Really Why not universal healthcare ??

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md2bknox

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So I was talking to a Canadian the other day about their healthcare system and I thought it was quite interesting what he had to say in comparing the US to Canadian healthcare . I'm just wonder why we won't go into this type of system. I have spoken to many doctors I find it hard to believe that Universial healthcare would not be successful. These doctors seem drained from the constant paper work, and hoping that they will get paid.

Can someone fill me in as to why we can't try it, and I already asked if there were long waiting times and there isnt, which is my main concern. The Canadian even showed me his card. I thought how awesome, everyone is covered and doctors can worry about patients rather than paperwork . Majority of the rich nations have gone to this system with success. Why not us?? Please don't get me wrong, this guy was not saying that the system is perfect but it seems a heck of a lot more helpful to more people. We could possibly start funding more spots for medical school and residency. We could work on more preventative measures. Just wondering thanks

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1) You should reference some of the many 'universal healthcare' threads that have been belabored over the last few years.

2) I have not come across a single person who is fundamentally opposed to the concept of universal healthcare. The controversy arises in how to implement it in a financially responsible manner (or if it's even feasible). It will probably come from some combination of raising/reallocating taxes, decreasing services (Medicare/Medicaid benefits, physician reimbursement rates, etc), and eliminating waste in the healthcare system... but again the specifics are highly contentious.

3) You're comparing the US to largely socialized nations where healthcare, education, and labor benefits are more heavily federally subsidized at the cost of relatively high taxes. As a predominantly capitalist nation, a lot of people are unwilling to pay higher taxes for what (they believe) are unnecessary expenditures (ie health insurance for someone else).
 
Also..imagine you live in canada and have chronic backpain problem that could be fixed with surgery. Probably take at least 5-6 months to get the procedure... Or you can just come to America and get it the next day.
 
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Basic things to remember:
1. People do not pay for services more often than people do pay. There are just so many people in the US as well. So efforts are to figure out how to stay afloat not how to improve services.
2. The US is a country with a large diversity -- much more than other countries; many different backgrounds and cultures help to develop new ideas but sometimes too much is not good.
 
3) You're comparing the US to largely socialized nations where healthcare, education, and labor benefits are more heavily federally subsidized at the cost of relatively high taxes. As a predominantly capitalist nation, a lot of people are unwilling to pay higher taxes for what (they believe) are unnecessary expenditures (ie health insurance for someone else).

We already pay taxes at comparable rates to those "largely socialized countries" when you take into account the insurance premiums we pay (and they don't) and large out-of-pocket health care costs. Apples to apples, etc. If you add that to the state income and local property taxes, which are usually administered federally in other countries, our overall taxation is near the OECD average. Our system is highly inefficient with far more hidden taxes than you think.


The estimable Bruce Bartlett (Reagan White House economist) has more:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/health-care-costs-and-the-tax-burden/

Looking at taxes alone, the burden in the United States is 25 percent below the O.E.C.D. average, but including the additional health costs Americans pay, the United States is just 4.7 percent below average. In short, a substantial portion of the higher tax burden that Europeans pay is really illusory. They are really just paying their health insurance premiums through their taxes rather than through lower wages, as we do.
 
Do you really want the US government in charge of health care? :eek:
 
Basic things to remember:
1. People do not pay for services more often than people do pay. There are just so many people in the US as well. So efforts are to figure out how to stay afloat not how to improve services.
2. The US is a country with a large diversity -- much more than other countries; many different backgrounds and cultures help to develop new ideas but sometimes too much is not good.

You have not provided any evidence that "diversity" mitigates the possibility of universal healthcare.

America spends so much on healthcare, yet it's still very expensive. This expense stands as a barrier to low income people and the under-served. We need to find a way to lower healthcare costs, or provide access to those who can least afford it. I personally don't like the insurance scheme largely because it's too profit-oriented. A lot of money is spent on administration and less on patient care.

If I were a dictator, I would put a cap on the amount of profit insurance companies could make.
 
We already pay taxes at comparable rates to those "largely socialized countries" when you take into account the insurance premiums we pay (and they don't) and large out-of-pocket health care costs. Apples to apples, etc. If you add that to the state income and local property taxes, which are usually administered federally in other countries, our overall taxation is near the OECD average. Our system is highly inefficient with far more hidden taxes than you think.


