Reasonable approach to Rad Onc for someone who loves field but is aware of job market?

[deleted947887]

Could you further elaborate on doing a full medicine residency prior to Rad/Onc? Would that be in the event that you needed a backup plan? Interesting thought though, but I guess that would end up lengthening your training by 2 yrs.

You're not lengthening your training if you really think about it.

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[DucoNonducor]

You're not lengthening your training if you really think about it.

This is actually how things turned out for me. I went through a medicine residency and later decided to go back and do Rad/Onc. I really enjoyed medicine but did not find medical oncology as appealing as radiation oncology. Seeing some of the posts here is definitely eye-opening about the job market. I've had several co-residents who landed hospitalist positions making 250K-300K working 6 months out of the year. I also know cardiology/pulmonary fellows who are moonlighting while in training and able to bring in close to 200K since they are boarded in internal medicine. I do not regret moving over to rad/onc despite realizing that the glory days may be behind us. Definitely plan on keeping medicine as a backup plan in the event that the job market falls apart of the next 10-15 yrs.

 

[deleted947887]

This is a smart, practical, respectable, approach. Makes you come to the table strong. Kudos to you. I still believe, as you pointed out, the IM market is better. Financially, geographically, and with less burden of training (2 years less and easier to get boarded...real clinical boards, not esoteric biology and physics nonsense). Heck, if you told me to do 2 more years of IM, I would've done it. That's really the best advice I can give to anyone thinking about this field. If you really are into rad onc, do an IM residency (literally one more year of real work on top of your intern year...3rd year is a cake walk), if you're still in love with rad onc after that, by all means apply. But at least you have something to fall back on and no greedy chair, PD, Kachnic or Wallner, can screw you over. That, to me, is respectable.

This is actually how things turned out for me. I went through a medicine residency and later decided to go back and do Rad/Onc. I really enjoyed medicine but did not find medical oncology as appealing as radiation oncology. Seeing some of the posts here is definitely eye-opening about the job market. I've had several co-residents who landed hospitalist positions making 250K-300K working 6 months out of the year. I also know cardiology/pulmonary fellows who are moonlighting while in training and able to bring in close to 200K since they are boarded in internal medicine. I do not regret moving over to rad/onc despite realizing that the glory days may be behind us. Definitely plan on keeping medicine as a backup plan in the event that the job market falls apart of the next 10-15 yrs.

 

[DucoNonducor]

This is a smart, practical, respectable, approach. Makes you come to the table strong. Kudos to you. I still believe, as you pointed out, the IM market is better. Financially, geographically, and with less burden of training (2 years less and easier to get boarded...real clinical boards, not esoteric biology and physics nonsense). Heck, if you told me to do 2 more years of IM, I would've done it. That's really the best advice I can give to anyone thinking about this field. If you really are into rad onc, do an IM residency (literally one more year of real work on top of your intern year...3rd year is a cake walk), if you're still in love with rad onc after that, by all means apply. But at least you have something to fall back on and no greedy chair, PD, Kachnic or Wallner, can screw you over. That, to me, is respectable.

I agree with you in regards to third year being significantly easier. Most of us who are willing to moonlight can easily double the PGY-3 salary. I attended the ARRO session at ASTRO and could sense the tension in the room especially when Kachnic attempted to explain what took place during this past year's exams. I can't see myself doing anything else asides oncology. I've heard of Rad/Oncs who are boarded in IM practicing both (inpatient onc hospitalist + outpatient Rad/onc) and may have to think about that route if the market gets worse before it gets better. I've grown numb to overnight call at this point in life and wouldn't mind it in order to reach financial independence.

 

[DukeNukem]

I stopped posting for a bit because there was a really great sounding job opening from one of the SDNers practices. It reminds me of the kind of jobs that used to exist 10-15 years ago. But, I don't think that job is going to happen, so I'm back.

What does a typical "non-compete" look like these days? Defined by city or county or x miles (how many miles and a radius?) or "drive time"? Also does it include just were you work or all satellites of the academic center (so if it's I don't know 10 miles from each center but they have multiple centers spread every 25-50 miles then the no-compete is literally a multiple hundred square mile area?)

Where I trained it was the county that the main center was located in plus every surrounding county.

Where I work now it's the main center plus every satellite (regardless of whether you ever worked there) with a 15 mile radius for each.

Both are for two years.

Also what's up with the contract being renewed annually? Is that really happening (and if so does that mean they can let you go if the private practice they just acquired and made a satellite for which they hired you sees patient volume drop or only for just cause)?

Yes and yes. What I've seen is if you don't kiss the *** of the adminsitration, they find some reason to not renew the contract no matter how technically good and productive you are. They will still enforce non-compete even if they fire you. I've seen this multiple times now, and had it threatened to me. I can't lose my job though or I would have nowhere to go, so I beg and plead and take whatever abuse I'm given. This isn't what I expected when I became a physician.

