Regrets about becoming an osteopathic physician

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by tarantismnow, Oct 30, 2002.

  1. tarantismnow

    tarantismnow Member
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    I am presently applying to both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools.

    I find the osteopathic philosophy very intriguing and exciting.

    However, when I told my dad, a bigtime attorney, that I was applying to D.O. schools he hesitated and explained that osteopaths were undertrained chiropractors (via his courtroom experience). The point is not my desire to make dad happy, trust me. Rather, a D.O. must spend a lot of time explaining the difference between a D.O. and M.D. and in some arenas must continually defend the quality of their degree. The stigma continues. For example, I work in research and one of the pharmaceutical companies hesitated in making a D.O. a principal investigator because he/she was not an M.D.

    So, after having made the decision (for those of you with the allopathic option), how confident are you, as medical students or praticing physicians, in your decision to be a D.O. rather than an M.D.?
     
  2. njdesi

    njdesi Senior Member
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    I am also applying to osteopathic medical schools, and could not be happier with my decision. You stated that your dad called them "undertrained chiropractors". Well, where did he get his info from? There are plenty ( I mean PLENTY ) of MDs out there as well that are a threat to patient well-being. Before we judge a physician (MD or DO), I think it is important to do an extremely thorough review of where they went to school, their training, and history of malpractice claims.

    My dad is an MD and thinks people end up settling for "DO school after they cannot get into MD schools". But he himself has been asked to review court cases of MDs who committed horrendous clinical misjudgments. He has said he works with many fine DOs on staff at his local hospital, and he has seen DOs in many top notch medical institutes in NYC. So I think it is the person who makes the doctor not the letters at the end of their name.

    Yes, I admit that their are a few areas in the healthcare field where the DO degree has been discriminated such as pharmaceuticals and possibly competitive residency programs. I know there are DOs everywhere even HARVARD, MAYO, and Hopkins.

    I would do the DO route if it truly what you want. I know I do.
     
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  3. njdesi

    njdesi Senior Member
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    I am also applying to osteopathic medical schools, and could not be happier with my decision. You stated that your dad called them "undertrained chiropractors". Well, where did he get his info from? There are plenty ( I mean PLENTY ) of MDs out there as well that are a threat to patient well-being. Before we judge a physician (MD or DO), I think it is important to do an extremely thorough review of where they went to school, their training, and history of malpractice claims.

    My dad is an MD and thinks people end up settling for "DO school after they cannot get into MD schools". But he himself has been asked to review court cases of MDs who committed horrendous clinical misjudgments. He has said he works with many fine DOs on staff at his local hospital, and he has seen DOs in many top notch medical institutes in NYC. So I think it is the person who makes the doctor not the letters at the end of their name.

    Yes, I admit that their are a few areas in the healthcare field where the DO degree has been discriminated such as pharmaceuticals and possibly competitive residency programs. I know there are DOs everywhere even HARVARD, MAYO, and Hopkins.

    I would do the DO route if it truly what you want. I know I do.
     
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  4. tarantismnow

    tarantismnow Member
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    His deduction of "undertrained chiropractor" came from experience cross examining them and comparing them to M.D.s he has deposed. He has no great esteem for M.D.s and less for D.O.s. His comment was a generalization; a comparison of the whole - he's a smart guy and understands individual differences. Anyway, his generalization is not my concern - it is that his thinking seems representative of the majority.
     
  5. dkwyler94

    dkwyler94 Senior Member
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    I was also somewhat concerned about what kind of reception I would get once I started practicing medicine. I am still an MSII, so I can't say how it will be. However, I can say so far in my training what I have experienced.

    I go home to an area with very few DOs during each of my breaks. To get a little more experience and exposure to non-primary care areas, I spend most of my breaks doing rotations with the doctors. Most of them are MDs. When I have talked to them about the DO MD difference, most of them consider it indifferent. While there are few DOs in the area, the ones that are there are well respected. One of them, and ER doctor MD agreed that if you were to take DOs and MDs as patients, they probably would have no idea if their doctor was an MD or DO.

    These doctors, mostly specialists and sub-specialists were very happy to let me shadow them, teach me what they could, and seemed to respect me. I never felt like any of them thought I was of inferior intelligence for going to a DO school.

    There might still be biasis out there, but as the last poster said, you have DOs everywhere now days. Most physicians recognize the residency as more important in the training anyway. You might have a harder time setting up a practice in an area with no DOs, and will have to explain it to a lot of people. Either you get accoustumed to this, or you just drop the initials (which I consider unimportant anyway), and just use the title Dr. before your name.

    Those are my thoughts anyway. If you like DO and the philosphy, go for it, if not don't. Either way, you will be the same doctor at the end regardless of which route you take. The difference between the two is the doctor, not the initials.
     
