Really need some advice

[deleted742319]

Hello everyone,

I am a bit lost on what to do right now. I graduated this past May with a bachelor’s in biology. I nearly had my Primary App finished but decided against applying after graduation (which sets me up for a 2nd gap year). I am now considering taking the MCAT a 3rd time, maybe this April before the cycle starts. I plan on submitting on Day-1 as my app is nearly finished. Summary of my profile below:

· cGPA: ~3.45

· sGPA:~3.55

· 1st MCAT: 506 (127/125/128/126)

· 2nd MCAT: 502 (127/122/125/128)

· 250 clinical volunteering

· 800+ hours non-clinical volunteering

· Thousands of hours as a manager in retail (Family Business. This is what I am doing now)

· 1.5 years in paid research (2 poster presentations)

· Helped raise a very large amount of money w/ my father for a charity medical project overseas.

· 80 Hours of shadowing

I was averaging 511-513 on AAMC FLs before my 2nd retake. I am not sure what happened during test day, but I was not confident with how I performed and almost selected VOID at the end of the exam. I decided against it and scored it. Biggest mistake I made. I am a Louisiana resident, and would strongly prefer to attend an in-state MD school. However, I am under the GPA and MCAT median of every MD school. Since graduating, I have been running the family business and helping my father expand (new location opening in a few months). I have also started an online bedding business. I am currently working ~70hrs/wk. I have been volunteering as well, but not much. I am considering taking time off from work to prepare for the third time. Can someone offer some advice? How bad is it to score lower on a second attempt? Will a 510+ help me recover?

Thanks in advance!

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[Goro]

Suggest DO schools

 

[bananafish94]

Unfortunately, the MCAT scores are pretty out of range for MD schools, and I’m not convinced a third would help your case much. At this point, I think applying broadly to DO schools will be your best bet - your GPA is fine and extracurricular look solid.

 

[Mr. Babe]

Also agree......DO schools would be your best bet. No MD school is going to look too hard on a 506, and it's brutal that your 2nd was a 502. Apply DO.

 

[deleted742319]

Thank you for the responses. I scored a 512 on AAMC FL3, and I figured it would best represent my score on test day. Obviously that wasn't the case. Do yall not recommend trying to recover with a 3rd mcat? I read many schools only look at the most recent MCAT. Does that mean my 506 is out of the window or would they possibly average both scores? Thanks

 

[Arturiase]

Your gpa is lowish already that until you start scoring 515+ on the practice tests I wouldn't take the 3rd mcat till then. You have a shot at DO schools, but if you want a decent chance at MDs then you really need to bump up those practice scores. If you consistently imrpove and prepare for the May/June MCAt maybe.

 

[subdermallight]

All things considered, I also think DO school definitely makes the most sense.

But, I mean there is a chance still for MD. Did you go through a prep company for your MCATs? Do some reasesrch and find a good one(s), it’ll cost thousands probably ( and do both volumes of the CARS pack from the AAMC ). Then yes you’d have to stop working to study and lose those wages. Put everything you have into it and come out with a superstar score of 515-520. Then I’m sure if you apply to 35+ well chosen MD schools (thousands of dollars), with solid essays, then you may be able to get into at least 1 allopathic school. But you’d also want to apply DO too so that’s like an additional 15 apps (50 apps all together sounds borderline insane). You probably also want to go above and beyond for your apps, like finding some expert who does this for a living and also paying them a significant sum to review and critique it for you, you will need it perfect. And you also want to either use some interview prep from your school or pay someone for that too.

So if you have like $5,000-$10,000 to spend, I think going all in like that may get you there. It’s crazy because given your GPA and MCAT scores, it doesn’t seem like a 515-520 is in the cards for you and you might just be wasting time and money. But, on the other hand, unless you get lower than a 502, I don’t think you’ll mess up your chances for DO schools. Depends how much time and money you’re willing to risk for a slim chance, and whether you believe you can significantly change something about how you study and how you test in this short period of time.

 

[WHSH_RNtoMD]

Definitely look at several DO schools but also try your state/local MD schools. I have a 504 MCAT and received 2 MD interviews from instate schools.

 

[subdermallight]

Definitely look at several DO schools but also try your state/local MD schools. I have a 504 MCAT and received 2 MD interviews from instate schools.

That's really great to hear. Did you have something unique about your application to compensate?

 

[CandH23]

Did you repeat any AAMC FL from the first time you studied for the mcat? If so, you subconciously can remember the from the last time and artificially inflate your scores.

First find out the reason why CARS is an issue and practice that heavy. Look for strats and what works for you. UWORLD had good practice if you used up AAMC.