The estimable Bruce Bartlett (Reagan White House economist) has more:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/health-care-costs-and-the-tax-burden/

Looking at taxes alone, the burden in the United States is 25 percent below the O.E.C.D. average, but including the additional health costs Americans pay, the United States is just 4.7 percent below average. In short, a substantial portion of the higher tax burden that Europeans pay is really illusory. They are really just paying their health insurance premiums through their taxes rather than through lower wages, as we do.

That's EXACTLY the difference between a capitalist economy and a socialist (no I realize canadians are not socialists (europeans??? debatable)...but I can't find a better word) economy. We have the option to spend our money the way we like; it is not dictated to us. Your references essentially show that neither is superior to the other. In fact, we come out 4.7% ahead, apparently.

P.S. post might have come off as combative, but it's not meant to be. can never tell tone of voice online, ya know?
 
That's EXACTLY the difference between a capitalist economy and a socialist (no I realize canadians are not socialists (europeans??? debatable)...but I can't find a better word) economy. We have the option to spend our money the way we like; it is not dictated to us. Your references essentially show that neither is superior to the other. In fact, we come out 4.7% ahead, apparently.

P.S. post might have come off as combative, but it's not meant to be. can never tell tone of voice online, ya know?

Yea I agree.

People don't realize that this 'universal health care' in Europe comes at a 70% income tax rate for what we would call middle-class families. Why don't people just take the difference between Europe's 70% tax rate and our 30% tax rate and USE IT TO BUY HEALTH COVERAGE?
 
Do you really want the US government in charge of health care? :eek:

I know, right? I much prefer an unaccountable insurance executive tasked with figuring out how not to pay for anything than a government that I elected. And don't get me started on those public roads, the military, the police, firefighters, schools, the FDA... the list goes on! Why can't we just let the rich own and run everything? If they're smart enough to be rich they're sure to run that stuff for us better than we can for ourselves.
 
Yea I agree.

People don't realize that this 'universal health care' in Europe comes at a 70% income tax rate for what we would call middle-class families. Why don't people just take the difference between Europe's 70% tax rate and our 30% tax rate and USE IT TO BUY HEALTH COVERAGE?

Because middle class families in Europe do not pay 70% income taxes and because buying private insurance in the United States costs at least twice as much money as would a discrete tax for insurance (or actual private insurance as is the case in some European countries like Switzerland) because of administrative costs and the lack of centralized negotiation of prices with drug and equipment manufacturers and of course rent-seeking behavior at nearly every level because of profit motive in a utility and inelastic market.

But mostly it's the "Europeans don't actually pay taxes that high" thing.
 
I'm studying abroad in England this semester and I've been able to shadow a few GP's. There is no such thing as a "full exam" here. People come in only when they have problems, stay for fifteen minutes (rarely ever does the GP actually examine the patient--he just asks questions) and get their free prescription. It honestly sounded like a terrible system, but there are some things we could learn:

1. Free prescriptions-well maybe not free, but cheaper. It would help with compliance and make people who would otherwise forgo buying drugs able to do so.
2. More time spent talking to the patient instead of doing tests. The patient can say a lot about history and causes for their symptoms. Definitely more efficient.
3. Fully computerized system. Hopefully switching to EMR will save tons of time/money in administration. It seemed like the docs here could write a note in 5 minutes and have the entire patient history available on a mouse click (as well as past and current prescriptions and other things). That saves a lot of time and means more patients.

But still, people complain about it over here too. Wait times are generally long, folks are bound to a certain geographical area to see GP's (they're not free to see any doctor), and the facilities are generally older and less advanced than ones in the US. Of course we can learn from other healthcare systems, but instituting true universal healthcare in a country of 300 million people with a history of private insurance just wouldn't be pretty.
 
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That's EXACTLY the difference between a capitalist economy and a socialist (no I realize canadians are not socialists (europeans??? debatable)...but I can't find a better word) economy. We have the option to spend our money the way we like; it is not dictated to us. Your references essentially show that neither is superior to the other. In fact, we come out 4.7% ahead, apparently.

Nice try. The point is that we're just as "socialist" as other developed countries; we're just in denial about it. Take for example employer-based health insurance (44% of adults). It's highly tax-subsidized in this country, but individual health insurance is not. The reason for this is mostly a historical accident, but it still stands that the federal government is propping up the private health insurance industry. You can't reduce these complex systems to "capitalist vs. socialist". There's a huge difference between single-payer Medicare-for-all and some of the hybrid health insurance schemes available in Germany or Switzerland.