  6. PJMCD

    PJMCD Member
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    I'll make this quick and painless, your father is an idiot, and has no idea what he is talking about. I could go on, but i won't!:mad:
     
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  7. SLE

    SLE
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    Coming from a lawyer I don't really know how to take that. But seriously, the last time I checked MD and DO students study the same human body. Now if I am incorrect in saying so just let me know. At Lehigh Valley Hospital (a major hospital in PA) nearly half of their residents are DOs (mostly PCOMers!). Also many of the osteopathic philosophies have been adapted by MDs (treating the patient as a whole, interrelationship of soma and vicera, isn't McBurney's Point based on that concept?) I think that some have the preception that osteopaths just practice OMM, maybe we aren't doing a good job of getting our word out there. DOs are trained in every aspect in medicine and can specialize in any field. Granted a portion of our education is spent on manipulation, but a lot of information that we learn can greatly assist diagnosis. Check out a cronic smoker some time for hypertonic paraspinal musculature in T2-T6. Next time you see your favorite sports player go down in a game, check out the PT doing OMT. Our philosophy is contagious. I really don't think that becoming an DO is going to hurt you in becoming a physician. Or at least it hasn't hurt any of the DOs that I have seen in the various hospitals I have been at.
     
  8. DO2003

    DO2003 Junior Member
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    All southerners are idiot rednecks. All arabs want to fly airplanes into buildings. All hsipanics are illegal Mexicans...make my point???

    So me see if I get this strait. Based on the experience deposing one D.O., your father thinks all D.O.s are undertrained Chiropractors?!? With all due respect, before I went to medical school I worked at a law firm, and let me tell you - I know for a fact that some lawyers are not exactly the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree. For your father to make such a broad sweeping generalization about D.O.s based on one bad apple is narrow minded, arrogant, and just plain wrong. It would be like me stating that (based on my experience working with attorneys at the firm I used to work at in Dallas) that all attorneys are little more than whiney, overpaid children who can't even work sometihing as simple as a calculator! One of the attorneys I worked for did not even know how to turn on his computer in the morning and had to have his secretary turn his computer on, print out each of his e-mailsfor him. - And this after 3 days of one-on-one computer training when he first started with the firm! He was a pure idiot! But I can't say that about all attorneys because I, unlike some narrow minded people, am not dumb enough to think that after one such experience that all attorneys are really that stupid.

    Now, does your dad realize that 35-45% of all Osteopathic Graduates train in allopathic (M.D.) residencies? The KCOM class of 2002 had graduates going into programs at the Cleveland Clinic, The Mayo Clinic, MD Anderson in Houston...and the list goes on. I am a 4th year D.O. student and I am interviewing at some very prestigious allopathic pediatric residencies during the next 3 months, including: Scott and White Hospital (Texas A &
    M); The Cleveland Clinic; Arkansas Children's Hospital (The 6th largest children's hospital in the country); as well as several other allopathic programs. Each of the programs above has D.O.s training in them right now, which signifies to me that M.D.s apparently don't consider us to be undertrained chiropracters, because if that were the case, we wouldn't be allowed to train at prestigious allopathic programs. See what your dad thinks about that.

    I think your dad is stuck in the first half of the 20th century...the very early part of the first half of the 20th century. I also think that your father should look to see how many D.O.s are in his insurance provider book, and then look to see how many Chiropractors there are. And, I think he should consider why it is that D.O.s can prescribe the same meds - not just antibiotics mind you, but the full spectrum of DEA schedule I-V drugs that M.D.s can, but Chiropractors cannot. I think your dad ought to figure out why it is that Kirksville students perform better than the national average on the USMLE (the allopathic boards exams) and try to figure out how it is that we are just "undertrained chiropractors" after those facts are brought to light.

    I could go on, but I won't because I am sure you are getting tired of reading...
     
  9. kirkdo

    kirkdo Member
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    There is a lot of ignorance about D.O.'s and Osteopathic Medicine.
    With a D.O. degree you are a complete physician. You can prescribe medications, perform surgery , deliver babies, perform osteopathic manipulation etc.
    Chiropracters are strictly manual medicine practioners.
    There are D.O.'s in every field in medicine from nephrology to neurosurgery.
    Many D.O.'s have gotten into very competitive allopathic residencies.
    There are many notable D.O.'s considering D.O.'s make up only 5% of this nations physicians.
    The former surgeon general of the Army is a D.O. General Blank.
    The advisor to the television program "ER" is a D.O.

    I am proud to be a D.O.
     
  10. adismo

    adismo covered in moon dust
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    This is just another jab at the OstMed profession, posing as a legitimate question.

