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deleted103644
Quit trolling. We're bashing religion here, not race-baiting.
Religious People: How Much Control does "God" Have Over Your Application Cycle?
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Quit trolling. We're bashing religion here, not race-baiting.
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Inb4
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Hell yeah girlfriend.
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I don't see why others on this forum are not respectful to other peoples views. I know that its an online forum, and I know that because there is more science inclined people which want to be doctors, there is a greater chance for people to completely throw the idea of God out. I firmly believe there is a God. How the hell can you explain ghosts, demons, possession. There has GOT to be another side to this world. I know many smart, respectable people who say they have seen or talked to these other beings. I mean, you say God isn't scientifically possible, but how can those other beings be also? They are not just some idea that you think about.
In all honesty, science is about proof. Yes, science will never prove God. There is no visual proof besides the Bible that there is a God. But there is also ABSOLUTELY NO proof there isn't. Where's the hard proof in science that there isn't? Besides all these theories, which is all they are, theories.
Just think about it. If there is no God, then what are you losing? Besides time and a couple dollars here and there which all end up helping people in foreign countries (which is how my church distributes tithe and offerings). On the other hand, if there really is a God, imagine what you are losing then? Why take a chance? I mean you have a win win situation if you only accept Him. The choice is ultimately yours.
To reiterate what I had said, please don't criticize others beliefs. You don't see us Christians doing the same to you.
To answer OP's question, by reading my post, you can probably already infer that I believe that God has a huge part in deciding if I get in, and in which school I get in. I think its a lot more than that though, because your app is also dependent on your GPA and mcat score which, as I will say again, are influenced by a higher being, being God.
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In all honesty, science is about proof. Yes, science will never prove God. There is no visual proof besides the Bible that there is a God. But there is also ABSOLUTELY NO proof there isn't. Where's the hard proof in science that there isn't? Besides all these theories, which is all they are, theories.
Just think about it. If there is no God, then what are you losing? Besides time and a couple dollars here and there which all end up helping people in foreign countries (which is how my church distributes tithe and offerings). On the other hand, if there really is a God, imagine what you are losing then? Why take a chance? I mean you have a win win situation if you only accept Him. The choice is ultimately yours.
To reiterate what I had said, please don't criticize others beliefs. You don't see us Christians doing the same to you.
To answer OP's question, by reading my post, you can probably already infer that I believe that God has a huge part in deciding if I get in, and in which school I get in. I think its a lot more than that though, because your app is also dependent on your GPA and mcat score which, as I will say again, are influenced by a higher being, being God.
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LOL!
I'm glad to see there are not that many personal insults here yet. Johnny keep up the constructive responses! I'm too tired to feed the westboro baptist church trolls on facebook, so I'll just save your logic and use it later, with your permission.
To answer OP's question; I would assume that a believing person would ultimately agree that a God has complete and total control over everything and everyone. So.... does that mean that they think that God plays a 100% role in the whole admissions process?
Then of course the question comes to mind whether they think they have personal power of choice, whether God is testing them, etc..
Nevertheless, once you corner that type of person, they always agree that God ultimately controls everything. Thoughts? Comments?
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deleted103644
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I call Poe's Law on this.
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LOL!
I'm glad to see there are not that many personal insults here yet. Johnny keep up the constructive responses! I'm too tired to feed the westboro baptist church trolls on facebook, so I'll just save your logic and use it later, with your permission.
To answer OP's question; I would assume that a believing person would ultimately agree that a God has complete and total control over everything and everyone. So.... does that mean that they think that God plays a 100% role in the whole admissions process?
Then of course the question comes to mind whether they think they have personal power of choice, whether God is testing them, etc..
Nevertheless, once you corner that type of person, they always agree that God ultimately controls everything. Thoughts? Comments?
Well at least in the Abrahamic religions, free will has always (save for the Calvinists) been the basis of the idea of sin. According to this way of thinking, we have the choice of rejecting/accepting God through sinning or not.
I would recommend the book the book Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller from Brown. He's a well respected cell biologist.
He does a good job of being scientifically rigorous but leaving the door open for a deity. One of his major arguments is based on how evolution would be a perfect mechanism to impart free will. It's very interesting stuff and different from the tired arguments of Dawkins/Harris vs. the creationists.
