Religious People: How Much Control does "God" Have Over Your Application Cycle?

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jevo

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For those that are religious, as the title states, how big of a role do you think your god has in what happens to you in your application cycle?

After reading the school-specific thread about Howard University, I was absolutely amazed, to say the least, at how much they attribute their success/failure in their application cycle to 'god's plan'

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=823407&page=35

Do any/many religious folk feel the same way?
 

BHaus9

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Are you going to try and pass this off as an honest attempt at dialogue, or do you openly embrace the disrespectful, imflammatory nature of this thread? I'm not religious myself, but still... really?
 

jevo

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Are you going to try and pass this off as an honest attempt at dialogue, or do you openly embrace the disrespectful, imflammatory nature of this thread? I'm not religious myself, but still... really?

I don't see anything disrespectful about it. I just wanted to know to what extent people feel a higher power has over their success in their application cycle. I understand people have faith, but I want to know where the line is drawn (if any) between what is and isn't in their control, as far as success/failures.

The main reason I posted this is because none of the other school-specific threads contained as much religious talk as Howard's, and it got me thinking!
 
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xanthomondo

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op is maddd

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Shalashaska

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This thread could be another painfully argumentative discussion. But to answer your question, no matter what you believe in, there's definitely some sort of divinity involved in things like app cycles.
 

JESSFALLING

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OP: It's psychological, or spiritual, depending on one's beliefs. Placing one's application in 'God's' hands can provide measurable relief from the personal doubt, stress and frustration that the experience engenders - at least for those that believe in God, gods, or the Universe.......whatever. Life is complex and religious belief and ritual can be helpful for those that partake; it may even add to longevity*.

*(http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/spirituality-may-help-people-live-longer)
 

chronicidal

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OP: It's psychological, or spiritual, depending on one's beliefs. Placing one's application in 'God's' hands can provide measurable relief from the personal doubt, stress and frustration that the experience engenders - at least for those that believe in God, gods, or the Universe.......whatever. Life is complex and religious belief and ritual can be helpful for those that partake; it may even add to longevity*.

*(http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/spirituality-may-help-people-live-longer)

There are some similar but distinct terms for what you're describing that are broader than theistic belief:
fatalism
predeterminism (we have no free will)
compatibilist predestination (we have free will, but there is nonetheless a preordained end)
defeatism (accept defeat without struggle) or, more positively though a little different, amor fati (love of fate; from Nietzsche)

The point is, this discussion is not unique to the religious. Secular people can have these attitudes.
 
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KnuxNole

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Is it because they are from a Bible belt school or something? :confused:
 

hmainn

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I don't see anything disrespectful about it. I just wanted to know to what extent people feel a higher power has over their success in their application cycle. I understand people have faith, but I want to know where the line is drawn (if any) between what is and isn't in their control, as far as success/failures.

The main reason I posted this is because none of the other school-specific threads contained as much religious talk as Howard's, and it got me thinking!

Intentions might have been harmless, but this isn't the best place to feed your curiosity. Like with any general forum, you post about things like religion and politics and you'll get trolled or start a riot. :D

I'm a person of faith and it played a big part for me. It's just another thing to take into consideration.. IE if you're family oriented, you would take into consideration your family when you choose where you'll be for four years.

Welcome to SDN.. the place where dreams come.. :confused:
 

JESSFALLING

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There are some similar but distinct terms for what you're describing that are broader than theistic belief:
fatalism
predeterminism (we have no free will)
compatibilist predestination (we have free will, but there is nonetheless a preordained end)
defeatism (accept defeat without struggle) or, more positively though a little different, amor fati (love of fate; from Nietzsche)

The point is, this discussion is not unique to the religious. Secular people can have these attitudes.

Perhaps I need to study philosophy, but how does one rationalize predeterminism with secularism?.... Are you taking about belief in ordered physical mechanisms? Chaotic dynamics - i.e. butterfly effect?
 
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Sephiroth

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Perhaps I need to study philosophy, but how does one rationalize predeterminism with secularism?.... Are you taking about belief in ordered physical mechanisms?
hard determinism, which I myself subscirbe to
 

johnnydrama

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Their prayers will go unanswered.

Medical school applications are strictly Satan's domain.
 

mahfuza5

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I think faith kept me going during my application cycle...which was undoubtedly a long and difficult process...
 

GetThePointe77

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I personally believe my lord and savior tim tebow personally decided where I should get in...
JK but seriously its all a game of chance/luck/statistics so if people feel better attributing their success or lack thereof in a higher power/plan than there really isnt anything wrong with that...
 