    Should this be real, I'd take the lawyer's spineless generalization as a compliment for the DO.
    Did the DO make the lawyer look like a raging fool in front of his peers? Too bad, counsel *******. Is the lawyer upset the DO makes more money? aww, its only money. As reactionary and vengeful as lawyers are, its safe to believe the exact opposite of what a lawyer says.

    But really, why even bother taking a lawyers opinion about a physician? Because of the prestige and truthfullness of the legal profession, of course.
     
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  11. San_Juan_Sun

    San_Juan_Sun Professor of Life
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    Wow, a lot of lawyer hate in this thread. I say give tarantismnow a break.

    No matter what kind of physician you are (MD or DO), you're going to have to be an educator. Instead of piling on a person's father, and that person's motives, just educate helpfully. It's much more effective to be kind and informative, even if you're sick and tired of seeing the same questions every week.

    My advie to tarantismnow: seek out knowledge as best you can and decide if YOU like it. If you do, then great. If not, then go and make yourself into a fine allopath. Best of luck to you.
     
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  12. ItNeverEnds

    ItNeverEnds Senior Member
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  13. Fenrezz

    Fenrezz AT Stills Worst Nightmare
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    Don't forget the two bisexual german strippers in the backseat.

    Here's the bottom line for all of you applying to medical school. If you are at all concerned about what letters will be on your white coat, play it safe and dont apply to DO schools.

    Now how easy is that?
     
  14. bla_3x

    bla_3x Grip it and rip it!
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    Ahh the saga continues:rolleyes:

    I just have to laugh at the whole DO-MD thing. I just would LOVE to know where the REAL basis is for anyone thinking that DOs are somehow inferior to their MD counterparts. We study the SAME THINGS, IN THE SAME DETAIL. Sure we learn some extra things and focus on some slightly differing philosophies, but WE LEARN THE SAME MEDICINE.

    Does it really make any sense to argue this point based on who gets accepted to a certain medical school? No. DO students perform well on the COMLEX and go on to be great residents and doctors. Some even go on to tale the USMLE and do just as well. MD students perform well on the USMLE and go on to be great residents and doctors. What is it going to take to get people to close the door on this issue?

    I would really welcome some honest, thoughtful, intelligent rejections of osteopathic medicine from anyone.

    In reality, it does boil down to ignorance, and above all else fear of change. People seem to view medicine as this fluid and evolving science, but with an unchanging institution. A lot of people just don?t understand that there are two valid practices of medicine, and don?t want to.

    I don?t imagine that I will regret my decision to do into osteopathy, I just want to be the best darn Doc I can be.
    :D
     
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  15. Gregory Gulick

    Gregory Gulick Senior Member
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    Where is the basis, you ask? The basis lies in years of negative press by the AMA. If you ever have an opportunity to visit a library that maintains a collection of old JAMAs (from the 1890's to early 1900's), flip through them for a bit and it won't take you long to find articles about the dangers of osteopathy, the "cult" of osteopathy, etc.

    During the mid-to-latter part of the 1800's, the U.S. didn't really have a dominant medical profession. Allopathy, Osteopathy, Homeopathy, Chiropractic, Eclectics, Bone Setters, etc. etc. were all competing to become that dominant branch of healing. As it turns out, the M.D.s were the most organized (in the form of the AMA) and were able to offer the most influence on the governing of the healing professions. As a result, they won and became the mainstream branch of healing. In order to ensure their dominance, they had to do away with their competition and they did a very good job of it, with the exception of a few "cults" (their terminology for osteopathy, chiropractic, and anything else non-allopathic) which refused to go away.

    So in sum, the AMA was very effective at implementing licensing laws which defined what a physician was... and therefore having a "healing practice" that in any way overlapped with the potential M.D. market without possessing an M.D. often resulted in imprisonment. If you review some of these early JAMAs, you'll see countless reports of trials against D.O.s, D.C.s, and midwives -- who were often imprisoned for "practicing medicine without a license."

    If anyone has a real interest in this matter, I'd recommend taking a medical sociology class as you'll most likely study this matter further. It is incredibly interesting. And it will also illuminate why many of the older (often retired) D.O.s have so much animosity against the AMA and M.D.s in general.

    Fortunately, the war is over... and we won. But some of the older M.D.s and D.O.s still take stabs at each other by passing on their distrust to future generations of physicians, M.D. and D.O.

    Gregory Gulick, MS-IV
    NSU-COM
     
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  16. tarantismnow

    tarantismnow Member
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    I appreciate the analytical feedback.

    Unfortunately, as is often the case, people don't read these posts very carefully and then continue on an emotional tangent.

    My initial question was not in any way a jab at the profession. Rather, I wanted to bypass the admin committees advice and shoot for insit straight from the source: D.O.s.

    Quoting my father merely served as an example of the bias toward D.O.s that does exist, particularly among his generation. The response of people like DO2003 merely confirms the bias and reveals the chip on the shoulder of at least one future D.O.