To put the data cited in the article another way, then, we are more "socialist" than Japan, Australia, and Switzerland, and we are just as "socialist" as Canada. The OECD 2008 average for overall taxation + health costs was 36.4% of GDP. Britain was at 37.2%. We were at 34.7%. Woohoo.

Our tax receipts are also not exactly paying the bills right now either, so that 34.7% number clearly understates the true cost of public services in the United States. (Also, we still leave 15% uninsured. Awesome.)
 
Have you ever heard anything good about these programs?

Yes, Medicare provides healthcare to people who would never be covered by private insurance because it would be financially infeasible.

How many private insurers would take on a 70-yr old obese diabetic as a new enrollee? They would run in the other direction as fast as possible, and without any government mandate, this individual wouldn't never receive coverage.

This is exactly why market-based health insurance doesn't work. So, yes, Medicare is a pretty sweet deal for the elderly.
 
Yes, Medicare provides healthcare to people who would never be covered by private insurance because it would be financially infeasible.

How many private insurers would take on a 70-yr old obese diabetic as a new enrollee? They would run in the other direction as fast as possible, and without any government mandate, this individual wouldn't never receive coverage.

This is exactly why market-based health insurance doesn't work. So, yes, Medicare is a pretty sweet deal for the elderly.
I don't mean conceptually. I mean have you talked to that 70 yo obese diabetic? They almost universally complain about it.
Same with the VA.
 
I don't mean conceptually. I mean have you talked to that 70 yo obese diabetic? They almost universally complain about it.
Same with the VA.


Then I guess I don't understand what you're getting at...for every health insurance scheme imaginable you're going to find someone who complains about it. Nothing will ever be perfect.

Medicare and the VA are definitely not perfect. My point in mentioning these was to simply emphasize that the federal government already runs healthcare for millions of Americans, and I find it quite funny that people simply ignore this fact when criticizing "social medicine" or "government-run healthcare" proposals for the US. It's just ironic.
 
Then I guess I don't understand what you're getting at...for every health insurance scheme imaginable you're going to find someone who complains about it. Nothing will ever be perfect.

Medicare and the VA are definitely not perfect. My point in mentioning these was to simply emphasize that the federal government already runs healthcare for millions of Americans, and I find it quite funny that people simply ignore this fact when criticizing "social medicine" or "government-run healthcare" proposals for the US. It's just ironic.
I'm not talking a singular patient. I'm talking my collective experience participating in the direct healthcare of 100s of VA and 100s of medicare patients.

It's not ironic. The VA and Medicare prove their point.
 
I'm not talking a singular patient. I'm talking my collective experience participating in the direct healthcare of 100s of VA and 100s of medicare patients.

It's not ironic. The VA and Medicare prove their point.

The point is that most seniors and veterans would be virtually uninsurable in any private insurance system. So what if they complain? People complain about every damn thing under the sky, even when they have it good. Do you really think a 70-year-old obese diabetic would prefer a private insurance plan? It'd be great if someone could ask a bunch of patients about this!


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http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2009/May/Meeting-Enrollees-Needs.aspx
 
The point is that most seniors and veterans would be virtually uninsurable in any private insurance system. So what if they complain? People complain about every damn thing under the sky, even when they have it good. Do you really think a 70-year-old obese diabetic would prefer a private insurance plan? It'd be great if someone could ask a bunch of patients about this!


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http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2009/May/Meeting-Enrollees-Needs.aspx

I don't find this a very convincing argument for public insurance. The definition they used for "access problem" is far too narrow, though, regardless, the figures aren't what I would expect.
 
You have not provided any evidence that "diversity" mitigates the possibility of universal healthcare.

America spends so much on healthcare, yet it's still very expensive. This expense stands as a barrier to low income people and the under-served. We need to find a way to lower healthcare costs, or provide access to those who can least afford it. I personally don't like the insurance scheme largely because it's too profit-oriented. A lot of money is spent on administration and less on patient care.

If I were a dictator, I would put a cap on the amount of profit insurance companies could make.
I'm just thinking logically; I don't have paper citations...

Everything you said boils down to... not everyone pays for their services.

I referred to diversity as mainly racial homogeneity and then cultural difference. Look at the WHO list of countries with universal healthcare that work well. Japan and Andorra are on there; I don't remember if South Korea was or remember other countries. US...not so much, but it could be the first; we pretty much are alone in this regard.

think about that last statement you said...
 
I'm just thinking logically; I don't have paper citations...

Everything you said boils down to... not everyone pays for their services.

