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[YesMan123G]

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[spacecowgirl]

Define rural

 

[Junfan50]

Personally I would take the rural job and stick it out for 2-3 years. It will be painful for a short period of time, but it would give you the experience to move on to a better location down the road. I’d live in any rural area before I would work in a retail environment.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Hospital admin job 100%, especially if that's where goals/passion align.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

What about the family? They are used to metropolitan living. I don’t want them to despise the change and new life.

Time to teach them a different way of life for a little while. A simpler, more rural way of life.... spend more time enjoying nature and doing things together as a family outside. It's not forever.

 

[Junfan50]

What about the family? They are used to metropolitan living. I don’t want them to despise the change and new life.

It comes down to where do you see yourself in 5-10 years? I moved my family 2 times in the past 2.5 years and I have zero regrets because it got me to where I am now. It definitely makes it easier if the rest of the family is on board. If wife isn’t supportive of the move, then it will be difficult.

Rural life isn’t too bad. You can learn and pick up new hobbies, and enjoy a quieter life. You just need to realize that you will not be living there forever. It’s only temporary.

 

[Junfan50]

Do you think a clinic retail pharmacy would be any different?

I know it wouldn’t be different. In my current role, I cover small clinics from time to time. In our facilities, there is no payment transaction, which I guess is one less thing to worry about. But everything else is pretty much the same as retail. Now it’s very different from working in a large outpatient setting bc you see the same patients and you get to know them. However, the job is essentially the same. Outpatient work is outpatient regardless of whether it’s a retail store or a clinic.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I want to be in hospital in 5-10 years and hopefully further up in administration. But I have to tell you I am really not looking forward to the area. I hear the people can be unwelcoming to people not from the area. My wife who is biracial is scared of living in an area not diverse. I want them to be happy. I work to give them a better life. How long did you stay in each role for the 2.5 years of moving? Thank you for your advice. I’m really torn. My wife does not understand pharmacy and she doesn’t understand the difference between the practice settings.

I see your hesitation about rural living. What state are you talking about, if you don't mind me asking?

What credentials do you have other than PharmD to get into hospital management? How many years of leadership experience?

 

[Junfan50]

I want to be in hospital in 5-10 years and hopefully further up in administration. But I have to tell you I am really not looking forward to the area. I hear the people can be unwelcoming to people not from the area. My wife who is biracial is scared of living in an area not diverse. I want them to be happy. I work to give them a better life. How long did you stay in each role for the 2.5 years of moving? Thank you for your advice. I’m really torn. My wife does not understand pharmacy and she doesn’t understand the difference between the practice settings.

The first job out of school was in a small city (~30k population) and 3 hours away from friends and family, but it was inpatient so I took it. That location was horrible. My wife didn’t speak any English at the time, and it was hard for her to make any friends. I was there for 3.5 years when a gov position opened up in another state. The location wasn’t that great either (~ 1hr from a decent sized city), but it was a gov job so I accepted the position. I was there for roughly a year and was then offered a position in Europe. Ended up moving 6 months later. Still in Europe. We had our second child 2 months before moving to Europe.

To get to where you want be, you have to make some sacrifices. Every job you take will eventually lead you to another one and open up more opportunities. 2-3 years isn’t bad if it eventually gets you closer to end goal.

 

[johnpharm01]

This terrifies me. I did retail early on in my career and it was not easy by any means and I also did not increase my learning. I love hospital. But I love my location. It seems like the easy option is to stay locally...plus the pay. The hospital admin role is offering $150K, the retail clinic start up is offering $175k. I want to do what’s best for my family while still trying to do a job that I enjoy.

175 k for retail rx manager to good to be true. Start up could be shut down too if it doesn't make money. Rural living is better than a city, less crowded better traffic friendlier people. Take the rural position then stay in the city on weekends. Easy choice.

 

[Junfan50]

I agree with sacrifices...the only thing is my wife and kids have to make sacrifices as well. I want them to be happy too and I wish I could find a way to make all of us happy. And I ageee every role you take should lead you somewhere. Did you ever hesitate at all in your moves? Would you still make the same moves if your kids were in school?