The issue with some of these non-competes is that it still holds if they cut your salary. They can cut your salary in half and you have very little recourse. You cant go to a competitor in your area and with the job market, the way it is, you may have to go across the country.

Indeed. This is happening here. Although salaries weren't cut by half, but I've seen 25%. Also a good scheme is to hire people at one number and then never give a pay raise.

A very important thing that everyone applying for jobs should be aware of: Demand that your contract state that if your employer terminates your contract without cause (almost all have a 90 day termination clause either party can execute without cause), then the non-compete is null and void. You would think this would be automatic, but it's not.

This post assumes that you have a choice. All contracts were given to me as "take it or leave it". Even the most simple/basic negotiation was reponded with "good luck elsewhere".

 

[deleted18755]

I stopped posting for a bit because there was a really great sounding job opening from one of the SDNers practices. It reminds me of the kind of jobs that used to exist 10-15 years ago. But, I don't think that job is going to happen, so I'm back.



Where I trained it was the county that the main center was located in plus every surrounding county.

Where I work now it's the main center plus every satellite (regardless of whether you ever worked there) with a 15 mile radius for each.

Both are for two years.



Yes and yes. What I've seen is if you don't kiss the *** of the adminsitration, they find some reason to not renew the contract no matter how technically good and productive you are. They will still enforce non-compete even if they fire you. I've seen this multiple times now, and had it threatened to me. I can't lose my job though or I would have nowhere to go, so I beg and plead and take whatever abuse I'm given. This isn't what I expected when I became a physician.



Indeed. This is happening here. Although salaries weren't cut by half, but I've seen 25%. Also a good scheme is to hire people at one number and then never give a pay raise.



This post assumes that you have a choice. All contracts were given to me as "take it or leave it". Even the most simple/basic negotiation was reponded with "good luck elsewhere".

Are you sure that if your employer cuts your salary by some ridiculous amount for no apparent reason or literally doesn't renew your contract because of a drop in patient volume due to competition or whatever (not fire you for just cause) that the non-compete (which encompasses a multiple county area) still holds? If that's the case and another practice in the area hires you what happens? You and/or the new employer can be sued? (and if so for how much . . . like a year's salary or 10 million dollars?).

I've also heard second or third hand of somebody "buying out" of a non-compete, but I'm not aware of a contract ever having a non-compete in it with a stipulation that it could be "bought out" for x dollars.

Does this exist in any other field like law or business?

I am totally clueless on this matter since non-competes weren't a thing that long ago (or the employer tried to sneak it in there but then you remembered that guy at the ARRO talk telling you to make sure it was removed, which it was, and in any event it was a reasonable radius from a single center not essentially banning you from an entire huge city or multi-county region) and am asking out of curiosity but I'm sure there are people who view this forum that would appreciate this information from knowledgeable sources.

 

[Gfunk6]

Are you sure that if your employer cuts your salary by some ridiculous amount for no apparent reason or literally doesn't renew your contract because of a drop in patient volume due to competition or whatever (not fire you for just cause) that the non-compete (which encompasses a multiple county area) still holds? If that's the case and another practice in the area hires you what happens? You and/or the new employer can be sued? (and if so for how much . . . like a year's salary or 10 million dollars?).

I think the key point to understand here is that non-competes are really not about what is legal, moral or ethical. It is simply a method to modulate behavior by using money as the hammer.

No matter how righteous your cause or immoral your employer, no single individual has the financial resources to go against an academic medical center. They will bury you in lawyers, legal fees and endless bureaucracy.

 

[w00tz]

Are you sure that if your employer cuts your salary by some ridiculous amount for no apparent reason or literally doesn't renew your contract because of a drop in patient volume due to competition or whatever (not fire you for just cause) that the non-compete (which encompasses a multiple county area) still holds? If that's the case and another practice in the area hires you what happens? You and/or the new employer can be sued? (and if so for how much . . . like a year's salary or 10 million dollars?).

I've also heard second or third hand of somebody "buying out" of a non-compete, but I'm not aware of a contract ever having a non-compete in it with a stipulation that it could be "bought out" for x dollars.

Does this exist in any other field like law or business?

I am totally clueless on this matter since non-competes weren't a thing that long ago (or the employer tried to sneak it in there but then you remembered that guy at the ARRO talk telling you to make sure it was removed, which it was, and in any event it was a reasonable radius from a single center not essentially banning you from an entire huge city or multi-county region) and am asking out of curiosity but I'm sure there are people who view this forum that would appreciate this information from knowledgeable sources.

The most reasonable non-compete I've seen is 5 mile radius and 1 year, otherwise $250k buyout. My understanding is that a reasonable radius depends on your location - in a town in the middle of nowhere, you would expect a larger radius, but smaller radius in NYC. But like GFunk said, the energy and money needed to fight it in court may not be worth it.