I referred to diversity as mainly racial homogeneity and then cultural difference. Look at the WHO list of countries with universal healthcare that work well. Japan and Andorra are on there; I don't remember if South Korea was or remember other countries. US...not so much, but it could be the first; we pretty much are alone in this regard.

think about that last statement you said...

I'm not sure what you mean by 'thinking logically' but you still haven't even tried to explain why this would make a single payer system worse than private insurance in the U.S.
 
Definitely not explaining why a single payer system is worse than private insurance.

My second point was to say if you have more people from a similar culture, then chances are high that you'll get more people to think alike and agree. You'll get more output such as the legislation, etc...
 
How do you make something that is finite, very limited, and can only be provided by highly trained professionals as universal?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by 'thinking logically' but you still haven't even tried to explain why this would make a single payer system worse than private insurance in the U.S.

I'm not sure what exactly it means, but the heterogeneous population certainly makes it a much more difficult prospect politically. I'm not sure how or why it would be difficult with respect to actually providing care, though.
 
I dunno, how about you ask one of the dozens of countries that have figured this out already. There are people who study these sorts of things, you know:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/26/6/w717.full

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Compare the huge disparity in both population size and diversity of those countries you are comparing. Also, consider the flaws existent in those systems and how they would be magnified exponentially if applied to the United States.
 
I know, right? I much prefer an unaccountable insurance executive tasked with figuring out how not to pay for anything than a government that I elected. And don't get me started on those public roads, the military, the police, firefighters, schools, the FDA... the list goes on! Why can't we just let the rich own and run everything? If they're smart enough to be rich they're sure to run that stuff for us better than we can for ourselves.

1. Running things for yourself means a free market system, not a government-run system. How is a government-run system you running things for yourself?

2. A business executive is not unaccountable, he has to satisfy his customers. Otherwise they won't but the product he is selling. Unless of course, you were somehow "mandated" to buy a bad product at an exorbitant price you don't want...

3. I'm not sure the list of government services you have provided is a case for government involvement in health care. It's a list of one failure after another. For example, do you really think public schools are better than private schools?
 
I dunno, how about you ask one of the dozens of countries that have figured this out already. There are people who study these sorts of things, you know:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/26/6/w717.full

All other countries have done is trade quality, efficiency, and choice for universal coverage. Why do you think all the best hospitals and research institutes are in America and not Europe or Canda? Why is all the technological innovation coming from America?
 
Compare the huge disparity in both population size and diversity of those countries you are comparing. Also, consider the flaws existent in those systems and how they would be magnified exponentially if applied to the United States.

Germany's a big country, dude. 80 million people is nothing to scoff at. Lots of people with immigrant roots as well. Now you're just making excuses...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Demographics
 
All other countries have done is trade quality, efficiency, and choice for universal coverage. Why do you think all the best hospitals and research institutes are in America and not Europe or Canda? Why is all the technological innovation coming from America?

Mmm.. maybe all that *government* funding from the National Institutes of Health? :D
 
Germany's a big country, dude. 80 million people is nothing to scoff at. Lots of people with immigrant roots as well. Now you're just making excuses...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Demographics

Germans pay twice the tax rate compared to America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Look, you can have universal health care, if you are willing to 1. pay through the nose for it and 2. have a bunch of idiot politicians make your healthcare decisions for you.
 
Mmm.. maybe all that *government* funding from the National Institutes of Health? :D

Frankly, the NIH is not efficient. The biggest tech advances, even in science, come from the private sector. Have you ever heard of the race to sequence the genome? A private company in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the cost sequenced the genome before a massive government program could.
 
Frankly, the NIH is not efficient. The biggest tech advances, even in science, come from the private sector. Have you ever heard of the race to sequence the genome? A private company in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the cost sequenced the genome before a massive government program could.

What does biotech investment have to do with universal health care? If anything, I would think adding 30 million new patients to the insurance rolls would be good for business and would spur innovation in biotechnology. But we digress..
 
What does biotech investment have to do with universal health care? If anything, I would think adding 30 million new patients to the insurance rolls would be good for business and would spur innovation in biotechnology. But we digress..

You brought up the NIH! What are you talking about?!!

Any sort of government intervention is ALWAYS associated with inefficiency and stagnation. People don't understand that universal health care in other countries comes at the price of insanely high taxes and lower quality service. Other countries don't have the kind of quality that we have in America, they don't produce major tech advances, and they have to deal with delays we would find appalling.

