Recent "Minor" Academic Institutional Action and T20 chances... Seeking Advice

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Hi, I'm curious about this. I have a 4.0 GPA and a 522, but I'm not sure if it counts as 'ultra high' on the same level as a 526. Do you have any thoughts on the competitiveness of those stats for stat-loving schools?

I hope the adcoms can see this as an honest mistake with rather minor consequences. I was as transparent as possible in my IA explanation. I applied broadly to top 15, and we'll see how things turn out now that secondaries have started coming in.

I'm also a bit late for this cycle. Not sure how it'll affect my chances. Submitted primary mid-august, verified Sep 1, and now need to get a big move on with the secondaries! Looking to submit most by 2nd or 3rd week of Sep :oops:
Does your program let you apply out, or did you have to drop your acceptance for this?
From what I see here, in general 517 and above seems to fall into a tier of "high". At some point in 52X, score no longer matters. My best guess is above 523 is a tier and 520-523 might be another tier at some extremely high stat schools like NYU. For most schools though, I would guess that above either 518 or 520 is all the same to them.

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Does your program let you apply out, or did you have to drop your acceptance for this?
From what I see here, in general 517 and above seems to fall into a tier of "high". At some point in 52X, score no longer matters. My best guess is above 523 is a tier and 520-523 might be another tier at some extremely high stat schools like NYU. For most schools though, I would guess that above either 518 or 520 is all the same to them.
My program lets me apply out, so I have a few months to decide whether to go with my home med school or another program.

The tiers you mentioned for different scores do sound reasonable. I'm sure most schools' comparison systems for MCAT scores somewhat resemble that.
 
Hi, I'm curious about this. I have a 4.0 GPA and a 522, but I'm not sure if it counts as 'ultra high' on the same level as a 526. Do you have any thoughts on the competitiveness of those stats for stat-loving schools?

I hope the adcoms can see this as an honest mistake with rather minor consequences. I was as transparent as possible in my IA explanation. I applied broadly to top 15, and we'll see how things turn out now that secondaries have started coming in.

I'm also a bit late for this cycle. Not sure how it'll affect my chances. Submitted primary mid-august, verified Sep 1, and now need to get a big move on with the secondaries! Looking to submit most by 2nd or 3rd week of Sep :oops:
I mean honestly the timing of the app might have more of an impact on being accepted than the IA, I wouldn’t be surprised. Just guessing
 
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My program lets me apply out, so I have a few months to decide whether to go with my home med school or another program.

The tiers you mentioned for different scores do sound reasonable. I'm sure most schools' comparison systems for MCAT scores somewhat resemble that.
Yup. I would guess that once you hit 518, any additional boost in MCAT score is small. Once you hit 520, it becomes extremely small, and once you hit 523 it becomes negligible to nothing. Also, I'm looking specifically at top schools for this evaluation (T20, T30).

Also, I mentioned that at most top schools, once you hit 518, it doesn't matter. Just to corroborate, I talked with the Dean of Admissions at Duke, and she told me they have a three tiered system. Any score below 510 is flagged as a concern, and any score below 500 is red flagged as a major concern. Any score above a 510 is treated the same.

Given Duke's 519 average though, I'm not entirely sure I believe this explanation.
 
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I see that Goro just mentioned it too but the last question is kind of a fallacy and it implies that all IAs are the same. They COULD lead you to getting rejected early but it seems to be based on three things.
1) How long ago and/or how severe was the action
2) How the applicant can write about it. This seems to be the most important one. Taking responsibility, writing about how they’ve become stronger, etc.
3) If the applicant is otherwise admissible (I.e. do they have a good GPA and MCAT)

so to answer the last question, I would say neither one. The “bottom of the pile” phrase is one I’ve seen in the past, but from randoms, so probably other premeds

Dr. Ryan Gray has good material regarding IAs and how to address them
I agree. Number 2 seems to be most important. Whatever you do, don’t make any excuses. Completely own it and share how you learned from it.
 