    I was accepted by COMP yesterday and merely want as much as info as possible to make an educated decision before myself 200 grand in the hole. This is one component of my extensive research into the field.

    Personal feedback about the decision to become an osteopath is much appreciated by me, but leave the emotion behind. I would not have applied to COMP if I did not think and understand the great merits in training as a D.O. I did, however, want insite from those on the front lines before going to war on behalf of the profession for the rest of my life.
     
  17. San_Juan_Sun

    San_Juan_Sun Professor of Life
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    Well, so much for the "thinly veiled jab at the Osteomed profession" theory.

    Congrats and good luck to you.
     
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  18. gas-x

    gas-x Senior Member
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    i'll probably get flamed for what i'm about to say, but...what the hell.

    i'm a DO ms4 applying to allopathic residencies. overall, i never received any prejudice during my two years rotation at several allopathic institution. however, i think it's much tougher for a DO to get into high-power allopathic residencies. sure, sure, sure, you'll hear about some DO at a high position at MGH, hopkins, etc...but the odds are still against you.

    case in point...i talked to a med student from top 25 med school. it turned out that we had VERY similar stats and rec letter sources. however, as the month went by, he received interview requests from some more reputable residences (beth israel, oregon, hopkins, yale, etc...). i also received several offers, but not necessarily in the same bracket. why is this? the programs have our stats only, nothing else. we are of the same color, race, etc... the only main difference is our school. he's at a top 25 school, and i'm from a DO school in the middle of nowhere. of course, my personal statement could be the pits, but most likely not that bad.

    what i'm getting at is this...there is certainly nothing wrong with being a DO. it's just much harder when you're applying to residencies. med school is hard enough, why add to the stress? i'm confident that i'll end up at a great program, but it would certainly be nice to pick from the top programs across the nation. maybe i'll get them later, who knows.

    keep this stuff in mind when you choose med schools. also remember that DO residencies tend to be small and community-based. sure there are larger tertiary care centers, but it's primarily located in michigan, new york, and some others. doesn't help much if you live in california.

    sometimes i think it sucks to be a DO, but it was my choice, ultimately. i'll deal with it.
     
  19. HockeySniper39

    HockeySniper39 Junior Member

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    Hello

    I am an Osteopathic medical student and when it comes down to this whole D.O., M.D. debate I always hear a similar argument to the supposed down fall of going to an osteopathic school, which is given the same stats some one from an allopathic program is going to get a residency when put up against an osteopathic student. I think that in almost every situation like this that I have read the Allopathic student is from a top 25 program. I think that the point that we are missing is that osteopathic schools are not yet at the level of being one of the top 25 schools in the country. Maybe in fact the school did make the difference but not because of the degree it offered but because of its prestige. I am very happy with my decision to go D.O. (and yes it was a decision). I had the option to go to an M.D. school (I have no problem with sharing my stats to prove that people do choose D.O. and are not forced into it by a low MCAT or GPA) but felt that the school I am at is a better institution and offered me more options. I think I am starting to ramble, so let me just make my point. Osteopathic schools offer just as good an education as allopathic schools, but they are not the best in the country, I would argue that my school is better then plenty of lower and middle rank allopathic schools but Im not stupid enough to say its better then a University of Chicago or Harvard. So I would like to hear of two students (one D.O. and one M.D.) of similar stats and similar schools go against each other for a residency and have the M.D. student be chosen because of their name. (I don?t believe that this happens).

    Jim
    :)
     
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  20. xraydoc

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    Bottom line is that you must be happy with yourself and have enough self confidence that when somebody gives you an attitude trip you can laugh at them and tell them to go screw themselves.

    If the only reason you are going into medicine is for the priestige of the degree then PLEASE, PLEASE don't go into medicine!!!!!!

    Personally when I encounter that attitude I tell them about how many peoples lives I have saved, how hard I work, how many MD physicians depend on me, all the MD institutions I have trained, and ask them if they have had a life even half as exciting or worthwhile. Then I tell them that I live in a big house, drive a fancy car and make more coin in one year than they make in 10. There is usually no response when you just tell the truth. I sugest we all try that.
     
  21. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Verified Account 10+ Year Member

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    I'm a DO and I do not feel inferior nor am I ever treated inferiorly. I specifically chose DO schools over MD schools and I think that affects the way I interact with people and how they perceive me. I had the pick of all the top residency programs in my field. My USMLE scores are above average and I have a very solid research background with letters of rec from leaders in my field. I think residency programs paid attention to those qualities and not my medical degree.

