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[Ortho-ftd]

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[dentistrydmd]

Sounds like you’re a good candidate. I think if you are willing to spend $$ you can get into one of the more expensive programs for sure

 

[Ortho-ftd]

Sounds like you’re a good candidate. I think if you are willing to spend $$ you can get into one of the more expensive programs for sure

Thanks so much for your response, I am willing to spend $$ for good program but not Gerogia one..

 

[dentistrydmd]

Thanks so much for your response, I am willing to spend $$ for good program but not Gerogia one..

Because you are international I would apply strategically and more widely than the average person. This will greatly increase your chances. You may even consider visiting some programs if they will allow you to

 

[mmc12]

You need to make sure you are aware of which programs don't take international students because a lot of programs flat out don't accept them. I know the Georgia program does, though you said you don't wanna apply to it

 

[gryffindor]

Do you have NBDE 1 and/or NBDE 2 scores? Otherwise I don't see why a program would select you over a US grad based on the rest of your stats alone. Many US grads have similar credentials. You may get lucky and get accepted somewhere for ortho residency, but your chances will likely be much better if you do an IDP first. If fees are not an issue and you really want to see if you will get in, I would say apply to every program in the US. The only ones you should not apply to are the ones where they almost never take an international resident. This should be easy to figure out by looking at their current residents and recent alumni and researching what their educational backgrounds are.

 

[blablabla1]

Granted I am a US citizen and went to a state dental school, but I had very weak stats for an ortho applicant and matched to a 2 year program and received 5 total interviews. Interviewing widely is key. If you want me to go more in depth about what I did to stand out, feel free to PM me. Not sure if I’ll be totally helpful for your circumstances (international student), but it’s worth a try

 

[Ortho-ftd]

Granted I am a US citizen and went to a state dental school, but I had very weak stats for an ortho applicant and matched to a 2 year program and received 5 total interviews. Interviewing widely is key. If you want me to go more in depth about what I did to stand out, feel free to PM me. Not sure if I’ll be totally helpful for your circumstances (international student), but it’s worth a try

Hey thanks so much!

 

[gryffindor]

I don’t want to go for the IDP program because I do not understand the point of reading and learning exactly the same thing that I did in my dental school, during my internship, and during the NBDE preparation. Granted I do not have patient exposure in the USA, but IDP does not have enough patient volume, most of the people I talked to barely did one or two RCTs after spending 250-300k learning what they exactly knew. They would work for community and FQHCs after graduation to gain patient exposure.

Ortho won't still be taught in depth during the IDP, it is very different from general practice, even the nomenclature system is different.
When something does not add value to my current knowledge and future goals but only to my student loan, I do not understand why schools prefer it.

I totally underestand. I will send you a message.

 

[charlestweed]

Thanks so much for your response, I am willing to spend $$ for good program but not Gerogia one..

If money is not an issue, then why not Georgia? It's an accredited program. In the end, you will become a legit orthodontist. If you plan to practice in the US, none of the employers will care where you get your ortho certificate from. They only care whether you can produce for them or not. It’s not the school that helps you become a good clinician. It’s not the length of the training (2 years vs 3 years) that helps you become a good clinician either. You can learn to become a good orthodontist at any program. There are a lot of good books and journals that you can read on your own spare time. An ortho certificate is just a piece of paper that allows to advertise your practice as a practice that is "limited to ortho.”

 

[Ortho-ftd]

If money is not an issue, then why not Georgia? It's an accredited program. In the end, you will become a legit orthodontist. If you plan to practice in the US, none of the employers will care where you get your ortho certificate from. They only care whether you can produce for them or not. It’s not the school that helps you become a good clinician. It’s not the length of the training (2 years vs 3 years) that helps you become a good clinician either. You can learn to become a good orthodontist at any program. There are a lot of good books and journals that you can read on your own spare time. An ortho certificate is just a piece of paper that allows to advertise your practice as a practice that is "limited to ortho.

I am pretty sure I do not need to explicitly mention here why not "Georgia School of Orthodontics".
Since you are an Orthodontist yourself, I believe you value your career, education and dream more than regarding it as a mere "advertisement"

 

[charlestweed]

I am pretty sure I do not need to explicitly mention here why not "Georgia School of Orthodontics".
Since you are an Orthodontist yourself, I believe you value your career, education and dream more than regarding it as a mere "advertisement"

Yup, I've practiced ortho for nearly 20 years and I am telling you that it doesn't matter where you get your certificate from. It's just a job......a dream job for me. I chose ortho because it pays well and allows me to have an awesome lifestyle. I went to a cheap no name public ortho program and I don't feel my clinical skills are inferior to those of my colleagues who went to "famous" programs.

 

[Ortho-ftd]

Yup, I've practiced ortho for nearly 20 years and I am telling you that it doesn't matter where you get your certificate from. It's just a job......a dream job for me. I chose ortho because it pays well and allows me to have an awesome lifestyle. I went to a cheap no name public ortho program and I don't feel my clinical skills are inferior to those of my colleagues who went to "famous" programs.

You answered yourself, Georgia is neither cheap, nor famous
It is the most expensive program and I won't be able to retrieve ROI in 10 years, I would be better off continuing my current job and getting a doctorate instead. It will be much less stressful - This theory is only for Georgia, also I don't think I will go to USC either, because of the costs..

 

[charlestweed]

You answered yourself, Georgia is neither cheap, nor famous
It is the most expensive program and I won't be able to retrieve ROI in 10 years, I would be better off continuing my current job and getting a doctorate instead. It will be much less stressful - This theory is only for Georgia, also I don't think I will go to USC either, because of the costs..

