rejected from research because you are pre-med?

[VooDooo327]

A lot of PI's want to give positions to people who are also perusing a PhD and might actually use their lab experience in the future and not only for a resume. That's my general impression. It's like a doctor giving up some time to allow a student to shadow them who is going into business law or something like that. Although, I can see that research and medicine have more in common.

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[Narmerguy]

Gotta start some where...Most undergrads dont have jack for knowledge when it comes to research when they first step foot in the lab, despite what they think they know from their classes...and if your under a graduate student, washing their dishes, pouring media, re-culturing bugs (micro), every day saves the graduate student an enormous amount of time that they can use to catch up on papers, work out problems with techniques, grade papers, etc... Those "menial" jobs are much more important than people think, having someone handle them for you is definately not a waste of time for the PI or graduate student.

Every undergrad I took on had to show they could handle washing dishes and maintaining cultures for atleast a semester...They picked up small things here and there - how to pour a gel, the basics of PCR etc..Let them put a couple together towards the end of the semester...then next semester, that becomes their regular job...

Iv definately never had a problem taking any student, pre-med or not, under my wing during grad school if they said the magic words - "I was dishes"...even if they only had time to come inbetween classes to do it...they definately were considered for the job. If they thought they were above washing dishes and what not, no way in hell I am going to trust them with more important tasks. Those that did stick around (2 of the 1-3 I took on every semester over 3 years) actually learned quite a bit, they were easy to work with because they listened to what you said...both of them stayed with me over 2 years and had individual projects by the time I graduated...one stayed on for a masters, the other went off to medical school for an MD/PhD if i remember correctly. They worked their way up..thats the way it should be.

Personally I think that's garbage and it's pretty ridiculous to even scoff at someone for thinking they're "above" washing dishes. If I wanted to learn the proper dish washing techniques I'd intern in the kitchen. I fault premeds for being disingenuous about a lot of things but this is totally different. If they want to try research, let them try research, not scut. Yes, research involves scut, but it is not comprised only of scut and to expect a student to feel graced just to be in the lab is pretty arrogant and selfish. Teach them from the beginning, don't just wait for them to "pick up" stuff while they're washing your dishes. This kind of arrogance from graduate students is what frustrates me about many labs and which is why I'm very glad that there are policies in my school against that kind of stuff because the professors want to get students genuinely interested in research.

/rant

Definitely. These labs should be avoided if at all possible.

Yes. They should. They aren't all this way and you don't have to put up with it.

 

[ShinyDome19]

Personally I think that's garbage and it's pretty ridiculous to even scoff at someone for thinking they're "above" washing dishes. If I wanted to learn the proper dish washing techniques I'd intern in the kitchen. I fault premeds for being disingenuous about a lot of things but this is totally different. If they want to try research, let them try research, not scut. Yes, research involves scut, but it is not comprised only of scut and to expect a student to feel graced just to be in the lab is pretty arrogant and selfish. Teach them from the beginning, don't just wait for them to "pick up" stuff while they're washing your dishes. This kind of arrogance from graduate students is what frustrates me about many labs and which is why I'm very glad that there are policies in my school against that kind of stuff because the professors want to get students genuinely interested in research.

/rant

Seriously? then you have no idea how important washing dishes in a lab can be. It can be the difference between having an experiment work and not...and when it doesnt, the fact that the person did a piss poor job washing dishes rarely comes to mind, thus leaving you chasing your tail as to why the experiment failed...which costs a lot of time and money.

The whole "Let them TRY research"...WTF is that...So, lets spend a shi* ton of money that has been alloted to the graduate student's personal project - a project the grad. student probably spends 7 days a week working on - on supplies and a ton of the graduate student's time so some undergrad can TRY to do research. Why the heck do you think your entitled to do anything in the lab as an undergrad..especially seeing that you obviously have no idea what research entails. You really think undergrads have the time to sit down and do a literature review of what ever topic they want to do research in...NO You really think that undergrads have time to come up with their own novel hypothesis to test....NO You really think that undergrads have time to setup pilot studies for said hypothesis...NO You really think that undergrads have time to carry out said pilot studies and trouble shoot all of the technical problems they are bound to come in to...NO You really think that undergrads have the time and statistical background to make sense of all the data that they collect...NO You really think that undergrads have time to sit down with all the collected data and write manuscripts...NO