Congrats on your role. It’s sounds very niche! It’s big accomplishment for sure. I hope your enjoying Europe.

How old are the kids? Have you spent some time in the rural area where the hospital job is being offered? Maybe get an idea about housing?

As someone else already mentioned, I’d consider the job stability as well. What’s the long term stability of each one? What are the hours like? Maybe the rural job offers you enough time off so that you can go to the city? I think the difference between 150k and 175k is negligible at that salary point.

The only time I hesitated was when I was offered the position in Europe. I wanted that job, but at the same time we were about to have another child. We already had a 3 year old, had him in daycare and had a pretty good daily routine. Moving across the ocean is not like moving from one state to another. I wasn’t sure if we would be able to handle a move like that with 2 little ones. I thought about it for 1 night and made up my mind to just go for it. I would have kicked myself down the road had I not taken it. I’m definitely glad that I did take it. We will have to move back stateside in a few years, but I will try to come back to Europe for sure. By then all of my kids will be in school, so to answer your question, yes I would still move if my kids were in school.

And yes, we are loving Europe. COVID has restricted a lot of our travels, but we prefer living over here to the states.

 

[confettiflyer]

100% admin job, no doubt.

Buy a Tesla or other electric car, find some podcasts.

 

[M0df]

What does your wife want to do?

I guess I'm in the minority here. You already have experience in management with your MBA. This would not be your first gig where you sacrifice and move on to bigger and better things. Do you really need this additional experience to qualify for something else? I just don't see it as a career altering move. That retail startup job sounds like a nice alternative while you keep looking for your dream job in your dream location. You are trying to convince yourself. You will have to convince your wife, which is even harder. If you really want the job, then take on most of the sacrificing by spending 3 hours on the road every day.

 

[Hels2007]

There is always an option of leaving your family where they are, if they love the area, and renting a small apartment or room near your rural job, spend weekends with family and weekdays at work. I know plenty of people who do that, and they do 4-5 hour drives, not 2 hour. I also know plenty of people who do 1-1,5 hour drives each way - so there is an option of moving to a house a bit closer to the rural location and but still comfortably close to the city. It doesn't have to be either/or.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Is this hospital part of a larger health system? Don't dicount opportunities to transfer internally as they happen.

 

[johnpharm01]

I’m not a fan of rural living. My wife and kids are minorities. My wife is kind of nervous....but I don’t like retail. I’m a hospital person. But I wonder if they are paying me enough, to do a job I don’t like so that I can make my family happy in the end?

I wish I just had my old job back.

I guess my point is how much of the offerings of a big city do you use during the workweek?

Anymore the world has shrunk any way with auto, plane travel, the internet.

I like rural. Where I sit this very moment I can go outside and be enveloped by the night sky. I am not afraid of my neighbors they are my friends. People talk to each other. The noise outside is not cars honking it's wildlife

 

[johnpharm01]

Very good points and I have to admit it sounds very enjoyable. I like living outside of the city in the surburbs but having close and convenient access to the city amenities.

The kids and I frequently go for dinner after work. My wife and I go for happy hour sometimes and when I’m on PTO and the weekends we enjoy so many amenities....but yes it costs so much more money and is not as healthy.

My wife’s primary concern is that she is biracial...she has concerns for diversity and inclusivity. She’s nervous she won’t be welcomed. She is also nervous that the kids and her will struggle with hair salons etc.

How many minorities roughly live in your rural area?

There is a large population of a particular minority which is unusual for the section of the state. But by in large it's white folks. I think it would depend on the state as to whether the rural area. Maybe the rural ne ie new Hampshire would be better than the se, Indiana, Idaho.

I feel sorry for your wife. Who wants to be judged based on their appearance especially race and ethnicity. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people out there.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

Most start ups go to zero. I hope that's not the case here, but it is a worthwhile consideration.

I do feel for your wife. Having lived in rural Virginia, I am empathetic. I moved there for work and got the heck out of dodge ASAP. That said, that job move was formative. I don't regret my time there despite me not liking the area. Good luck to your family. You seem like a really decent person, and I wish you well.

