Received 2 DUI’s 10 and 17 years ago. Don’t have substance abuse problems. Will I get accepted to MD?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

AgouraBtheS

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Hi,

I’m 38 years old, and going back to school. I have been working with doctors for the past 10 years, and I’ve been dreaming of going back and becoming one. I fulfilled all of my pre-med, pre-req’s and I’m studying for the MCAT now.

But...I’m SO worried that my past will come back to haunt me. Regrettably and horribly, I got a DUI 17 years ago followed by another 10 years ago. No one was injured, there was no accident. Nonetheless it’s horrifying to think that I did such things. I have only had maybe a half of a champaign toast at a New Years eve party, or birthday between then and now, but I basically just stopped drinking all together after the second one, on my own. I never wanted to touch it again. It still makes me sick to think about.

By the time I apply for Medical School it will have been 11-12 year, and 17-19 years since they occurred. I’m hoping against hope I still have a chance. Would anyone know who I could ask, or where I could find this information?

Members don't see this ad.
 
It may raise an eyebrow or two, but I think most people would say that ten years is a good amount of time to show that you are a different person.

You’ll have to apply broadly, definitely put DO schools on your list, and absolutely DO NOT hide it when asked about this in admissions. Use it as way to show how you have changed since then.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Get them expunged and then just check no because legally they didn’t happen if they were expunged. You can even get expunged ones removed from the fingerprint based scans
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Hi,

I’m 38 years old, and going back to school. I have been working with doctors for the past 10 years, and I’ve been dreaming of going back and becoming one. I fulfilled all of my pre-med, pre-req’s and I’m studying for the MCAT now.

But...I’m SO worried that my past will come back to haunt me. Regrettably and horribly, I got a DUI 17 years ago followed by another 10 years ago. No one was injured, there was no accident. Nonetheless it’s horrifying to think that I did such things. I have only had maybe a half of a champaign toast at a New Years eve party, or birthday between then and now, but I basically just stopped drinking all together after the second one, on my own. I never wanted to touch it again. It still makes me sick to think about.

By the time I apply for Medical School it will have been 11-12 year, and 17-19 years since they occurred. I’m hoping against hope I still have a chance. Would anyone know who I could ask, or where I could find this information?
You'll need to get them expunged if you want a chance. Otherwise, I wouldn't take you as an applicant. I understand a crime many years ago or maybe a couple in a span of 2 or 3 years, then a large gap of change. The big problem with you is that you committed a second crime 7 years later, which makes me wonder if you're susceptible to relapses or if you just got lucky for 7 years not getting caught again
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
By the time I apply for Medical School it will have been 11-12 year, and 17-19 years since they occurred. I’m hoping against hope I still have a chance. Would anyone know who I could ask, or where I could find this information?
No way to know other than giving it a shot.

If you have an otherwise compelling application with some sort of redemption narrative you may get some traction.
 
You'll need to get them expunged if you want a chance. Otherwise, I wouldn't take you as an applicant. I understand a crime many years ago or maybe a couple in a span of 2 or 3 years, then a large gap of change. The big problem with you is that you committed a second crime 7 years later, which makes me wonder if you're susceptible to relapses or if you just got lucky for 7 years not getting caught again
Well there’s no way to get them expunged in my state. Even if there was, they would still appear in most advanced checks done these days. I understand your concern about the distance between them and the susceptibility of relapse. I’m not sure how old you are, but I’ll be coming up on 40 years old when I apply to medical school. By that time it will have been 11-12 years, and 18-19 years ago. This was before the time of Uber, and was from “small town USA” where the cops know everyone by name. I will admit, it was a problem for me in my 20’s. However, do you believe that a human being can change/is a different person in their 40’s than who they were in their 20’s? Also, this is not a “casual career” option for me. Things have happened in my life throughout my 30’s where I can no longer not imagine going into Oncology. It’s more than a profession, it’s more than a passion, it’s my life mission. It’s why I’m here. I wouldn’t even know what do with my life if I couldn’t enter that profession. Obviously, at this stage in life, it’s not even worth the cost/benefit for what I’ll pay to get the doctorate vs. how much time I have left on this earth to practice and how much money I’ll make vs. have to pay back.

