Religion and Medicine

[OncoCaP]

There! That should do it!

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[DropkickMurphy]

OMG

 

[Steiner]

They look very happy despite where they're headed.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

OMG

In the spirit of that special time in a woman's reproductive cycle and how some girls keep their guy's needs met

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

The problem with these threads is that usually the religious people say how much religion matters to them, and then the atheist contingent comes in and 1.) ridicules religious people; 2.) brings up things that were never previously discussed and are obviously provocative (evangelicals in the US, intelligent design, abortion, etc.); 3.) demand "tolerance" for their own beliefs/lifestyle while screeching how religion "has no place in science" and religious people don't belong in medical school (or something equally inane). Then there's a flame war and the thread is closed or relegated to obscurity.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Or the other option:

 

[DropkickMurphy]

religious people don't belong in medical school

Nah, if they can keep their beliefs to themselves unless it is absolutely pertinent to the situation at hand- just like I don't bring up my views on religion unless asked or otherwise provoked- then it is perfectly fine and they tend to make fine doctors.

Just as you don't think we're fit to judge you, you're not fit to judge us. The sword cuts both ways Mercapto. If you wish for me to respect your views despite disagreeing, then have the same courtesy even though you disagree. That is my point, always has been, and always will be.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Nah, if they can keep their beliefs to themselves unless it is absolutely pertinent to the situation at hand- just like I don't bring up my views on religion unless asked or otherwise provoked- then it is perfectly fine and they tend to make fine doctors.

Just as you don't think we're fit to judge you, you're not fit to judge us. The sword cuts both ways Mercapto. If you wish for me to respect your views despite disagreeing, then have the same courtesy even though you disagree. That is my point, always has been, and always will be.

No argument there. The sticking point is when you think it is my *duty* to give you an abortion or help you kill yourself or give you birth control so you can cheat on your spouse. It is NOT my duty to help you in things that transgress my morals and neither is it my duty to help you find others who are willing to help you towards that end.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

No argument there. The sticking point is when you think it is my *duty* to give you an abortion or help you kill yourself or give you birth control so you can cheat on your spouse. It is NOT my duty to help you in things that transgress my morals and neither is it my duty to help you find others who are willing to help you towards that end.

No, I never said you had to do any of those (I personally won't perform routine abortions either, but not because of any moral or religious reason). I just don't feel that browbeating people (particularly patients) because you disagree is appropriate either. A simple "Sorry, but I don't do that. You'll need to find a different doctor if you want that done" will suffice in 99.99% of cases without a need to get into the why of your choice not to offer whatever.

Not to digress but I just wonder why you immediately assume BCPs are for cheating on your spouse. That is my one point of contention regarding that post. *shrugs*

 

[Doc Henry]

agnostic

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

No, I never said you had to do any of those (I personally won't perform routine abortions either, but not because of any moral or religious reason). I just don't feel that browbeating people (particularly patients) because you disagree is appropriate either. A simple "Sorry, but I don't do that. You'll need to find a different doctor if you want that done" will suffice in 99.99% of cases without a need to get into the why of your choice not to offer whatever.

Not to digress but I just wonder why you immediately assume BCPs are for cheating on your spouse. That is my one point of contention regarding that post. *shrugs*

Who said I would browbeat anyone?

As for BC, not opposed to it in principle (depending on the method), but if I knew someone was cheating on a spouse, I would not give it to them.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

"Never trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die" -Isn't that Mr. Garrison

Why don't you share Mr. Garrison's view on the causes of terrorism (Cartoon Wars pt. 1)? BTW your avatar is hillarious. I wonder how many people don't get it...

DKM--the pics are killing me.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Who said I would browbeat anyone?

As for BC, not opposed to it in principle (depending on the method), but if I knew someone was cheating on a spouse, I would not give it to them.

Neither would I if I knew that's why they wanted it. By the way thank you for clarifying your views on BC......what methods do you have problems with and which do you not (if you don't mind my asking)?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Why don't you share Mr. Garrison's view on the causes of terrorism (Cartoon Wars pt. 1)? BTW your avatar is hillarious. I wonder how many people don't get it...

DKM--the pics are killing me.

I'm glad you like the pics.....

 

[smeagol]

There seems to be a gross misunderstanding with regards to the incompatibility of science and religion.

If you look at the arguments of some modern philosophers, it is the exact opposite. Theists are the ones who rely more heavily on empirical evidence (for Cosmological/Teleological arguments). If anyone is interested on where I am coming from I recommend a book called God? An Argument between a Christian and an atheist.

