Referral: Medicaid, Fibro, EDS, PTSD...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow an epidemic of EDS has been forming that can only be solved with extremely high dosages of narcotic medications!

Wow what a coincidence!


No one said it's the only way to treat the symptoms of EDS. If you start treating symptoms sooner than you can help prevent some damage to the bone, nerves, muscles and cartilage. Proper PT/OT can help minimize damage done, also managing actual nerve pain and muscle pain with other non narcotic meds. Proper bracing can help with prevent some of the subluxations and dislocations. Again you haven't taken any time to look at EDS. Clearly you are another egotistical person that has the dr/pa GOD complex. Sit back, shut up and listen a minute. If you diagnose EDS and actually treat the symptoms early you can find ways to stay away from opioids for a good while. I have done some of my own research and not all EDSers take opioids all the time. Some only take them when truly needed, for example after surgery or a bad dislocation. If you dislocated something you would want some sort of pain meds. If a pasient has hEDS they could have multiple subluxations and dislocations in a day. Do like many others and I are doing. It's called putting yourself in their shoes. Image the feeling of just opening a car door and dislocating a shoulder or waking up with your hip out of place.

There are reports saying that some EDS patients have pain that is worse than some cancer patients go through.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20579833/

Literally says pain management is a big part of treatment of EDS.

That is only the hEDS/ Hypermobility Type but there are other forms of EDS so yeah you might want to read up on the basics. You could kill someone by not know vascular type and they dissect an aorta.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The idea that an illness that was once 1: 250-500K is now a 1:5000 diagnosis is just BS. And let me tell you that MS, lupus, ALS and Marfans are not rare and....wait for it....we can actually test for these conditions. Call me crazy or callous but saying a patient has EDS based on a series of vague complaints and some findings of hypermobility without showing me a validated diagnostic genetic test is absurd. And even developing a genetic test that says this person has a point mutation in this gene causing x is difficult considering such things as variable expression, penetrance, SNPs, etc.

You can test for EDS, there's genetic testing for all forms but one and the one you can't "test" for has criteria that is used to diagnose it. Please do your research before making yourself look ignorant.
 
Here are the 6 major types:

Hypermobility Type
Classical Type
Vascular Type
Kyphoscoliosis Type
Arthrochalasia Type
Dermatosparaxis Type
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The Emperor’s New Clothes