Put people in charge of their own health care decisions, so they can buy the highest-quality healthcare they can afford. THAT'S the way to improve healthcare.
 
Germans pay twice the tax rate compared to America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Look, you can have universal health care, if you are willing to 1. pay through the nose for it and 2. have a bunch of idiot politicians make your healthcare decisions for you.

Uh, no. Tax rates /=/ taxation levels. The number you want is "total taxes as share of GDP". Sorry to burst your fantasy, but there's no major country in the world that has twice the taxation level as the United States (Denmark's close though).

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...lett1rev/07economist-bartlett1rev-blog480.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...tt2rev2/07economist-bartlett2rev2-blog480.jpg

My point a few posts up was that we already pay through the nose for our health care (2-3 times as much as most countries, actually). And who do you think makes your healthcare decisions for you now? You? :rofl:
 
I live in Canada and you mentioned we have no wait times.

Are you kidding me? It takes months just to get an MRI. By that time you might have a poorly-healed part of your body or be dead. People would have to pay $800 to go to a private clinic here. So no, I don't know what your friend was talking about when he was saying there are no wait times in Canada, but trust me that there surely are. Universal health care is great and all, but I don't want to paint some rosy picture of Canada's health care system when we have our own share of problems.
 
Uh, no. Tax rates /=/ taxation levels. The number you want is "total taxes as share of GDP". Sorry to burst your fantasy, but there's no major country in the world that has twice the taxation level as the United States (Denmark's close though).

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...lett1rev/07economist-bartlett1rev-blog480.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...tt2rev2/07economist-bartlett2rev2-blog480.jpg

My point a few posts up was that we already pay through the nose for our health care (2-3 times as much as most countries, actually). And who do you think makes your healthcare decisions for you now? You? :rofl:

OK, you are just being difficult. I said tax rates, and I provided a link to tax rates.

The numbers you provided are interesting though as well, since they state that Americans pay a lesser percentage in taxes + private health expenditures than almost all developed countries. Sounds like they should be trying to be more like us.
 
1. Running things for yourself means a free market system, not a government-run system. How is a government-run system you running things for yourself?

2. A business executive is not unaccountable, he has to satisfy his customers. Otherwise they won't but the product he is selling. Unless of course, you were somehow "mandated" to buy a bad product at an exorbitant price you don't want...

3. I'm not sure the list of government services you have provided is a case for government involvement in health care. It's a list of one failure after another. For example, do you really think public schools are better than private schools?
1. I didn't realize that I had suddenly become an insurance company. This is incredible! What am I going to do with this newfound power?! And you're telling me EVERYONE is an insurance company? Remarkable! Seriously, though; only in a Randian utopia can you honestly say that we don't need the government to provide any services because we can just compete with companies ourselves if we don't like it.

2. A business executive is absolutely unaccountable if he provides a service in a market that A) is not subject to the Clayton and Sherman antitrust acts, which insurance companies are not, and so they price-fix and do all the other ultimate ends of a perfectly free market or B) provide services in an inelastic market, which insurance is because there is a limit on supply thanks to the limit in supply of physicians thanks to licensing, the fact that health care is necessary to the survival of the patient, and a bunch of other reasons I don't feel like typing. The bottom line is that insurance is different from all other markets because it doesn't actually provide you with the product you desire, it provides you with cash in return for cash and always at a loss to the public in total.

3. Yes, I do like the fact that everyone has the chance to go to school! I don't give a damn if private schools provide a better education. Even ignoring the self-selection that goes on in private schools, I would rather pay for millions of students to get a sub-par education than see them wallow in illiteracy. Why don't you tell me who would pay for education if not the public. Charities? Maybe corporations could pay for education in return for indentured servitude in adulthood? It's just not in the immediate interests of any particular monied interest to educate children, and yet they all benefit from an educated workforce in the long run. For-profit education necessarily means even more stratified results but with the added 'bonus' of lots of unprofitable students simply going without schooling.

Why don't you try this on for size: Who would build the roads into poor or middle-class residential areas without the government? Who would provide the mail? Having utilities like these available to the poor not only provides them with the opportunity to actually contribute to society by working, but it helps businesses to sell things to them.

Oh yeah, and why would the rich ever pay their private guards or mercenaries to patrol the poor quarters? Why would ANYONE pay for a war?

You brought up the NIH! What are you talking about?!!