 

[deleted18755]

The most reasonable non-compete I've seen is 5 mile radius and 1 year, otherwise $250k buyout. My understanding is that a reasonable radius depends on your location - in a town in the middle of nowhere, you would expect a larger radius, but smaller radius in NYC. But like GFunk said, the energy and money needed to fight it in court may not be worth it.

Interesting: I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of a set dollar amount written into a contract like that.

I also agree 5 miles is very reasonable (almost too reasonable . . . why even have one if it's just 5 miles but like you said 5 miles in Manhattan is very different than 5 miles in the country).

It's almost criminal that they would but a radius around every satellite, even centers one has never even worked in other than to maybe cover here and there, especially if they have multiple satellites spaced out so cumulatively it's encompassing such a ridiculous area. Nothing is more ridiculous than the county where the satellite or even single center is located plus adjacent counties . . . in some parts of the country that's literally damn near 100 miles end to end (and counties outside of those surrounding counties probably have more cows or other livestock than people!)

 

[taserlaser]

Interesting: I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of a set dollar amount written into a contract like that.

I also agree 5 miles is very reasonable (almost too reasonable . . . why even have one if it's just 5 miles but like you said 5 miles in Manhattan is very different than 5 miles in the country).

It's almost criminal that they would but a radius around every satellite, even centers one has never even worked in other than to maybe cover here and there, especially if they have multiple satellites spaced out so cumulatively it's encompassing such a ridiculous area. Nothing is more ridiculous than the county where the satellite or even single center is located plus adjacent counties . . . in some parts of the country that's literally damn near 100 miles end to end (and counties outside of those surrounding counties probably have more cows or other livestock than people!)

I only hope for those that are signing new contracts that there are stipulations that the radius doesn’t include new acquired practices. Can you imagine a situation where someone agrees to a non compete, but then while employed, their practice merges/gets bought out and suddenly there are [many] more satellite campuses in network. And then due to the acquisition, their position gets “surplused”. That could be a real serious problem trying to get out of that situation.

 

[w00tz]

I only hope for those that are signing new contracts that there are stipulations that the radius doesn’t include new acquired practices. Can you imagine a situation where someone agrees to a non compete, but then while employed, their practice merges/gets bought out and suddenly there are [many] more satellite campuses in network. And then due to the acquisition, their position gets “surplused”. That could be a real serious problem trying to get out of that situation.

Yes, I definitely stipulated in mine that practices/locations acquired through mergers would not be included in the non-compete without my consent/agreement.

 

[medgator]

I stopped posting for a bit because there was a really great sounding job opening from one of the SDNers practices. It reminds me of the kind of jobs that used to exist 10-15 years ago. But, I don't think that job is going to happen, so I'm back

.

$450k starting, willing to take BE candidate.


Radiation Oncologist

I bet they'll start a "seasoned" BC candidate at $500k+

 

[seper]

"high performing culture" - is that code for intense pursuit of technical side of reimbursement?

$450k starting, willing to take BE candidate.


Radiation Oncologist

I bet they'll start a "seasoned" BC candidate at $500k+

 

[medgator]

"high performing culture" - is that code for intense pursuit of technical side of reimbursement?

Looks like they are hospital based per description. Could mean they are still busy on the pro side

 

[Irradi8or]

The most reasonable non-compete I've seen is 5 mile radius and 1 year, otherwise $250k buyout. My understanding is that a reasonable radius depends on your location - in a town in the middle of nowhere, you would expect a larger radius, but smaller radius in NYC. But like GFunk said, the energy and money needed to fight it in court may not be worth it.

Yes, $250K or 1 year if practicing within 5 miles of one's practicing sites (not even all sites within the practice) is the best I've seen. In fact, it's to the detriment of the practice, since $250K doesn't cover costs of getting a new physician to replace the physician who resigns and then competes against you right next door.

 

[Radz08]

"high performing culture" - is that code for intense pursuit of technical side of reimbursement?

Probably due to location (Somewhere in Iowa). That location can be a tough sell to many.

 

[medgator]

Very nice salary plus bonuses if you can tolerate those winters

'radiation OR oncology OR opening OR in OR nthern OR new OR yk OR STATECODE:"NY"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,430 'radiation OR oncology OR opening OR in OR nthern OR new OR yk OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

 

[Old rad onc]

I have a part time opening in so cal. It may lead to a partnership track depending on ability in the 3A’s and how a big HMO contract goes. Fax CV’s to 805-485-2774 or email to [email protected]

 

[Neuronix]

Does this exist in any other field like law or business?

Non-competes are not enforceable on lawyers by federal law.

 

[medgator]

Non-competes are not enforceable on lawyers by federal law.