Yup. I would guess that once you hit 518, any additional boost in MCAT score is small. Once you hit 520, it becomes extremely small, and once you hit 523 it becomes negligible to nothing. Also, I'm looking specifically at top schools for this evaluation (T20, T30).

Also, I mentioned that at most top schools, once you hit 518, it doesn't matter. Just to corroborate, I talked with the Dean of Admissions at Duke, and she told me they have a three tiered system. Any score below 510 is flagged as a concern, and any score below 500 is red flagged as a major concern. Any score above a 510 is treated the same.

Given Duke's 519 average though, I'm not entirely sure I believe this explanation.
Since we're discussing non-Duke specific issues in the Duke thread, we might as well discuss Duke here! :)

You should believe Duke's explanation. They have no reason to lie. It comes down to causation versus correlation.

Duke is in a tier of school where it could easily have a 522 median if it wanted to. It doesn't. This is all the proof you need that it doesn't weigh a 524 higher than a 517. Duke's 519 median is nothing more than a reflection of the fact that the super awesome, highly accomplished, superlative applicants that it attracts, accepts and enrolls happen to also disproportionately have high scores. Its median would be even higher if it cared about the MCAT to the extent schools like Penn, Wash U, NYU, etc. do.

Correlation, not causation.
 
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Does your program let you apply out, or did you have to drop your acceptance for this?
From what I see here, in general 517 and above seems to fall into a tier of "high". At some point in 52X, score no longer matters. My best guess is above 523 is a tier and 520-523 might be another tier at some extremely high stat schools like NYU. For most schools though, I would guess that above either 518 or 520 is all the same to them.
No. The only reason I brought that up was because one of the admissions officers at a "stat-loving" school (I think LizzyM) said that their school will take 525+'s as long as they have a pulse b/c of usnews rankings. So no in that case a 522 doesn't fall into that category. If u think about it logically, if you accept 525+ you have a lot more freedom to accept lower MCAT people without hurting the median. Like if you want your median to be a 522, if you accept a 526-528 then you can accept the 515's and 516's and it wouldn't make a much of a difference.

For the person in question they only got into those schools so what LizzyM said lined up.
 
No. The only reason I brought that up was because one of the admissions officers at a "stat-loving" school (I think LizzyM) said that their school will take 525+'s as long as they have a pulse b/c of usnews rankings. So no in that case a 522 doesn't fall into that category. If u think about it logically, if you accept 525+ you have a lot more freedom to accept lower MCAT people without hurting the median. Like if you want your median to be a 522, if you accept a 526-528 then you can accept the 515's and 516's and it wouldn't make a much of a difference.

For the person in question they only got into those schools so what LizzyM said lined up.
That is Means, not medians. Extreme values don’t affect the median.
 
That is Means, not medians. Extreme values don’t affect the median.
This is why I failed C/P the first time...

Anyways I still remember LizzyM saying that, maybe my logic is wrong but could averages be used for other purposes? Does USnews use just the median or does it consider the upper/lower bounds as well?

Also the exact quote was "Some schools will take almost anyone with a 524 [or above] because the MCAT contributes a little bit to USNooze rankings and for some Deans it is all about the ratings."
 
No. The only reason I brought that up was because one of the admissions officers at a "stat-loving" school (I think LizzyM) said that their school will take 525+'s as long as they have a pulse b/c of usnews rankings. So no in that case a 522 doesn't fall into that category. If u think about it logically, if you accept 525+ you have a lot more freedom to accept lower MCAT people without hurting the median. Like if you want your median to be a 522, if you accept a 526-528 then you can accept the 515's and 516's and it wouldn't make a much of a difference.

For the person in question they only got into those schools so what LizzyM said lined up.
I am near certain @LizzyM never said that. Perhaps she could clarify, but that seems to run counter to a lot of other things she has said.
 
I am near certain @LizzyM never said that. Perhaps she could clarify, but that seems to run counter to a lot of other things she has said.
Screen Shot 2021-08-26 at 5.44.24 PM.png
 
Hi, I'm curious about this. I have a 4.0 GPA and a 522, but I'm not sure if it counts as 'ultra high' on the same level as a 526. Do you have any thoughts on the competitiveness of those stats for stat-loving schools?