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Are you going to try and pass this off as an honest attempt at dialogue, or do you openly embrace the disrespectful, imflammatory nature of this thread? I'm not religious myself, but still... really?

This was literally my exact thought when I read the OPs post. inb4lock.
 

wolfie77

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So far, all the posts in response to this have been about how much of s*it fest this would turn into.

I will actually give my own answer. My view on this matter:

I take the stance of Ignatius of Loyola. It goes something like this: Pray as if everything depended on God, but act as if everything depended on you.

As long as I work toward a more just world in all that I do, I feel that I am doing God's work. However, my stance doesn't translate into a self-centered belief that God concerns Himself with the minutia of my life, more with the bigger picture of a better world.
 

StudyShy

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Can't wait for this one...:boom: :boom: :boom:
 

DrMaximus

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Their prayers will go unanswered.

Medical school applications are strictly Satan's domain.

:thumbup::thumbup: So very true.

I take the stance of Ignatius of Loyola. It goes something like this: Pray as if everything depended on God, but act as if everything depended on you.

As long as I work toward a more just world in all that I do, I feel that I am doing God's work. However, my stance doesn't translate into a self-centered belief that God concerns Himself with the minutia of my life, more with the bigger picture of a better world.

I like this perspective. However, I do think that this thread will eventually light on fire like everyone says. Threads on religion can only survive so long in a scientific community...
 

johnnydrama

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I got in with the following personal statement:

"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste. Been around for a long long year, stole many a man's soul and faith..."
 

Whiskeypunch

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I threw up in my mouth a bit reading that thread. Hopefully God likes evidence based medicine.
 

wolfie77

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:thumbup::thumbup: So very true.



I like this perspective. However, I do think that this thread will eventually light on fire like everyone says. Threads on religion can only survive so long in a scientific community...


How scientifically-based is it really if there are DO students participating?


jk jk
 

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This is just a preemptive reminder to steer clear of personal attacks and stay on topic for the thread.
 
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johnnydrama

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I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man's been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him. In spite of all his imperfections, I'm a fan of man! I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist.
 

johnnydrama

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Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ****in' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!
 

tantacles

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I just want to put on the record that Jesus had nothing to do with my medical school applications. He just made me want to go to a medical school with a minimal number of practicing Catholics. 1 practicing catholic for every hundred med students is ideal, I think.
 

Zoopeda

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1) I'd just like to remind everyone that new things are discovered everyday. Therefore, the prospect of a God possibility is, well, possible. Perhaps unlikely, nevertheless, denying God's existence is as logically flawed as believing without question.

2) You don't need to believe in God for OP's post to be valid. If you are simply of the mindset that Everything Happens for a Reason, then acceptance and rejection may carry more meaning for you.

3) I don't believe in God. (Although it's sort of a bummer to me that I feel I need to be so preemptively defensive on this site.)
 

johnnydrama

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1) I'd just like to remind everyone that new things are discovered everyday. Therefore, the prospect of a God possibility is, well, possible. Perhaps unlikely, nevertheless, denying God's existence is as logically flawed as believing without question.

No, it is not. This is a commonly used argument, but it's not a valid one.

The existence of God is just as likely as the existence of a Perfect Deceiver, one that says the same things but rewards the exact opposite behavior. So the two negate each other.

For any possible deity, you can just as easily construct their anti-deity, making the acceptance of any particular god without factual proof no better than accepting nothing at all.

If your point is you can't fully disprove the existence of God, so what? There are an infinite number of scenarios that are not falsifiable, that doesn't mean we should give serious weight to any of them.
 

Zoopeda

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I think for most free thinkers, they would probably point out that it's also impossible to disprove that Hogwarts exists. But it's so incredibly unlikely thus you should not believe in it, and you should ridicule people who do. There is an equal amount of evidence supporting the existence of Hogwarts and ANY of the thousands of gods humans have worshipped during our time as a species.

Edit: To clarify, that amount of evidence is zero. No evidence has been found, anywhere, ever, supporting the existence of a god or gods. For those of us who want to practice (EVIDENCE-based) medicine, that should be very striking.

The weird thing about God is that He/She/It isn't really *well* defined. Hogwarts, on the other hand, is, of course, well defined over 7 lengthy novels--leaving more evidence to support the (likely) theory that Hogwarts does not exist. When someone, thousands of years ago, describes God in vague terms that are translated and re-translated into modern language and context, we really don't have any kind of scientific basis for discussion beyond vagaries such as "Every thing happens for a reason." Arguing God does not exist is a lot like arguing that some weird space animal doesn't exist when we simply just don't know. A thousand years ago, no one would have believed a human could fly in the sky or walk on the moon. We're supremely ignorant to completely close the door on a perspective (vs simply holding it as a possibility) that very well may prove valid in 30,000 years. It's also not exactly easy to prove or disprove something that is, by its very nature, undefinable.
 