 

[confettiflyer]

That’s a really good idea actually....but reality...the cost is massive

A Tesla model 3? That’s cheaper than my current reasonably priced sedan (just a smidge), lol.

 

[confettiflyer]

.

My wife’s primary concern is that she is biracial...she has concerns for diversity and inclusivity. She’s nervous she won’t be welcomed. She is also nervous that the kids and her will struggle with hair salons etc.

This is a legitimate concern and a good reason to avoid certain areas of the country.

 

[Junfan50]

Your post has some really great points. My kids are 5,7,9 and 11. I’ve taken some time visited the area...the houses are more expensive than the house I currently have...which I found very surprising, they said that land is pretty expensive over at the rural area because all the docs drive the prices up.

My gut tells me that the hospital job provides more stability. They have the cash flow and are a large institution, I also think the schedule would mostly be days.

With the start-up the schedule would be rotating...they say they want to grow and open more clinic pharmacies but I’m not sure if they have the cash flow....I don’t think the job is secure maybe that’s why they are offering a larger salary. Either way the money doesn’t make a difference. I would rather practice somewhere I enjoy and can continue learning

Wow, I love how decisive you are...I’m so scared of messing up the family...I wish I could just make a call on something so deep like this and go....I just really don’t want to see my family suffer all because of my career....my wife is really hesitant and I’m not sure if the Environent will be great for our biracial children

I think you should go with your gut. Decision making for me is all about mindset. Start thinking “how can we make this work”? Maybe you don’t have to live next to the hospital. Is there an option to where you live ~45 min away from the hospital, but wife and kids get to stay closer to the city? There is also the possibility of having a long commute from your current home.

You just need to get your foot in the door. This doesn’t have to be a long term thing. If you take the rural job, and 1 year later decide you don’t like it and don’t want to live there anymore, what are the chances you can find any outpatient job in a city?

Also there’s no need to buy a house if you don’t plan on staying there long term. I haven’t bought a house yet because I knew each time it wouldn’t be long term.

 

[Sparda29]

HOSPITAL

 

[Chrish]

I prefer living close to city..

 

[CarpetTable45]

This is a no brainer for me, keep the family in the urban area, and commute to work 2 hours to the rural area until you can find something better.

Kids’ future is worth sacrificing everything over, but you’re a single income household so you need stability which a startup won’t provide.
If you have a steady schedule you can probably make a deal with a nice hotel or even rent a cheap apartment in the rural area and just live there for a few days at a time and put an iPad on the table at dinner and FaceTime in.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I am leaning to retail clinic....unfortunately....because the kids and my wife can continue to live in the city, go to the same schools, not sell the house and be closer to extended family to give a wife a break or assistance..though the hospital would still not be too far from extended family either...I feel like the retail option is least inconveniencing to the family’s life and I can still be around after work to spend time and have dinner and attend soccer and football games

Got to do what's best for your family.

In the short term, it might be retail.

In the long term, it likely is hospital management. Tough choices.

 

[rxkrafted]

Exactly...but I keep asking myself should I be making short term moves or long term moves...which one is better to make in this economic climate?....my passion is hospital management, that’s consistent...however rural living does not sit well with my wife and has legitimate fears and concerns...though I did ask her can allievate some of the concerns, and if so how....she really wants family stability

I know someone already mentioned job stability but that is an important factor here. Does your wife work? How much do you know about this retail start-up business success? In this pharmacy job market, you have to be prepared for the worse... do you have a backup plan if the retail start-up doesn't do well and you end up losing this job. There is more job security with the administrative role in health system. Just something to keep in mind because if your income is at risk, your family stability will potentially be at risk. No food on the table.

 

[deleted562805]

Exactly...but I keep asking myself should I be making short term moves or long term moves...which one is better to make in this economic climate?....my passion is hospital management, that’s consistent...however rural living does not sit well with my wife and has legitimate fears and concerns...though I did ask her can allievate some of the concerns, and if so how....she really wants family stability

Take the retail start up job and apply to hospital admin jobs close to where you live, including the hospital job you work for. There has to be more than one hospital close to where you live.That would be my suggestion

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I'm drawing from experience growing up in West Virginia with a black stepfather.