I wholeheartedly agree that those who deny evolution are kidding themselves and/or misunderstand it. The most abhorred aspect of the Intelligent Design is that it tries to deny evolution. Unfortunately our president is in favor of this notion. But it is also a misunderstanding to associate evolution as a reason to believe in the nonexistence of a "God." Such arguments are regarded to be very weak in the philosophical community (here aren't many respected dogmatic theists).

I've seen it mentioned in some previous posts and this notion is right on; the most powerful argument for atheism is the problem of evil, not some contradiction with evolution.

 

[Steiner]

Why don't you share Mr. Garrison's view on the causes of terrorism (Cartoon Wars pt. 1)? BTW your avatar is hillarious. I wonder how many people don't get it...

DKM--the pics are killing me.

There was a thread a while back where people discussed offensive avatars and some people had no idea what mine was. It was like dealing with a kindergarten class. They were so naive it was unbelievable. Not just about my avatar, but a lot of stuff.

 

[Steiner]

The problem with these threads is that usually the religious people say how much religion matters to them, and then the atheist contingent comes in and 1.) ridicules religious people; 2.) brings up things that were never previously discussed and are obviously provocative (evangelicals in the US, intelligent design, abortion, etc.); 3.) demand "tolerance" for their own beliefs/lifestyle while screeching how religion "has no place in science" and religious people don't belong in medical school (or something equally inane). Then there's a flame war and the thread is closed or relegated to obscurity.

I agree with a lot of stuff here, although it can apply to all things not just internet forums. The bad thing is the people who get their voices heard and get publicity are not the moderate Christian people who do their own thing. They're wackos. Then everyone starts labeling any person who mentions God or religion in any context outside a church as a Bible-thumping right-wing psycho. Be careful with presumptions. Conservative people as well, they usually opt for slapping the left-wing, anti-American tag on anyone who questions the current administration and military activity right now.

 

[Pipacus]

everything is random. entropy is truth.

ppl cling to some hope of a higher power so that they can avoid the reality that one day they will die, rot and cease to exist. nothingness is scarier than hell. That is why from the beginning of time people have worshiped fantastic entities to deal with the finality of death.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

There was a thread a while back where people discussed offensive avatars and some people had no idea what mine was. It was like dealing with a kindergarten class. They were so naive it was unbelievable. Not just about my avatar, but a lot of stuff.

Wow. the world of SDN.

Shock on brotha!

 

[Stolenspatulas]

In the spirit of that special time in a woman's reproductive cycle and how some girls keep their guy's needs met

DKM, you're awesome dude.... I wish I could get away with so much

 

[Haemulon]

There was a thread a while back where people discussed offensive avatars and some people had no idea what mine was. It was like dealing with a kindergarten class. They were so naive it was unbelievable. Not just about my avatar, but a lot of stuff.

I see you have included me in your sig. I never thoughout that I would eventually be immortalized in the context of this particular concept. I guess I should be glad that your avatar did not depict something of a more provocative Sanchez variety, perhaps something with "Cleveland" in its name.

Edit: Its very interesting that the topic of your avatar and a certain Mr. Sanchez has now been discussed withinin the context of a religion and medicine thread. Lord help us all.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Its very interesting that the topic of your avatar and a certain Mr. Sanchez has now been discussed withinin the context of a religion and medicine thread. Lord help us all.

To every purpose under Heaven, there is a season....

 

[KeyzerSoze]

People come to doctors for medical treatment. If they need spiritual treatment, they should go to clergy. Reproductive therapy? Either go home and pray for ovulation or accept that the nine babies coming out of your vag are the result of human technology and not God.

What a lovely, mature way of putting things.

Are you serious? Do you not realize that religious people have been practicing and using medicine for thousands of years, and the vast majority of religious people don't see any contradiction between prayer and seeking medical treatment? Would you also tell people who say Grace thanking God "for their daily bread" or something along those lines that they should either quit their jobs or stop praying because their income is a result of human economy and not God?

As you a physician, you are there to provide medical treatment, true. But you ought to be accepting of a more holistic view of your patient's treatment if he chooses to include prayer, meditation, etc. It bespeaks an incredible arrogance on your part that you think people must only choose one or other.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

What a lovely, mature way of putting things.

Are you serious? Do you not realize that religious people have been practicing and using medicine for thousands of years, and the vast majority of religious people don't see any contradiction between prayer and seeking medical treatment? Would you also tell people who say Grace thanking God "for their daily bread" or something along those lines that they should either quit their jobs or stop praying because their income is a result of human economy and not God?

As you a physician, you are there to provide medical treatment, true. But you ought to be accepting of a more holistic view of your patient's treatment if he chooses to include prayer, meditation, etc. It bespeaks an incredible arrogance on your part that you think people must only choose one or other.

well said

 

[DropkickMurphy]

well said

Agreed.....

