would take what Wigflip said about looking at your state behavioral board and knowing the technical aspects of what is required or needed for whatever profession you land on. Also, look at states in which you may want to practice in and see what you may need.

Thank you! I asked some questions above to wigflip about the job market for those with a MA against those with a PsyD or PhD if you could answer. I wonder what field most MA's go in to. Related to the state behavioral board, I looked at mine (NJ) and all I could find was information related to marriage counselors. Again, it is very appreciated.

 

[ideedit]

Sorry to bump this, but this is all I came across in the law section of being a counselor in NJ.

A professional counselor only has to have completed a minimum of 60 graduate semester hours in a planned educational program, which includes a master's degree or doctorate in counseling from a regionally accredited institution of higher education, of which 45 graduate semester hours are distributed in at least eight of the following areas:

(1) Counseling theory and practice;

(2) The helping relationship;

(3) Human growth and development and maladaptive behavior;

(4) Lifestyle and career development;

(5) Group dynamics, processes, counseling, and consulting;

(6) Appraisal of individuals;

(7) Social and cultural foundations;

(8) Research and evaluation;

(9) The counseling profession;


Furthermore, they need to have had had at least three years of supervised full-time counseling experience in a professional counseling setting acceptable to the committee, one year of which may be obtained prior to the granting of the master's degree. The committee shall establish criteria for determining the qualifications and status which may constitute supervised counseling experience.
An applicant may eliminate one year of the required supervised counseling experience by substituting 30 graduate semester hours beyond the master's degree if those graduate semester hours are clearly related to counseling and are acceptable to the committee. In no case, however, may the applicant have less than one year of supervised professional counseling experience after the granting of the master's degree; and finally:

Has passed the National Counselor Examination of the National Board for Certified
Counselors.

Does this seem like normal, run-of-the-mill standards? I only ask for NJ as I live there now, but who knows what will happen in the future...If I am correct with this assumption, I can go to my masters program, get three years of supervised counseling experience (one year that can be obtained while getting my master's) and then pass a exam and open a private practice?

 

[Wyrmcrawler]

Hi Ideedit,
I am very glad that my post was helpful to you. I am going to answer both of your responses in this one large response to the best of my ability.

Let’s answer your first question: I hope this isn't too prying, but what is the general starting salary for someone with a MA in Counseling psych, and is there significant room for improvement? Or does the salary stay pretty much fixed unless having real success with a private practice? Also, would you say the majority of people with this degree ultimately go back for a PhD or PsyD? And what made you choose this path, out of curiosity?

For the first part, pay is really up to where you are working, the demographics, specialty area of practice, and what you personally are ok with being paid for your services. When I was starting out, I made around 30 dollars an hour while on my limited permit. Now, jobs for a fully licensed individual start around 39k-55k a year (a lot depends on experience and any special certifications). Though, I know people that have started around 62k and so on. I have a friend in private practice, licensed as a LMHC, who makes 80 to 130 dollars an hour. This all depends on your skill level, population, business sense, and a host of things. In other words there is money to be made, contrary to the “common” thought on mental health. Not saying that a good living will fall into your lap, however, if you work hard at becoming the best therapist you can be, the money will come.

As for going back and earning a Ph.D. and Psy.D, it is up to the person. If clinical work is really what you want to do a license will be more than adequate. If you are thinking of high V.A positions, becoming a fully tenured professor, and researches are some of your future goals then after your masters and license, you may want to pursue a doctorate. On a semi biased note, the Psy.D is a great degree for clinically orientated individuals. However, you must be wary of what school you go to, and the cost to attend a Psy.D program is a lot.

Why have I gone the path of the LMHC? I wanted to do clinical work and I feel that counseling was the best fit for me. I do want to achieve my Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology eventually down the line, though, for me I have always wanted to work in academia and do clinical work on the side.

Second Question: What scopes of practice in terms of therapy would you say are mostly encompassed by people with a MA in counseling psych vs someone with a PsyD or PhD? Also, why is matching not an issue for those with a MA? Am I wrong in assuming that those with this degree will have more trouble finding a job due to being pitted against PsyD's or PHD's?

According to the research, level of degree and type of degree does not affect significantly the quality or effectiveness of psychotherapy outcomes. The amount of time gaining skill, time practicing, and the ability to create and maintain the therapeutic relationships are the greatest markers of success with clients. Also, not being a “one trick pony” helps with being successful too. In the end, you should be reading research, using evidence based approaches with clients, and always reading up on techniques, seeing presentations, and learning! BECOME A CONSUMER OF RESEARCH!!!!!!!! As for matching, a Master level individual usually finds their own place to gain hours, and finds their own supervisors. APA does the matching approach. Though, they have not enough places for the number of their graduates to match in. While we might have a bigger pain in the beginning, I have not met a peer who cannot find anywhere to gain hours or a supervisor in the long term.

Third Question: Job market for those with a MA against those with a PsyD or PhD if you could answer. I wonder what field most MA's go in to.

The doctorate folks usually are more in administration, academia, and supervisory roles. This does not mean a Master level is barred from these positions, just we are not found commonly in these areas. In the clinical arena, we have “encroached” on all aspects of their scope of practice and in some ways weeded them out. This does not mean that doctorate folks are dying off by any means, or this should persuade you from not reaching for a doctorate.