It all depends on what minority you are, exactly where you are, and exactly where you go. If it's an actual college town, you're probably fine. If it's a diverse town with a lot of educated people, you're probably fine. The more exposed people are to others of different backgrounds, the less afraid they are.

Now if it's a true 98% white, 20% college educated, and 80% Republican type of town, it depends. If you are Asian or Indian, they will just assume she's a doctors wife or works at the Chinese restaurant in town. You might get some racist jokes, but I doubt she will be in serious danger. With Trump going on about the "China Virus" this may change things a bit from when I was a kid if she's Asian. Hispanics can go either way. Some people might take exception. If she's black or from somewhere in the Arab world, I would be concerned and get the lay of the land before continuing.

Here's what you do. Take a sojourn to the town and mingle a bit and see what happens. Stay there for a weekend. Go to a diner in town that serves "regular" folks. Go shopping and see if you get side eye and dirty looks. Don't go to Kohl's or some middle class place. Go to Walmart. And just get a feel. If she isn't comfortable, then you have your answer. But I'd try it and see what happens. The opportunity for your career seems too good to pass up without really exploring how compatible you are with the town.

I think when you get there and don't act defensive or standoffish, you'll be surprised how friendly most rural people are. But you have to be ready to accept the possibility that the town is hostile. The town I grew up in was really diverse (Parkersburg, WV). Kids in high school had interracial relationships and nobody cared. Then I hear stories about kids in the coalfields in Southern WV that were disowned because they dated a black kid. You really have to just experience the town to know.

 

[deleted562805]

Wow. Thank you so much for incredible advice here. I actually went to the town, but went to one of their nicer resteraunt and not everyday places.

There is a small college town area that I can look into living.

I am going to take a drive and go there. You so right. See how my wife feels.

You have shared so much it’s touching. Thank you helping a fellow pharmacist in dire time of need. I am sending you a profound thank you.

I just had a heart to heart with my wife on the kitchen table - she is really scared. She said she thinks the clinic is less risky and is better for the kids and she doesn’t have to worry about exclusion. She said -imagine we are there for 5 years. What impact will that have on me and the kids if they are not welcomed or accepted. What if our middle child who looks like her is bullied? She says we will be in a bind and will have to move because there are no other employment opportunities for me in the area.

Have you told her that the retail start up might not be stable and that you can end up unemployed. Definitely explore the rural area. And what if there are minorities in the rural part of town. You never know. The Hospital Admin is safer in my opinion. I know I changed opinions, but I am also questioning whether the retail job will be stable enough for your family.

 

[johnpharm01]

Tough decision..but keep this in mind you have 2 job offers in this pharmacist market with many others unemployed or underemployed

 

[jojo58]

Is there a pay differential? How much is it?

 

[confettiflyer]

Ugh this is rough, as biased as I am toward hospital (I still believe it’s the better option), I can respect and appreciate the short commute, no relocation, and higher pay effects on family life.

I gotta change recommendation from the hospital job to neutral, for now. Not sure if you were keeping track, lol.

 

[Mambo#5]

There is a large population of a particular minority which is unusual for the section of the state. But by in large it's white folks. I think it would depend on the state as to whether the rural area. Maybe the rural ne ie new Hampshire would be better than the se, Indiana, Idaho.

I feel sorry for your wife. Who wants to be judged based on their appearance especially race and ethnicity. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people out there.

I’m biracial. Idaho around Boise is ok. Lots of Californians moving there too. Tons of Mormons. I liked the small city that’s growing, and there’s lots of outdoorsy things to do there. It’s beautiful. You can see antelopes on the hills and can check out Lake Tahoe from there n check out the gold mines in Elko. It is all white though. Kkk is in the northeast, and I did get an unpleasant look from a white guy in line at a supermarket in Boise.

 

[confettiflyer]

All - I’m very painfully and reluctantly leaning to the local retail opportunity. Closing my eyes while typing this but the location is just to hard to overcome especially with my wife’s resistance - I will still make a stop at the rural location regular spots and see if it makes any impact

There’s no wrong decision, everything has tradeoffs. You’ll be rewarded in different ways either way, enjoy the 4hrs/day extra with your family. Career is important, but in the end, it’s just work.