Curious if you have a source for that. Usually non competes are governed by state law.

Plus found this... Doesn't sound like the non compete was illegal : Lawyer is reprimanded for including noncompete provision in associate's contract

 

[Neuronix]

You're right it isn't federal law. It's the American Bar Association.

Rule 5.6: Restrictions on Rights to Practice

Law Firms And Associations | A lawyer shall not participate in offering or making: (a) a partnership, shareholders, operating, employment, or other similar type of agreement that restricts the right of a lawyer to practice after termination of the relationship, except an agreement concerning...

www.americanbar.org

In the article you linked, that lawyer was cited by the bar for putting a non compete in his associate's contract.

So if the ABA can do it, why can't the AMA help with this?

 

[medgator]

You're right it isn't federal law. It's the American Bar Association.

Rule 5.6: Restrictions on Rights to Practice

Law Firms And Associations | A lawyer shall not participate in offering or making: (a) a partnership, shareholders, operating, employment, or other similar type of agreement that restricts the right of a lawyer to practice after termination of the relationship, except an agreement concerning...

www.americanbar.org

In the article you linked, that lawyer was cited by the bar for putting a non compete in his associate's contract.

So if the ABA can do it, why can't the AMA help with this?

Sounds like it was a reprimand, not a disbarrment. Not sure if the ama would have any more teeth in that regard if they did anything like that

 

[Neuronix]

How about to start a statement from the AMA that non-competes are unethical because they can compel physicians to practice in ways that are not in the interest of patients?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Very nice salary plus bonuses if you can tolerate those winters

'radiation OR oncology OR opening OR in OR nthern OR new OR yk OR STATECODE:"NY"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,430 'radiation OR oncology OR opening OR in OR nthern OR new OR yk OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

Orange man's new "tax cut" screwed states like New York, and state taxes are no longer as refundable, meaning person in NY will pay far more now. The salary isn't quite as high as it seems post-federal and state taxes. Not that competitive...

 

[medgator]

Orange man's new "tax cut" screwed states like New York, and state taxes are no longer as refundable, meaning person in NY will pay far more now. The salary isn't quite as high as it seems post-federal and state taxes. Not that competitive...

I'm a fan of tx, TN and FL etc myself too (and not of orange man but I digress), but the fact is there is only ny state and property tax to deal with here, and real estate is likely dirt cheap to buy or rent up there. Most positions AFAIK in the NE aren't going to pay like that.

Many have said jobs paying above $300k upfront are hard to find and complain they are locked in bad situations willing to move anywhere. This is a job for them.

 

[xrthopeful]

Orange man's new "tax cut" screwed states like New York, and state taxes are no longer as refundable, meaning person in NY will pay far more now. The salary isn't quite as high as it seems post-federal and state taxes. Not that competitive...

I don't think you know how taxes work.

The salary is clearly quite high, even 'with NY taxes'

 

[evilbooyaa]

How about to start a statement from the AMA that non-competes are unethical because they can compel physicians to practice in ways that are not in the interest of patients?

Because the AMA (just like ASTRO) is run by academic physicians who have a vested interest in being able to enforce their (outrageous or non-outrageous) non-compete clauses? Forget the fact that for Rad Onc specifically, the ability to leave a practice and 'hang a shingle' on one's own is essentially impossible given the upfront costs required.

 

[xrthopeful]

Because the AMA (just like ASTRO) is run by academic physicians who have a vested interest in being able to enforce their (outrageous or non-outrageous) non-compete clauses? Forget the fact that for Rad Onc specifically, the ability to leave a practice and 'hang a shingle' on one's own is essentially impossible given the upfront costs required.

honestly, kind of a silly post. it's really the private practitioners that have more stringent non-competes, and why wouldn't they? they have more to lose if someone decides to set up shop across town.

a good PP doc is hustling more for his/her patient streams (compared to an academic doc), so would naturally want to protect more.

 

[medgator]

honestly, kind of a silly post. it's really the private practitioners that have more stringent non-competes, and why wouldn't they? they have more to lose if someone decides to set up shop across town.

a good PP doc is hustling more for his/her patient streams (compared to an academic doc), so would naturally want to protect more.

You mean the share of docs that are becoming increasingly extinct per recent workforce surveys?

The hospitals are just as serious about putting restrictive non competes in their employment contracts and likely have greater legal and financial firepower to enforce them. And I've seen situations where the hospital will hire up former pp docs and then dare the competing group to sue them.

Many anecdotes on SDN of academic practices doing the same thing in terms of restrictive non competes, esp in pp satellite locations.

 

[evilbooyaa]

honestly, kind of a silly post. it's really the private practitioners that have more stringent non-competes, and why wouldn't they? they have more to lose if someone decides to set up shop across town.

a good PP doc is hustling more for his/her patient streams (compared to an academic doc), so would naturally want to protect more.

