Relatively high stats, 0 interviews. Do I need to add DO?

[Jaigantic]

So I applied to ~28 MD schools, have received 2 rejections and silence from all the rest. My LizzyM is ~75 with a 3.97 GPA and 516 MCAT. From what I could tell from others on SDN, people with similar stats already have 4-6 IIs. I know LizzyM's rule of thumb is if you don't have an II by Thanksgiving then one could start to be worried but does the fact that I have relatively high stats with no IIs be some cause for concern, even at this point?

It's also worth mentioning that I am an international student so that may have some role in my situation. Is this likely or is it possible that there is some sort of red flag in my app?

My guess is that it's the international student thing. With this in my mind, should I consider adding some DO schools to my list or is it too late for even DO?

I will also include my school list, which I know is top heavy but this was out of necessity since it is mainly top tiers that even consider international students. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

Boston University
Rosalind Franklin
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Duke
Emory
Feinberg
Harvard
Icahn
Jefferson
Johns Hopkins
Medical College of Wisconsin
NYMC
Penn State
Perelman
Stanford
Stony Brook
Tulane (rejected)
UCLA
University of Chicago
UIC
University of Pittsburgh (rejected)

Washington University in St. Louis
Vanderbilt
Yale

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[ChymeofPassion]

School List/International.

Add DO

 

[PreMedMissteps]

It's also worth mentioning that I am an international student

Yes, that's significant. You're also at a disadvantage that you don't have any instate schools.

Which DO schools are known to accept a good number of int'l students? Any?

 

[gyngyn]

Less than 300 internationals matriculate in an average year.
Some of the schools on your list matriculate very few internationals (e.g. Geffen).
It's still pretty early but hopefully, you will do well in your home country.

 

[Jaigantic]

Less than 300 internationals matriculate in an average year.
Some of the schools on your list matriculate very few internationals (e.g. Geffen).
It's still pretty early but hopefully, you will do well in your home country.

I consider America to be my home country and don't plan on doing medical school in my country of citizenship, if that's what you mean. Do you think I should add some DO schools to my list or wait this cycle out and then apply MD and DO next cycle if I don't get in somewhere.

Also, does anyone have data on the stats for average international MD acceptee?

 

[deleted480308]

It seems like you might have went top heavy

 

[gyngyn]

I consider America to be my home country and don't plan on doing medical school in my country of citizenship, if that's what you mean. Do you think I should add some DO schools to my list or wait this cycle out and then apply MD and DO next cycle if I don't get in somewhere.

Also, does anyone have data on the stats for average international MD acceptee?

International applicants are viewed very differently (even if they view the US to be their home).
The mean MCAT for international matriculants is 512. The mean gpa is 3.74.
Schools in MI tend to take quite a few.

There are about a dozen DO schools that consider internationals.

 

[Jaigantic]

It seems like you might have went top heavy

Yeah, i know but like I said, it was out of necessity since only those schools consider internationals.

International applicants are viewed very differently (even if they view the US to be their home).
The mean MCAT for international matriculants is 512. The mean gpa is 3.74.
Schools in MI tend to take quite a few.

There are about a dozen DO schools that consider internationals.

Really? According to the MSAR, only Wayne State accepts internationals of all the schools in michigan and theyre a public school. Although they did matriculate a decent amount last cycle so I'm not sure how they slipped under my radar when I was making my school list. In your opinion, is it too late to submit a primary for wayne state?

 

[gyngyn]

Really? According to the MSAR, only Wayne State accepts internationals of all the schools in michigan and theyre a public school. Although they did matriculate a decent amount last cycle so I'm not sure how they slipped under my radar when I was making my school list. In your opinion, is it too late to submit a primary for wayne state?

In addition to Wayne, both Central MI and Oakland matriculated more internationals than UCLA (5 and 4, respectively).
A new submission will received in a single business day.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

International applicants are viewed very differently (even if they view the US to be their home).
The mean MCAT for international matriculants is 512. The mean gpa is 3.74.
Schools in MI tend to take quite a few.

There are about a dozen DO schools that consider internationals.

Is this for MD schools, or the dozen DO schools that consider international applicants? @Goro says that you need to be Harvard-grade to be competitive as an international student, and that means 3.8+/517+ at a minimum with stellar ECs; 512 seems a little low, especially for the likes of Harvard.

 

[summergirl]

You applied way too high for an international. We have a small number of internationals at our school, which is lower tiered than arguably 90% of the schools on your list, and literally every international student here (except me lol) has similar stats to your's and this school was the only school that took us (yes we all each only got one acceptance). And those kids all went to super intense undergrad programs too like Ivey engineerings, so...you need to apply lower.

 

[gyngyn]

Is this for MD schools, or the dozen DO schools that consider international applicants? @Goro says that you need to be Harvard-grade to be competitive as an international student, and that means 3.8+/517+ at a minimum with stellar ECs; 512 seems a little low, especially for the likes of Harvard.

These are for MD schools.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/factstablea20.pdf

 

[krukshanks]

Less than 300 internationals matriculate in an average year.
Some of the schools on your list matriculate very few internationals (e.g. Geffen).
It's still pretty early but hopefully, you will do well in your home country.

Actually Geffen took quite a few international students a year ago. I applied last cycle, and my MSAR from last year indicated that there were 11 international matriculants. I don't have access to this year's MSAR, but I know at least three international students (including me) who got in, one with a Geffen Scholarship. Granted two of us turned down the offer, so we are probably not counted in the MSAR data.