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Yea because a room full of these people who summon them all have skitzo. Dude as I said before, there are just too many stories from sane people who have seen them to automatically define it as skitzo. I would advise you to do a little research on your own, and then make that assumption once you have done so.
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I agree with you about remaining respectful, though I presume many here think that "ignorance" should not be respected - hence the obvious heat.
While I see what you are saying; you completely lost me there ^ Ghosts? Demons? Possessions? These things have been extensively studied, and to my knowledge they are all hoaxes/mind tricks/psychological problems/not real.
Possessions? Really? I don't mean to bash, but I think you've seen to many of those "Based on a true story" type of movies about exorcisms. As someone who studies the brain extensively and does research on it, I can tell you that your mind can play crazy tricks on you. What else can play crazier tricks? Your ignorance. The idea of possessions is silly when viewed in context of 2012, but it does make much sense to someone who lived 2000 years ago, who didn't know squat about the brain, or what a Tonic-Clonic seizure looked like.
My Russian family is hyper superstitious (frustratingly so) and growing up I've noticed a million logical connections between superstition and practicality. For example, I've heard this more than once: "Cover your mouth when you yawn, or else a demon is going to fly into you". How many times did a demon fly into you? Now lets explore the practical part of it - covering your mouth limits the amount of bad breathe you release/protects from stuff flying in/shows good manners/prevents people from seeing the disgusting things in your mouth (They didn't have dentists 2,000 years ago), etc...
I have a feeling that many of these superstitions were little lies told to little kids by adults, just so that they would hop off, and do something right. Kind of like the story of "where do babies come from?" Do they really get delivered via the Stork? Of course not! But its something we tell our kids just so that they stop asking the question, in an attempt to not discuss sex. If you look at most superstitions, I promise you, you will find a logical PRACTICAL reason for them.
Sorry for going off into a rant on superstitions, but I wanted to point out that many people sweep things like "witchcraft" "superstitions" "ghosts" into things such as religion and God. I personally see the former as less credible than the highly unlikely (though admittedly possible) latter. There is a distinction.
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Lol in my opinion, God has been focusing on me for a long time already. Thanks for the meme though. Ill get to your reply in a sec.
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Johnnydrama is the reason I love this thread.
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deleted103644
I think I'll leave this thread with a quote from Game of Thrones:
"There is only one god and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death, and that is, 'Not today.'"
"There is only one god and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death, and that is, 'Not today.'"
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Seriously, demonic possessions? Have you ever seen a grand mal seizure? Taking hollywood effects away, the two looks EXACTLY ALIKE. Its common sense. Since we all took Bio here, I think we understand how evolution generally works, and how the scientific thought works. We can see how one thing evolved into another.
Demonic Possession
-Body tenses up like crazy. The body makes a "bridge like" structure, as if 'something is trying to come out of the body itself'
-Body shakes
-Eyes/Mouth looks weird. Foaming.
-Shrieks and cries - horrible vocal sounds
-Hands/Arms/Limbs get twisted in horrible weird looking and dangerous positions
-Before the "crazy" moments, the person is confused, and is talking about something odd
-After the crazy moment, the person is really tired, doesn't remember anything, is generally weird and pensive/lethargic.
Grand mal seizure
-Person has an aura, ie: hallucination in the form of smell, sight, memory, 'deja-vu' feeling, etc... might act odd for 10 or so seconds. Might talk about something strange.
-Person spontaneously starts convulsing in the tonic phase. The sudden constriction of all thoracic and cervical muscles spontaneously squeezes the air out of the person's lungs, and the person makes a ear numbing screech.
-Tonic phase makes the person so tense, that they form an arch, with their body as if 'something is trying to come out of their heart'.
-Tonic phase, hands and limbs get twisted in very odd and freaky positions
-Clonic phase, the body shakes violently.
-The person foams in their mouth, their eyes roll back up, they look scary and not normal.
-After the seizure, the person enters the postictal phase, where they are typically amnesic of the seizure, the prior events to it, and the first 10-30 minutes AFTER the end of the seizure. They behave childlike, scared, confused, and lethargic.