    I am certain that there are individuals out there who don't hold very high esteem for DO's. I'm also certain that there may exist individual residency program directors with certain biases against osteopathic physicians. Still, after 5 years of "living in the belly of the beast" as a DO I've yet to see myself the target of any wholesale "discrimination." As a premed I was paranoid that I was handicapping myself by becoming a DO because of all the premed rumors that circulated about how DO's only get the "left-overs" in medicine. It hasn't materialized yet. I anticipate doing well during my residency at Mayo and going on to secure a prestigious fellowship.

    You will see that as you progress through your education and training and interact with other medical students, attendings, fellow residents, and future colleagues things like what kind of medical degree you own become meaningless. What matters most is your personal *EXPERIENCE* with individual physicians: Is this person knowledgable? Did they help my patient? Were they professional and courteous? Can I *TRUST* them? It is the answers to these questions that determine your worth and reputation as a physician and not, "Is Dr. So-and-so a DO or MD?" When people need a cardiology consult, they don't care if the doctor is a MD cardiologist or a DO cardiologist. They only care that the individual is prompt, efficient, courteous, compassionate, and knowledgable.

    When I read these threads I often try to imagine myself 5-7 years hence, newly established in practice in some nice community and some MD colleague thinking to himself, "Hmm, I'm not referring patients to Dr. Russo. I don't care if he's a board-certified fellowship-trained Mayo physiatrist with several published articles and book chapters. He's a damn DO and that's reason enough for me!" Except for the the most irrational, raging bigot, people just don't think that way...
     
  22. tarantismnow

    tarantismnow Member
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    Finally - it appears that we have gotten to the real issue at hand and moved on from the emotional reaction this thread initially provoked.

    I really appreciate the time taken here to share your experiences.

    As I mentioned, I got notice of acceptance from COMP last night. At work, I received a mixed reception from the nursing staff I work with - some very excited that I was going to med school while others that snubbed the news when hearing it was an osteopathic program. Specifically, the head nurse and a friend suggested that I was much too smart a guy to go to osteopathic school because "they can't even write perscriptions". I began to correct her - then said to myself "screw it, i'll explain later because today I'm just going to enjoy the prospect of becoming a physician."

    It seems clear that becoming a D.O. means having to educate the ignorant.

    Thank you to those who are practicing or training for sharing your hearts and taking the time to tell it like it is. I look forward to joining your ranks.
     
  23. nebaker

    nebaker Member
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    I know many MD who either wish that had the same training as DO of have learned manipulation to use in thier practices from DO.

    I have to defend my reasons behind becoming a DO to many family members who feel that I should have gone to MD school. I think I will be defending my choice till the day I day. But do I regret a day of it? NO
     
  24. Starboard

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    If your idea of being a physician involves having and knowing as many tratment modalities as possibel for your patient... go DO. If your idea of being a physician involves being well known to the public...stick to an MD program.

    Will you have to bust your ass and prove yourself as a DO? Yup, every day in rotations, residency, to family and friends. Can you still got those top placements? Yeah but you'll have to be willing to work twice as hard. Will you be better doc for the experience? You bet.
     
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  25. ItNeverEnds

    ItNeverEnds Senior Member
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    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....
     
  26. Dr Sum Day

    Dr Sum Day SDN Lifetime Donor
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    Man, people are totally clueless about the profession---"can't even write prescriptions" How pathetic of the nurse, etc..:rolleyes:
     
  27. me109cito

    me109cito Membership Revoked
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    Peds is an easy residency to match in and the places you mention are not known for having top peds residencies. I'd understand if you interviewing at places like UCSF or UW (seattle).
     
  28. Biljana

    Biljana Junior Member

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    i am only applying to osteopathic medical schools and i am already aware of the stigma and ignorance of the public opinion. for that reason i think that present and future of the profession depends on people like us that can withstand the stupidity and truly represent osteopathic philosophy. it is unacceptable to give up osteopathic medicine if that is what you are about only out of fear what will the majority think. the profession can only grow bigger, and i try to imagine what it was like trying to be an osteopath 100years ago.
     