 

[rph3664]

I was leaning towards "take the in-town retail job" until you said it would pay 175K. Something's really wrong there, if it isn't a typo.

What region of the country is it? If you want to be more specific, go ahead and PM me.

 

[TheBlaah]

I personally would lean towards the retail job.

The family situation and the higher pay are the biggest factors in my mind. Another thing to consider are the schools; generally suburban/metro schools are much better than truly rural schools. But you should research that yourself.

I know you mentioned before that a outpatient clinic job is the same as retail. Quite frankly, it isn't. Sure, you have the same overall procedures, but with retail the volume is exponentially higher and there's also the constant pressure from upper management. Additionally, the fact that it's a startup probably means it won't be as busy in the beginning.

This also means there's more risk of failure and uncertain long-term prospects. But you will probably be looking for another job more related to your goals in the meantime anyway, so longterm prospects should hopefully not be a considerable factor. The higher pay helps covers that risk as well.

 

[Sine Cura]

TBF there are ******* people anywhere but they may be more inclined to keep their crap in check in urban areas, i.e., don't see many confederate flags on cars in urban areas as opposed to the Lake Tahoe basin or western AZ. Then again look at Mark Wahlberg or all the anti-Asian sentiment across the U.S.

Schools though are absolutely a reason not to move to rural areas. Unless you are able to home school

 

[Hels2007]

All - I’m very painfully and reluctantly leaning to the local retail opportunity. Closing my eyes while typing this but the location is just to hard to overcome especially with my wife’s resistance - I will still make a stop at the rural location regular spots and see if it makes any impact

Ultimately, go with your gut. Logically, you can reason pros and cons until you drive yourself nuts, but if you are unhappy with the choice you make, you will only make yourself and everyone around you miserable. Life is not a math class, there are no right or wrong choices (except some obvious dumb ones). Ten years from now you will likely look back and think 'it was the right choice' no matter which option you choose. I speak from experience, out of four major moves (as in, not moving within the same state or metro area) only once I really *wanted* to move and was excited about the area I was moving to. Every other time I believed it was the right thing to do. It was. And I ended up liking every place thus far, with the exception of the most recent one (I moved to Boston inn May, but then I know I am not getting a real Boston experience with the whole coronavirus thing and I keep reminding myself that I used to love visiting it, for work or just for a long weekend getaway).

Can't really speak to diversity but rural towns do have a different vibe, and if you aren't used to everyone knowing your business and offering plenty of unsolicited opinions, it can be off-putting. They don't mean it in a bad way, though, most of them, at least.

 

[lord999]

There’s no wrong decision, everything has tradeoffs. You’ll be rewarded in different ways either way, enjoy the 4hrs/day extra with your family. Career is important, but in the end, it’s just work.

That's one way to look at it, the other way is to think that without flexibility, one day, these choices will break you. Op needs to restructure work and family to be more versatile as stable employment is not likely for retail (and even hospital as budgets are facing dark red).

Op now that you know it's family first, the family needs to make sacrifices to prevent a 0 option choice. Your spouse needs to go to the labor market. You need another part-time job because 175 is suspicious in this labor market. Your lifestyle needs to adjust to the idea of uncertainty. That's the cost of your family's preferences to remain urban.

I have my own suspicions on the business model for why an above market salary for a HHS grant run pharmacy exists, and I wish you the best of luck and hope I'm wrong. If I am right though, it will prove the point on your talent for pharmacy administration suitably.

I pointedly disagree with the comments that this is a choice as it is only a choice if you give both consideration. I think you have framed the question wrong based on circumstances and preferences rather than viability. You reveal your choice as there isn't one in the way you frame the question. FWIW, I think your magical thinking (as is for many), that it's going to be all right, is going to seriously put you in a no-win situation. It's more that you don't have a right decision.

 

[johnpharm01]

That's one way to look at it, the other way is to think that without flexibility, one day, these choices will break you. Op needs to restructure work and family to be more versatile as stable employment is not likely for retail (and even hospital as budgets are facing dark red).