As for you second post and fourth question:

It looks like a common CACREP, Nationwide standard for counseling programs in Mental Health Counseling and licensure. Just like there are universal standards for APA (Psychologists) and AMA (Physicians) accredited programs and gaining licensure. The 9 areas of competencies are what we, as counselors, have to know and master to practice. It seems the answer to your question, “If I am correct with this assumption, I can go to my master’s program, get three years of supervised counseling experience (one year that can be obtained while getting my master's) and then pass a exam and open a private practice?” is yes. However, it is a long road once you are in it.

Hope this helps again,
Wyrmcrawler

 

[ideedit]

Hi Ideedit,
I am very glad that my post was helpful to you. I am going to answer both of your responses in this one large response to the best of my ability.

Let’s answer your first question: I hope this isn't too prying, but what is the general starting salary for someone with a MA in Counseling psych, and is there significant room for improvement? Or does the salary stay pretty much fixed unless having real success with a private practice? Also, would you say the majority of people with this degree ultimately go back for a PhD or PsyD? And what made you choose this path, out of curiosity?

For the first part, pay is really up to where you are working, the demographics, specialty area of practice, and what you personally are ok with being paid for your services. When I was starting out, I made around 30 dollars an hour while on my limited permit. Now, jobs for a fully licensed individual start around 39k-55k a year (a lot depends on experience and any special certifications). Though, I know people that have started around 62k and so on. I have a friend in private practice, licensed as a LMHC, who makes 80 to 130 dollars an hour. This all depends on your skill level, population, business sense, and a host of things. In other words there is money to be made, contrary to the “common” thought on mental health. Not saying that a good living will fall into your lap, however, if you work hard at becoming the best therapist you can be, the money will come.

I can't find the article I was reading earlier, but I read somewhere that the mean pay for a clinician with a master's in counseling is around $39k for the first year (like you said) and can basically at most max out at low 60k (with the obvious exceptions). I don't remember what the PhD had but I believe it was low 50's for starting with a ceiling at around 70 or so. Man... I'm starting to think I/O psych is a more profitable venture even if it's not what I love...

As for going back and earning a Ph.D. and Psy.D, it is up to the person. If clinical work is really what you want to do a license will be more than adequate. If you are thinking of high V.A positions, becoming a fully tenured professor, and researches are some of your future goals then after your masters and license, you may want to pursue a doctorate. On a semi biased note, the Psy.D is a great degree for clinically orientated individuals. However, you must be wary of what school you go to, and the cost to attend a Psy.D program is a lot.

Research is interesting to me but I need at least 4 more semesters of lab experience before even considering applying to a PhD. The PsyD is looking like something I may consider...

Why have I gone the path of the LMHC? I wanted to do clinical work and I feel that counseling was the best fit for me. I do want to achieve my Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology eventually down the line, though, for me I have always wanted to work in academia and do clinical work on the side.

If you knew you wanted to work in academia, why did you go straight to a Master's? Just curious as this might be the route I take as well

Second Question: What scopes of practice in terms of therapy would you say are mostly encompassed by people with a MA in counseling psych vs someone with a PsyD or PhD? Also, why is matching not an issue for those with a MA? Am I wrong in assuming that those with this degree will have more trouble finding a job due to being pitted against PsyD's or PHD's?

According to the research, level of degree and type of degree does not affect significantly the quality or effectiveness of psychotherapy outcomes. The amount of time gaining skill, time practicing, and the ability to create and maintain the therapeutic relationships are the greatest markers of success with clients. Also, not being a “one trick pony” helps with being successful too. In the end, you should be reading research, using evidence based approaches with clients, and always reading up on techniques, seeing presentations, and learning! BECOME A CONSUMER OF RESEARCH!!!!!!!! As for matching, a Master level individual usually finds their own place to gain hours, and finds their own supervisors. APA does the matching approach. Though, they have not enough places for the number of their graduates to match in. While we might have a bigger pain in the beginning, I have not met a peer who cannot find anywhere to gain hours or a supervisor in the long term.

The last line would be really soothing to my Mom who has worked in hospitals for years and claims not once has she ever encountered a psychologist with a Master's... She is really pushing me to pursue a doctoral degree and seems to be using any anecdotal evidence she can to buttress her claims

Third Question: Job market for those with a MA against those with a PsyD or PhD if you could answer. I wonder what field most MA's go in to.

The doctorate folks usually are more in administration, academia, and supervisory roles. This does not mean a Master level is barred from these positions, just we are not found commonly in these areas. In the clinical arena, we have “encroached” on all aspects of their scope of practice and in some ways weeded them out. This does not mean that doctorate folks are dying off by any means, or this should persuade you from not reaching for a doctorate.

Would you say the most important part of a successful striving private practice, or career in psych in general, is word of mouth? My mom claims that so many people can offer therapy now that it's hard to make a claim of why YOU should be the one delivering it... Sorry for all these 'my mom' posts but as someone who would help support my funds for grad school I have to at least consider her opinions.

As for you second post and fourth question:

It looks like a common CACREP, Nationwide standard for counseling programs in Mental Health Counseling and licensure. Just like there are universal standards for APA (Psychologists) and AMA (Physicians) accredited programs and gaining licensure. The 9 areas of competencies are what we, as counselors, have to know and master to practice. It seems the answer to your question, “If I am correct with this assumption, I can go to my master’s program, get three years of supervised counseling experience (one year that can be obtained while getting my master's) and then pass a exam and open a private practice?” is yes. However, it is a long road once you are in it.

Hope this helps again,
Wyrmcrawler

You are helping so much and I really can't express how grateful I am!!