  29. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    My father is also an attorney, and he has for years deposed many a physician. His belief is that it would be absolutely crazy to attack a physician based on their title, because it is their CV that tells the real story. He uses DO's for expert witnesses even against MD's, and he uses them based on their ability to communicate in front of a jury and because of their reputation. He says that there is no way in this day and age that a lawyer would stand a chance of winning his case if they simply tried to convince the jury that a DO was less credible than an MD. The law is very clear in all 50 states, and if you try to argue that a DO is less in quality but equal in the eyes of the law, it just backfires. My dad says he always introduces to the jury a "physician", but does not discriminate between the types. Now to throw a wrench into the argument though, he tells me that Podiatists and Chiropractors are often discriminated against by juries and judges, but this is because they are not on the same legal ground as DO's and MD's. Their training is not the same, and he says it is easier to take advantage of it. From what he told me, he says that you can't even find an MD who would want to be the one to testify that they are better than DO's. It just doesn't happen anymore, because DO's and MD's have come together as physicians, and physicians protect each other to a greater extent than they would non-physicians. Its just that way. My dad would have rather me attended an MD school, but I chose a DO school because of its location, its reputation, its price, and the added OMM that I think can be very useful. I am a physician assistant who was trained in the allopathic world, but I can tell you that MD's lose a lot of business and create extra hassles for their patient by sending them all to physical therapy for simple problems. Patients love it when their "physician" actually takes the time to feel for the diagnosis, and when they take 5 or ten minutes with soft tissue techniques to help relieve a strained muscle group. As a DO, if you do this to a patient who is used to seeing an MD, you will have a patient for life. MD's (and PA's alike) just don't seem to feel it is very necessary to touch a patient, and often are intimidated by injury. Ask an MD if he or she can truly feel where the muscle spasm is occuring in their patient with lumbar strain, and most will tell you they cannot. If you are going to be in primary care, remember that about 20% of your patients will have these musculoskeletal issues that an MD won't feel comfortable managing most of the time. As a DO, you will be able to keep these patients in house, save them the trouble of driving across the world to wait at another office (like PT or an ortho referral), and make extra bucks because of it. And most of all, your patients will be very impressed and satisfied. So don't let old Daddy keep you from doing what you want. Our father's are simply from a generation that saw a struggling DO profession emerge into the mainstream. Its just like many of us in the south with grandparents who call certain ethnic groups by their inappropriate slang names, but they don't even see why it is wrong. Its just burned into their nature. Like all things though, dilutional affect comes with time.
     
  30. rbassdo

    rbassdo newly hindu
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    No one should hang his/her head for applying to osteopathic schools! By the way, plenty of chiropractors have failed out of KCOM over the last several years. I heard that from one of the deans. I don't know about all the other DO schools, but KCOM students have done so well on the USMLE, as of late, that USMLE reps. came to KCOM to find out what was going on around here. So...apply, but apply wisely. I'm sure some schools (DO and MD) are simply not as good as others in their preparation of students.

    Ryan
     
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  31. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Membership Revoked
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    :clap:
     
  32. Dr Sum Day

    Dr Sum Day SDN Lifetime Donor
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  33. me109cito

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    A couple of days ago we had a lecture on Alternative/Complementary medicine and I was surprised to see a DO as part of the panel. I sure wans't expecting it.
     
  34. Catherine

    Catherine Senior Member
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    Totally riduculous post - we all know that DO schools are full of people that applied to MD schools and didn't make it. Those people that turn down a MD spot for a DO spot are very rare and do so for specifc reasons - not wanting to disrupt family setting, scholarship award, etc. I'd really like to hear from someone who turned down a MD slot for a DO slot because of the DO "philosophy" - in fact, I'd really like to hear what the DO philosophy is - I have never seen or heard a philosophy that wasn't just FP philosophy. Lets face it, the AOA has enough trouble coming up with convincing wording for their ads.

    That being said, it really doesn't matter at the end of the day - MD or DO, you're still a physician. It's like saying that a grad of UIC is second rate because they applied to Northwestern and didn't get in.
     
  35. Starboard

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    The only truth you speak is that at the end of the day we're all doctors. But oddly enough even you seem to want to say md's are better than DO's, so I guess maybe there was no truth in your post at all

    .
     
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  36. Mire

    Mire Member
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    Fenrezz. You are a stud!!! That is the most clear and concise, need I add, intelligent way to put it that I have seen. Thank you!
     
  37. xraydoc

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    This type of arrogant attitude I would expect from somebody who has a large chip on their shoulder and needs to put others down in order to be superior. Grow up starboard. You are the reason people despise physicians. I will personally pit my skills against any MD any time. If you want to see my CV I will gladly send it to you. Just in the last month I have given lectures to over 75 physicians mostly MD who were glad to learn about things that I were teaching them. They didn't seem to care about my "letters"

    Oh I was accepted at MSU--UM--Wayne state-- so was a good friend of mine who also attended MSUCOM.

    SO LEAVE THAT ATTITUDE!
     
  38. jwado

    jwado New Member

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    This is my first time to this site, I read this post and had to reply.

    First, I'm a D.O. in my second year of an Internal Medicine residency. The residency I am doing is Allopathic. I don't think it makes a difference, there are a lot of great Osteopathic residency programs as well, I chose my residency based on location and quality, I have the best of both worlds. Last year the chief of our program was a D.O., and he was asked to stay on as Staff. It is not the degree, it is the physician. I already have offers to stay and apply for fellowships. The Allopathic program I am in chooses the best candidates not a degree. They can afford to pick who they want.