Op now that you know it's family first, the family needs to make sacrifices to prevent a 0 option choice. Your spouse needs to go to the labor market. You need another part-time job because 175 is suspicious in this labor market. Your lifestyle needs to adjust to the idea of uncertainty. That's the cost of your family's preferences to remain urban.

I have my own suspicions on the business model for why an above market salary for a HHS grant run pharmacy exists, and I wish you the best of luck and hope I'm wrong. If I am right though, it will prove the point on your talent for pharmacy administration suitably.

I pointedly disagree with the comments that this is a choice as it is only a choice if you give both consideration. I think you have framed the question wrong based on circumstances and preferences rather than viability. You reveal your choice as there isn't one in the way you frame the question. FWIW, I think your magical thinking (as is for many), that it's going to be all right, is going to seriously put you in a no-win situation. It's more that you don't have a right decision.

Lord 999 says it eloquently and I agree. I say it more simply. Then again I am only the son of a dirt farmer.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I was in a somewhat similar situation 15 years ago. I went to work as a pharmacy director at hospital in a town of 5000. I really like the job, but I don't see myself living in a town like that for a long period of time (and I grew up in a town of 800 people, 1+ hr from a city).
I did commute to this hospital from a somewhat larger city (120k people) - so that helped me maintain my sanity. Chicago and St Louis were 2-4 hours away. So that provided good weekend get-aways. Is there somewhere in the middle were you could live that would help soften the blow?
I was only there a little over year (completely different job market) then I moved across the country and got a job in one of the ciites that always makes those top 10 lists. I have been at my current job for 14 years, moved up to mgmt, and then recently took a voluntary demotion to a pure clinical job, and don't regret it.

I get your hesitations (the town I was in was not friendly to minorities - except all of the MD's were minorities and they were well respected - so I think it was a class thing)

So I would "suck it up" for a couple of years and then you will be amazed at what will open up for you. I know it seems like a long time, and moving your family sucks, but I think in the long term you will be much happier. Feel free to PM me if you want more details

 

[Fawna]

I agree with the above. Your children are young enough where a move wouldn’t matter as much. Once they get to high school it would be much tougher.
I vote for living halfway in between so your wife is ok. If you don’t want them to sacrifice too much, then you will have to commute.
it seems that you want it all and you can’t have it all. Sacrifice now for a few years to get what you want later. Also, people are suspicious about the high salary so that makes me suspicious too. Plus, why can’t you work the rural job and apply for admin roles in places where you want to live?

 

[Dred Pirate]

Would you have made this move if you had family? If you had a child that needs to be in school 8-10 hours a day by themselves? How about if you had a biracial wife and kids?
I feel like I have to sacrifice for them. It would crush me if anyone tried to harm them psychologically or physically.....sometimes I wonder if I would even be thinking about things like this, if I had married a woman the same race as myself...I don’t want to get bitter. I love my wife. She’s given me an amazing family and she is the kindest person on earth...but imagine if I didn’t have to worry about her or my kids being welcomed, accepted or fitting in. Would I be able to grow my career better? ....I’m just sad today. I’m angry too...coming to terms with letting go an amazing opportunity

I pm'd you more details - I did make the move with a spouse - not a family. I have a family now, and I could see myself doing it - I pm'd you more on the racial aspect - not necessary for me to share publicly.

I do have a friend that recently took a similar move with two kids (junior high and high school) - she dd it about a year ago and has no regrets. just one data point

 

[Rockinacoustic]

You're approaching this as a win-lose situation instead of literally meeting in the middle (geographically and with your wife's wishes)- are there not towns in between your current location and the hospital that will allow you to commute while affording your wife and kids a decent community with your old town an hour drive away??

 

[Hels2007]

Sorry, but your posts sound way melodramatic... Try to get out of the whole 'ooo woe is meee!' mindset and try to look at *both* opportunities *rationally*.

 

[Hels2007]

Thank you for your feedback. How do you suggest I do that?

Work with a trained counselor?

I personally believe in therapeutic kicks in the butt, but something tells me that's not how you roll.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Everything else aside, I would be wary of taking a "start-up" job, that could mean you are back looking for a new job in 8 months. I would go with the established hospital job....the fact that meets your long term goals is just icing on the cake.