Typically, undergrads think that research comprises of nothing but running gels and doing various techniques, which is all fine and dandy. But, by in order for the graduate student to teach the technique to someone, they have to know it themself and by the time the graduate student gets the technique down to where its working consistantly, which could be a long time, you really think they want to just pass the work on to some noob so the noob can spend months on end trying to get the technique down. No, they want to start collecting some data so they can move on to the next part of their study. Besides that, most undergrads have an hour or two maybe every day (if they are lucky) to put into some lab work. This means that the graduate student has to have the time available to teach the undergrad at that same time that the undergrad comes along to put in their hour. Fortunately for the graduate student, its not their "JOB" to teach the undergrads to do jack...Graduate students have priorities which are to do research (and they are reminded of this constantly by the PIs), to take care of their own coursework and finally if they have time, teach a class. But seeing that graduate students dont get their degree unless they finish their research, they are more likely to put that extra time thowards getting their degree. So its generally going to come down to the good'ol Cost:Benifit ratio for the graduate student on whether its worth it or not to spend the time teaching an undergrad to do something more complex or not. The easiest and quickest thing to teach an undergrad to do...you guessed it: wash dishes...if you cant handle that...how the hell are you going to handle tasks that require more attention and dedication. If you can do it well, guess what that provides the graduate student...more time..which, if they can get caught up on all the BS they have to take care of..they might be grateful for your help and teach you something new.

You really think that just because someone becomes a medical student at some point in time, they should be able to TRY surgery...no, your gonna sit there your first two years and learn the basics of medicine...and when you set foot in the OR in 3rd/4th year...your gonna watch and do...SCUT work.

Yes. They should. They aren't all this way and you don't have to put up with it.

LOL...your right...you dont have to put up with it...Go tell your PI/Graduate Student that your not going to take that kind of crap - because your a undergrad d*mnit!

 

[apumic]

Seriously? then you have no idea how important washing dishes in a lab can be. It can be the difference between having an experiment work and not...and when it doesnt, the fact that the person did a piss poor job washing dishes rarely comes to mind, thus leaving you chasing your tail as to why the experiment failed...which costs a lot of time and money.

The whole "Let them TRY research"...WTF is that...So, lets spend a shi* ton of money that has been alloted to my personal graduate project - a project the grad. student probably spends 7 days a week working on - on supplies and a ton of the graduate student's time so some undergrad can TRY to do research. Why the heck do you think your entitled to do anything in the lab as an undergrad..especially seeing that you obviously have no idea what research entails. You really think undergrads have the time to sit down and do a literature review of what ever topic they want to do research in...NO You really think that undergrads have time to come up with their own novel hypothesis to test....NO You really think that undergrads have time to setup pilot studies for said hypothesis...NO You really think that undergrads have time to carry out said pilot studies and trouble shoot all of the technical problems they are bound to come in to...NO You really think that undergrads have the time and statistical background to make sense of all the data that they collect...NO You really think that undergrads have time to sit down with all the collected data and write manuscripts...NO

Most undergrads have an hour or two maybe every day (if they are lucky) to put into some lab work. This means that the graduate student has to have the time available to teach the undergrad at that same time that the undergrad comes along to put in their hour. Fortunately for the graduate student, its not their "JOB" to teach the undergrads to do jack...Graduate students are there to do research (and they are reminded of it constantly by the PIs). And generally it comes down to the good'ol Cost:Benifit ratio for the graduate student on whether its worth it or not to spend the time teaching an undergrad to do something more complex or not. The easiest and quickest thing to teach an undergrad to do...you guessed it: wash dishes...if you cant handle that...how the hell are you going to handle tasks that require more attention and dedication. If you can do it well, guess what that provides the graduate student...more time..which, if they can get caught up on all the BS they have to take care of..they might be grateful for your help and teach you something new.

You really think that just because someone becomes a medical student at some point in time, they should be able to TRY surgery...no, your gonna sit there your first two years and learn the basics of medicine...and when you set foot in the OR in 3rd/4th year...your gonna watch and do...SCUT work.

While I agree overall, I think your approach is a bit strong, to be honest. Some of us have done our own lit reviews. Some of us have gotten our own grants to do research. Some of us took courses first to learn the necessary research methods, lab techniques, etc. Some of us have done the research necessary to produce good hypotheses and test them. While this is obviously not true of many UGs, to say that all UG students are so deficient in these areas as to be beyond quick or cost-effective remediation is a pretty broad statement. The fact is that UGs are going to have things still to learn but with good guidance, some will be able to rise to the top quite quickly and some may even be capable (by natural talent) of outperforming the grad student w/ whom they are working. Obviously, you don't really want that last scenario, but you should keep in mind that some do have a lot of potential and I'm not so sure an across-the-board one-size-fits-all approach is the best to use.