Any sort of government intervention is ALWAYS associated with inefficiency and stagnation. People don't understand that universal health care in other countries comes at the price of insanely high taxes and lower quality service. Other countries don't have the kind of quality that we have in America, they don't produce major tech advances, and they have to deal with delays we would find appalling.

Put people in charge of their own health care decisions, so they can buy the highest-quality healthcare they can afford. THAT'S the way to improve healthcare.

This is absolutely positively a canard. It has been proven time and again that there is just as much inefficiency in private industry, sometimes even more because *gasp* without the responsibility to the authority of the public, the people in charge scam and waste as much as they can, running their ship into the ground and jumping off with the spoils. Profit motive is great as long as it's strained through regulations that stop this kind of cannibalistic BS. I'm afraid humans are not perfectly logical Epicurian godlings who always know exactly how to pursue their own interests.

EDIT: I thought I should respond to the second part of this. Besides the fact that fewer people in these countries are dying from treatable illnesses - a metric I would consider more important than even their superior cost-effectiveness - I hate to tell you that our position at the forefront of research is quickly being overtaken. We are still riding on the momentum of the last century in which our universities and our socialist! government programs along with the luck of being across the ocean from World War II and the Iron Curtain created the "brain drain" that put us where we are today. Hell, NASA only worked because we managed to grab up former Nazi scientists (and of course because we paid for it). The fact that our government largesse paid for tons of research that would otherwise be unprofitable is the reason we discovered the atomic bomb and atomic energy, along with innumerable other discoveries that maybe one in a million venture capitalists or charities would pay to research, and yet the common good of performing this seemingly pointless research became clear when we shot ahead of the entire world by nearly every academic and technological metric. Our golden era was also the era of the greatest level of government spending (and, coincidentally, the era of the highest taxes on the rich, the smallest financial sector with the strictest regulations, and the most unionization). Today, why would a scientist want to work in America when he knows his research will be unfunded and he will live a pauper unless he happens to discover something immediately profitable to a corporation? The numbers speak for themselves: tons of foreign students are coming to American universities and simply returning home because they know they'll actually have a job once they get their pHD. A government-funded job. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies continue to lay off research divisions because their potential customers can't afford drugs for rare diseases. I suppose in the purely axiomatic world of free-marketeers our increasingly poor and uneducated nation will simply springboard its way back to the stars with some hard work and elbow grease.

Germans pay twice the tax rate compared to America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Look, you can have universal health care, if you are willing to 1. pay through the nose for it and 2. have a bunch of idiot politicians make your healthcare decisions for you.

I like how your link is to "average personal income tax rate." Of course the United States will have a lower number - a huge percentage of our income goes to a small percentage of our population, and they pay much lower taxes than in other nations. If you were to list median income taxes those numbers would be WAY different. Someone posted the numbers right in this thread that show we are the ones paying through the nose both as individuals and as a nation. If politicians are idiots and they screw up health care, it is because we as a nation elect idiots and we deserve what we get. I'm proud enough of my nation that I'd like to take on that responsibility. If a bunch of corporate barons screw up health care (and they have), we have no recourse except to form our own insurance companies (ahahaha!). I suppose it is still our fault because we refuse to exercise our political power to stop this.

Part of being a republic means that we have power over our own fate. If government were as evil and incompetent as you say it is, why did we even create one after the revolutionary war? Why did we create another when the Articles of Confederation proved insufficient? Why does the preamble of our constitution contain the words "promote the general welfare?" Why was the post office enshrined in our constitution as a government-mandated government-run monopoly? Were at least half of our founding fathers even further to the left than we are today? This is getting pretty tiring.
 
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If there are no profits, pharmaceutical companies, health insurance companies, hospitals, and private practices all cease to exist. so put that idea to rest.

america is the seat of innovation. if we were socialist as well, kiss medical progress goodbye.

Care is expensive here because it is the latest and best, and it's getting better. MRI costs have increased in the last ten years. Well guess what? MRI results have improved too! If you want a 2001 quality MRI, it is dirt cheap nowadays. But you don't want that, you want the 2011 MRI. Those machines cost millions of dollars to develop and build. If nobody anywhere is profiting, there is no money to invest in research. Costs go down, but progress stagnates.

Is anybody correlating capitalism with quality? you should. If you feel compassion for indigents, volunteer at a clinic. Socialism isn't about helping others, it's about controlling others.
 
If there are no profits, pharmaceutical companies, health insurance companies, hospitals, and private practices all cease to exist. so put that idea to rest.

america is the seat of innovation. if we were socialist as well, kiss medical progress goodbye.