A PP usually has one, maybe a few facilities (up to like 3 or 4?) The big conglomerate PP groups with 5-10+ facilities is dying a progressive death.

Many academics have satellites (which count) that go up into the 10s or 20s for satellites.

Academic non-compete contracts frequently include a large radius around ALL satellite campuses as well. I know personally of n=3 that do this.

You tell me which scenario a non-compete sounds like a bigger problem for?

Regardless, if there is a huge PP group with 10+ facilities and the non-compete is applicable to a large radius around all 10 of their facilities, then yes, that's BS too.

 

[qwerty89]

The fact that most of the un-anonymous attendings on ASTRO hub agree about concerns about residency expansion and job market refutes this point. Do you feel that the increase in advertised fellowship positions (and graduates doing fellowships) is a good thing? We're just a few steps away from Radiology and Pathology 2.0, both of which essentially MANDATE one fellowship, and doing 2 fellowships is becoming more and more common. Is that what should be expected of our field as well?

Last time there was a job market issue in the 90s, our field, in part, increased training by one year. Is the proposed solution just to wring our hands and say "do another year of training for all"?

Except the difference is that Radiology fellowships actually give you additional expertise. Neuroradiologists are absolutely better at H&N radiology for example. Not uncommon to have neurosurgeons request that only neuro fellowship trained folks read their patients CT/MRs. Or Ortho requesting reads from MSK trained rads.

With consolidation of traditional private practice into larger mega groups its not uncommon to get a job in a major metro area where you read 75+% of cases related to your area of fellowship. Rural areas are different.

 

[radiaterMike]

Orange man's new "tax cut" screwed states like New York, and state taxes are no longer as refundable, meaning person in NY will pay far more now. The salary isn't quite as high as it seems post-federal and state taxes. Not that competitive...

State and local taxes were never “refundable”

For those who itemize their deductions, state and local taxes have been (and still are) deductible (meaning that it lowers the net income that is subject to federal tax). Orange man (no relationship to Jim Boeheim) capped that deduction at 10k which probably hurts many in high-taxed states. For some high earners in those states, the higher standard deduction and lower tax rates may counterbalance the loss of SALT though. I doubt the federal tax law will greatly impact who applies for this job in northern NY.

 

[medgator]

For some high earners in those states, the higher standard deduction and lower tax rates may counterbalance the loss of SALT though. I doubt the federal tax law will greatly impact who applies for this job in northern NY.

When some of these states are imposing 4-7% tax rates on top of your federal rate of 37%, the increased standard deduction isn't going to help that much.

3 Reasons Your Higher 2018 Standard Deduction Might Not Help You at Tax Time | The Motley Fool

Tax changes have taken effect, but they won't save everyone money.

www.fool.com

NY is over 5% marginal income tax rate on everything above $11k.

New York Income Tax Calculator - SmartAsset

Find out how much you'll pay in New York state income taxes given your annual income. Customize using your filing status, deductions, exemptions and more.

smartasset.com

No joke for those hoping to make a killing in rural upstate NY... Basically the price of an average new car every year is what you'll pay in NY income tax, all of that plus the absurd NY property taxes were deductible until this recent tax bill. So that $50k deduction when you combine state income and property tax is now limited to $10k.

Hard to argue that paying tax on an extra $40k at the top federal income tax rate in income is insignificant.

Personally, I'd take $500k in a zero tax sunbelt state like FL, TX or TN over $625k in upstate NY as the difference in takehome is likely to be MUCH less than $125k...

 

[thecarbonionangle]

When some of these states are imposing 4-7% tax rates on top of your federal rate of 37%, the increased standard deduction isn't going to help that much.

3 Reasons Your Higher 2018 Standard Deduction Might Not Help You at Tax Time | The Motley Fool

Tax changes have taken effect, but they won't save everyone money.

www.fool.com

NY is over 5% marginal income tax rate on everything above $11k.

New York Income Tax Calculator - SmartAsset

Find out how much you'll pay in New York state income taxes given your annual income. Customize using your filing status, deductions, exemptions and more.

smartasset.com

No joke for those hoping to make a killing in rural upstate NY... Basically the price of an average new car every year is what you'll pay in NY income tax, all of that plus the absurd NY property taxes were deductible until this recent tax bill. So that $50k deduction when you combine state income and property tax is now limited to $10k.

Hard to argue that paying tax on an extra $40k at the top federal income tax rate in income is insignificant.

Personally, I'd take $500k in a zero tax sunbelt state like FL, TX or TN over $625k in upstate NY as the difference in takehome is likely to be less than $125k...

Yeah thats my point. Sorry i mispoke but glad you all understood what i meant by “refundable”. Bottomline now that SALT is gone these high incomes arent really that much more, comparatively.