 

[ShinyDome19]

While I agree overall, I think your approach is a bit strong, to be honest. Some of us have done our own lit reviews. Some of us have gotten our own grants to do research. Some of us took courses first to learn the necessary research methods, lab techniques, etc. Some of us have done the research necessary to produce good hypotheses and test them. While this is obviously not true of many UGs, to say that all UG students are so deficient in these areas as to be beyond quick or cost-effective remediation is a pretty broad statement. The fact is that UGs are going to have things still to learn but with good guidance, some will be able to rise to the top quite quickly and some may even be capable (by natural talent) of outperforming the grad student w/ whom they are working. Obviously, you don't really want that last scenario, but you should keep in mind that some do have a lot of potential and I'm not so sure an across-the-board one-size-fits-all approach is the best to use.

I never said all - but I agree and in my original post I acknowledged that I came across two very talented undergrads (UG) through my graduate years. But, how many did I have to go through to find those two...dozens..And, you dont generally know that someone is talented and capable of doing everything that is needed for research..Honestly, because most UGs have so little time to dedicate to research, and few truly know what goes in to it, that for the PI/Graduate Student (GS) to have the expectations of them to carry out anything but scut work initially does both the GS and UG a huge disservice as it would somewhat force any UG who wants to TRY research to neglect their basic education and it may waste a lot of the GS's time should the UG figure out they dont like it. If the UG is attentive enough and is interested in research, they will pay attention to what the GS is doing and will learn things here and there...Especially the talented ones. But, regardless of someones talent, if they can handle the menial jobs like washing dishes - because lets be honest, washing dishes is boring...but so is running PCRs every day for months on end..or Westerns or even doing really awesome (atleast to me)things like looking at microbes under an electron microscope...Once you do them tediously..they become boring..And research by its own definition (being repeatable) is monotonous. If you show the GS that you can handle tedious tasks, then it becomes more worth while to teach you and let you do something more difficult.

 

[WildEMDoc]

Wow, this happened to me for the first time a few weeks ago. At first they told me I couldn't even get in because I wasn't a minority in science. Then they let me apply for it and when they asked me what I wanted to do I said I wanted to go into medicine, and there was just this disgusted look on their faces.

Now whenever I apply for things like that I just simply say, "I intend on pursuing a professional degree", I just don't say which one.

 

[JJMrK]

LOL...your right...you dont have to put up with it...Go tell your PI/Graduate Student that your not going to take that kind of crap - because your a undergrad d*mnit!

No need to do that. Just don't work in that lab in the first place. There are plenty of labs where undergrads can get their hands dirty doing the actual research.

 

[El31]

I agree mostly with untraditional. I go to a college where there are no real "biology" majors, everyone is pre-med, and no one has a genuine interest or love for science. It is agitating to research with someone like that, particularly when you have the opportunity to do research with someone who is passionate about the results and diligent in their work. Although I'm a premed as well, science comes first in my mind, and I hate all the other premeds I do research with.

 

[Narmerguy]

Seriously? then you have no idea how important washing dishes in a lab can be. It can be the difference between having an experiment work and not...and when it doesnt, the fact that the person did a piss poor job washing dishes rarely comes to mind, thus leaving you chasing your tail as to why the experiment failed...which costs a lot of time and money.

The whole "Let them TRY research"...WTF is that...So, lets spend a shi* ton of money that has been alloted to the graduate student's personal project - a project the grad. student probably spends 7 days a week working on - on supplies and a ton of the graduate student's time so some undergrad can TRY to do research. Why the heck do you think your entitled to do anything in the lab as an undergrad..especially seeing that you obviously have no idea what research entails. You really think undergrads have the time to sit down and do a literature review of what ever topic they want to do research in...NO You really think that undergrads have time to come up with their own novel hypothesis to test....NO You really think that undergrads have time to setup pilot studies for said hypothesis...NO You really think that undergrads have time to carry out said pilot studies and trouble shoot all of the technical problems they are bound to come in to...NO You really think that undergrads have the time and statistical background to make sense of all the data that they collect...NO You really think that undergrads have time to sit down with all the collected data and write manuscripts...NO

Right because it's basically nothing but wash dishes or create a nobel thesis. There's no in between. Heaven forbid the student receive any guidance or encouragement from the PI. Heaven forbid the student dare dream of something other than washing dishes.