Google 300 pg psych/soc document on reddit.
I was avg 126 on my p/s, after I was getting 128/129. Real exam I got a 130. That doc is great.

Shore up weaknesses on chem/phys and bio until you’re consistently hitting 128s on 3rd parties(You already used up the aamcs). Good 3rd parties are altius(own exp), next step(I heard) Section bank is good, I suggest selecting books a la cárte from companies.
Ex. TBR for chem is supposed to be very good.

Bio is really practicing how to process a load of info all at once, quickly. Once you can do that you’re Gucci.

You don’t have to go DO if you don’t want to or Vice versa. Network with your state school now, go to open house, outreach events etc to get your face out there before you apply. Email admissions and asl questions about your profile and how to improve if they’re receptive to those questions. Get that Mcat score you have the ability to get. Also think about taking a few classes to pump up the GPA a bit.

Idk if a 510 will help you recover I think you have to aim at 526 and go from there. Your good on experiences though

 

[candbgirl]

Thank you for the responses. I scored a 512 on AAMC FL3, and I figured it would best represent my score on test day. Obviously that wasn't the case. Do yall not recommend trying to recover with a 3rd mcat? I read many schools only look at the most recent MCAT. Does that mean my 506 is out of the window or would they possibly average both scores? Thanks

It’s sort of silly to think you would score enough to recover. As has been stated numerous times, AMCAS recommends that schools average multiple MCAT scores. Some do some - some don’t but all of your scores are seen by reviewers. And your GPAs are low for MD. You should be good for DO schools. But don’t take the MCAT again. If you go down again it might ruin all of your chances for DO!!

 

[CandH23]

Risk it for the biscuit on the 3rd attempt
Was it test anxiety OP? DO schools are usually more expensive than MDs especially than your state school. A considerable investment into fixing your test/mcat issues would save $ down the line too.
LSU: $31,000/yr
PCOM: $50,000/yr
That’s $76,000 you saved by pumping 2-3k in excellent mcat prep. And if you could live with family you save even more on living expenses. 11k a year living in philly(idk then usual cost up there, just an estimate) x4 =44,000 44,000 +76,000= 120,000 !!

 

[deleted742319]

I did repeat the AAMC FLs, except FL3(512) . That was supposed to be the best indicator on how I would perform, but that wasn't the case. I was a bit anxious during the exam, but nothing too bad. My timing was off during CARS. I found it more difficult than the practice exams, and completely guessed on 2 passages or so.

 

[deleted742319]

I have the complete new TBR set and some AAMC material left. Money isn't a problem though. I don't have rent to pay and have just been saving since graduating.

 

[CandH23]

Great, eat the TBR book and absorb its contents. You are blessed if money isn’t not an issue, do everything you can to get that higher score. Yea repeating exams does nothing, also sometimes ppl have scored lower than FL3 for some reason, I’ve seen it more than a few times, however the psych on fl3 was representative of my actual exam. Get the 300 PG P/S doc too. Timing is the biggest thing to master thats really the foundation because you can know things but taking too long on a Q will mess everything up cause your hurrying through Qs. If the timing is right you can actually reason some things out.
Give each question set that has a certain amount of questions a time limit, so like 5 Qs is 9 minutes, 4 min to read and jot the main idea and 5 min to answer Qs, 6 Qs, 10 minutes, 7Qs, 11 minutes. Then keep a time tally during the exam, it’ll save you.
Also google UWORLD free trial from reddit, questions are good to highlight content gaps and they have hard CARS, it’s kind of demoralizing but grind it
Edited for phone typos.

 

[Kpw101]

Just know that if you really want to get into an MD school, this 3rd retake will make or break you. If it doesn't turn out well you could potentially nuke your chances to DO schools also.

Personally I would apply to DO schools and just run with what I have but it's up to you to decide if the risk is worth it.

 

[subdermallight]

If money is no option I would recommend buying into “A ltius” test prep. You can pay a bunch of money for 10 practice tests and many hours of time with a private tutor. You can’t really go wrong if you do all the work. Like everyone here is saying, this is a make or break test. If money is no option, definitely fork over the cash for some prep that is not self-taught. You want a private tutor. Get the next step tests as well I’d say

 

[Mike Bagwell]

You're wasting your time with the MCAT. From what I have noticed, multiple MCAT attempts are not going to be on your side unless today you were to go from 505 to maybe 512 which tells a different story. You're second score is the nail in the coffin.

On the bright side, you can become a doctor via the DO route with no problems assuming you don't have any other issues with your application.

At my STATE SCHOOL, the dean of admissions would not even look at an application with multiple attempts. I'd imagine that would be the same case at many other allopathic programs.