    Second, do things in life that make you happy. I enjoy the differnce between me and my M.D. counterparts. I have other residents (allopathic) ask me for manipulations all the time.

    Third, the best way to get out the message about D.O.s is to practice excellent medicine and patients will notice. Don't listen to the comment of one Lawyer. I dated a lawyer, they are not all intellegent. There are idiot physicians just like idiots in any other profession. Try not to be one and do the best job for your patients.

    Fourth,
    All medical schools are regulated by the federal government. If they were not providing adequate education to the students they would be shut down. I don' t remember the name of the organization, but it does exist.

    I hope my rambling didn't bore anyone too much. Please respond if you feel so inclinde.
     
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  39. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Verified Account 10+ Year Member

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    I turned down a MD spot for a DO spot in part because of the added training in manual medicine and osteopathic philosophy of patient care. I don't feel that unusual. I know others who made similar choices. I wonder why some people are just *SO* adament that most DO's are really MD-wannabes? Why does it seem so unusual to some people that others would make personal choices based upon firmly held convictions or even just personal preferences instead of doing what is simply popular or orthodox?
     
  40. Mire

    Mire Member
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    As a future DO student, my concern is not with how good a doctor my training will prepare me to be. My concern is that the ridiculous posts that suggest that we aren't good enough for the MD title, it seems, are often written by future MD's. I am saddened that this thinking could stay with them into their professional years.

    My point is, although there are two paths to take, they all end up at the same destination. For those who think that because the admission numbers are slightly, if at all, lower at DO schools, there is always another side to every story. Seven years ago I went to college as a pre-med and had a poor year academically due to numerous family tragedies. I left school for several years. In my time off I worked as a paramedic, and returned to school. I got A's in all my classes, however that year in 1995 never left my transcript. For this reason, my numbers don't reflect my actual abilities. I have outperformed many pre-MD students in my undergrad career, and I am just a competent as they are. I think Osteopathic schools give students like me the chance that many MD schools would not. For this reason, I believe DO schools may actually have a leg up in the character department. Regardless, I will still have to pass the USMLE just like an MD student. Besides that, the GPA/MCAT averages at the DO schools I have been accepted to are so close to many MD schools that the real difference may only be in the way they view applicants.
     
  41. LovelyRita

    LovelyRita Blade Slinger
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    Ditto that. This thread should be deleted--unfortunately I'm keeping it going by wasting 2 minutes of my life I'll never get back!:mad:
     
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  42. AviatorDoc

    AviatorDoc fizz ee at' rist
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    If it is important to become a physician, then you shouldn't care what the letters say. That doesnt mean turning your back on either profession. Both make excellent contributions to the health care system in this country. DOs have a SLIGHTLY different take on health care, but this makes them neither superior nor inferior to MDs.

    Admissions standards at DO schools are slightly lower. So what? Does that make them poor physicians? Not by a long shot.

    There are people who choose to go DO b/c they didnt get into MD schools. So what? They can still make great docs, and may contribute a good deal to the osteopathic profession. Some even end up doing OMM fellowships and specialize in manipulation.

    Whether you chose to go DO, or it chose you (so to speak), it doesn't matter. You don't have to rationalize/justify the choice.

    I think a big hinderance to the osteopathic profession are former MD-wannabes who suddenly espouse that DOs better anyway. I think psychatrists call it Reaction Formation.

    If you were an MD-wannabe and now find yourself at a DO school, you don't have to pout, complain, or listen those who've wanted to be DOs since they were in diapers. Just be the best damn physician you can be.
     
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  43. xraydoc

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    This type of arrogant attitude I would expect from somebody who has a large chip on their shoulder and needs to put others down in order to be superior. Grow up starboard. You are the reason people despise physicians. I will personally pit my skills against any MD any time. If you want to see my CV I will gladly send it to you. Just in the last month I have given lectures to over 75 physicians mostly MD who were glad to learn about things that I were teaching them. They didn't seem to care about my "letters"

    Oh I was accepted at MSU--UM--Wayne state-- so was a good friend of mine who also attended MSUCOM.

    SO LEAVE THAT ATTITUDE!




    The above post should refer to CATHERINE not STARBOARD. Sorry, I can't think too straight when I am livid. ;)
     
  44. rbassdo

    rbassdo newly hindu
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    I chose to attend an osteopathic school because I was most impressed with the overall care of several D.O.'s in the hospital I worked at. Second, the training osteopaths get in anatomy and manual manipulation/palpation is a great advantage over most allopathic schools.