Typically, undergrads think that research comprises of nothing but running gels and doing various techniques, which is all fine and dandy. But, by in order for the graduate student to teach the technique to someone, they have to know it themself and by the time the graduate student gets the technique down to where its working consistantly, which could be a long time, you really think they want to just pass the work on to some noob so the noob can spend months on end trying to get the technique down. No, they want to start collecting some data so they can move on to the next part of their study. Besides that, most undergrads have an hour or two maybe every day (if they are lucky) to put into some lab work. This means that the graduate student has to have the time available to teach the undergrad at that same time that the undergrad comes along to put in their hour. Fortunately for the graduate student, its not their "JOB" to teach the undergrads to do jack...Graduate students have priorities which are to do research (and they are reminded of this constantly by the PIs), to take care of their own coursework and finally if they have time, teach a class. But seeing that graduate students dont get their degree unless they finish their research, they are more likely to put that extra time thowards getting their degree. So its generally going to come down to the good'ol Cost:Benifit ratio for the graduate student on whether its worth it or not to spend the time teaching an undergrad to do something more complex or not. The easiest and quickest thing to teach an undergrad to do...you guessed it: wash dishes...if you cant handle that...how the hell are you going to handle tasks that require more attention and dedication. If you can do it well, guess what that provides the graduate student...more time..which, if they can get caught up on all the BS they have to take care of..they might be grateful for your help and teach you something new.

Right, because me not wanting to join a team to wash their dishes is synonymous with being unable to wash them. Otherwise, we should happily accept the scraps of knowledge the grad student bestows upon us.

You really think that just because someone becomes a medical student at some point in time, they should be able to TRY surgery...no, your gonna sit there your first two years and learn the basics of medicine...and when you set foot in the OR in 3rd/4th year...your gonna watch and do...SCUT work.

If you are unable to discern the difference between the danger of an improperly run surgery vs. an improper western than I have nothing to say here.

LOL...your right...you dont have to put up with it...Go tell your PI/Graduate Student that your not going to take that kind of crap - because your a undergrad d*mnit!

Lol, no. Just avoid labs full of pretentious grad students that think you're there to be walked on because everyone has to take crap at some point. Does it occur to you that some get paid for their research out of the very grant money you declare must be saved and used to it's utmost benefit? Plenty of UG's are extremely interested and perhaps even adept at the work they do and expecting a student who is being introduced to research to be relegated to washing the grad student's dishes is a waste.

I never said all - but I agree and in my original post I acknowledged that I came across two very talented undergrads (UG) through my graduate years. But, how many did I have to go through to find those two...dozens..And, you dont generally know that someone is talented and capable of doing everything that is needed for research..Honestly, because most UGs have so little time to dedicate to research, and few truly know what goes in to it, that for the PI/Graduate Student (GS) to have the expectations of them to carry out anything but scut work initially does both the GS and UG a huge disservice as it would somewhat force any UG who wants to TRY research to neglect their basic education and it may waste a lot of the GS's time should the UG figure out they dont like it. If the UG is attentive enough and is interested in research, they will pay attention to what the GS is doing and will learn things here and there...Especially the talented ones. But, regardless of someones talent, if they can handle the menial jobs like washing dishes - because lets be honest, washing dishes is boring...but so is running PCRs every day for months on end..or Westerns or even doing really awesome (atleast to me)things like looking at microbes under an electron microscope...Once you do them tediously..they become boring..And research by its own definition (being repeatable) is monotonous. If you show the GS that you can handle tedious tasks, then it becomes more worth while to teach you and let you do something more difficult.

Then don't take the students on. Rather than make everyone waste time washing dishes because some of them may not have time for more, just don't take on students that don't have time for more.

Additionally, I would much rather these talented students receive guidance from professors and grad students who want to teach them and educate them first, and exploit second rather than the other way around. It's pretty depressing to me to think that students who may have the potential to get excited about research and perhaps pursue a career in it will never get the proper exposure because they are stuck in labs where they are judged immediately and limited by their perceived status.