Zoopeda

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The existence of God is just as likely as the existence of a Perfect Deceiver, one that says the same things but rewards the exact opposite behavior. So the two negate each other.

Now THAT is some whacky s**t!
 

johnnydrama

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The weird thing about God is that He/She/It isn't really *well* defined. Hogwarts, on the other hand, is, of course, well defined over 7 lengthy novels--leaving more evidence to support the (likely) theory that Hogwarts does not exist. When someone, thousands of years ago, describes God in vague terms that are translated and re-translated into modern language and context, we really don't have any kind of scientific basis for discussion beyond vagaries such as "Every thing happens for a reason." Arguing God does not exist is a lot like arguing that some weird space animal doesn't exist when we simply just don't know. A thousand years ago, no one would have believed a human could fly in the sky or walk on the moon. We're supremely ignorant to completely close the door on a perspective (vs simply holding it as a possibility) that very well may prove valid in 30,000 years. It's also not exactly easy to prove or disprove something that is, by its very nature, undefinable.

A theory that is not falsifiable is worthless.

You cannot make any testable predictions based upon a a fuzzy theory of the existence of a hands off deity. It's stupid.
 

wolfie77

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Lots of people applying to an HBCU think god controls their app cycle? Color me surprised :rolleyes:

[YOUTUBE]Vf62wptEP8M[/YOUTUBE]


White America (educated or not) trying to make black people look like baffoons any chance it gets? "Color" me surprised.

But seriously, what was your point with this comment? Be more direct.
 

Zoopeda

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A theory that is not falsifiable is worthless.

You cannot make any testable predictions based upon a a fuzzy theory of the existence of a hands off deity. It's stupid.

Completely true. Which is why it's as hard to disprove as it is to prove, CURRENTLY. Who's to say 50,000 years from now, we won't find a tombstone in some galaxy three universes away that says "God, 5000BC - 2012AD... Took his own life when the US government, for what seemed like the infinite time, spent the country's remaining primary school education and medical residency position funding on a giant bee's nest of a pointless war."
 

johnnydrama

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Completely true. Which is why it's as hard to disprove as it is to prove, CURRENTLY. Who's to say 50,000 years from now, we won't find a tombstone in some galaxy three universes away that says "God, 5000BC - 2012AD... Took his own life when the US government, for what seemed like the infinite time, spent the country's remaining primary school education and medical residency position funding on a giant bee's nest of a pointless war."

Heh, and you called my comments about the plausibility of a Perfect Deceiver ridiculous?

That wouldn't prove anything.

And the point is that there is no reason to worry about the existence of a deity. If one exists, it doesn't have any impact on our lives, so it might as well not.
 

wolfie77

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I think he was implying that African-Americans are typically viewed (well, stereotyped) as being more religious compared to European-Americans like myself.

And I agree with you; his comment was extremely offensive. It's a well-known fact that African-American culture focuses largely on things like education and wealth-building. This is evidenced by the fact that African-Americans comprise well over half of all my science courses, especially the 400+-level course like physical chemistry and microbiology. They grow up in a culture that really encourages hard work, patience, delayed gratification, and higher education, and that's the reason they've been so successful.


Cute. Real funny too.

Make sure to say that with a smirk on your face when you're to your black interviewers.
 

wolfie77

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I think he was implying that African-Americans are typically viewed (well, stereotyped) as being more religious compared to European-Americans like myself.

And I agree with you; his comment was extremely offensive. It's a well-known fact that African-American culture focuses largely on things like education and wealth-building. This is evidenced by the fact that African-Americans comprise well over half of all my science courses, especially the 400+-level course like physical chemistry and microbiology. They grow up in a culture that really encourages hard work, patience, delayed gratification, and higher education, and that's the reason they've been so successful.


Cute. Real funny too.

Make sure to say that with a smirk on your face to your black interviewers.
 

wolfie77

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Am I wrong? Can you honestly say the prevailing African-American culture is conducive to success in our post-industrial society?


Where do you get your schema about "the prevailing African-American culture?" From the dozens of black friends' homes that you're oh-so-tolerant parents let you visit when you were little? Or could it be from the spectacles that TV puts on for you and the rest of America (Maury, Flavor Flav, rap music). Something tells me it's the latter.
 
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