I hope the adcoms can see this as an honest mistake with rather minor consequences. I was as transparent as possible in my IA explanation. I applied broadly to top 15, and we'll see how things turn out now that secondaries have started coming in.

I'm also a bit late for this cycle. Not sure how it'll affect my chances. Submitted primary mid-august, verified Sep 1, and now need to get a big move on with the secondaries! Looking to submit most by 2nd or 3rd week of Sep :oops:
522 = 526. Once you get to the 95th %ile or higher, they are all the same, given how fee people score this high.
 
Apply and just be honest about what happened
Worst case scenario you get no acceptances and waste a few thousand dollars
However, you might always think about the “what if.” You miss all the shots you don’t take
For the record, even if it’s on an internal conduct record and your school claims they won’t share it, that might not be the case.
I had a successful cycle but had an IA from my freshman year (non-trad applicant so from several years ago) that was supposed to have been “expunged” but I know for a fact at least one of the schools I applied to reached out to one of my deans about it.
You never know how things can go. Rather than lose sleep, better to just explain what happened up front IMO. Good opportunity to show how you are accountable for your actions.
 
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this doesn't sound like an IA.
No institutional level action, and not reported externally.
 
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I do wonder why the aforementioned schools play so around stats. A 520 25th percentile just sounds ridiculous to me. Peer schools like Harvard, Stanford, have 25th percentiles <515. I wonder how many stellar students they miss out by enforcing such crude (definitely not) screening procedures. I guess we'll never know!
 
I do wonder why the aforementioned schools play so around stats. A 520 25th percentile just sounds ridiculous to me. Peer schools like Harvard, Stanford, have 25th percentiles <515. I wonder how many stellar students they miss out by enforcing such crude (definitely not) screening procedures. I guess we'll never know!
"Why" is because it works for them! Harvard and Stanford are really in a class by themselves. NYU seems to be doing just fine doing what it has been doing, and, let's face it, it's not like JHU is going to displace Harvard on the prestige scale if it starts chasing stellar students <515 while passing on more 520+ applicants.

These are all T10ish schools we are talking about here. They all have their priorities in assembling a class, and none of them have to change anything in an effort to jump a tier, other than, maybe, trying to replicate what NYU did by raising enough money to go tuition free. THAT seems to have changed the game for NYU more than any move toward a more holistic review has radically changed things at Harvard, UCSF, UCLA, etc. (other than, of course, for the people directly benefiting from the reduced emphasis on stats).
 
"Why" is because it works for them! Harvard and Stanford are really in a class by themselves. NYU seems to be doing just fine doing what it has been doing, and, let's face it, it's not like JHU is going to displace Harvard on the prestige scale if it starts chasing stellar students <515 while passing on more 520+ applicants.

These are all T10ish schools we are talking about here. They all have their priorities in assembling a class, and none of them have to change anything in an effort to jump a tier, other than, maybe, trying to replicate what NYU did by raising enough money to go tuition free. THAT seems to have changed the game for NYU more than any move toward a more holistic review has radically changed things at Harvard, UCSF, UCLA, etc. (other than, of course, for the people directly benefiting from the reduced emphasis on stats).
I mean you have to wonder how many people are even applying to those schools who have a <~516. I'd wager if you are applying to T10s with a score that far from the median, you have something somewhat worth looking at on your application. It's not like college where 30k people apply to every ivy league and T20 just because they can and it's easy and screening actually makes sense...

On top of that, USNews uses medians, so screening the minority of applicants applying to NYU with a <515 makes no sense because admitting them would literally not move the median a single bit. It just seems overly pretentious and frankly stupid. It's a direct antithesis to what it means to be holistic, especially when contextualizing the impact of NOT screening versus screening. On top of that, it's not like you are replacing a 520+ applicant with a 515 if you admit both? Maybe NYU is an extreme cause because I'd guess everyone who is admitted there attends because of free $$$, but for other stat schools it's not like every acceptance = attending.