But yeah, this school list is quite top heavy, and honestly I probably would suggest adding more low-yield schools regardless of OP's citizenship.

 

[Jaigantic]

You applied way too high for an international. We have a small number of internationals at our school, which is lower tiered than arguably 90% of the schools on your list, and literally every international student here (except me lol) has similar stats to your's and this school was the only school that took us (yes we all each only got one acceptance). And those kids all went to super intense undergrad programs too like Ivey engineerings, so...you need to apply lower.

Actually Geffen took quite a few international students a year ago. I applied last cycle, and my MSAR from last year indicated that there were 11 international matriculants. I don't have access to this year's MSAR, but I know at least three international students (including me) who got in, one with a Geffen Scholarship. Granted two of us turned down the offer, so we are probably not counted in the MSAR data.

But yeah, this school list is quite top heavy, and honestly I probably would suggest adding more low-yield schools regardless of OP's citizenship.

What other schools could I even add? I included most schools that the MSAR indicated as accepting internationals so idek what else I could add! Are you guys canadians?

In addition to Wayne, both Central MI and Oakland matriculated more internationals than UCLA (5 and 4, respectively).
A new submission will received in a single business day.

Those two accept only canadians and unfortunately I'm a non-canadian international. So that's why I didn't include them.

 

[krukshanks]

What other schools could I even add? I included most schools that the MSAR indicated as accepting internationals so idek what else I could add! Are you guys canadians?


Those two accept only canadians and unfortunately I'm a non-canadian international. So that's why I didn't include them.

Nope, none of us are Canadians. You can add SLU. Kentucky would have been another ok option if it were earlier...

 

[Jaigantic]

Nope, none of us are Canadians. You can add SLU. Kentucky would have been another ok option if it were earlier...

I purposely didn't add SLU b/c they required you to front the whole tuition or something like that. Couldn't afford it.

 

[krukshanks]

I purposely didn't add SLU b/c they required you to front the whole tuition or something like that. Couldn't afford it.

WashU is the same tho

 

[Jaigantic]

WashU is the same tho

I have a scholarship from a gov that covers my tuition. WashU said that would suffice but not SLU

 

[krukshanks]

I have a scholarship from a gov that covers my tuition. WashU said that would suffice but not SLU

Ugh that's unfortunate. But it's still early in the cycle though, and last year around this time I only had 2 IIs (Kentucky and WashU), LizzyM 78.

 

[Jaigantic]

Ugh that's unfortunate. But it's still early in the cycle though, and last year around this time I only had 2 IIs (Kentucky and WashU), LizzyM 78.

Well, I guess I'll have to be patient. I actually dreamt that I got an II (not even an acceptance, just an II) from WashU. That same day I got a rejection from Pitt hahaha.

 

[Ms.Pediatrician]

I'm rooting for you! I'm also a non-US citizen with similar stats but I am a permanent resident which is probably why I have received more love from schools than you have. Fingers crossed you hear some good news soon!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's also worth mentioning that I am an international student so that may have some role in my situation.

This is very significant andif that wasn't enough you basically applied to only the top schools in the country with stats that are at or below their averages. Beyond that I don't know very much about the international application ins and outs, these posters above are an excellent resource.

 

[Jaigantic]

I'm rooting for you! I'm also a non-US citizen with similar stats but I am a permanent resident which is probably why I have received more love from schools than you have. Fingers crossed you hear some good news soon!

Yeah as far as I know permanent residents are on equal grounds with citizens. And thank you for the kind words, hope your cycle goes great as well (it seems it already is haha)!

 

[Ms.Pediatrician]

Thank you You are very competitive for DO schools if you are not opposed to going DO. It would be a good back up option for you regardless and it's definitely not too late to apply with your stats. Most countries won't let you practice medicine with a DO degree though so just keep that in mind in case you ever decide to leave the US.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Most countries won't let you practice medicine with a DO degree though so just keep that in mind in case you ever decide to leave the US.

Myth

 

[Ms.Pediatrician]

Myth

This is most certainly not a myth! There are some countries which will allow you to practice with a DO degree but then there are some which won't. If you want to practice in Europe, as a DO you are pretty much limited to manipulation only in most countries. OP, you should research the practice laws in your home country and any other country that you'd be interested in working in & see if DO is accepted there. That should help you with making your decision.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is most certainly not a myth! There are some countries which will allow you to practice with a DO degree but then there are some which won't. If you want to practice in Europe, as a DO you are pretty much limited to manipulation only in most countries. OP, you should research the practice laws in your home country and any other country that you'd be interested in working in & see if DO is accepted there. That should help you with making your decision.

Yes it is. Please actually do some research before you post and spout uninformed "facts." Look at the list in the international section.

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia

The only European countries that are listed as restricted are France and Norway. This list was directly supplied to Wikipedia by the AOA.

In addition in many of these restricted countries if you are working with an international medical group, like Doctors Without Borders, then you have full practice rights during your time there.


Edit: I also want to add that either MD or DO you can't just waltz into another country and practice medicine without jumping through mountains of paperwork and various hoops, so do not believe for a second that MDs have it any easier.

 

[Jaigantic]

Although I would obviously prefer MD and hope to still get into one, it seems like it's probably a good idea to add in a few DO schools.

As far as country of practice goes, I would prefer to stay in the US as I have lived here nearly all my life, despite my international status (it's a long story). My only worry is the limited practice opportunities for DO in comparison to MD but from what I can see on SDN it seems that this gap is being bridged as well. Here's hoping for the best!