Care is expensive here because it is the latest and best, and it's getting better. MRI costs have increased in the last ten years. Well guess what? MRI results have improved too! If you want a 2001 quality MRI, it is dirt cheap nowadays. But you don't want that, you want the 2011 MRI. Those machines cost millions of dollars to develop and build. If nobody anywhere is profiting, there is no money to invest in research. Costs go down, but progress stagnates.

Is anybody correlating capitalism with quality? you should. If you feel compassion for indigents, volunteer at a clinic. Socialism isn't about helping others, it's about controlling others.

No one here has been arguing for socialism - that is, no one has stated that the means of production should be owned entirely by labor instead of a separate class of capital-owners. That being said, some people are asking for the inclusion of health insurance in the public domain. You still have competition in all of the markets you mentioned, and indeed competition in these markets keeps costs, supply, and quality in optimal equilibrium with demand. However, insurance does not work the same way, and competition between insurers does not produce any of the above results. As voters, it is up to us to vote always in our own self-interests and the interests of our nation. Most of the time that means leaving private enterprise alone to do its thing. This is one of the few times where this is not true, and I gave a few examples above of other cases in which it is just not possible for markets to provide for the common welfare.
 
3. Yes, I do like the fact that everyone has the chance to go to school! I don't give a damn if private schools provide a better education. Even ignoring the self-selection that goes on in private schools, I would rather pay for millions of students to get a sub-par education than see them wallow in illiteracy. Why don't you tell me who would pay for education if not the public. Charities? Maybe corporations could pay for education in return for indentured servitude in adulthood? It's just not in the immediate interests of any particular monied interest to educate children, and yet they all benefit from an educated workforce in the long run. For-profit education necessarily means even more stratified results but with the added 'bonus' of lots of unprofitable students simply going without schooling.

Why don't you try this on for size: Who would build the roads into poor or middle-class residential areas without the government? Who would provide the mail? Having utilities like these available to the poor not only provides them with the opportunity to actually contribute to society by working, but it helps businesses to sell things to them.

Oh yeah, and why would the rich ever pay their private guards or mercenaries to patrol the poor quarters? Why would ANYONE pay for a war?

Your post is excessively long, but it goes to show why you can't accept that capitalism works. Just because you don't see a solution outside of government intervention, it doesn't mean that someone more imaginative or ambitious won't. For example, "who would provide the mail?". Uh, FEDEX?

You can't even imagine the possibility of something other than the current insurance system in health care, which is why you've repeatedly used insurance company interchangeably with free market.

Basically, people who need to be constantly taken care of and are afraid to stand on their own feet want bigger government. Adults who can take care of themselves want smaller government.
 
Your post is excessively long, but it goes to show why you can't accept that capitalism works. Just because you don't see a solution outside of government intervention, it doesn't mean that someone more imaginative or ambitious won't. For example, "who would provide the mail?". Uh, FEDEX?

You can't even imagine the possibility of something other than the current insurance system in health care, which is why you've repeatedly used insurance company interchangeably with free market.

Basically, people who need to be constantly taken care of and are afraid to stand on their own feet want bigger government. Adults who can take care of themselves want smaller government.

So you're saying the signatories of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were 'afraid to stand on their own feet' because they didn't wait around for FedEx? By the way, both UPS and FedEx are still less cost-effective than the USPS.

Why don't you come up with solutions that don't involve government, then? What I am advocating is well attested and will certainly save both money and lives. If that's not good enough for you and you would rather see the current system or some variation thereon continue to run rough shod over your fellow human beings until someone comes up with a solution that doesn't involve government just for the sake of it, then I really don't know what to say to that.
 
So you're saying the signatories of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were 'afraid to stand on their own feet' because they didn't wait around for FedEx? By the way, both UPS and FedEx are still less cost-effective than the USPS.

Why don't you come up with solutions that don't involve government, then? What I am advocating is well attested and will certainly save both money and lives. If that's not good enough for you and you would rather see the current system or some variation thereon continue to run rough shod over your fellow human beings until someone comes up with a solution that doesn't involve government just for the sake of it, then I really don't know what to say to that.

Point is, you couldn't imagine an entity other than the government taking care of the mail. There are two large private companies that can. And what do you mean, they are "less cost-effective", USPS consistently operates at a loss.

Regarding healthcare, I do have a solution that doesn't involve government. Let people buy the best quality healthcare they can afford. Let healthcare providers compete to provide the cheapest and highest-quality care they can. This is no different than what happens for cosmetic surgeries, where we've seen procedures become much more affordable and accessible.
 