 

[ICCONFETTI]

What a lovely, mature way of putting things.

Are you serious? Do you not realize that religious people have been practicing and using medicine for thousands of years, and the vast majority of religious people don't see any contradiction between prayer and seeking medical treatment? Would you also tell people who say Grace thanking God "for their daily bread" or something along those lines that they should either quit their jobs or stop praying because their income is a result of human economy and not God?

As you a physician, you are there to provide medical treatment, true. But you ought to be accepting of a more holistic view of your patient's treatment if he chooses to include prayer, meditation, etc. It bespeaks an incredible arrogance on your part that you think people must only choose one or other.

 

[Steiner]

What a lovely, mature way of putting things.

Are you serious? Do you not realize that religious people have been practicing and using medicine for thousands of years, and the vast majority of religious people don't see any contradiction between prayer and seeking medical treatment? Would you also tell people who say Grace thanking God "for their daily bread" or something along those lines that they should either quit their jobs or stop praying because their income is a result of human economy and not God?

As you a physician, you are there to provide medical treatment, true. But you ought to be accepting of a more holistic view of your patient's treatment if he chooses to include prayer, meditation, etc. It bespeaks an incredible arrogance on your part that you think people must only choose one or other.

Pretty well said for a cold blooded killer. Your own wife and child!

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Pretty well said for a cold blooded killer. Your own wife and child!

What was I supposed to do? Let the Hungarians think I'm some kind of wimp?

 

[Wizard of Oz]

What a lovely, mature way of putting things.

Are you serious? Do you not realize that religious people have been practicing and using medicine for thousands of years, and the vast majority of religious people don't see any contradiction between prayer and seeking medical treatment? Would you also tell people who say Grace thanking God "for their daily bread" or something along those lines that they should either quit their jobs or stop praying because their income is a result of human economy and not God?

As you a physician, you are there to provide medical treatment, true. But you ought to be accepting of a more holistic view of your patient's treatment if he chooses to include prayer, meditation, etc. It bespeaks an incredible arrogance on your part that you think people must only choose one or other.

You want prayer? Get out of my office. Meditation? Okay, but I can't counsel you about that in my office or on your dime.

I do like the daily bread comment. I think that I'll include that in my next thread. Thanks!

Naw I ought not endorse any non-medical intervention. My license wouldn't cover it. Arrogant? Okay. I just take offense when people attribute good things to God and unfortunate things to nature.

I think that I had a similar discussion on allo...

I have some pretty big issues with the whole religion/science/healthcare grey areas, but then again, I live in a state that continues to try to teach unprovable theories to our children in the name of science on a yearly basis (see under my avatar).

With the extreme beliefs that I've witnessed, I'm inclined to take the Jack Nicholson position from "A Few Good Men..."

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way."

The problem comes when people want to have their cake and eat it too. God brings us children, but when a tornado wipes your house out, no that was Mother Nature (even if your insurance company calls it an act of God). God brings us the science that creates medicine (Pfizer has his email address in exchange for company stock), but when that science tells us that we are embryonically homologous to fish, then the science is evil.

I think I'm gonna become an anesthesiologist. Okay, ma'am, I have your epidural, but you have to tell me whether or not primates have a common ancestor first. No, you say? Okay well since this stuff works on all primates, I'm going to have to find something human-specific just for you. I'll get back to you on that one.

So to those who want a natural process, more power to you. I know a midwife who can help you with a natural birth. If you come to the hospital for healthcare, though, don't be surprised when we want to provide it.

 

[8744]

Orthodox Christian. And without the angst, uncertainty, and doubt of the rest of you on this, perhaps the most asinine thread to ever appear on SDN.

 

[Eric Lindros]

this thread is ******ed, excuse my french

and isn't it ironic; a thread that clearly has nothing to do with pre-allo stays in pre-allo on the basis of everyone ranting and flaming, yet it's probably the worst thread ever.

sweet

 

[monwilli]

I consider myself to be spiritual as opposed to religious. Though I believe in a higher power, there isn't a particular religion whose single doctrine I can completely agree with.

 

[TCIrish03]

Did anyone ever stop to consider that it is possible to reconcile science with religion?

The Catholic faith teaches that God exists, and that evolution is possible.

People tend to affiliate "religion" only with "Fundamentalist Christians"....I sure as hell don't want to be lumped in that group.

 

[gujuDoc]

There seems to be a gross misunderstanding with regards to the incompatibility of science and religion.