I mean if NYU can afford tuition-free classes, then I'm sure they have the resources to accommodate a few more readers....lol
 
522 = 526. Once you get to the 95th %ile or higher, they are all the same, given how fee people score this high.
At stat lovin’ NYU (as @Pyroman asked), the 522 /4.0 is pretty much median, whereas the 526/4.0 is more like 75-90th percentile.
 
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I mean you have to wonder how many people are even applying to those schools who have a <~516. I'd wager if you are applying to T10s with a score that far from the median, you have something somewhat worth looking at on your application. It's not like college where 30k people apply to every ivy league and T20 just because they can and it's easy and screening actually makes sense...

On top of that, USNews uses medians, so screening the minority of applicants applying to NYU with a <515 makes no sense because admitting them would literally not move the median a single bit. It just seems overly pretentious and frankly stupid. It's a direct antithesis to what it means to be holistic, especially when contextualizing the impact of NOT screening versus screening. On top of that, it's not like you are replacing a 520+ applicant with a 515 if you admit both? Maybe NYU is an extreme cause because I'd guess everyone who is admitted there attends because of free $$$, but for other stat schools it's not like every acceptance = attending.

I mean if NYU can afford tuition-free classes, then I'm sure they have the resources to accommodate a few more readers....lol
You're losing me with some of your points. I think we agree on holistic reviews -- they mean different things to different schools, and some schools employ them more enthusiastically while others seem to just pay them lip service. Again, my point is that these are all great schools, and whatever it is they are doing seems to work for them.

"Pretentious and stupid" seems like a harsh assessment. The person who worked hard to be in the 100%-ile stat-wise might think it's stupid, if not pretentious, to weigh ECs that could easily be exaggerated or flat out fabricated over a very difficult, nationally administered entrance examination and a 4+ year body of academic work, so, YMMV, and, obviously, different schools weigh different attributes differently.

Finally, I really don't get where you are coming from with respect to a 515 not replacing a 520+. There are a finite number of seats at every school. Every person in a seat, at every school, took that seat from someone else.

Lowering a 25%-ile from 520 to 515 or below will literally mean 25% of the class with scores at or above 520 will be eliminated and replaced with people at 515 or below. You have to be accepted to attend. To drive down the 25%-ile, you'd have to accept fewer people 520+ and accept more people 515 and below, pretty much on a one-for-one basis, after taking into account the fact that the <515 yield at T10 schools would probably be a little higher than 520+.
 
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You're losing me with some of your points. I think we agree on holistic reviews -- they mean different things to different schools, and some schools employ them more enthusiastically while others seem to just pay them lip service. Again, my point is that these are all great schools, and whatever it is they are doing seems to work for them.

"Pretentious and stupid" seems like a harsh assessment. The person who worked hard to be in the 100%-ile stat-wise might think it's stupid, if not pretentious, to weigh ECs that could easily be exaggerated or flat out fabricated over a very difficult, nationally administered entrance examination and a 4+ year body of academic work, so, YMMV, and, obviously, different schools weigh different attributes differently.

Finally, I really don't get where you are coming from with respect to a 515 not replacing a 520+. There are a finite number of seats at every school. Every person in a seat, at every school, took that seat from someone else.

Lowering a 25%-ile from 520 to 515 or below will literally mean 25% of the class with scores at or above 520 will be eliminated and replaced with people at 515 or below. You have to be accepted to attend. To drive down the 25%-ile, you'd have to accept fewer people 520+ and accept more people 515 and below, pretty much on a one-for-one basis, after taking into account the fact that the <515 yield at T10 schools would probably be a little higher than 520+.
Maybe I was just thinking outloud sorry.

Anyways I'm not advocating for moving the 25th percentile down to 510 or anything. I'm just against objective screening. I don't think many 515's would even get admitted if they were seen but there's definitely plenty of stellar ones that would be 100% worth taking over some cookie-cutter ECs 4.0/524+.
 