 

[medgator]

Yeah thats my point. Sorry i mispoke but glad you all understood what i meant by “refundable”. Bottomline now that SALT is gone these high incomes arent really that much more, comparatively.

I don't think everyone understands it. $10K limit for deducting state taxes is nothing if you're doing RO in a place like CA, NY, NJ etc. The property tax or, especially, the income tax you're paying alone is much more than that by itself.

Finance/taxes in general is something that isn't really taught well in general education, or in med school for that matter. That's why it's great there are things like White coat investor etc., but I digress

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I don't think everyone understands it. $10K limit for deducting state taxes is nothing if you're doing RO in a place like CA, NY, NJ etc. The property tax or, especially, the income tax you're paying alone is much more than that by itself.

Finance/taxes in general is something that isn't really taught well in general education, or in med school for that matter. That's why it's great there are things like White coat investor etc., but I digress

Yup these salaries at the end with these deductions going away are not really that attractive. If i am going to go to upstate NY a 450k salary imo is not really that attractive due to new taxation laws. Orange man screwed those states for the “real americans”.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

State and local taxes were never “refundable”

For those who itemize their deductions, state and local taxes have been (and still are) deductible (meaning that it lowers the net income that is subject to federal tax). Orange man (no relationship to Jim Boeheim) capped that deduction at 10k which probably hurts many in high-taxed states. For some high earners in those states, the higher standard deduction and lower tax rates may counterbalance the loss of SALT though. I doubt the federal tax law will greatly impact who applies for this job in northern NY.

Think it will “greatly impact” far more than you say. we are talking about a quite significant net tax increase for these states...

 

[KHE88]

Yup these salaries at the end with these deductions going away are not really that attractive. If i am going to go to upstate NY a 450k salary imo is not really that attractive due to new taxation laws. Orange man screwed those states for the “real americans”.

But fake news told me that the Trump tax plan was a tax cut for the rich.
Even the NYT is backtracking on that now as the refunds come in... Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

New York State income tax on $450,000 AGI is $29,168 with no local tax in upstate new york
Deducting this from federal tax burden lowers your AGI to $420,832. Compared to the $10,000 cap on SALT deductions now, this means you have to pay a whopping $8,472 more in taxes due to loss of the SALT deduction.

In other words, you take a 1.9% hit to your income to live in upstate New York.
"Really not that attractive"???

It's also worth noting that there is significant effort by lawmakers in New York to restore the full SALT deduction.

Think it will “greatly impact” far more than you say. we are talking about a quite significant net tax increase for these states...

Really? "Greatly impact"? Really?

Don't worry, Bernie Sanders will fix this high tax problem for us...

 

[medgator]

But fake news told me that the Trump tax plan was a tax cut for the rich.
Even the NYT is backtracking on that now as the refunds come in... Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

New York State income tax on $450,000 AGI is $29,168 with no local tax in upstate new york
Deducting this from federal tax burden lowers your AGI to $420,832. Compared to the $10,000 cap on SALT deductions now, this means you have to pay a whopping $8,472 more in taxes due to loss of the SALT deduction.

In other words, you take a 1.9% hit to your income to live in upstate New York.
"Really not that attractive"???

It's also worth noting that there is significant effort by lawmakers in New York to restore the full SALT deduction.



Really? "Greatly impact"? Really?

Don't worry, Bernie Sanders will fix this high tax problem for us...

The only permanent tax cut was for corporations, the individual cuts were highly regressive, which is probably why the GOP didn't campaign on it during the midterms. So be excited for your small cut while the lions share of the cut went to the 0.1-1%. And they all expire in a decade anyways since the tax cut wasn't really paid for with spending cuts

Paul Ryan's Tax Cut Tweet Draws Scorn, Is Deleted

Social media users blasted Speaker of the House Paul Ryan on Twitter after he boasted about the GOP tax bill.

www.snopes.com

Remember Paul Ryan's foot in mouth tweet about the teacher seeing an extra $1.50/week in her paycheck to cover her Costco membership?

Your example also excludes ridiculous upstate NY property tax which is no longer deductible since you've already used up your SALT deduction.

The actual job posted ensures you'll easily be paying five figures extra in tax thanks to the loss of the SALT deduction.

Trying to avoid getting into politics here but this tax cut was definitely a plus for red state and a minus for blue state earners, was highly regressive and is slated to create trillion dollar deficits annually starting next year since trump has increased spending as well as cut taxes

Republicans don't care about deficits while they are in power though and Trump used populist schtick to get elected but this is a tax cut for the very rich and corporations. And of course high earning physicians are excluded from the tax deduction for s-Corps, unlike wealthy real estate tycoons...