I'm done discussing this. With all due respect, I find people who look down on me before because I'm premed or for whatever reason to be very fruitless to debate with.

 

[ShinyDome19]

Right, because me not wanting to join a team to wash their dishes is synonymous with being unable to wash them. Otherwise, we should happily accept the scraps of knowledge the grad student bestows upon us.

First off, you seem to think that GS are there to teach YOU. The fact is really that as an noob UG, you are a burden on the GS. GS are STUDENTS. Their job is to get their own education completed...not help you TRY out research or help you put "Research" on your medical school application...So, yes UGs should be extremely happy with any "SCRAPS" of knowledge they pick up from a GS who takes any amount of time to teach you while they are trying to finish THEIR own research project, which they are soley responsible for and determines if/when they graduate.

If you are unable to discern the difference between the danger of an improperly run surgery vs. an improper western than I have nothing to say here.

Obviously quoted by someone who has spent very little time in a lab...Do you know how many dangerous Flamable/Carcinogenic/Biohazardous/Radioactive et. chemicals and materials are in your everyday biology/biochemistry laboratory...any of which that if used incorrectly can get yourself or other students hurt...let alone burn down a lab.

Lol, no. Just avoid labs full of pretentious grad students that think you're there to be walked on because everyone has to take crap at some point. Does it occur to you that some get paid for their research out of the very grant money you declare must be saved and used to it's utmost benefit? Plenty of UG's are extremely interested and perhaps even adept at the work they do and expecting a student who is being introduced to research to be relegated to washing the grad student's dishes is a waste.

Yes I am fully aware that some researchers are paid from the Grant funding directly. Do you realize that if your getting paid from a grant, that this is called a "JOB" and as such, your supposed to do the "JOB" that your supervisor or Lab manager dictates...Your not being paid to learn new skills...your being paid to do what ever the lab needs you to do. If there is time to teach you some new skills, then great; but, if your told to wash dishes, then you should be washing those damn dishes with a smile on your face because there are a lot of UGs out there interested in research who would gladly wash dishes and be happy to pick up SCRAPS of knowledge which they could use later down the line when they've proven themselves competent enough to be in the lab without full-time supervision...Welcome to the working world... Besides, who said that UGs are there to be walked on...all I said is that washing dishes is the easiest thing to have someone do when they first come into a lab...It allows them to take some of the work off the GS and gives them time to get used to their surroundings...surroundings where if things arnt done properly, can be dangerous. Quit thinking as a student your entitled to tackle curing cancer.

Then don't take the students on. Rather than make everyone waste time washing dishes because some of them may not have time for more, just don't take on students that don't have time for more.

I didnt take on students who thought they were above the menial tasks...what do you think research comprises of...its menial task followed by menial task no matter what level of research you are on. If you cant handle washing some dishes, good luck handling the constant running of PCR or Western...

Additionally, I would much rather these talented students receive guidance from professors and grad students who want to teach them and educate them first, and exploit second rather than the other way around. It's pretty depressing to me to think that students who may have the potential to get excited about research and perhaps pursue a career in it will never get the proper exposure because they are stuck in labs where they are judged immediately and limited by their perceived status.

I'm done discussing this. With all due respect, I find people who look down on me before because I'm premed or for whatever reason to be very fruitless to debate with.

This has nothing to do with a person being pre-med or not. In general, UG students have very little insight in to what research is when they first come in to the lab. I think I covered that pretty well in my last post. The only way to learn what research is, is to participate in it...Washing dishes is a huge part of doing research whether you like it or not...If you cant handle it...then dont participate. If you cant demonstrate to the GS that you are competent enough to wash dishes reliably, then how can you expect them to trust you with a portion of their own research project or to spend the time to guide you in taking on your own project.

 

[fishbait63]

Washing dishes is something that all people in the lab do. I started off lending much more toward a PHD then MD, when I started in a lab I was autoclaving trash... but you know instead of complaining I stuck with it and I got more responsibility. Doing six months of autoclaving trash I still always do a lot of the menial labor to justify my being there and help in anyway I can, that being said I recall the professor I work for telling me that he was treated like a lab tech even when he was a grad student.

Washing dishes, menial labor, etc is part of the lab process thinking that you are privileged and that it is above you are losing a big part of the lab experience. If Alexander Flemming didn't clean his own cultures....