"Pretentious and stupid" seems like a harsh assessment. The person who worked hard to be in the 100%-ile stat-wise might think it's stupid, if not pretentious, to weigh ECs that could easily be exaggerated or flat out fabricated over a very difficult, nationally administered entrance examination and a 4+ year body of academic work, so, YMMV, and, obviously, different schools weigh different attributes differently.
I worked hard to get a 100% percentile score after scoring a 515 the month before (I retook) and I think it's stupid lol. Exam day fluctuations are often responsible for 90th and especially 95th+ percentile scores and it's stupid to literally screen ORMs without a 97th percentile score or whatever they do these days.

Also ECs that would truly allow a 513 MCAT or something to get into a school like NYU would not be fabricatable (is that a word? :) )
 
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I’ve had some open note exams. The definition is there in the title of the exercise. Open NOTE, or open BOOK, which would presumably include notes. I would never think that an open note/book exam would mean you’re allowed access to all the resources of the world, videos, etc. apparently up to anything short of copying another student? I wouldn’t be kind to that applicant. This seems like something one should know before taking an exam. However I’m not an ADCOM, so you can still apply here. Be lucky there’s not a real honor code. I don’t think they’d be kind to you either. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
 
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So many posts for such an easy answer. You have an acceptance to med school in hand. If you want to apply to an abstract group of the “top twenty”. ( whatever that means), then apply. No one knows how a trivial IA will affect your app. Just try. And be assured, the vast majority of physicians do just fine regardless of what the editors of USNWR or parents think and none of us ( old, seasoned doctors) will care where you went to medical school.
GENERALLY, unless you are uber academic and have a huge ego and need that ego reinforced by peers of similar ilk, going to a NAME med school is not going to add much, if anything, to a 30-35 year practice career. I realize I am not one of your peers and I understand premed anxiety but I do have a 48 year lead over what you are going thru now which is a LOOOONG perspective (U of ILL Chicago ‘77)
You will be a fine physician.
 
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So many posts for such an easy answer. You have an acceptance to med school in hand. If you want to apply to an abstract group of the “top twenty”. ( whatever that means), then apply. No one knows how a trivial IA will affect your app. Just try. And be assured, the vast majority of physicians do just fine regardless of what the editors of USNWR or parents think and none of us ( old, seasoned doctors) will care where you went to medical school.
GENERALLY, unless you are uber academic and have a huge ego and need that ego reinforced by peers of similar ilk, going to a NAME med school is not going to add much, if anything, to a 30-35 year practice career. I realize I am not one of your peers and I understand premed anxiety but I do have a 48 year lead over what you are going thru now which is a LOOOONG perspective (U of ILL Chicago ‘77)
You will be a fine physician.
I do wonder how times have changed, though. My anesthesiologist with at least two decades of experience told me his old MCAT score converted wouldn't even get him into DO school these days, and he barely passed his boards and still matched into one of his top residency choices within his preferred field.
 
I don't recall saying anything of the sort, and certainly don't think those schools would be desperate by any means. My intent was to apply T20 given my credentials thinking I would have a good shot, so that's what I centered my question around. I have an acceptance in hand, but having worked hard to have a good profile in undergrad I figured I'd try my luck at more competitive schools. That's not to say other schools would be more forgiving but perhaps given the average applicant's score and GPA is lower than at the highest ranked schools, something like this would be more likely to be overlooked if the rest of the application was solid. If Albany or Drexel could fill their class 3x over with 4.0s and 528s, I'm sure they would be just as picky with their applicants.

Do you have any thoughts on what is advisable in my situation? How are my chances likely impacted given an incident of this nature?
When you explain this IA in your applications, I hope your essay sounds more remorseful than your postings do on this thread.
While it is clear you are upset, you still have a lot of statements still hinting it wasn't your fault, like talking about which part of the syllabus this rule was printed in, and that "it doesn't seem that bad".
 
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I do wonder how times have changed, though. My anesthesiologist with at least two decades of experience told me his old MCAT score converted wouldn't even get him into DO school these days, and he barely passed his boards and still matched into one of his top residency choices within his preferred field.