What I’m getting at is this. Yes, I was an extremely different person in my 20’s. I was a drinker of alcohol. I hardly even remember who that person is today. I had someone offer me a champaign toast over the holidays. I took one sip and set it down out of disgust. I honestly can’t even remember why I use to find drinking alcohol enjoyable. It tastes disgusting. I have not been intoxicated since my 20’s. Thus, no reason to worry about relapse. Yes, I could understand if I got a DUI at 21, and then 28, and then I was 34, 35, or 36 and trying to get in. I’ll be 40 though. I admit that in my 20’s I made some terrible judgement calls. However, that was my 20’s. Does it then follow that for the rest of 60+ years (hopefully) on this planet I should not be allowed to do the one thing, the only thing, that I can possibly imagine doing with my life and being of service to others because of poor choices I made within the first decade of my life that I was allowed to drink alcohol?

What would you think if right now (about 2 year before I apply), I started doing voluntary (random) EtG tests (a test that can show if there’s been alcohol in your system for at least the previous 4 days? And I did that for the next 2 years, just to show that I do not even drink alcohol, and have not in well over a decade?

Again, this isn’t just a “Gee, I hope I can be a doctor when I grow up” thing. This is my entire life, at almost 40 years old.
 
Get them expunged and then just check no because legally they didn’t happen if they were expunged. You can even get expunged ones removed from the fingerprint based scans
I don’t believe you can get anything erased from a fingerprint scan if it’s the same FBI arrest database background check that hospitals use. I was in finance up until now. FINRA and the SEC require brokers and banks to run background checks. I did have a false arrest (no charges ever brought...completely unrelated, it was mistaken identity and they let me go, never even went to court), but the arrest will always show up. There is absolutely no way to get anything removed from the FBI arrest database, if those are the fingerprint scans you’re referring to. Perhaps there are others though that are run by private companies.
 
Well there’s no way to get them expunged in my state. Even if there was, they would still appear in most advanced checks done these days. I understand your concern about the distance between them and the susceptibility of relapse. I’m not sure how old you are, but I’ll be coming up on 40 years old when I apply to medical school. By that time it will have been 11-12 years, and 18-19 years ago. This was before the time of Uber, and was from “small town USA” where the cops know everyone by name. I will admit, it was a problem for me in my 20’s. However, do you believe that a human being can change/is a different person in their 40’s than who they were in their 20’s? Also, this is not a “casual career” option for me. Things have happened in my life throughout my 30’s where I can no longer not imagine going into Oncology. It’s more than a profession, it’s more than a passion, it’s my life mission. It’s why I’m here. I wouldn’t even know what do with my life if I couldn’t enter that profession. Obviously, at this stage in life, it’s not even worth the cost/benefit for what I’ll pay to get the doctorate vs. how much time I have left on this earth to practice and how much money I’ll make vs. have to pay back.

What I’m getting at is this. Yes, I was an extremely different person in my 20’s. I was a drinker of alcohol. I hardly even remember who that person is today. I had someone offer me a champaign toast over the holidays. I took one sip and set it down out of disgust. I honestly can’t even remember why I use to find drinking alcohol enjoyable. It tastes disgusting. I have not been intoxicated since my 20’s. Thus, no reason to worry about relapse. Yes, I could understand if I got a DUI at 21, and then 28, and then I was 34, 35, or 36 and trying to get in. I’ll be 40 though. I admit that in my 20’s I made some terrible judgement calls. However, that was my 20’s. Does it then follow that for the rest of 60+ years (hopefully) on this planet I should not be allowed to do the one thing, the only thing, that I can possibly imagine doing with my life and being of service to others because of poor choices I made within the first decade of my life that I was allowed to drink alcohol?

What would you think if right now (about 2 year before I apply), I started doing voluntary (random) EtG tests (a test that can show if there’s been alcohol in your system for at least the previous 4 days? And I did that for the next 2 years, just to show that I do not even drink alcohol, and have not in well over a decade?

Again, this isn’t just a “Gee, I hope I can be a doctor when I grow up” thing. This is my entire life, at almost 40 years old.
We are similar in age and certainly understand what it's like to make stupid mistakes in youth and changing as a person. I personally have no animosity toward you, so I hope my critique is not taken personally

You have to understand that sometimes certain mistakes will carry with us for the rest of our lives. They seem unfair to us because we personally carry them. However, if we take a larger view of populations, we may understand why:

1. Doctors see patients come back to the hospital over and over with the same problems until they die.
2. We have seen people in our lives, including colleagues, falling back on old habits. Sometimes those mistakes don't happen in close intervals
3. We have seen ourselves do things we know better not to. As a personal example, although not to the magnitude of substance abuse, I have indulged in overeating and gaining weight
4. The prevalent theory on addiction is that it is an incurable disease that once you "turn it on" it can't be turned off again
5. Medical training can be very stressful, so rightfully people will be apprehensive that it may trigger something
6. You've already shown relapse. People that relapse most often relapse again