That 20 percent tax break for small businesses is no free-for-all. How to navigate

If you're rushing to incorporate your small business so you can grab that 20 percent deduction, slow down. Here's what you should consider first.

www.cnbc.com

The masses are going to be pissed when they finally figure this out and eventually elect a real populist much to the dismay of many of us who are centrists.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

But fake news told me that the Trump tax plan was a tax cut for the rich.
Even the NYT is backtracking on that now as the refunds come in... Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

New York State income tax on $450,000 AGI is $29,168 with no local tax in upstate new york
Deducting this from federal tax burden lowers your AGI to $420,832. Compared to the $10,000 cap on SALT deductions now, this means you have to pay a whopping $8,472 more in taxes due to loss of the SALT deduction.

In other words, you take a 1.9% hit to your income to live in upstate New York.
"Really not that attractive"???

It's also worth noting that there is significant effort by lawmakers in New York to restore the full SALT deduction.



Really? "Greatly impact"? Really?

Don't worry, Bernie Sanders will fix this high tax problem for us...

Wallner may have been onto something. You simply do not pay attention. The tax cut represented a major shift to mostly high income households. I won’t argue that further here with you as its simply futile. You’ve descredited yourself previously by spouting vile canards like “obama worsened racial divisions”.

Keep the tinfoil hat on folks. You ain’t seen nothing yet baby! Sanders burn coming but you aren’t ready for AOC presidency!!!

Now where were we? Ya job is all yours!!

 

[deleted18755]

Unrelated to the subsequent tax discussion but did anybody else (who isn’t familiar with NYS other than where NYC is located) look this place up on the map? They aren’t joking when they say “Northern” NY ... it’s practically in French Canada not that far from Ottowa and closer to Montreal than NYC!

Geography was never my thing but I’m embarrassed to say I never realized NYS was so expansive (I guess I thought Vermont was above not east of NYS up that way).

Must be really annoying to be a rural small town New York Stater who probably relates more with “red” states in a heavily “blue” one (check out the county by county blue vs red map ... very interesting).

 

[medgator]

Must be really annoying to be a rural small town New York Stater who probably relates more with “red” states in a heavily “blue” one (check out the county by county blue vs red map ... very interesting).

true in many states. Texas, Florida and Georgia have been trending purple /blue away from red because the cities are growing going blue while the surrounding rural areas remain red with stagnating populations

 

[deleted18755]

true in many states. Texas, Florida and Georgia have been trending purple /blue away from red because the cities are growing going blue while the surrounding rural areas remain red with stagnating populations

If you’re really bored (and not as up to date as is the case for me) scan the county by county then compare 2016 vs 2012 etc while noting where the booming cities in growing red states are and what’s noted above is very true).

On another note, from the tax discussion above it must be weird then to be a die hard trump supporter in a very red county of a very blue state who got hit with the “SALT” limit that some believe was to punish democratic states.

Anyway in my opinion that’s a lot of money no matter where you live but there are obviously huge differences in taxes and cost of living throughout the country and some very remote areas very far from major metropolitan areas even in states like New York that aren’t usually thought of as “rural” states!

 

[KHE88]

Wallner may have been onto something. You simply do not pay attention. The tax cut represented a major shift to mostly high income households. I won’t argue that further here with you as its simply futile. You’ve descredited yourself previously by spouting vile canards like “obama worsened racial divisions”.

Keep the tinfoil hat on folks. You ain’t seen nothing yet baby! Sanders burn coming but you aren’t ready for AOC presidency!!!

Now where were we? Ya job is all yours!!

Agree that's it's probably futile to continue to engaging with you. I'd be happy to have a reasonable discussion with you about things like the evolution of racial tensions under the Obama administration, the rise of democratic socialists and the far left, and the impact of tax reform, but you don't really seem interested in discussing these things in an honest context.

That's sad as I previously considered you more or less an ally on here. Sad that you had to resort to a personal attack and take a swipe at my intelligence with your Wallner comment and ABR exam failure implication simply because you apparently have very different political opinions than I do.

 

[medgator]

, but you don't really seem interested in discussing these things in an honest context.

Pot meet kettle

 

[KHE88]

The only permanent tax cut was for corporations, the individual cuts were highly regressive, which is probably why the GOP didn't campaign on it during the midterms. So be excited for your small cut while the lions share of the cut went to the 0.1-1%. And they all expire in a decade anyways since the tax cut wasn't really paid for with spending cuts

Paul Ryan's Tax Cut Tweet Draws Scorn, Is Deleted

Social media users blasted Speaker of the House Paul Ryan on Twitter after he boasted about the GOP tax bill.

www.snopes.com

Remember Paul Ryan's foot in mouth tweet about the teacher seeing an extra $1.50/week in her paycheck to cover her Costco membership?

Your example also excludes ridiculous upstate NY property tax which is no longer deductible since you've already used up your SALT deduction.

The actual job posted ensures you'll easily be paying five figures extra in tax thanks to the loss of the SALT deduction.