The entire process of applying today seems FAR more onerous than in 1973. All they looked at was my GPA, MCAT and any letters of recommendation. There were none of these other myriad requirements for volunteering, clinical experience, shadowing. Nada. No “secondaries” whatever they are and interviews were not universal by any means. Also, folks generally applied to only a handful/few schools.
I never got interviewed. Only the academic requirements were rigorous.

As an aside, over cycles of several years, some specialties are “hot” and kinda tough to get into while others will take anyone. A “hot” one may turn very cold. Look at psych, path, rad onc, pm&r.
 
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So many posts for such an easy answer. You have an acceptance to med school in hand. If you want to apply to an abstract group of the “top twenty”. ( whatever that means), then apply. No one knows how a trivial IA will affect your app. Just try. And be assured, the vast majority of physicians do just fine regardless of what the editors of USNWR or parents think and none of us ( old, seasoned doctors) will care where you went to medical school.
GENERALLY, unless you are uber academic and have a huge ego and need that ego reinforced by peers of similar ilk, going to a NAME med school is not going to add much, if anything, to a 30-35 year practice career. I realize I am not one of your peers and I understand premed anxiety but I do have a 48 year lead over what you are going thru now which is a LOOOONG perspective (U of ILL Chicago ‘77)
You will be a fine physician.
I'm just as surprised that this post is still getting traction! Thank you for the longer scale perspective on my situation, sometimes we get in our heads as premeds especially with all of the pressure to compete and stand out among a huge crowd. While objectively minor, this psyched me out for a while as I was convinced it would kill an otherwise good application. I am so thankful to be able to go to a medical school regardless, and I promise I am not as neurotic in person-- it's only on SDN!
 
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When you explain this IA in your applications, I hope your essay sounds more remorseful than your postings do on this thread.
While it is clear you are upset, you still have a lot of statements still hinting it wasn't your fault, like talking about which part of the syllabus this rule was printed in, and that "it doesn't seem that bad".
I definitely was more remorseful and thoughtful in my statement, and definitely do still feel bad about this whole thing months later. I wanted to elaborate the nuances of the situation and circumstances to inform people on this forum, which is why my discussion here sounds a little dry and making excuses. I understand that there is no excuse at the end of the day, and that for physicians there is an extremely low tolerance for lapses in judgment and mistakes committed out of ignorance. I did not intend to come across that way to you all.
 
I definitely was more remorseful and thoughtful in my statement, and definitely do still feel bad about this whole thing months later. I wanted to elaborate the nuances of the situation and circumstances to inform people on this forum, which is why my discussion here sounds a little dry and making excuses. I understand that there is no excuse at the end of the day, and that for physicians there is an extremely low tolerance for lapses in judgment and mistakes committed out of ignorance. I did not intend to come across that way to you all.
Have you gotten an II from your target schools?
 
WHAT! Her “target” school should be the acceptance in her hand, a difficult target to hit indeed.
Her target schools as in the schools she is targetting (which are T20).
 
I'm just as surprised that this post is still getting traction! Thank you for the longer scale perspective on my situation, sometimes we get in our heads as premeds especially with all of the pressure to compete and stand out among a huge crowd. While objectively minor, this psyched me out for a while as I was convinced it would kill an otherwise good application. I am so thankful to be able to go to a medical school regardless, and I promise I am not as neurotic in person-- it's only on SDN!
It’s pretty common to have that feeling of anxiety when someone has an IA. Although if your home school knows about it and still retained your automatic acceptance, then I think that should give hope to premeds with an academic-related, hopefully unintentional IA, they definitely still can get into medical school. Obviously the way you write about it on the app is the most important, and that will go a long way. Congratulations though
 
Her target schools as in the schools she is targetting (which are T20).

Only, and I repeat only would a premed student give that response. The days of “targets”are done for her. She has already scored a ten. Nothing to shoot at if you have a bullseye, unless you want to waste lots of expensive “ ammo”.

You do not yet realize the the “target” is a medical school acceptance. You and too many darned parents, editors and other students who drank the kool aid think there are magical tiers of schools which will separate you from the crowd for the next 40 years. When you have done it and when you are there, NO ONE CARES where you go/went to any American school. But, what do I know?
 