I mean, yes, the best you can do is try to do things that speak in your favor. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee. You'll find some people willing to give you that "3rd shot" while others won't. Being 40 is unfortunately a double edged sword. Normally, being older can bring something positive to the table, but that may not be the case when there's negative history. While some may see it as a way to show maturity, others may say that it's better to give a younger person a shot

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in both getting into medical school and not relapsing, but I would be dishonest if I didn't tell you that there are those that will use it against you. Hell, there's doctors that pretty openly discriminate patients that do alcohol and drugs. Some of these people will be in your admissions committees
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don’t believe you can get anything erased from a fingerprint scan if it’s the same FBI arrest database background check that hospitals use. I was in finance up until now. FINRA and the SEC require brokers and banks to run background checks. I did have a false arrest (no charges ever brought...completely unrelated, it was mistaken identity and they let me go, never even went to court), but the arrest will always show up. There is absolutely no way to get anything removed from the FBI arrest database, if those are the fingerprint scans you’re referring to. Perhaps there are others though that are run by private companies.
If you get an expungment, you can legally answer no to having been arrested or beyond. While these may be picked up by fingerprinting, it won't affect your job. The thing is you usually get offered a job and then they run a background check on you. If they have offered you a job and then try to dismiss you for an expunged record and answering according to the law, they open themselves to litigation. That said, most conventional background checks that aren't fingerprinted usually have records erased upon expungment
 
There is a lot of misinformation here. Expunged records are handled differently state to state and secondary applications vary in the information requested. Licensing requirements are worth considering too when answering these questions. However, people with felonies have gotten in and are practicing today. Regardless it will be an uphill battle with increasing competition. Unfortunately there isn’t a clear answer. All the best to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
There is a lot of misinformation here. Expunged records are handled differently state to state and secondary applications vary in the information requested. Licensing requirements are worth considering too when answering these questions. However, people with felonies have gotten in and are practicing today. Regardless it will be an uphill battle with increasing competition. Unfortunately there isn’t a clear answer. All the best to you.
I have already spoken with lawyers that are familiar with licensing board regulations with a couple of states. They have informed me that it will not be easy, and there will likely be several disclosures I have to make, and likely many hoops I have to jump through, but it would not preclude me from being licensed. In some states, it could absolutely prohibit me from obtaining a license, but likely not every state.

I've worked in some extremely tight circles in finance where I also had to be licensed and had to disclose everything. Yes, I know that medicine =/= finance. However, in many ways the regulatory side of it is similar. You absolutely CANNOT be licensed in Finance if you’ve ever had a felony, period. There is absolutely no way around that. Doesn’t matter what the felony was, if you ever had one, even if it was 30 years ago...you will *never* be able to work in many areas of finance that require FINRA and SEC licensing requirements. In many ways, finance can be more strict than medicine. I understand that in medicine you are dealing with people’s lives, and with controlled substances. However, in finance, you are working in banks and managing fortunes of entire organizations, pensions, and the retirement and welfare of millions of peoples lives. I was personally in change of the Texas Teacher’s State Pension fund. They absolutely would not trust a person with a felony of any sort, ever, with the retirement and pensions of every teacher in the state of Texas. You have to be very lucid, and extremely cool calm and collected under pressure. Because every move you make will impact the rest of the lives of millions of teachers. So, in many ways, it is somewhat similar.

I’ve had to undergo and jump through many, many hoops in my professional career up till now. Some organizations have said “no” but not all of them, and I was able to get licensed.

I don’t think the licensing issue is one that I am most concerned with. If I lived in State “X” for example, and they said “no absolutely not, we will never license you because you had 2 DUI’s a couple of decades ago” ...then I would not hesitate to move to a State “Y” or “Z” that would be ok with licensing me. I frankly don’t care where I have to live or where I have to go. I want to become a doctor. I just don’t know if literally every single medical school, MD and DO, will say “no”. And I mean *every* single one of them (outside of the Caribbean, I’ve heard horror stories about that). I’m willing to apply to every single school in the continental United States.
 
I have already spoken with lawyers that are familiar with licensing board regulations with a couple of states. They have informed me that it will not be easy, and there will likely be several disclosures I have to make, and likely many hoops I have to jump through, but it would not preclude me from being licensed. In some states, it could absolutely prohibit me from obtaining a license, but likely not every state.