So tell me, if someone got knocked in the head by a rock 1,500 years ago, and they suffered some sort of TBI, whether it be a subdural hematoma (minor one), secondary cerebral edema, or just a simple concussion, they are likely to go into a coma, or have seizures, or hallucinations, or some sort of psychological effects on their personality or memory. The people back then obviously don't know that. What do they know? Well they know about evil things. The person is clearly doing something not intentional, not good, and OBVIOUSLY something evil looking that is very scary. The person who is seizing is not responding to commands, is not aware, is not conscious, and remains 'not himself' for sometime after the event, as if 'the actions were not done by the individual, but by some other entity'. So obviously people are going to come up with all kinds of excuses and stories about demons and possessions and exorcisms. I am just surprised people don't realize this.
Anyway, those are my $.02
Does anyone else agree or have other opinions? I am open to new theories!
Demonic Possession
-Body tenses up like crazy. The body makes a "bridge like" structure, as if 'something is trying to come out of the body itself'
-Body shakes
-Eyes/Mouth looks weird. Foaming.
-Shrieks and cries - horrible vocal sounds
-Hands/Arms/Limbs get twisted in horrible weird looking and dangerous positions
-Before the "crazy" moments, the person is confused, and is talking about something odd
-After the crazy moment, the person is really tired, doesn't remember anything, is generally weird and pensive/lethargic.
Grand mal seizure
-Person has an aura, ie: hallucination in the form of smell, sight, memory, 'deja-vu' feeling, etc... might act odd for 10 or so seconds. Might talk about something strange.
-Person spontaneously starts convulsing in the tonic phase. The sudden constriction of all thoracic and cervical muscles spontaneously squeezes the air out of the person's lungs, and the person makes a ear numbing screech.
-Tonic phase makes the person so tense, that they form an arch, with their body as if 'something is trying to come out of their heart'.
-Tonic phase, hands and limbs get twisted in very odd and freaky positions
-Clonic phase, the body shakes violently.
-The person foams in their mouth, their eyes roll back up, they look scary and not normal.
-After the seizure, the person enters the postictal phase, where they are typically amnesic of the seizure, the prior events to it, and the first 10-30 minutes AFTER the end of the seizure. They behave childlike, scared, confused, and lethargic.
So tell me, if someone got knocked in the head by a rock 1,500 years ago, and they suffered some sort of TBI, whether it be a subdural hematoma (minor one), secondary cerebral edema, or just a simple concussion, they are likely to go into a coma, or have seizures, or hallucinations, or some sort of psychological effects on their personality or memory. The people back then obviously don't know that. What do they know? Well they know about evil things. The person is clearly doing something not intentional, not good, and OBVIOUSLY something evil looking that is very scary. The person who is seizing is not responding to commands, is not aware, is not conscious, and remains 'not himself' for sometime after the event, as if 'the actions were not done by the individual, but by some other entity'. So obviously people are going to come up with all kinds of excuses and stories about demons and possessions and exorcisms. I am just surprised people don't realize this.
Anyway, those are my $.02
Does anyone else agree or have other opinions? I am open to new theories!
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Thanks for stating your opinion in a mature manner.
Well basically to respond to your points, yes, some superstitions can be overly exaggerated. This though does not tie in with the fact about the things that others have seen. One point that I should make clear, is that I personally have never seen a ghost, or a demon, or whatever for that matter, but from what people have told me, and from the multitude of people who have told me (most not even belonging to a church or any specific religion) have seen such things, and have told me their story. I am not trying to earn credibility, I am just going by what I have inferred from what others have told me.
As for possession, I have never seen one either. I just stated this because if one believes that the Bible is correct, then this must certainly be possible, based upon what is in the scripture. You have to remember though, that what God did in the past, as is stated in the Bible is not done anymore. Examples are turning water into wine, or pouring water out from a rock. Again, if one believes in the Bible, then one must believe in its entirety. I am just connecting God with all of these because it just seems fair to believe, in my opinion, that there has to be another side to the story. As was said in a previous post about schizophrenia, their experience they had are just too specific to be dubbed as a schizophrenia.