In his famous story, “The Emperor’s New Clothes,” Danish
author Hans Christian Andersen tells of an emperor,
vain and pompous, who is scammed by rogues who tell
him that that they can weave him royal regalia made of a
cloth so exquisite and fine that no one can see it but the
most competent and intelligent of persons.
When the scoundrels mime draping him in this miraculous
fabric, he stands naked, but no one—including
the emperor himself— dare say so, for fear that they will be
thought to be stupid and inept. It isn’t until the Emperor
parades proudly through the streets unclothed that a child
cries out (the only person to do so in a large crowd of
cheering subjects) that the emperor is naked.
Recently, as an attending physician on an internal
medicine housestaff inpatient teaching service, I saw a
middle-aged woman who had been transferred to us from
the orthopedics floor after yet another in a series of episodes
of septic arthritis. She smiled at me when, between
short periodic bouts of weeping and writhing, she told me
that she had had “over 40 operations” on the currently
affected knee alone, as well as at least 20 surgeries on other
joints and various other parts of her body. She had total
body pain, she said, and had spent much of the last 20 to
30 years of her life being recurrently hospitalized and operated
on.
“Why do you think you have had so much trouble?” I
asked her.
“I have Ehlers–Danlos,” she answered. “I guess I’m
just susceptible. That’s what the doctors told me.”
She had no family history of hypermobility syndromes
nor, on my examination, did she have any evident physical
findings of Ehlers–Danlos syndrome variants (which are all
due to genetically variable defective connective tissue) and
generally a clinical diagnosis. It was impossible for me to
test even the few remaining unoperated joints of her hands
and feet for hypermobility, as she cried out in pain at the
merest touch. Her skin was not velvety, nor was it abnormally
stretchable. There was no bruising of her skin, and
her multiple surgical scars seemed to have healed normally;
they were not wide or nodular. Her hard palate was not
high arched, and her feet were not flat.
Did she indeed have Ehlers–Danlos syndrome? Indeed,
every note previously written in the electronic medical
record (EMR) throughout her multiple admissions recorded
it as her history and included it in her long list of
final diagnoses, but not a single one of these notes detailed
any aspects of physical examination that suggested that
those who wrote them (attendings, residents, fellows, medical
students, or nurses) had actually looked for it. Many of
these physical examination notes, both initial and daily
follow-up, which were written during any one of her many
hospitalizations, were identical, almost word for word (except
for the specific joint in peril at the time), although
they were supposedly written by different people on different
days.
It seems that no one at any level of expertise, at least as
was recorded in our EMR, had ever seriously questioned
the diagnosis of Ehlers–Danlos syndrome. There was one
distant note by a medical resident who saw her on an
emergency department visit that added something new in
social history, which was that the patient had begun training
to be a nurse but never graduated. Was he thinking, as
I was, of Munchausen syndrome?
If so, why did he not
specify the positive and negative physical findings for
Ehlers–Danlos syndrome, the underlying disease that she
claimed was the root source of her problems?
My third-year medical student assigned to this patient
gave me her written admission workup to critique, which I
did. There it was again—“Ehlers–Danlos”— both in the
history and in the diagnosis list, but not in physical
examination.
“Tell me about the Ehlers–Danlos syndromes,” I asked
her. She had done her reading and rattled off a highly
competent summary of what she had learned.
“What makes you think this patient has an Ehlers–
Danlos syndrome?” I asked.” You’ve just told me—and
very well—the characteristic findings on PE, but they appear
nowhere, either as positives or negatives, in your physical
examination. Why not?”
She seemed a bit stunned by my question. “I looked
for them, but I couldn’t see them” she answered.
“Then why did you say she had it?”
“You know, I wondered about it, but everybody else
seemed to think she had it.” She threw up her hands and
stomped her foot, angry at herself. “I know that I should
have said something! But I’m just a student, and I didn’t
want to seem stupid.”
The EMR is a wonderful but dangerous tool. Its capacity
for efficient redundancy or, more perniciously, overt
and unedited cut-and-paste from previous notes, allows
doctors—either pressed for time or uncertain of themselves
(as even very good doctors continually are)—to simply replicate
their previous notes or parrot the antecedent notes of
another clinician. This poses an increasingly particular
danger for medical students, who tend to believe that everybody
else must know more than they do. Yet, it is a
hazard not just for students, but for all of us. Uncritical
acceptance of what others have said is not a new phenomenon
in medicine, but it has been much facilitated by the
EMR, a real-world equivalent of the clever huckster weavers
of Andersen’s story. His was a cautionary tale, and we
should take a lesson from it: It is only by using our own
senses and minds and taking the time to record only our
own accurate findings and thoughts—and having the ethical
imperative and courage to do so—that we can serve
our patients well.
On Being a Doctor Annals of Internal Medicine
396 © 2012 American College of Physicians
Although I spoke to my team and wrote in my EMR
attending notes of my doubts, recording my physical examinations
as specifically showing no current findings for
Ehlers–Danlos and suggesting a possible alternative diagnosis
of Munchausen syndrome, I saw no major change of
content in a large number of the subsequent EMR notes by
a variety of other writers. Maybe, unlike the child at the
emperor’s parade in Hans Christian Andersen’s story, I did
not cry out loudly enough to be heard by the crowd.
Faith T. Fitzgerald, MD
University of California, Davis, Medical Center
Sacramento, CA 95817
Requests for Single Reprints: Faith T. Fitzgerald, MD, University of
California, Davis, Medical Center, Division of General Medicine, 4150 V
Street, Suite 2400, Sacramento, CA 95817; e-mail, bioethics@ucdmc
.ucdavis.edu.
Ann Intern Med. 2012;156:396-397.
The Emperor’s New Clothes On Being a Doctor
www.annals.org 6 March 2012 Annals of Internal Medicine Volume 156 • Number 5 397
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Actually sidenote:
1.) A few of us are published medical researchers
2.) Are being civil, polite and collaborative as well as providing information that could easily be obtained via pubmed or google scholar search with refined terminology
3.) Opiods are actually not always effective in connective tissue disorder patients due to CYP 450 allelic variations either making them lacking responsiveness to medications acting through this pathway aka most opiates and therefore a combination of treatments is usually approached where opiates are adjuvant however highly necessary as an option for those patients where they work - in instances of CRPS development which has a high incidence.

(Recent webseminar available at chronicpainpartners.com if the term CRPS is searched - a rather solid source of seminars and information for complex disorders that can be comorbid with Ehlers Danlos. Recommend the recent presentation by Castori as well which calls for Multidisciplinary approaches to pain care).

So yes. Pain management cannot exclude opiates for connective tissue disorders - but at the same time often they are ineffective in a large proportion and the CYP450 panel testing would be recommended as per articles https://www.practicalpainmanagement...chrome-p450-testing-high-dose-opioid-patients
https://www.practicalpainmanagement...s/non-responsive-pain-patients-cyp-2d6-defect
https://www.practicalpainmanagement...ome-patients-require-high-dose-opioid-therapy
 

Attachments

  • EOOD-2016 (2).pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 54
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
thanks for the links. I disagree with your last point, however.

fwiw, there is little to no evidence to suggest that FMS patients benefit from chronic opioid therapy. they should not receive it.

if EDS is similar, then probably by default patients with EDS should not receive chronic opioid therapy.