Just keep in mind that medicine is an all or nothing affair despite what anybody might have you believe. The mere fact that you are "selling beds" and or involved in some other business activities at the moment demonstrates that you are not 100% focused on this doctor thing. My honest advice to you would be to take a step back and re-evaluate YOURSELF and YOUR GOALS instead of the MCAT.

 

[altblue]

I'm sorry to hear about the underperformance. I did much worse on B/B than expected and a bit worse on C/P, so I understand the feeling.

At this point,I'd cut my losses and apply DO. If your GPA was higher I'd entertain another shot at a 508+, but unfortunately it's not. You'd need a 514+ for a fair shot and accounting for the 2 retakes even that would be nowhere close to a guarantee. Keep in mind that a 514 is only the lower bound of a helpful retake, which you haven't really reached yet.

Yes having a DO hurts for academic med, surgical subspecialties and derm but for most this probably doesn't even matter. You'll get to be a doctor making 180k+ a year just like the MD's.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Moving to WAMC

 

[deleted742319]

You're wasting your time with the MCAT. From what I have noticed, multiple MCAT attempts are not going to be on your side unless today you were to go from 505 to maybe 512 which tells a different story. You're second score is the nail in the coffin.

On the bright side, you can become a doctor via the DO route with no problems assuming you don't have any other issues with your application.

At my STATE SCHOOL, the dean of admissions would not even look at an application with multiple attempts. I'd imagine that would be the same case at many other allopathic programs.

Just keep in mind that medicine is an all or nothing affair despite what anybody might have you believe. The mere fact that you are "selling beds" and or involved in some other business activities at the moment demonstrates that you are not 100% focused on this doctor thing. My honest advice to you would be to take a step back and re-evaluate YOURSELF and YOUR GOALS instead of the MCAT.

I am volunteering at a hospice + tutoring HS students. Is it really a red flag that I am working at a family business? The truth is I had an an opportunity to pick up a full time research gig but the family business pays way more, and I was really hoping to save some money before starting school.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

I am volunteering at a hospice + tutoring HS students. Is it really a red flag that I am working at a family business? The truth is I had an an opportunity to pick up a full time research gig but the family business pays way more, and I was really hoping to save some money before starting school.

It's not a red flag. I didn't say it was a red flag. What I was saying is that if you want to go into medicine and become a doctor, you need to commit to that 100%. Despite what others tell you, you can't attempt medicine without it being your sole focus till you are practicing and on your own.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

@Mike Bagwell it seems interesting that multiple attempts would not be looked at. Did that apply for all applicants - like a hypothetical individual with a 3.8 GPA and good ECs that took the MCAT once, got a 500, then reapplied and retook the MCAT, earning a 520?

 

[Mike Bagwell]

@Mike Bagwell it seems interesting that multiple attempts would not be looked at. Did that apply for all applicants - like a hypothetical individual with a 3.8 GPA and good ECs that took the MCAT once, got a 500, then reapplied and retook the MCAT, earning a 520?

Let me make a few things clear. Don't quote me as saying that no school will look at your application with multiple attempts. I wouldn't know the answer to that; I don't think anybody would. I will tell you that at my medical school, a state school on the east coast, there is nobody here in this class with less than a 510 on a single attempt. That is straight from the Dean of Admissions. We don't have anybody in the 520's. Our class falls in that range somewhere.

The admissions committee here will not look at multiple attempts because they don't need to. They have around 3400 applicants for 106 seats and my understanding is all of those applications are competitive. I mean they will look at your application. I don't want to make it seem like if you have multiple attempts that your application gets tossed into an imaginary shredder. I'm saying those multiple attempts will not work in your favor at this school. I personally have never met someone who has gone from a 500 to a 520 so I couldn't comment on that.

To make it personal. When my brother applied to medical school nine years ago, he scored a 24 on his first attempt and 38 on his second. He got four interviews and one acceptance at the last minute to a DO program which was located literally in the middle of nowhere. I was stunned because he also has research with the NIH and was an NSF intern and none of that really mattered to be honest. Even with DO grade forgiveness at that time, he still only got that one program. It's a success for him overall because he's a surgeon today but I remember that whole process stressing everybody in our family out and I remember him feeling like he was a failure until he got that one acceptance right at the end.

Be very wise with the MCAT, that's my advice to you. I think that's the message all adcoms should send to the students. Treat the MCAT like STEP 1 and you will see opportunities open up like flood gates.