All of this is based upon faith. There is no proof. To be quite honest, there can be a counter for any argument. I mean, you can just say that "God said so, so it must be correct", while in every day life, it seems to be the other way around.
Look, there are just too many possibilities to consider. Yes, I guess I did open a can of worms, but ehh what can you do. If God is ever proven wrong with hard proof, not just ideas, then I would just quit it and accept I was wrong. Until then though, I will have to remain by my "ignorance" or so you say. Again, what am I really losing?
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I wish people would understand that proving a negative (X does not exist) is not a valid logical process and that the burden of proof is on the affirmative. Asking for proof of god's non-existence (a god who by definition is unobservable) is wasted breath/keystrokes.
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deleted103644
Sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
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First off, with the kinds of opinions you hold about black people, you shouldn't even use Africans to bolster your arguments. It's exploitative.
Second and more substantively, I don't think that people dying preventable deaths of hunger/disease is an argument against God. Those people don't die because any god kills them. They die because people kill them. People kill them by not doing enough to save them. Blaming their deaths on gods would just be a way of rationalizing the evil/indifference of humanity.
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Deductive reasoning when you have no reasons left is also not a valid logical process.
No proof he exists
No proof that he doesnt
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I see what you are saying dude, and as long as you keep those beliefs personal and extremely isolated from your future professional career, then I am cool with that, and I would hope that others would be too.
I just merely proposed in my second post (comparing seizures to possessions) in an attempt to make you or others try to connect some dots. Try to see the other "what if" scenerio of whether one idea evolved over the years into another one. I find this to be a much more....solid... route of thought, and I think of it more of a puzzle. I often find myself wondering about something absurd, and trying to figure out how that saying, superstition, or story came about. What is its purpose, now and then? What is the scientific analogue to the story? Are the two tied together? Could one have evolved from the other given variable A, B, and C?
I think it is important to approach and UTILIZE this way of thinking for everyone. Especially a practicing physician. After all, as physicians, we will deal with much ignorance on the patient's part. What one might describe as their "knee popping out" (my friend told me that she swore her knee popped out competely, and then went back in), must mean something completely else. We must learn to convert primitive and basic ideas/exaggerations into something tangible and feasible.
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But why do we have to call their beliefs into question in the first place? How is it hurting you? Can you really say that if they stopped believing your life would be better?
I may not believe in God, but atleast I have some manners.
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Woah man, you've got my ideas all wrong. I am not saying that I've been born into the right religion, and I am not calling my religion 100% correct, and no one else is going to heaven. I think that people from all religions will go to heaven, so long as they love God. I am going to use the argument that there is a God for this discussion. Being that there is one, how would it make sense to have people choosing the right religion 2000 years later? That's a long time, and there is a possibility that some information might have gotten mixed up in the process. I just go by what the Bible says. I do not believe in the Pope, and do not accept him as a representation of God on this earth or whatever.
And just because 200000 kids die every day or w/e does not mean that a God doesn't exist and someone didnt pray hard enough. There is good and evil in this world. Look at my previous posts to explain why I believe so.
There is a plan for everyone and that is just my opinion on the subject of God. I'm sorry you have to resort to ridiculing someone about their beliefs, no matter how outrageous they might sound to you.
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deleted103644
Religions are like penises. Many people have them, some are even proud of them, but that doesn't mean you should go waving yours out in public.
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Yes, the three best things in life.......
You can leave sex out of the list, unless you mean sex with multiple people.
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Well does my "penis" offend you?
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Yes sir, I do not plan to push my religion onto anyone. I personally stay away from those people when they try to do that to me. I mean it does get annoying. And by me getting a college degree in biochemistry, I have accepted to look outside of the box to see it from another perspective.
Looking at everything from a science standpoint is good, because yes a lot of things can be explained. As I said, I have not experienced a possession. I mean look at it from this perspective as well. You cannot look with magic glasses or anything to see what is causing that seizure. You say it might be from a hit on the head if I am not mistaken? Alright, that is a feasible argument. I can also have the argument that something else might be causing the convulsions. I am not trying to sound like a smart ass, because I am sure that you have more experience with the brain than I do. This is going by my statement about my beliefs, and how I use them to explain things.