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Only, and I repeat only would a premed student give that response. The days of “targets”are done for her. She has already scored a ten. Nothing to shoot at if you have a bullseye, unless you want to waste lots of expensive “ ammo”.

You do not yet realize the the “target” is a medical school acceptance. You and too many darned parents, editors and other students who drank the kool aid think there are magical tiers of schools which will separate you from the crowd for the next 40 years. When you have done it and when you are there, NO ONE CARES where you go/went to any American school. But, what do I know?
With all due respect, as someone who has been a member for more than ten years, you should know the lingo of reach/target/safety when referring to schools. Many of us recognize that there is rarely such a thing as a safety but to say that there are no targets is to say that everything is a reach and if she already has an offer of admission, she should want for nothing else. Some people may want to at least be able to say, "I was good enough to get an offer from [top school] but I chose [home institution] because it....." It is fine to be a graduate of UIC but some people would like to be able to say that they turned down Stanford to attend it.
 
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Only, and I repeat only would a premed student give that response. The days of “targets”are done for her. She has already scored a ten. Nothing to shoot at if you have a bullseye, unless you want to waste lots of expensive “ ammo”.

You do not yet realize the the “target” is a medical school acceptance. You and too many darned parents, editors and other students who drank the kool aid think there are magical tiers of schools which will separate you from the crowd for the next 40 years. When you have done it and when you are there, NO ONE CARES where you go/went to any American school. But, what do I know?
I also completely disagree that no one cares where you went to school. When my mom needed her cancer excised she felt much more relieved when she found out her surgeon graduated from Penn. I see judgement very frequently towards doctors based on where they graduated.

Perhaps by no one, you mean, no doctor. That may very well be true. But many patients certainly consider it, especially with cosmetics dermatology and plastics at higher end private practice, which are two fields I am most interested in and many doctors within those fields attest to. Not even to mention that higher tier schools often help secure better residencies, although this is certainly a subject of debate.
 
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The vast majority of patients would be hard-pressed to to Rattle off 10 American Medical Schools, much less name the ones at the tippy top of the list.

What Mike was getting at is that once you are an attending, it doesn't matter whether you went to a ACOM or Yale, John A Burns for UNECOM, University of Washington or University of Miami.... your salary will be the same.
 
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The vast majority of patients would be hard-pressed to to Rattle off 10 American Medical Schools, much less name the ones at the tippy top of the list.

What Mike was getting at is that once you are an attending, it doesn't matter whether you went to a ACOM or Yale, John A Burns for UNECOM, University of Washington or University of Miami.... your salary will be the same.

But some lay people know the reputations of their local universities (not even the medical school but the university itself) and will be impressed with that over some off-shore school or a top tier school that is geographically far away. And it is easier than ever with the internet to find out where a doctor went to med school. Might not matter for anesthesiology or neonatology (not like you get much of a choice) but for elective surgery and OB-GYN it might make a difference in filling one's appointment book.
 
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With all due respect, as someone who has been a member for more than ten years, you should know the lingo of reach/target/safety when referring to schools. Many of us recognize that there is rarely such a thing as a safety but to say that there are no targets is to say that everything is a reach and if she already has an offer of admission, she should want for nothing else. Some people may want to at least be able to say, "I was good enough to get an offer from [top school] but I chose [home institution] because it....." It is fine to be a graduate of UIC but some people would like to be able to say that they turned down Stanford to attend it.

I know the difference, but if she has an acceptance she SHOULD want for nothing else.
The bit about “sure i graduated from UIC but turned down Stanford” represents the most superficial type of self affirmation I can imagine. I don’t want self absorbed egotists in this field. Do you? Medical school is the very beginning of a 35-40 yr + process and students only learn the very FUNDAMENTAL aspects of medicine common to all physicians. You and I know that a person walking out of med school is an MD or DO in name only. Residencies, fellowships and, ESPECIALLY independent practice experience, which is no longer possible to obtain in the current educational system, is the thing that will drive their future. Not 4 years of basic training.
 