Point is, you couldn't imagine an entity other than the government taking care of the mail. There are two large private companies that can. And what do you mean, they are "less cost-effective", USPS consistently operates at a loss.

Regarding healthcare, I do have a solution that doesn't involve government. Let people buy the best quality healthcare they can afford. Let healthcare providers compete to provide the cheapest and highest-quality care they can. This is no different than what happens for cosmetic surgeries, where we've seen procedures become much more affordable and accessible.

The USPS does not operate at a loss. It is required to pay for its pension fund ahead of time in order to avoid problems like those that automobile manufacturers (and soon many local and state governments) face, but the fact that it is required by law means it looks far worse off than its competitors. In any event, I will concede this point. In the modern world, shipping can be fully liberalized, but it is incredibly myopic to state that the creation of the USPS was not essential to our young nation.

Your solution is absurd, by the way. By 'healthcare providers,' I'm going to assume you mean doctors and not insurance companies, because as I've outlined before insurance doesn't work that way. Unless we were to remove the requirement for a license to practice medicine there is no way to increase the supply of treatment beyond creating more schools and waiting several years down the pipeline, which means the price cannot drop. Even supposing supply were not fixed, demand in this case means more than just the desire for a better widget, it means risking your survival because you can only afford procedures performed with 40-year-old equipment and can only buy off-patent drugs. Furthermore, any doctor who provides care for these patients will receive far, far less compensation than their peers who will spend their limited time on rich or insured patients. Of course, your solution is literally nothing but the status quo and the assumption that, by some miracle, the trend of increased cost in care and decreased population coverage is going to reverse itself. I think it's quite telling that your example is cosmetic surgeries - there may never be a cure for ALS without government-funded labs and government provision of care, but at least we'll have the lifestyle lift for a pittance.

Furthermore, I think I need to state it more obviously for you: I have nothing against the market. Markets work most of the time. If you think markets work every time then you are simply uneducated on the subject or outright deluded. If the market can come up with a better solution than the government, then it should obviously be implemented instead, but I hate to tell you this is not always possible. It's stupid to refuse a good solution just because you hope for a better one that is more 'ideologically pure,' especially if it means people will suffer in the interim.

And really, how pure do you want things to be? Anarcho-capitalism? A total return to nature? Would you hand out a Ring of Gyges to each and every person because it maximizes freedom? The fact that you have such an aversion to government intervention in any area while also choosing not to address most of my points (like how police or roads or the military or education would work without government, or how our best years were those when our government expanded the most) tells me you rather enjoy decrying authority. Perhaps - and this might seem like a crazy and objectionable idea to you - there is an amount of government participation in our lives that is just right for us, and it just might be a bit more than there is right now. Or maybe we should all move into caves, since society is a prison and our value to one another should be measured in the possibility of exploitation.
 
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The problem, Cornu, is that even if there are some benefits to government-run healthcare (and there certainly are, but by no means is it some kind of utopia that you're painting it to be), some people (myself included) are simply opposed to the idea of the government running healthcare. It's a difference between thinking that the government should be a barebones institution versus the government being a provider of as many services as feasible. In very few cases would I prefer that the government do something that the private sector is equally capable of doing, EVEN, again, if the government-provided service comes with some advantages that the private sector is, as of yet, unable to provide.

In my case you can show me as many lovely studies as you want, but unless government healthcare can fundamentally change our society, I won't support it on principle.
 
The problem, Cornu, is that even if there are some benefits to government-run healthcare (and there certainly are, but by no means is it some kind of utopia that you're painting it to be), some people (myself included) are simply opposed to the idea of the government running healthcare. It's a difference between thinking that the government should be a barebones institution versus the government being a provider of as many services as feasible. In very few cases would I prefer that the government do something that the private sector is equally capable of doing, EVEN, again, if the government-provided service comes with some advantages that the private sector is, as of yet, unable to provide.

In my case you can show me as many lovely studies as you want, but unless government healthcare can fundamentally change our society, I won't support it on principle.

It's fine to say you're against it on principle, and I can even understand why. I used to be a hardcore libertarian for a long time. The problem is when people say there are no benefits, or that simply being run by the government will make things worse. I don't think the government should run things that the private sector is equally capable of doing, btw. I also don't think single payer would be utopian, especially since a lot of our problems stem from our shortage of doctors and the poor health choices of our population.
 
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