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What?
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Alright well I'm out. If anyone wants to continue this conversation, send me a pm. If not, just take what I said as another idea and do what you want with it. Not trying to shove it down anyone's throat, and I will not push the subject matter any further. Thanks for all those who responded respectfully. -ehem- Alpha Q Raw
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Exactly what I said....
Do you have any other reasons to throw out there besides those two?
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deleted103644
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This is all done by extremists. Not everyone is this forcible. Personally, I think stem cell research is an amazing step towards healing.
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Well as long as people out there without penises don't tell me i should get rid of my penis or judge me cause I have one then we'll be okay.
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Even if I did have sex with more than one person, I would pick and choose wisely. You never know what you could catch these days.
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No, I mean I didn't understand what you were saying there, and I still don't understand. Can you please explain what you meant by that?
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I agree with what you're saying here but it goes both ways.
Without religion:
- MLK all the religious leaders of the civil rights movement would have had no ultimate reason to fight for justice (although idk if this is a plus for Alpha Q....)
- The Dalai Lama would not be fighting to get his people's land back from China.
- JPII would not have helped break down the Berlin Wall.
- The Jesuit martyrs would not have brought attention to the civil war in El Salvador.
- Gandhi might not have had the motivation and stamina to go through with his peaceful resistance.
And don't forget that science brought us:
- Hiroshima and Nagasaki
- genetics based discrimination (it's coming)
- machine guns
- nerve gases
- agent orange
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You must be a black woman. This is the only group of people where such bafoonary can exist.
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unless the OP, you know, asks you to talk about it
anyway I'm a theist, and I don't really think God would care. I doubt the societal emphasis of medicine (prestige, money, power) is very much in alignment with what I believe God expects of us.
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Well I'm no philosopher or anything, but I was just saying that since there are no more reasons in the original posters argument who posted the argument about the reasoning that there is no proof about there not being a God, what other reasons can you say?
1. There is proof that there is a God
2. There is proof that there isnt a God
He was just talking about number 2, and how it is not valid to state it. I was just simply stating that because 1 and 2 are false, what other reasoning is valid then?
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Gee..I wonder how you look
Just kidding!
I agree with your list 100%. Kind of envious of how you have all of this ready at the top of your head. Maybe I should dust off my history books.
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The Japan, Hitler, slavery, and genital mutilation examples don't ring true on their surfaces but whatever. Not the point.
I could sit here and rattle off names and religious motivations (starting with many of the social workers in the country and continuing on to those like Dr. Paul Farmer, whose work is informed by liberation theology), but that's not the point. The point is that religion is not just bad, it also inspires people to do a lot of good things. And not just in the "I gotta do this or I'll go to hell" kind of way. It inspires people to be introspective and to see the material possessions of this life as trivial when viewed in light of the dignity of human life and the length of eternity.
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I don't believe that they are. However, if they are then they are not the only ones that believe that such things do occur in the supernatural. As to the OP's question, yes I believe that God does influence my applications this year and yes I believe that He has a plan for my life which has led me to this point. I also dare to believe that there is a second coming of Christ, there is a heaven and a hell and yes even evolution is accepted on faith. There is scientific theory used to explain portions of evolution, but as a scientist and a medical professional I can explain that God still influences natural selection, adaptation, etc. Personally, I also believe that God takes over in my patients when I am at whit's end and cannot think of where to go next and/or will give guidance for what I need to do next. This is my stance on this subject, and as I respect your views I equally request that you respect mine as well. Good luck to all applying this year.
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Ok, gotcha, I'll explain it then. What he was talking about wasn't advanced philosophy. It's a simple concept that any positive claim holds the burden of proof. That is to say, if someone claims something in the affirmative, they must provide sufficient evidence and/or reasoning to believe this claim, or else it is unreasonable to believe that claim. A classic example is Russel's Teapot: I say there is a tiny teapot floating around within the asteroid belt. Of course non of of current technology would be able to track it down and see it, but you can't prove it doesn't exist!
The point here is that if we don't adhere to this principle, we would be compelled to believe (or at the very least consider is a real possibility that we should put any merit in) any claim that can't be absolutely disproved - including claims that are non-falsifiable - no matter how absurd.