You asked for an advice and I offered mine. You don't have to follow it. I've seen people who were picky and only applied to a few programs....and then had to reapply because they didn’t get in. The #1 guy in my class only applied to 5 programs and he didn’t get in to his own school's ortho program, Ucla. When he reapplied, he got accepted to a very expensive out of state program (Indiana).

 

[mmc12]

You asked for an advice and I offered mine. You don't have to follow it. I've seen people who were picky and only applied to a few programs....and then had to reapply because they didn’t get in. The #1 guy in my class only applied to 5 programs and he didn’t get in to his own school's ortho program, Ucla. When he reapplied, he got accepted to a very expensive out of state program (Indiana).

How important is the actual clinical experience you get in the ortho programs? I know there are some programs where some residents might not have an impacted canines case, or cleft case, functional appliance or TAD experience. Would this really affect their ability to work as orthodontists when they graduate or will they eventually catch up in private practice?

 

[gryffindor]

How important is the actual clinical experience you get in the ortho programs? I know there are some programs where some residents might not have an impacted canines case, or cleft case, functional appliance or TAD experience. Would this really affect their ability to work as orthodontists when they graduate or will they eventually catch up in private practice?

If you’re not getting clinical experience, then what exactly are you doing in residency?

 

[charlestweed]

How important is the actual clinical experience you get in the ortho programs? I know there are some programs where some residents might not have an impacted canines case, or cleft case, functional appliance or TAD experience. Would this really affect their ability to work as orthodontists when they graduate or will they eventually catch up in private practice?

You are not going to become a good clinician from starting only 50-60 new cases at an ortho program….and another 30-40 transferred cases that you get from your big sib. I see more patients in one day (80-100 patients) at my practice than what you see during your 2-yr residency. School only teaches you basic stuff like bracket placements, wire bending techniques, ortho tx mechanics etc. You can learn most of these basic stuff from reading books. The most important part of ortho is diagnosis and tx planning. And the only way for you to master this clinical skill is to treat as many patients as possible. Corp office is a good place to learn because they have a lot of patients. You learn from our own mistakes. You learn how to treat cases that were started by other orthodontists. You learn how to fix the mistakes that other orthos made. You learn from other orthodontists. You also learn from your assistants, who assist other orthodontists at the corp.

 

[dentmass]

This is going to be an honest statement like you wanted. If you want to be an orthodontist, then it shouldn't matter to you where you go as long as you get in even if its Georgia. You may see the clinical side of things as being weaker, but international education isn't standarized and A LOT of places provide a very weak basic science eduation. What country you are from matters too. That is why your education is seen as inferior to a US graduates where people know the curriculum. To be perfectly honest, noone is going to care about your home country stuff. They know next to nothing about what it means to be an orthodontist or even a dentist in your country. (The academic requirements to be a dentist are much lower in most countries compared to the US too).

Your best chance is to do IDP. If you are ruling this out, then apply and pray. You may get lucky but US grads struggle getting in still. The fact that you are reapplying means that you've tried and weren't successful with the stats you have. The number of US grad applicants applying to specialties is increasing year to year. There is almost no reason why they would take you over a US grad with similar or lower stats because they would know what they are getting: a US educated dentist. That is what advantage the IDP would provide you along with letters of rec from faculty at a US dental school some of whom would be orthodontists. All of this would strengthen your application. The IDP is to create a stronger application through letters of rec, networking, etc. Plus it may give you a leg up at the ortho program at your IDP. With your rank of top 3 at an unknown international school with unknown academic standards and clinical standards, you could be the brightest brick in a school of bricks for all they know, but if you were to be top 3 in a US program, now that would be seen as an achievement by programs.

608 ortho applicants last year. 332 matched. 32 international matched.
400 international applicants for phase 1 to ortho, perio, prosth, canadian GPR, anesthesia and 312 unmatched.
Chance are just low. I would suspect most of the 32 matched to some very expensive, unknown ortho programs. If you're claiming you want the best education, then the only way to match a "top" ortho program is IDP for a shot.

 

[gryffindor]

I agree with @dentmass. Patient exposure is not what is holding you back. Ortho programs could care less how experienced you are in crowns and implants. They know the majority of applicants have almost no exposure to clinical orthodontics since ortho is barely taught at the dental school level in the US. You mentioned your CDE credits but they won't care about that either. The other thing about doing an IDP is that it will show you are serious about your education in the US. It's why for US grads who don't match into ortho as seniors, it's recommended to do a GPR and get that on your resume rather than go straight into practice. The GPR/AEGD keeps you in the educational environment. I picked my GPR because it had an ortho component and I feel that really helped my application because the orthodontic attendings from the GPR wrote me my letters.

Also ortho programs don't care about how much in student loans their applicants have. There are ortho residents regularly graduating with $600K+ in loans.

Since the NBDE 1/2 are now pass/fail, programs have lost one main filter they used to have to quickly sort through the applicants. Anyone with a 70 or low 80 was not going to be looked at, the mid-80s may have gotten a look on a second round of sorting, even the low 90s were not looked at until all the high 90s had been looked at first. So the P/F is unfortunately not helping you either.

 

[Ortho-ftd]

Thanks, @dentmass @gryffindor @charlestweed. I guess I never thought about it this way.
Getting in definitely matters at this point.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

I'm in a similar boat myself. FTD, got the new INDBE with very little shadowing experience, about 160 hours ish and applying again this year.