I've worked in some extremely tight circles in finance where I also had to be licensed and had to disclose everything. Yes, I know that medicine =/= finance. However, in many ways the regulatory side of it is similar. You absolutely CANNOT be licensed in Finance if you’ve ever had a felony, period. There is absolutely no way around that. Doesn’t matter what the felony was, if you ever had one, even if it was 30 years ago...you will *never* be able to work in many areas of finance that require FINRA and SEC licensing requirements. In many ways, finance can be more strict than medicine. I understand that in medicine you are dealing with people’s lives, and with controlled substances. However, in finance, you are working in banks and managing fortunes of entire organizations, pensions, and the retirement and welfare of millions of peoples lives. I was personally in change of the Texas Teacher’s State Pension fund. They absolutely would not trust a person with a felony of any sort, ever, with the retirement and pensions of every teacher in the state of Texas. You have to be very lucid, and extremely cool calm and collected under pressure. Because every move you make will impact the rest of the lives of millions of teachers. So, in many ways, it is somewhat similar.

I’ve had to undergo and jump through many, many hoops in my professional career up till now. Some organizations have said “no” but not all of them, and I was able to get licensed.

I don’t think the licensing issue is one that I am most concerned with. If I lived in State “X” for example, and they said “no absolutely not, we will never license you because you had 2 DUI’s a couple of decades ago” ...then I would not hesitate to move to a State “Y” or “Z” that would be ok with licensing me. I frankly don’t care where I have to live or where I have to go. I want to become a doctor. I just don’t know if literally every single medical school, MD and DO, will say “no”. And I mean *every* single one of them (outside of the Caribbean, I’ve heard horror stories about that). I’m willing to apply to every single school in the continental United States.


I doubt every single one would say no. Many will, but there will be others who will give you a chance assuming every other portion of your app is good. You’ll need more than the bare minimum of volunteer/shadow/clinical experience to make up for the past DUIs and try to get a good MCAT if you can.

Apply to reinvention friendly schools, invest in the MSAR and as said already apply both MD and DO. It is a possibility that you will get rejected from every school, but since you are dead set on trying regardless there isn’t really any reason to not shoot your shot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
We are similar in age and certainly understand what it's like to make stupid mistakes in youth and changing as a person. I personally have no animosity toward you, so I hope my critique is not taken personally

You have to understand that sometimes certain mistakes will carry with us for the rest of our lives. They seem unfair to us because we personally carry them. However, if we take a larger view of populations, we may understand why:

1. Doctors see patients come back to the hospital over and over with the same problems until they die.
2. We have seen people in our lives, including colleagues, falling back on old habits. Sometimes those mistakes don't happen in close intervals
3. We have seen ourselves do things we know better not to. As a personal example, although not to the magnitude of substance abuse, I have indulged in overeating and gaining weight
4. The prevalent theory on addiction is that it is an incurable disease that once you "turn it on" it can't be turned off again
5. Medical training can be very stressful, so rightfully people will be apprehensive that it may trigger something
6. You've already shown relapse. People that relapse most often relapse again

I mean, yes, the best you can do is try to do things that speak in your favor. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee. You'll find some people willing to give you that "3rd shot" while others won't. Being 40 is unfortunately a double edged sword. Normally, being older can bring something positive to the table, but that may not be the case when there's negative history. While some may see it as a way to show maturity, others may say that it's better to give a younger person a shot

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in both getting into medical school and not relapsing, but I would be dishonest if I didn't tell you that there are those that will use it against you. Hell, there's doctors that pretty openly discriminate patients that do alcohol and drugs. Some of these people will be in your admissions committees
I understand where you’re coming from, and I am trying to put myself in your shoes and not to take it personally. Some days are harder than others. This is something I’m making lifetime sacrifices for.

To your point about being my age. I do hope that my career up until now, and the massive responsibilities I have had speak to the fact that I can bring something positive. I have had a very successful career with some responsibilities (and financial licenses) that not many people achieve in their lifetime. I tried my best to use finance to make a positive change in children’s healthcare. It’s what I’ve spent the last 10 years doing. Ultimately though, as much good as I’ve done, I want to work one on one with the children. I don’t want to be the guy writing the checks that fund everything anymore. Finance is a very ugly world when you get on the inside of the inside.