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Transgressions of the human race extend far beyond religious explanation. Our species' actions are all to often motivated by greed, hate, vengeance, lust, fear, apathy, cruelty, and the like. These traits lead to larger themes such as conquest, terrorism, and war mongering on the macro scale, and domestic violence, bullying, crime and other abuses on the micro scale. If you find religion distasteful at times, it is likely because it is a human enterprise.
However, religion has also fostered many positive human traits by serving as a unifying framework whereby such positive ideals can coalesce. Further, religion has helped many find a meaningful existence here, on our rare planet. Why would we seek to deprive people of that satisfaction?
Edit: And, assuming evolution is correct, why did it select for spiritual traits?
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Is modern body art/mod a religious, or cultural phenom? At it's roots, was it religious or cultural? One could argue that tribal members found identity and meaning in the rituals, beyond the spiritual. Similarly, I could easily see a sociologist explain how circumcision provided a means for preserving cultural identity for the jewish peoples.....especially considering their plight in history.
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Even Einstein believed the universe pointed to some type of higher order/consciousness etc or "God". Not a meddling God, but a higher order. Saying someone can't practice evidence based medicine and believe there is a God isn't a logical statement. My brother is a physicist and there are hundreds of theories based on models that seem to explain why something works how it does even though it can't be directly proven or studied directly-only its effects. He also has no problem staying completely open minded to science while still theorizing that God exists.
Even Hawkings will say postulating what existed before the big bang can't be proven and is only conjecture, he nullifies this point by saying the universe, "Just Is, There is no before or after."
So the consensus is, there was antimatter and matter, and due to a unique event we can't replicate or agree on scientifically, the equilibrium was shifted towards matter and away from antimatter; thus, creating the first few particles of matter that then created the universe. There is no one proven or accepted theory on what caused this. Baryogenesis is one of the most common, but there are still hundreds of others and the main answer is that we haven't observed anything like this happen again since.Given all of these unknowns and logic based arguments with no physical evidence or reproducible evidence, is it really crazy to believe that there is a realm of existence greater than our own? Does it defy all evidence to say some force, potential generated by a 'being' beyond our current understanding of the universe shifted that equilibrium.
How is that less scientific than theorizing a virtual particle that fluxes between existence and non-existence so fast that we can't really measure it exists?
I don't think this is crazy or anti-scientific. I do believe that most of society has tried to "humanize" and "internalize" the idea of God because it is something they can understand or relate to; however, believing in a plane of existence that is beyond the observable physical world and can effect change upon ours does not violate any of the current cosmological models of the universe.
TL;DR
I don't think God is necessarily knocking on adcoms doors "getting people in" to med school , but I don't think it's anti-scientific to believe in a God that can affect change in our universe.
Even Hawkings will say postulating what existed before the big bang can't be proven and is only conjecture, he nullifies this point by saying the universe, "Just Is, There is no before or after."
So the consensus is, there was antimatter and matter, and due to a unique event we can't replicate or agree on scientifically, the equilibrium was shifted towards matter and away from antimatter; thus, creating the first few particles of matter that then created the universe. There is no one proven or accepted theory on what caused this. Baryogenesis is one of the most common, but there are still hundreds of others and the main answer is that we haven't observed anything like this happen again since.Given all of these unknowns and logic based arguments with no physical evidence or reproducible evidence, is it really crazy to believe that there is a realm of existence greater than our own? Does it defy all evidence to say some force, potential generated by a 'being' beyond our current understanding of the universe shifted that equilibrium.
How is that less scientific than theorizing a virtual particle that fluxes between existence and non-existence so fast that we can't really measure it exists?
I don't think this is crazy or anti-scientific. I do believe that most of society has tried to "humanize" and "internalize" the idea of God because it is something they can understand or relate to; however, believing in a plane of existence that is beyond the observable physical world and can effect change upon ours does not violate any of the current cosmological models of the universe.
TL;DR
I don't think God is necessarily knocking on adcoms doors "getting people in" to med school , but I don't think it's anti-scientific to believe in a God that can affect change in our universe.
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