If you look at the arguments of some modern philosophers, it is the exact opposite. Theists are the ones who rely more heavily on empirical evidence (for Cosmological/Teleological arguments). If anyone is interested on where I am coming from I recommend a book called God? An Argument between a Christian and an atheist.

I wholeheartedly agree that those who deny evolution are kidding themselves and/or misunderstand it. The most abhorred aspect of the Intelligent Design is that it tries to deny evolution. Unfortunately our president is in favor of this notion. But it is also a misunderstanding to associate evolution as a reason to believe in the nonexistence of a "God." Such arguments are regarded to be very weak in the philosophical community (here aren't many respected dogmatic theists).

I've seen it mentioned in some previous posts and this notion is right on; the most powerful argument for atheism is the problem of evil, not some contradiction with evolution.

Good post. I think the problem with a lot of people is that they are either too far to the left or too far to the right but don't take the middle ground. I believe in religion to a certain extent and think religion to a certain degree is a way of giving moral guidance and a set of codes and rules to live one's life by and try to find some explanation for why we are here in this world. Before modern science religion was the only means of finding explanations for various phenomena but a lot of people want to take those things that are written in the religious books too seriously to the exact literal meaning rather then looking at the hidden meaning in those stories. If you examine any religious book, you'll find basic similarities despite who they name their god, how they word their stories, and what their cultural beliefs are. Read a book called "The Hero with a 1000 faces" by Joseph Campbell. He explores this theme throughout several of his books.

Conversely, I don't think that there is no god either. I think if you completely ban religion from your life you are also doing a disservice to yourself because religion gives a sense of faith to hang on to and help us on a psychological/emotional level through the rough times in life. It also gives us moral guidance and principles to follow to maintain order in this world.

In all, my personal beliefs are that there is a god that created the elements and set the clock in motion to allow the scientific processes we believe in to exist. But if phenomena like evolution have happened, its because a god put it in motion through their creation of the elements that make evolution possible. But that's just MY OPINION ONLY!

 

[gujuDoc]

Did anyone ever stop to consider that it is possible to reconcile science with religion?

The Catholic faith teaches that God exists, and that evolution is possible.

People tend to affiliate "religion" only with "Fundamentalist Christians"....I sure as hell don't want to be lumped in that group.

yeah which is why its sad that people like micah armstrong still exist out there.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Did anyone ever stop to consider that it is possible to reconcile science with religion?

The Catholic faith teaches that God exists, and that evolution is possible.

and that birth control should not be allowed, clergy shouldn't marry, divorce is prohibited, etc.

Probably not the best example of an organized religion in this country since the majority of us raised Catholic (myself included) don't embrace the denomination's beliefs as a whole.

...without the angst, uncertainty, and doubt of the rest of you on this, perhaps the most asinine thread to ever appear on SDN.

Trudat!

 

[TCIrish03]

The debate was concerning whether it is possible for religion (namely Christianity, since it seems to bear the brunt of criticism) to be compatible with science. I can only speak definitively about the religion I know, but I'm sure others qualify. Divorce, premarital sex, etc has no bearing on that discussion, and is a topic for another day.

 

[45408]

Theist, but certainly not the same kind that I was a few years ago.....

I've been reading the Language of God, by Francis Collins (head of the genome project). It's a good book.

 

[gujuDoc]

The debate was concerning whether it is possible for religion (namely Christianity, since it seems to bear the brunt of criticism) to be compatible with science. Divorce, premarital sex, etc has no bearing on that discussion, and is a topic for another day.

In that case, then yes it is possible. But I think the reason it bothers some people is because if they see some of the contradictions that science is causing for religion in their eyes, then they feel that people will doubt other aspects of religion too.

 

[45408]

There was a thread a while back where people discussed offensive avatars and some people had no idea what mine was. It was like dealing with a kindergarten class. They were so naive it was unbelievable. Not just about my avatar, but a lot of stuff.

Yeah, we explained what "skeet skeet" and something else (I forgot) was to a fellow M1 a few weeks ago. I resisted the temptation to mention duck butter or femunda cheese.

 

[45408]

Religion wouldn't work if they didn't indoctrinate you at an early age. If everyone was allowed to choose if they believed or not when they were old enough to actually be able to objectively think about it, no one in there right mind would fall for it.

Go look up Francis Collins or C.S. Lewis and eat your words.

 

[TCIrish03]

Aristotle was wickid smaht too

 

[Stolenspatulas]

whoa this thread has evolved crazily since yesterday

 

[Badger4Life]

I was accepted at several Jesuit schools, do you think attending one of them would negatively affect my medical career? I guess I am a little worried about having my degree associated with a religious institution.