To your point about addiction. I agree with you that the disease model of addiction is widely held, for better or worse, and I know that’s an ongoing debate. However, I will say that I do not believe that I ever crossed over the line into “addiction”...I did not have parents, role models, anything of the sort growing up. I never learned healthy coping skills in my 20’s. In many ways, I believe it took me until I was 30 years old to learn what many people learn in their late teenage years and early 20’s. I learned much about addiction after my 2nd DUI. I met many addicts/alcoholics. I worked with many addiction doctors. I do not believe I suffer from the disease of addiction. There are many things that addicts/alcoholics have to do to keep themselves from relapsing, and it seems to be lifetime struggle for them. I empathize greatly, and met many good people who struggled. Fortunately, I’m not one of them. I just have no interest in alcohol. Now that I’m older, and have learned healthy coping skills, it’s just not something I would ever even consider doing again, no matter what. It’s not a struggle, and I have been put to the test, stress-wise, multiple times since then.

However, I agree with you that many schools will not see it this way, and will likely agree with your points.

What my hope, and my ask is, is that just one school, in the entire United States (not Caribbean, sorry just seems too risky) will give me a chance. I understand that many, many schools will not. My hope is that I can maintain the GPA, other necessary items like volunteer/shadow, and score extremely well on the MCAT...so that my application would be a strong candidate for a top medical school in the United States. Maybe top 20 school. But with my background, hopefully I can apply broadly, possibly to every MD and DO school in the United States, until I’m accepted anywhere, no matter how “prestigious” or good the school is. At the end of the day, I want to be a doctor, and I don’t care if I graduate from Stanford, or some tiny school in the middle of Iowa or something...I just hope there is ONE willing to take me. All I need is one.

So I’m aiming for “the best”...knowing that even though all of my stats (3.96 GPA, hopefully can get the MCAT into the upper 90’th percentile, and everything else) would normally get me into a “top 20” school, I would take an acceptance from any school. And that’s all I’m hoping for.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I doubt every single one would say no. Many will, but there will be others who will give you a chance assuming every other portion of your app is good. You’ll need more than the bare minimum of volunteer/shadow/clinical experience to make up for the past DUIs and try to get a good MCAT if you can.

Apply to reinvention friendly schools, invest in the MSAR and as said already apply both MD and DO. It is a possibility that you will get rejected from every school, but since you are dead set on trying regardless there isn’t really any reason to not shoot your shot.
That’s what I’m trying to do. Be as successful as possible as if I were trying to get into an Ivy. However, I would take any school, MD or DO. Again...hoping that not *every* single one would reject me if I had the stats to get into a top tier school, but accepted a bottom tier school.

I am dead set on it, however, if I were to get some information that led me to believe that it was 100% an absolute waste of time, that there was no possibility of *any* school *ever* accepting me, no matter how good my GPA/MCAT (volunteer/shadow/clinical) was...then of course I would and *should* reconsider before I waste the last few best years of my life when I could be trying to meet a partner and have a family. I’ve always wanted to be married and to have children. I never had a family growing up, so I’m really making the ultimate sacrifice to go after this.
 
Ultimately though, as much good as I’ve done, I want to work one on one with the children. I don’t want to be the guy writing the checks that fund everything anymore.
I’ve always wanted to be married and to have children. I never had a family growing up, so I’m really making the ultimate sacrifice to go after this.

Do keep in mind that this path will take a minimum of 8-9 years. More if you ultimately want to do pediatric oncology. You may find yourself having regrets at the end of it if having a family was one of your biggest hopes growing up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I understand where you’re coming from, and I am trying to put myself in your shoes and not to take it personally. Some days are harder than others. This is something I’m making lifetime sacrifices for.

To your point about being my age. I do hope that my career up until now, and the massive responsibilities I have had speak to the fact that I can bring something positive. I have had a very successful career with some responsibilities (and financial licenses) that not many people achieve in their lifetime. I tried my best to use finance to make a positive change in children’s healthcare. It’s what I’ve spent the last 10 years doing. Ultimately though, as much good as I’ve done, I want to work one on one with the children. I don’t want to be the guy writing the checks that fund everything anymore. Finance is a very ugly world when you get on the inside of the inside.

To your point about addiction. I agree with you that the disease model of addiction is widely held, for better or worse, and I know that’s an ongoing debate. However, I will say that I do not believe that I ever crossed over the line into “addiction”...I did not have parents, role models, anything of the sort growing up. I never learned healthy coping skills in my 20’s. In many ways, I believe it took me until I was 30 years old to learn what many people learn in their late teenage years and early 20’s. I learned much about addiction after my 2nd DUI. I met many addicts/alcoholics. I worked with many addiction doctors. I do not believe I suffer from the disease of addiction. There are many things that addicts/alcoholics have to do to keep themselves from relapsing, and it seems to be lifetime struggle for them. I empathize greatly, and met many good people who struggled. Fortunately, I’m not one of them. I just have no interest in alcohol. Now that I’m older, and have learned healthy coping skills, it’s just not something I would ever even consider doing again, no matter what. It’s not a struggle, and I have been put to the test, stress-wise, multiple times since then.