 

[bobbitybob]

As someone else said its definitely more so that you didn't show improvement from the 1st time you took the MCAT; that's really the killer here for you. I took the MCAT three times as well but increased my score >5 points each time; I have 3 MD II's including one from an east coast state school. So its definitely doable to have schools look at your app even with multiple attempts provided that you try to excel in other areas. Plus my gpa isn't anything stellar but around the same as the OP. There are so many factors that adcoms take into consideration. If you think you can get you score up, then MAYBE apply with a mix of MD and DO but if not, go DO.

 

[chemdoctor]

It's not a red flag. I didn't say it was a red flag. What I was saying is that if you want to go into medicine and become a doctor, you need to commit to that 100%. Despite what others tell you, you can't attempt medicine without it being your sole focus till you are practicing and on your own.

So he’s not allowed to work at a family business? Every activity he does every second of his life should be related to medicine? People can do other things and still commit to medicine. I have friends that bagged groceries and got in this cycle...

 

[chemdoctor]

As someone else said its definitely more so that you didn't show improvement from the 1st time you took the MCAT; that's really the killer here for you. I took the MCAT three times as well but increased my score >5 points each time; I have 3 MD II's including one from an east coast state school. So its definitely doable to have schools look at your app even with multiple attempts provided that you try to excel in other areas. Plus my gpa isn't anything stellar but around the same as the OP. There are so many factors that adcoms take into consideration. If you think you can get you score up, then MAYBE apply with a mix of MD and DO but if not, go DO.

Good job.

 

[676188]

OP, your scores are fine to apply to LSU Shreveport. I know several people who have gotten in with worse stats. You should definitely consider adding some DO schools to be safe though, but don't count out that state MD just yet.

 

[chemdoctor]

agree with the above OP. Yeah doing worse on the MCAT sucks and it is going to count against you, but I don't think it's the nail in the coffin. Apply STRATEGICALLY (invest in MSAR), to schools whose stats are around the range between your first and second mcat score. You still may get into an MD school with them.

The advice here is good but it's a general rule of thumb. I think you may have a shot at DOs as well as a few low tier MDs... But do keep an open mind to DO schools..

 

[Mike Bagwell]

So he’s not allowed to work at a family business? Every activity he does every second of his life should be related to medicine? People can do other things and still commit to medicine. I have friends that bagged groceries and got in this cycle...

How much brain power was required for bagging the groceries?

 

[chemdoctor]

How much brain power was required for bagging the groceries?

LOL dude people work in retail and stuff. Not everything you do, needs to be 100% dedicated to being a physician... Getting real life work experience, along with practical skills are also valuable on a med school application... @Goro is an adcom and he himself believes that work experience should be mandated for a med school application...

You can have interests outside of medicine... Not every last second of what you do needs to be related to becoming a doctor.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

LOL dude people work in retail and stuff. Not everything you do, needs to be 100% dedicated to being a physician... Getting real life work experience, along with practical skills are also valuable on a med school application... @Goro is an adcom and he himself believes that work experience should be mandated for a med school application...

You can have interests outside of medicine... Not every last second of what you do needs to be related to becoming a doctor.

Medicine requires 100% commitment. If you make it to medical school, you will understand what that means. I don't believe Goro said anything about work experience being "mandated."

 

[AaqDasaq721]

How much brain power was required for bagging the groceries?

One of my college friends who went to UCLA Med worked at Walmart for 3 years to earn some extra cash for schooling and CoL, and he said the adcoms really liked his "grit" and dedication. So while bagging groceries don't require much "brain power," it definitely can't harm you.

And I know what chemdoctor's talking about, there's a post somewhere where Goro says he thinks a year of work experience should be mandatory for premeds.

 

[chemdoctor]

Medicine requires 100% commitment. If you make it to medical school, you will understand what that means. I don't believe Goro said anything about work experience being "mandated."

You should be committed to medicine. It’s not a field you can half ass. But scolding someone simply because they work at a family business is simply ridiculous. OP has clinical volunteering, shadowing etc. in fact I believe adcoms ask “what do you do for fun”? As a way to gauge interests OUTSIDE of medicine and science. I don’t think adcoms want to hear that “all I do is think about medicine, research and reading scientific articles. I don’t do anything else”.

not Every little thing has to be about medicine and getting into medical school...

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Work experience can help; I'd think working as a CNA - especially a hospice CNA - would be a better job from an admissions standpoint than WalMart.

 

[chemdoctor]

Work experience can help; I'd think working as a CNA - especially a hospice CNA - would be a better job from an admissions standpoint than WalMart.

For sure, but it isn't necessary. Not everyone can get a paid clinical position job so lots of people just work a general job. Furthermore, the argument was about how medicine doesn't need to be the 100% commitment for a premed. They can commit to other things and interests outside of medicine