Additionally Pre-meds as a crowd do not have a high yield of researchers, even after working to get into a lab they quit after an a year and all the pre-meds around me complain that "They hate research". Professors notice this in classes when they are walking by thus we do a disservice to our own group by speaking so openly as a group that we disdain research.

 

[batch5000]

lol

 

[TFA2010]

I agree that it will differ greatly between labs and even graduate students. If you go to a lab that has a ton of funding and pays its graduate students a research stipend, your graduate students will have more time to dedicate to pure research and teaching the undergrads. If your lab was like my'n, where you have to teach 1-2 classes every semester (I had to instruct 2 undergrad laboratory classes which were 2 -3 hours long each, twice a week..also had to prep 100+ cultures for the classes, grade + create exams, hold office hours..etc)...on top of that, I had my own classes that I had to attend and study for, if your graduate student is finished with classes, they will have more time...I also had meetings with my PI and graduate committee nearly every week...and I had to find time to do my research and make some sense of the data collected that week.

On top of that, research has a lot more involved with it than what the average undergrads see for the most part. Most undergrads never see the literature searches and mounds of papers that have to be read on a regular basis in order to stay on top of the current research. The collaborations with other labmates and professors that have to be made (statisticians, bioinformaticians, etc..)..The small projects like reviewing papers for the PI...Heck, most undergrads never see the frustration of running the statistics on the data, just the collection of the data itself. Some graduate students work all day for 7-days a week because they are trying to graduate as quickly as possible..others, are not in any rush to graduate and as such, more likely to sit down and teach an undergrad.

I totally agree - I think labs can vary greatly in their approach to premeds and on the flip side premeds can vary greatly also. In our lab we've had some really awesome premeds and then some not so great ones. What mattered most to us was not really the time or "amount" or work they did but how much effort they put and how much they understood and cared about what we were doing. From a PI or grad students point of view, the research they're doing is not just "work" but something they're actually passionate about. So when a premed comes in for a semester, wants results as quickly as possible, has no real idea what he/she is doing and then leaves everyone else in lab to clean up the mess it can make a PI take this kind of attitude. I say if you are actually, genuinely interested in the research and not just in it for the publication or resume booster, people will be able to tell and they'll definately give you a chance.

 

[kami333]

This thread reminded me that I had some trash to autoclave


We just moved to a new institution and didn't know what to do with the bio trash so it was sitting in the corner of the lab for the last month

 

[JJMrK]

Washing dishes is something that all people in the lab do. I started off lending much more toward a PHD then MD, when I started in a lab I was autoclaving trash... but you know instead of complaining I stuck with it and I got more responsibility. Doing six months of autoclaving trash I still always do a lot of the menial labor to justify my being there and help in anyway I can, that being said I recall the professor I work for telling me that he was treated like a lab tech even when he was a grad student.

Washing dishes, menial labor, etc is part of the lab process thinking that you are privileged and that it is above you are losing a big part of the lab experience. If Alexander Flemming didn't clean his own cultures....

Additionally Pre-meds as a crowd do not have a high yield of researchers, even after working to get into a lab they quit after an a year and all the pre-meds around me complain that "They hate research". Professors notice this in classes when they are walking by thus we do a disservice to our own group by speaking so openly as a group that we disdain research.

This is not true universally. I would never recommend that a student join a lab in which they are only responsible for housekeeping tasks.

 

[fishbait63]

This is not true universally. I would never recommend that a student join a lab in which they are only responsible for housekeeping tasks.

I meant washing dishes as a metaphor for housekeeping tasks in general, but i concede the fact there are some labs that do not have as many housekeeping task (computational research comes to mind).

I do agree that it is not research if it is only housekeeping tasks and one should not stay in a lab (unless you are getting paid or receive some other benefit) that doesn't teach you and merely expects you to make gels and only do housekeeping. Keep in mind some schools require LOR from all your PIs.... and a six month span with a quick leave will leave you with either no LOR or worse yet a BAD LOR; so do research (no pun intended) before you join a lab, if anything talk to the undergrads and see if their lab is pre-med friendly.

 

[mechanictodr]

A lot of PI's want to give positions to people who are also perusing a PhD and might actually use their lab experience in the future and not only for a resume. That's my general impression. It's like a doctor giving up some time to allow a student to shadow them who is going into business law or something like that. Although, I can see that research and medicine have more in common.

My old employer used to research heavily each candidate's references and work history and aske each one if they had ever shown an interest in medicine. If there was even a hint of it... no job for you. Many PhD's had courses with med students and have quite a bit of angst towards them.