However, I agree with you that many schools will not see it this way, and will likely agree with your points.

What my hope, and my ask is, is that just one school, in the entire United States (not Caribbean, sorry just seems too risky) will give me a chance. I understand that many, many schools will not. My hope is that I can maintain the GPA, other necessary items like volunteer/shadow, and score extremely well on the MCAT...so that my application would be a strong candidate for a top medical school in the United States. Maybe top 20 school. But with my background, hopefully I can apply broadly, possibly to every MD and DO school in the United States, until I’m accepted anywhere, no matter how “prestigious” or good the school is. At the end of the day, I want to be a doctor, and I don’t care if I graduate from Stanford, or some tiny school in the middle of Iowa or something...I just hope there is ONE willing to take me. All I need is one.

So I’m aiming for “the best”...knowing that even though all of my stats (3.96 GPA, hopefully can get the MCAT into the upper 90’th percentile, and everything else) would normally get me into a “top 20” school, I would take an acceptance from any school. And that’s all I’m hoping for.

I can definitely understand that you might have gotten drunk once and decided to get behind the wheel without necessarily being an addict. I think many people will question being addict or not if you've done it twice

I think you need to reframe what you consider gets someone in a top school. There are certainly people with a 4.0 and 90th percentile MCAT with perfect records rejected at top schools and having to go to DO school. The idea that it is a numbers game and checkboxes is one of the biggest mistakes people make. The truth is that schools have a type of internal cutoff. Everyone knows that there is very little difference between 3.83 and 3.97 in being able to succeed in medical school. It's great to have those grades, but they are only one aspect of your application

Again, I wish you good luck. I know what it's like to sacrifice so much before even entering medicine

Do keep in mind that this path will take a minimum of 8-9 years. More if you ultimately want to do pediatric oncology. You may find yourself having regrets at the end of it if having a family was one of your biggest hopes growing up.

I definitely agree that this path just seems much more rosy from the outside. Personally, I absolutely love being a physician, but I would be lying if it didn't come with certain sacrifices. There's a lot of time away from loves ones. There's a lot time sacrifice during training. This is not only work time, but it is also time doing presentations, preparing for journal clubs, and studying for ITE/board exams. My 30s were definitely outside the norm. Was it worth it? Maybe. In my 40s? Definitely not

OP will need 4 years medicine, 3 years pediatrics and 3 years oncology. It's financially and time-wise disastrous for anyone in their 50s, but that's not my business what someone decides to do with their life
 
The biggest issue (from my perspective in an educational leadership role in GME) is that there are so many great applicants, and the last thing any of us want is to select an applicant that has any detail on their app that suggests they may remotely struggle to become board certified or licensed, or to have behavioral issues of any kind. A trainee with a hint of behavioral issues might carry those issues into residency and fellowship and suddenly you have some circumstance where you lose a trainee and your program is down a person and it can be difficult for the whole program to pick up the slack (at least in smaller, specialty programs). Or, if there is something on the app that I know could cause licensing issues, such as a criminal record, I just don’t even want to mess with that when I have 100 other perfectly fine applicants without a red flag. (Same goes for abysmal exam scores that are in the very low range indicating a concern for not passing board exams). Graduating someone who ultimately can’t be fully licensed or certified is not a good look for a program, and can even have program accreditation maintenance implications. We all make mistakes and it isn’t that people aren’t forgiving, it’s just that it’s a big gamble when you’re in charge of running a tight ship.
 