CYP450 panel testing has not shown to be beneficial in any way shape or form (except to increase the likelihood of overdose of doctor sanctioning, imo)

(the writer of your posts is renowned for specious claims about high dose opioid therapy with no justification. its well known he has posted about genetic testing before).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
To all the recent non doctor posters. You're not physicians just another patient who thinks they know more than a physician who spent over a decade in training.
Sorry but science trumps your emotions. This forum is for professional scientists and physicians, not wannabes. Please go haunt some patient blog.

Science also trumps ignorant doctors who don't bother learning it. If you all were the science experts you'd like to mislead the public to believe, medical negligence wouldn't be a leading cause of death in the US. But just as many of you can't be bothered to even wash your hands, many can't be bothered to educate themselves on nil understood, less common conditions or foster compassion and empathy.

I'm glad this string of messages is on public display so lay people can see what many of you are really made of.
 

Attachments

  • 45365.png
    45365.png
    33.6 KB · Views: 61
thanks for the links. I disagree with your last point, however.

fwiw, there is little to no evidence to suggest that FMS patients benefit from chronic opioid therapy. they should not receive it.

if EDS is similar, then probably by default patients with EDS should not receive chronic opioid therapy.

CYP450 panel testing has not shown to be beneficial in any way shape or form (except to increase the likelihood of overdose of doctor sanctioning, imo)

(the writer of your posts is renowned for specious claims about high dose opioid therapy with no justification. its well known he has posted about genetic testing before).


EDS is the result of defective connective tissue and opiates are included in the standard of care. There is no known cause behind fibro and no basis to default tx of EDS to tx of fibro.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510683/

Munchausen by Internet: Current Research and Future Directions

Monitoring Editor: Gunther Eysenbach
Reviewed by Professor Monica Whitty, Tom Buchanen, and Marc Feldman
Andy Pulman, MA
corrauth.gif
1 and Jacqui Taylor, BSC, MSc, PhD2
1School of Health & Social Care, Bournemouth University, Bournemouth, United Kingdom
2School of Design, Engineering & Computing, Psychology Research Centre, Bournemouth University, Bournemouth, United Kingdom
Andy Pulman, School of Health & Social Care, Bournemouth University, Royal London House, Christchurch Road, Bournemouth, BH1 3LT, United Kingdom, Phone: 44 1202 962749, Fax: 44 1202 962736, Email: ku.ca.htuomenruob@namlupa.


Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►

Go to:
Abstract
Background
The Internet has revolutionized the health world, enabling self-diagnosis and online support to take place irrespective of time or location. Alongside the positive aspects for an individual’s health from making use of the Internet, debate has intensified on how the increasing use of Web technology might have a negative impact on patients, caregivers, and practitioners. One such negative health-related behavior is Munchausen by Internet.

Objective
Munchausen by Internet occurs when medically well individuals fake recognized illnesses in virtual environments, such as online support groups. This paper focuses on the aspect of Munchausen by Internet in which individuals actively seek to disrupt groups for their own satisfaction, which has not yet been associated with the wider phenomena of Internet trolls (users who post with the intention of annoying someone or disrupting an online environment).

Methods
A wide-ranging review was conducted to investigate the causes and impacts of online identity deception and Munchausen by Internet drawing on academic research and case studies reported online and in the media.

Results
The limited research relating to motivation, opportunity, detection, effects, and consequences of Munchausen by Internet is highlighted and it is formally linked to aspects of trolling. Case studies are used to illustrate the phenomenon. What is particularly worrying is the ease with which the deception can be carried out online, the difficulty in detection, and the damaging impact and potential danger to isolated victims.

Conclusions
We suggest ways to deal with Munchausen by Internet and provide advice for health group facilitators. We also propose that Munchausen by Internet and Munchausen by Internet trolling should be formally acknowledged in a revised version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual DSM-5. This will assist in effectively identifying and minimizing the growth of this behavior as more people seek reassurance and support about their health in the online environment. We also suggest directions for future research.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510683/

Munchausen by Internet: Current Research and Future Directions

Monitoring Editor: Gunther Eysenbach
Reviewed by Professor Monica Whitty, Tom Buchanen, and Marc Feldman
Andy Pulman, MA
corrauth.gif
1 and Jacqui Taylor, BSC, MSc, PhD2
1School of Health & Social Care, Bournemouth University, Bournemouth, United Kingdom
2School of Design, Engineering & Computing, Psychology Research Centre, Bournemouth University, Bournemouth, United Kingdom
Andy Pulman, School of Health & Social Care, Bournemouth University, Royal London House, Christchurch Road, Bournemouth, BH1 3LT, United Kingdom, Phone: 44 1202 962749, Fax: 44 1202 962736, Email: ku.ca.htuomenruob@namlupa.


Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►

Go to:
Abstract
Background
The Internet has revolutionized the health world, enabling self-diagnosis and online support to take place irrespective of time or location. Alongside the positive aspects for an individual’s health from making use of the Internet, debate has intensified on how the increasing use of Web technology might have a negative impact on patients, caregivers, and practitioners. One such negative health-related behavior is Munchausen by Internet.

Objective
Munchausen by Internet occurs when medically well individuals fake recognized illnesses in virtual environments, such as online support groups. This paper focuses on the aspect of Munchausen by Internet in which individuals actively seek to disrupt groups for their own satisfaction, which has not yet been associated with the wider phenomena of Internet trolls (users who post with the intention of annoying someone or disrupting an online environment).

Methods
A wide-ranging review was conducted to investigate the causes and impacts of online identity deception and Munchausen by Internet drawing on academic research and case studies reported online and in the media.

Results
The limited research relating to motivation, opportunity, detection, effects, and consequences of Munchausen by Internet is highlighted and it is formally linked to aspects of trolling. Case studies are used to illustrate the phenomenon. What is particularly worrying is the ease with which the deception can be carried out online, the difficulty in detection, and the damaging impact and potential danger to isolated victims.

Conclusions
We suggest ways to deal with Munchausen by Internet and provide advice for health group facilitators. We also propose that Munchausen by Internet and Munchausen by Internet trolling should be formally acknowledged in a revised version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual DSM-5. This will assist in effectively identifying and minimizing the growth of this behavior as more people seek reassurance and support about their health in the online environment. We also suggest directions for future research.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The patient the OP inquired about has a medical diagnosis of EDS in her chart. She did not self diagnose. You are simply a bully and old dog who doesn't want to learn. I feel sorry for your patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
thanks for the links. I disagree with your last point, however.

fwiw, there is little to no evidence to suggest that FMS patients benefit from chronic opioid therapy. they should not receive it.

if EDS is similar, then probably by default patients with EDS should not receive chronic opioid therapy.

CYP450 panel testing has not shown to be beneficial in any way shape or form (except to increase the likelihood of overdose of doctor sanctioning, imo)

(the writer of your posts is renowned for specious claims about high dose opioid therapy with no justification. its well known he has posted about genetic testing before).
Can only state anecdotally that many EDS patients have little to no response at first or second exposure to opiods - which seems....odd. however much like the henderson et al 2017 paper on Neurological symptoms in EDS notes - there is a LOT of anecdotal evidence with insufficient epidemiological evidence due to lack of studies - something which the Cyp450 panels could of course easily contribute to remedying if completed for diagnosed EDS patients and perhaps identify a parallel genetic abnormality. Rare but within the realm of possibility. Given the capriciousness in terms of how local and general anaesthesia as well as other medications appear to "anecdotally" behave in EDS patients (as published in the literature and also noted first hand and from second hand collation of genetically diagnosed individuals' experiences) - it would not be a bad start to consider investigating some of the pharmacological activation pathways INCLUDING cyp450.


I should note: I both have diagnosed cEDS by a geneticist and 3 rheumatologists. My pain specialists and I avoided opiates for the last 5 years and now unfortunately the co-morbidities are causing rapid deterioration and pain issues that are unidentified however appearing to be neurological and inflammatory - where options are limited due to severe allergic reactions and adverse reactions to pregabalin and gabapentin. Two antiseizure medications and a SSNRI are taken regularly however the neuropathic and inflammatory pain have lead to fortnightly hospitalizations as well as emergency investigations for arterial dissections as I had lost consciousness from pain. (Tend to be stubborn...when mean last resort i mean LAST resort). Fentanyl was like an injectio of saline. I have never been given fentanyl before. I have however woken up during general anaesthesia - something which all my anesthesiologists now are very very wary of. So yes. When patients are trying every single method - physical gentle strengthening, wearing braces, using neuromodulators.....and still biting their lip till it bleeds in pain because they dont want to "cause a fuss" perhaps there needs to be a case by case review of the situation. Particularly when the incidence of CRPS is considered significant - is it and is the general published state of pain being dismissed by the idea of "just being a little flexible". Please if anyone has the misconception that "it gets better with age as you stiffen up" - no. It really, really doesn't. Do some studies on quality of life and find out if they haven't killed themselves to stop suffering. That might be why it gets better with age. They give up on medical care.
 

Attachments

  • opiodmetabolism.pdf
    1.2 MB · Views: 76
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The goal of SDN is to allow students and doctors to collaborate with each other. It is not intended to be a medium for medical advice or comments from patients to specialists. As this thread has devolved into name calling, I will be closing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top