    In response to the negative comments about the osteopathic philosophy, I argue that the osteopathic philosophies of 1. the body wanting to "self-heal" and 2. "form follows function" are beautifully supported by modern knowledge of the human body (immunity for example) and of nature in general. It is allopathy that is based on ancient ideas...primarily that physicians must intervene in such a way that produces affects opposite those of the dysfunction. I guess that makes some sense, but we can do better than that. That theory evolved when scientists had no idea how the body's systems worked together in harmony and function/dysfunction - including immunity, bio-chemistry, etc etc. MD's are great, but I'm proud to be a DO in training.

    Ryan
     
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  45. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    hey ya crazy fools,

    I agree, this is a very silly thread that seems to keep coming up. While I do acknowledge the group of would-be MD's that end up with DO's because this was the only option they had, I personally know quite a few people in my class that chose DO's for the OMM and the philosophy.

    Of course, a DO isnt for everyone. I would say that those who want a cross-disciplinary approach to patient care would find the DO training far more appealing (the trend now at many MD institutions is extreme specialization). In my eyes DO training is superior for people interested in family practice, Internal med, or any other primary care profession because of the human factor in the training and the OMM. Some people like all the anatomy emphasis for surgery (anatomy is often much heavier at DO schools than MD).

    The reality of the situation, however, is that many MD schools have superior financial resources and a stronger research base (MSU-COM might be an exception). Also, there are still a few allopathic residency programs that will chose MD's over DO's even with similar credentials- but I think these are becoming a minority. also, some people just like MD's.

    what it comes down to is personal choice...

    For me the deciding factor to only apply to one MD school (because of location and its department of Integrative medicine) while applying to several of the best DO schools was the docs I spoke to.

    the MD's told me "STAY AWAY FROM MEDICINE!!! IT SUCKS!!!"
    The DO's said "I LOVE WHAT I DO AND IF I COULD DO IT OVER OF COURSE I'D BE A DO."

    hmm... of course not every doc with the given credentials would be this way, but this was my experience with several on each side of the fence. All I can figure is that many DO's love their work with patients and have so much fun with their work that issues of insurance and whatnot just arent as big a deal to them.

    who knows though, small sample size, lots of speculation.

    cheers,
    bones
    KCOM '05
     
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  46. BrooklynDO

    BrooklynDO Senior Member
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    This is my experience on the matter:
    When an MD tells you he cant do anything for you, you cant be helped, sorry, stop by a DO office... then we will talk about who is undertrained in what.
     
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  47. saint1102

    saint1102 New Member

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    :clap: :clap: :clap:

    i am a fourth year medical student at NYCOM. I have good grades. I did well on COMLEX 1 and kicked butt on COMLEX2.
    i am pretty competitive for any allopathic and osteopathic residency, but i choose to apply only osteopathic. why?? b/c i am proud to be a DO and i have no regrets.

    i "fell" into osteopathic medical school b/c i was not accepted into an allopathic school. my college advisor referred to osteopathic school as "medical school lite". i was ignorant back then, i believed him. til i started my 1st year.

    now, 6 months away from graduation, if i had to do it all over again, would i do the same exact thing???

    no, this time, i would apply with pride and without the ignorance!
    good luck to you in your application process. do what you believe is right for you.
     
  48. Resident Alien

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    needless MD bashing. If you;re happy to be DO just say that.
     
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  49. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    to answer this post directly, I was worried about this at first too, but you will very quickly find that when you are in a hospital the staff takes one look at your white coat and its as simple as that. Often they dont even look at your nametag- you could just have your name with no degree on there and they might treat you the same (makes you wonder about a few of those guys...). Other docs will ultimately judge you by your skill and not your degree -with a few rare exceptions in certain parts of the country like the deep south where there arent many DO's yet.

    The only people there are to defend your degree against are your family (if they care) and strangers that have never heard of a DO. If you introduce yourself as a physician that does osteopathic medicine that usually clears things up.
     
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  50. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    not my intent:eek:
    just justifying my choice via personal experience. Many good MD's out there, no doubt about it. If I wanted to do ER, ENT, or academic medicine I probably would have gone the MD route for the monetary support for the education and faculty/student ratio. 'course there was an excellent MD doing ENT (trained at John's Hopkins) that was telling me to stay CLEAR of medicine. Loud and clear. had an MD FP and Psych say the same. my DO refs were family meds and OMM specialists, so maybe it had a bit to do with the specialties of those I asked. that I don't know.

    no hard feelings eh? :D


    P.S. oh, almost forgot to mention, M.D.'s do have it better overseas in many countries. Thats the one big issue I am currently having with my DO degree (to be) since I want to do a lot of international medicine. Many of the countries out there give you practice rights equivalent to the US, but some treat you like chiropractors and some dont even recognize your degree- but this can usually be remedied if you file a bunch of paperwork. Just check it out if you want to do overseas work- for me I wanted the DO enough to choose it anyway. KCOM is currently setting up optional international rotations with a few of the DO-friendly countries, btw.
     
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