The biggest issue (from my perspective in an educational leadership role in GME) is that there are so many great applicants, and the last thing any of us want is to select an applicant that has any detail on their app that suggests they may remotely struggle to become board certified or licensed, or to have behavioral issues of any kind. A trainee with a hint of behavioral issues might carry those issues into residency and fellowship and suddenly you have some circumstance where you lose a trainee and your program is down a person and it can be difficult for the whole program to pick up the slack (at least in smaller, specialty programs). Or, if there is something on the app that I know could cause licensing issues, such as a criminal record, I just don’t even want to mess with that when I have 100 other perfectly fine applicants without a red flag. (Same goes for abysmal exam scores that are in the very low range indicating a concern for not passing board exams). Graduating someone who ultimately can’t be fully licensed or certified is not a good look for a program, and can even have program accreditation maintenance implications. We all make mistakes and it isn’t that people aren’t forgiving, it’s just that it’s a big gamble when you’re in charge of running a tight ship.
I know someone at a community program that told me they first screen for anyone with an institutional action or criminal record and automatically dismiss them from consideration, but as far as I know, it was felony crimes. Hopefully each DUI was a misdemeanor. Now once in they look at excuses to rank you lower than everyone else. If you take any LOA, even if to study for boards, you go to the bottom of the list. The double edged sword that OP will find himself with is pediatrics. On one hand it is a very easy specialty to match into. On the other hand, you're dealing with children. OP is seriously making a great gamble on this because they could theoretically make it into medical school and be stellar yet not get into any residency
 
I can definitely understand that you might have gotten drunk once and decided to get behind the wheel without necessarily being an addict. I think many people will question being addict or not if you've done it twice

I think you need to reframe what you consider gets someone in a top school. There are certainly people with a 4.0 and 90th percentile MCAT with perfect records rejected at top schools and having to go to DO school. The idea that it is a numbers game and checkboxes is one of the biggest mistakes people make. The truth is that schools have a type of internal cutoff. Everyone knows that there is very little difference between 3.83 and 3.97 in being able to succeed in medical school. It's great to have those grades, but they are only one aspect of your application

Again, I wish you good luck. I know what it's like to sacrifice so much before even entering medicine



I definitely agree that this path just seems much more rosy from the outside. Personally, I absolutely love being a physician, but I would be lying if it didn't come with certain sacrifices. There's a lot of time away from loves ones. There's a lot time sacrifice during training. This is not only work time, but it is also time doing presentations, preparing for journal clubs, and studying for ITE/board exams. My 30s were definitely outside the norm. Was it worth it? Maybe. In my 40s? Definitely not

OP will need 4 years medicine, 3 years pediatrics and 3 years oncology. It's financially and time-wise disastrous for anyone in their 50s, but that's not my business what someone decides to do with their life
Time-wise...I can understand. Financially...well, that’s what I’ve ben doing with my life up until now. So financially I’m not worried. I get that a lot of you went into medicine because that was your chosen career path...and perhaps I’ve not seen enough of it to understand the side of it that isn’t so “rosy”...but for me it’s more a life calling. I would imagine if you survey’d a lot of people and asked them: “What do you want to do when you retire?” You would probably hear a lot of different answers. Even from amongst all of you. Maybe “Sail the world on my boat.” Or “Get a nice RV and travel the US.” Or even “travel the world.”

Cool...that’s awesome, do you. For me, the answer would be “Study and go to med school and continue to learn as much as possible, and eventually work with patients.”

I’m not doing it for the money. I just want to spend the rest of my life doing this. Until I’m so old they make me retire.

UPDATE: I did call a couple of schools and speak with Dean of Student Affairs. As you can probably imagine, a lot of responses were similar to this threat, and they said “no.” But I spoke to a couple of Deans who said “Yes, absolutely. I look forward to seeing your application.”

Now...residency might be a different story, and that’s a good point. It does involve working with children. My only thought/hope is that by then (in 5 more years) we’ll be pushing 2 decades ago on the last one, and 3 decades ago on the 1st one.

Also, not that it matters, but who knows how they will look at them. Yes, they are both misdemeanors. I looked up the paperwork from the 2nd one. It’s noted that I was “not above the legal limit to drive” but that I was arrested as “less than safe” Aka, I had 1 drink and blew a .001 on the breathalyzer. The cop could have easily let me go, but got me on a 0 tolerance law that, everywhere else in the United States, would not have been a DUI. Not that I’m going to say anything about that. But if they do indeed review the paperwork around the case, that’s what they’ll see.
 
I'm not saying this to discourage you, but I do remember when I was younger and having similar sentiments that I wanted to be a life-long learner, medicine was a calling, finances weren't as important, etc. Over time, things begin to change. You won't necessarily want to work until you are forced into retirement. Of course, the opposite might be true and you'll stay the course on this. It's always interesting to me how we can be "sure" what we want our life to be yet have never lived that life to know if it would actually fulfill us. I wish you good luck. It seems you're a very determined person and generally mature. It sucks that your state had you arrested over 1 drink. That's just nonsense legislation
 
As one user mentioned above, the main problem is that you'll be competing against applicants that just don't have any DUI's, I know lots of professors and attendings that are fairly liberal with 2nd, even 3rd chances. I even know a student earned a DUI during med school.