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I know the difference, but if she has an acceptance she SHOULD want for nothing else.
The bit about “sure i graduated from UIC but turned down Stanford” represents the most superficial type of self affirmation I can imagine. I don’t want self absorbed egotists in this field. Do you? Medical school is the very beginning of a 35-40 yr + process and students only learn the very FUNDAMENTAL aspects of medicine common to all physicians. You and I know that a person walking out of med school is an MD or DO in name only. Residencies, fellowships and, ESPECIALLY independent practice experience, which is no longer possible to obtain in the current educational system, is the thing that will drive their future. Not 4 years of basic training.
I hear you, but you're not seriously suggesting we should all withdraw all of our applications as soon as we receive our first acceptance, are you? If not, why shouldn't OP apply out if it's allowed by the program? What's the difference?
 
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I know the difference, but if she has an acceptance she SHOULD want for nothing else.
The bit about “sure i graduated from UIC but turned down Stanford” represents the most superficial type of self affirmation I can imagine. I don’t want self absorbed egotists in this field. Do you? Medical school is the very beginning of a 35-40 yr + process and students only learn the very FUNDAMENTAL aspects of medicine common to all physicians. You and I know that a person walking out of med school is an MD or DO in name only. Residencies, fellowships and, ESPECIALLY independent practice experience, which is no longer possible to obtain in the current educational system, is the thing that will drive their future. Not 4 years of basic training.

Some people do measure their value (or that of their offspring) by the name on the acceptance letter. I'm not judging, but I see this in this forum and it appears to be more important in some cultures than others. Saying that we don't want "self-absorbed egotists" in the field comes close to value judgement about one culture over another and I, for one, don't want to go there. Some cultures that highly prize academic achievement also highly prize "name brand" schools and elite institutions and I can't see excluding people from medical school for something so superficial as a cultural bias toward T-20s.
 
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LizzyM, I will grant that my perspective is much different than other physicians who had their histories examined with a fine-toothed comb, because I was a pathologist (although I did a clinical internship in the “good old days” and a couple years of gp). It may well have a higher significance to my clinician colleagues. Darned few people knew who it was who diagnosed their cancer. The majority, I am quite sure, thought it was their surgeon, etc!
And, I applauded you for the years of effort you have devoted to trying to help the bright young folks on this board with your expertise. You do it out of selflessness and you deserve the undying gratitude of the prospective students.
As to your cultural reference, it had zero impact on my comments. Perhaps it should have, but it did not. When you
are 70 yo with the decades behind me that I have had, medical school is medical school, college is college and high school is high school.
 
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I hear you, but you're not seriously suggesting we should all withdraw all of our applications as soon as we receive our first acceptance, are you? If not, why shouldn't OP apply out if it's allowed by the program? What's the difference?

You have a point and, I believe, a very valid one. On the other hand, consider the analogy of roulette.

You scatter 12, $100 chips over 12 separate numbers. ANY one you hit ( and they were all YOUR choices) makes you a 35 to 1 winner and you lose the other 11 grand. You have done very well among YOUR choices. I would immediately cash out after that one spin.
 
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You have a point and, I believe, a very valid one. On the other hand, consider the analogy of roulette.

You scatter 12, $100 chips over 12 separate numbers. ANY one you hit ( and they were all YOUR choices) makes you a 35 to 1 winner and you lose the other 11 grand. You have done very well among YOUR choices. I would immediately cash out after that one spin.
In a world where Harvard really equaled Kutztown State, you'd be right, but that's not the world we live in.

To some, NY is more attractive than Cleveland, and #3 is more attractive than #73. Moreover, and this where the rubber really hits the road, more acceptances means more opportunities at merit scholarships, that can often be used to leverage discounts at your top choice, even if that turns out to be the first school that accepted you.

In fact, unless you have tremendous demonstrable financial need and have an acceptance at your top choice that has a very generous financial aid budget, THIS is the very reason people soldier on after receiving an acceptance at a school they'd be very happy at. Beyond ego and prestige, this is likely another reason OP is applying out.
 
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