Trying to avoid getting into politics here but this tax cut was definitely a plus for red state and a minus for blue state earners, was highly regressive and is slated to create trillion dollar deficits annually starting next year since trump has increased spending as well as cut taxes

Republicans don't care about deficits while they are in power though and Trump used populist schtick to get elected but this is a tax cut for the very rich and corporations. And of course high earning physicians are excluded from the tax deduction for s-Corps, unlike wealthy real estate tycoons...

That 20 percent tax break for small businesses is no free-for-all. How to navigate

If you're rushing to incorporate your small business so you can grab that 20 percent deduction, slow down. Here's what you should consider first.

www.cnbc.com

The masses are going to be pissed when they finally figure this out and eventually elect a real populist much to the dismay of many of us who are centrists.

I am aware of the issues with the property tax deduction as well, and of course that is going to vary depending on the property you own, but my point was that a certain poster's hyperbolic comments that the tax changes were so dramatic as to outright toss out consideration of a $450k salary job in NYS due to the tax hit being so unacceptably high were going off the rails just a little bit. Yes, you're paying more tax to live in NYS, but as a percentage overall of your extremely high top-1%-tile income, it's basically a drop in the bucket and would result in a negligible if any at all impact on your QOL/standard of living. You say "5 figures" yet that's a pretty big range from 10,000 - 99,000. Even with property, we're still well at the low end of this, which percentage wise is a very small chunk of $450,000/year. Certainly not enough to outright not even consider the job if you otherwise wanted to be there IMO.

I am aware of the corporate benefit of the tax law and have family members with eligible S-corporations who have seen big tax savings this year from it. Of note, they are not rich and make around $100k/year from the S-corporation.

The other point is that the reality is most Americans are paying less in taxes as a result of the changes whether they like to admit it or not and that media has pushed a false narrative about this.
There are many things I disagree with Trump on, and as more of a centrist like you apparently are, I think we are in agreement with things like spending/deficit run-up.

 

[KHE88]

Pot meet kettle

I literally just said I was willing to have an honest discussion.

 

[medgator]

I literally just said I was willing to have an honest discussion.

Fine, but calling out Obama for inflammation of racial tensions while ignoring what has accelerated under the current president smacks of partisanship and intellectual dishonesty, as does trying to give a free pass to deficit busting tax cuts that disproportionately help corporations and 1%ers, while negatively impacting a group of states from the other side of the political spectrum. Once upon a time Republicans actually cared about being fiscal conservative, but the biggest winner in my lifetime on that one was slick willy

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Fine, but calling out Obama for inflammation of racial tensions while ignoring what has accelerated under the current president smacks of partisanship and intellectual dishonesty, as does trying to give a free pass to deficit busting tax cuts that disproportionately help corporations and 1%ers, while negatively impacting a group of states from the other side of the political spectrum. Once upon a time Republicans actually cared about being fiscal conservative, but the biggest winner in my lifetime on that one was slick willy

Agree. Im tired of reading intellectually dishonest drivel camouflaging as “reasonable centrism”+ mansplaining. no “honest” discussion can ever happen on those terms!!!

 

[KHE88]

Fine, but calling out Obama for inflammation of racial tensions while ignoring what has accelerated under the current president smacks of partisanship and intellectual dishonesty, as does trying to give a free pass to deficit busting tax cuts that disproportionately help corporations and 1%ers, while negatively impacting a group of states from the other side of the political spectrum. Once upon a time Republicans actually cared about being fiscal conservative, but the biggest winner in my lifetime on that one was slick willy

"Calling out Obama for inflammation of racial tensions while ignoring what has accelerated under the current president"

I did not do this. Just because I crticized Obama for something does not mean that I automatically ignore any problems with the current administration. It is possible to talk about one without talking about the other. It's possible to have a conversation about the past in the context of the past.

"trying to give a free pass to deficit busting tax cuts"

I did not do this.

Dude, this is an extremely complicated topic completely unrelated to the current conversation that the alligator took out of context to try and take an ad hominem swipe at me. I'll be happy to get into it elsewhere but it has nothing to do with my opinions on tax reform, which also really wasn't the point of my comments, which were to simply to state that the effect of losing the SALT deduction isn't quite as dramatic as it was being made out to be.

Please don't lump me into being a blindly loyal Trumpian just because I might have an opinion on something, somewhere, on some unrelated topic that differs from your own. I'm not a part of that. That IS intellectually dishonest.

That said, I think I've made my point. But I'm fairly annoyed that the alligator poster has all of the sudden decided to take personal swipes at me on multiple threads unrelated to my points because he/she is upset that I think Obama may have made some bad decisions or is triggered by some other opinion I may have posted. I don't get why everything has to devolve into discussing things in the context of Trump i.e., "how can you possibly have opinion X when Trump did Y???"

Come on. Done with this.