I would question why you made the decision to risk driving drunk the second time.

I even refused a date to the bars once with a pharmacist who insisted we got to the bars and we both drink, because I just don't feel like risky my medical career over a DUI.

However, I'm more accustomed to DPM and DO programs, and less with MD. Maybe perhaps MD schools will take your application and it will be dead-on-arrival.

Also, you mentioned a place gave you a DUI for .001? This does not seem realistic, are you sure that's the whole story? Something seems amiss with that.
 
As one user mentioned above, the main problem is that you'll be competing against applicants that just don't have any DUI's, I know lots of professors and attendings that are fairly liberal with 2nd, even 3rd chances. I even know a student earned a DUI during med school.

I would question why you made the decision to risk driving drunk the second time.

I even refused a date to the bars once with a pharmacist who insisted we got to the bars and we both drink, because I just don't feel like risky my medical career over a DUI.

However, I'm more accustomed to DPM and DO programs, and less with MD. Maybe perhaps MD schools will take your application and it will be dead-on-arrival.

Also, you mentioned a place gave you a DUI for .001? This does not seem realistic, are you sure that's the whole story? Something seems amiss with that.
Why would I make up a random law? How would I even know that law existed? It says plainly on the ticket “DUI--Below legal limit--“Less than safe” ...just google “DUI less than safe” and you can read all about the states with zero tolerance laws. I remember the 2nd time (and again--don’t forget this is before Uber existed, and way out in the country where you can’t call a cab...literally I was on a dirt road in the middle of nowhere).

I remember thinking to myself “I know that alcohol metabolizes at around 1 drink per hour." I had 2 drinks, and it had been well over two hours. I felt pretty confident that it was completely out of my system. The officer asked if I had anything to drink, I said no. He tested me. Apparently something showed up, and he said I was lying and arrested me. I remember thinking there was no way I was over the legal limit. When I went to court, they made a deal with me that as long as I did community service they would drop all the fines (which are usually like 10,000 dollars). I figured it was a good deal since I already did a ton of volunteering anyway, I never imagined then it would come back to bite me or I would have fought it. So yeah, I was below the legal limit, charge with “less than safe”.
 
Hi,

I’m 38 years old, and going back to school. I have been working with doctors for the past 10 years, and I’ve been dreaming of going back and becoming one. I fulfilled all of my pre-med, pre-req’s and I’m studying for the MCAT now.

But...I’m SO worried that my past will come back to haunt me. Regrettably and horribly, I got a DUI 17 years ago followed by another 10 years ago. No one was injured, there was no accident. Nonetheless it’s horrifying to think that I did such things. I have only had maybe a half of a champaign toast at a New Years eve party, or birthday between then and now, but I basically just stopped drinking all together after the second one, on my own. I never wanted to touch it again. It still makes me sick to think about.

By the time I apply for Medical School it will have been 11-12 year, and 17-19 years since they occurred. I’m hoping against hope I still have a chance. Would anyone know who I could ask, or where I could find this information?
what are your future plans? your record does not preclude medical school or residency, your age probably keeps you out of surgery. I would set aside the starry eyed ideas of being a doctor and look at the reality. Is it financially smart given your 15 years less practice time? Do you want a family? assuming you are male this is still possible, female well thats risky at your age already but still possible. If you are male and wait until residency to have a family, you are going to need a female partner atleast 10 years younger than you or you will be risking having a child with severe developmental issues, you could also adopt. If you have a solid plan for all these drawbacks of starting med school old, go for it. I would do the following

1)Apply to 3-4x as many medical schools as younger applicants, place emphasis on lower competition schools and DO schools because they are much more likely to accept old accplicants. I know a few people who started in late 30's/early 40s and all went to DO schools.
2)Pick cheaper ones if possible
3)Dont do academics
4)Make sure your interview skills are sharp
5)Pick a specialty that makes sense for you, not what sounds cool. I thought Interventional radiology was cool, but I knew my sleep was finiky and the chaotic life wouldn't work for me. Surgery same issue. I am a shrink now, its the best choice I ever made in terms of work.
6)start earning asap, this means selecting residencies that are moonlighting friendly, have low COL relative to wage, and save all your money. Take advantage of physician loan and get yourself a house and rent out the rooms to save money if it cashflows in your region(dont do this in NYC). I did all of this and at a pgy4 level I have 250k in savings and a 100k in equity in my home. Thats without any stock investing ect ect which I kick myself for not doing because the pandemic was an absolute boom for stocks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top