 

[TCIrish03]

To the OP: yeah, this jumped the shark long ago. I guess here is the simplified answer to the question you originally asked: http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml

Survey on physicians’ religious beliefs shows majority faithful
By John Easton
Medical Center Public Affairs

The first study of physician religious beliefs has found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife. The survey, performed by researchers at the University and published in the July issue of the Journal of General Internal Medicine, found that 90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults. Fifty-five percent of doctors say their religious beliefs influence how they practice medicine.

These results were not anticipated. Religious belief tends to decrease as education and income levels increase, yet doctors are highly educated and, on average, well compensated. The finding also differs radically from 90 years of studies showing that only a minority of scientists (excluding physicians) believes in God or an afterlife.

“We did not think physicians were nearly this religious,” said study author Farr Curlin, Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University. “We suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine. The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions.”

Although physicians are nearly as religious as the general population, their specific beliefs often differ from those of their patients. While more than 80 percent of patients describe themselves as Protestant or Catholic, only 60 percent of physicians come from either group.

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

Although doctors are more likely than the general population to attend religious services, they are less willing to “apply their religious beliefs to other areas of life,” the researchers found. Sixty-one percent of doctors say they “try to make sense” of a difficult situation and “decide what to do without relying on God,” while only 29 percent of the general population say the same.

“We have paid a good deal of attention to the religious beliefs of patients and how their faith influences medical decisions,” Curlin said, “but until now, no one has looked in the same way at physicians, the other half of every doctor-patient relationship. These findings lead us to further wonder how doctors’ faiths shape their clinical encounters.”

Inquiries into the religious beliefs, or the lack of them, among U.S. scientists date back to a landmark 1916 survey by psychologist James Leuba that documented widespread disbelief. Leuba found that only 40 percent of scientists believed in a personal God, 15 percent were uncertain and 45 percent disbelieved.

Surveys published in Nature in 1997 and 1998 showed little change since 1916, with only 39 percent of all scientists declaring a personal belief in God. Belief among “leading” scientists, however—defined in this case as members of the National Academy of Sciences—was far lower: only 7 percent in 1998. Curiously, among scientists, mathematicians were the most likely to believe in God and biologists the least likely.

Although physicians have extensive training in biology, the study by Curlin and colleagues paints a very different picture, showing high levels of belief.

The survey revealed considerable variation between different medical specialties. Doctors in family practice and pediatrics were far more likely to carry their religious belief into “all my other dealings” and to look to God for “support and guidance.” Psychiatrists and radiologists were the least likely.

Christian, Mormon and Buddhist doctors were the most likely to report, “My religious beliefs influence my practice of medicine.” Jewish and Hindu physicians were the least likely. Physicians from the South and Midwest were slightly more religious than those from the East and West.

The survey used a 12-page questionnaire mailed to a random sample of 2,000 U.S. practicing physicians; 63 percent responded to one of three mailings. The researchers did not find evidence that religious physicians were more likely to respond than those who are not religious. Results from this survey were compared with the 1998 General Social Survey, which examines demographic and opinion variables in a sampling of U.S. households.

The next step, said Curlin, who describes himself as an “orthodox Christian in the Protestant tradition,” is to begin to look at how doctors’ religious (or secular) beliefs and values might influence the way they care for patients.

The Greenwall Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program funded the study. Additional authors include John Lantos, Professor in Pediatrics and Medicine; Chad Roach, S.B.; Sarah Sellergren, A.M.; and Marshall Chin, Associate Professor in Medicine.

Thread can now be closed

 

[chad5871]

I was accepted at several Jesuit schools, do you think attending one of them would negatively affect my medical career? I guess I am a little worried about having my degree associated with a religious institution.

If the schools are good schools with decent reputations, you should be fine. Theoretically, they can't discriminate based on religion -- it's illegal.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Yeah, we explained what "skeet skeet" and something else (I forgot) was to a fellow M1 a few weeks ago. I resisted the temptation to mention duck butter or femunda cheese.

You scare me some times.....you know that right?

 

[Badger4Life]

If the schools are good schools with decent reputations, you should be fine. Theoretically, they can't discriminate based on religion -- it's illegal.
Whose they? I'm talking about my professional reputation as a doctor.

 

[chad5871]

Whose they? I'm talking about my professional reputation as a doctor.

I was referring to admissions committees. I'm sorry, I misunderstood your concern. I took your comment to mean that you were worried about attending a Jesuit school because of the implications this might have during the application process.

As far as professional reputation -- I don't think it will make too much of a difference. There are plenty of highly successful doctors of every religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

 

[omegaxx]

Agnostic here. I don't think we can ever know, or that it can ever matter.