My advice is to forget medicine. If it's meant for you it will happen, your ducks will line up. Pursue what interests you in research and in clinical experience and it will show. If, after getting said exerience, you still have an interest in medicine then bring it up with those you have worked hard for and they will write you beaming letters. Never go into a job or conduct research with people knowing that the main reason is to use it just to gain acceptance to medical school.

 

[Practitioner]

Wow, I had no idea there was this perception towards premeds.

As a fellow rejectee of a research position, I can tell you the main reason behind this. It's because they are concerned about longevity. They think pre-meds are using this job as a stepping stone to get into medical school. They know you will leave and they don't want to take that risk and time/effort in training you. Hope that helps!

I would have thought you could avoid this by just being candid and say "I can give you 15hr/week for the next 3 months" and get a project that fits that. Personally, I ended up pippetting solutions into tubes and submerging them in liquid nitrogen (40hr/week x8 week). Didn't need much training, even though there were other projects I was MUCH more interested in the PI was frank in return with me and said by the time I got my training I'd be leaving.

I also understand that if the bias exists like people here make it seem, then not all PIs will take you seriously regardless. I guess I've been fortunate so far not to have run into this (or even hear of it) till now.

 

[saveourpens]

my advice for us pre-meds is don't walk into the first research lab that gives you some position.

only after my interview for my micro-bio lab, was she like, oh and first you're going to have to do some bitch work. I wish I realized sooner that I was only accepted there to be exploited.

She never invited me to ANY lab meetings and teaching me about any of the concepts in the lab was pretty secondary to her....then she tells me we need to "have a talk" because I'm not showing enough interest. Yes, making LB and gels is pretty fascinating, but I have better things to do. SEE YA

 

[JJMrK]

I meant washing dishes as a metaphor for housekeeping tasks in general, but i concede the fact there are some labs that do not have as many housekeeping task (computational research comes to mind).

I do agree that it is not research if it is only housekeeping tasks and one should not stay in a lab (unless you are getting paid or receive some other benefit) that doesn't teach you and merely expects you to make gels and only do housekeeping. Keep in mind some schools require LOR from all your PIs.... and a six month span with a quick leave will leave you with either no LOR or worse yet a BAD LOR; so do research (no pun intended) before you join a lab, if anything talk to the undergrads and see if their lab is pre-med friendly.

That's really all I meant. It doesn't make sense to join a lab that only wants you to do housekeeping stuff, especially since there are many that will allow you to do actual research.

 

[studmuffin]

I'm doing chemistry research right now, and I haven't felt like I was discriminated against because I was pre med. I think most of the professors at my school like pre meds. The only other undergraduate and myself that work in our lab are both pre med.

 

[studmuffin]

I think alot of them like pre meds just cuz were serious

 

[Excelsius]

Most of the professors I have known do not like to take pre-meds into their lab. One of them even overtly told me that the ideal candidate for her lab would have a GPA between 3.3 and 3.7. Anything above, she wouldn't accept. The logic is that if someone is spending all the time trying to get the perfect GPA, research will be tertiary to that person. In some labs you can wash dishes etc, but there are some complicated projects out there that washing anything happens very rarely. These labs don't really need someone there to do menial tasks, which are minimum. They rather want commitment. It comes in two forms: time commitment and duration commitment. When I started at one of the labs, I had to be there 20 hours a week for weeks, sometimes during the weekend, before I could learn. But that's not enough - after a lab invests all that time in you, it wants something in return. In my case, I was expected to generate papers. For this to happen, you need to stick around for a year or more. How many pre-meds can truly satisfy both of these conditions? When you are trying to get a 4.0 and your ECs are filled with a lot of fluff, it doesn't leave much time to go to a lab. Many of you here are getting into research not because of interest, but because it is one more thing to mark on your resume on your way to medschool. It shouldn't be surprising that labs don't want premeds.

Having said that, I can say with confidence that almost no one ever gets denied a position because of premed status alone. Everyone who didn't get into a lab and blames the premed status is missing something. It is likely you didn't get in not because you are a premed in words, but rather that you fit the stereotypical premed. Even the way you bring up your status can say a lot. There are some premeds who truly like research and commit to it. They never get denied just because they are premed. Given that you are possibly going to affect the output of an entire lab, you should consider doing research only if you like it.