Reporter looking to talk to people about med school applications, experiences & expenses (pre- and during COVID)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

erickrebs

New Member
Verified Media
Joined
May 5, 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
8
Hi everyone,

My name is Eric Krebs and I'm reporting for Slate Magazine on the medical school application process and how COVID affected things. I'm interested in hearing all experiences — the great and the terrible alike. I'm really interested in the interview process specifically, how remote interviews changed things and what people's experiences with them were like. I'm also really interested in learning about barriers to entry for first-gen/low-income applicants. Sound off in the comments.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Moderator note: This thread and media inquiry is allowed by SDN. @erickrebs, welcome to our community!

Please note that we do not allow private questions and discourage private responses via DMs. We believe that if a media outlet is gathering data and opinions from our users, then all of our members should be able to benefit from these answers and subsequent discussions. This will also help prevent a single post or minority opinion to be taken out of context. When the article is published, it must reference and directly link to this thread on SDN. If members are messaged privately for their opinion(s), please report the conversation. Our full rules for news media inquiries can be found here.

Disclaimer: Responding to this thread may put your response in the media spotlight.

Thank you and happy discussions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
I personally prefer virtual interviews. Not because I’m low income and can’t afford the travel expenses, but because I’m lazy and hate dealing with luggage and airports.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm a reapplicant. I applied pre-COVID, in 2018-2019, and then again this latest cycle. Ask away.
 
I liked having virtual interviews. I feel like in-person interviews would have been way more stressful. Anytime I got an II (interview invite) sometimes it was scheduled in the next week or so.

It would've been very stressful to need to take multiple days off work with such short notice (in-person interviews might be a day or two long depending on the school)--(also depends how far from home the school would be).

Also would've needed to find hotels near the school on short notice, would need to bring nice interview clothes on a plane/car in a suitcase and fear of having them misfolded.

Obviously saved a lot of money. --Although I would give my whole life savings (granted not a huge amount lol) at this moment if a school would just ccept me!! (still only on WL sadly)

I've heard from peers in prior years that when they went to in-person interviews and met the other students that they would get intimidated because everyone was trying to one-up each other with their amazing stats and EC's---honestly really glad I avoided that since I had plenty of that in undergrad with other pre-meds.

Didn't have to worry about being late.

Downsides: For 2 of my interviews the faculty member ended up having technical difficulties. So at first it was extremely stressful when I was on the zoom and time was passing and no one was showing up. I was afraid I clicked the wrong link and was afraid to log off and refresh in case the interviewer showed up at that moment and thought I was late. But this got resolved easily by just emailing admissions and letting them know what was going on.
 
  • Care
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: 3 users
What did you think about remote interviews versus in-person? Did you interview in the 2018 cycle?
I did interview for the 2018 cycle. (I received three interviews.) This cycle I virtually attended 14 interviews.

As a matter of practicality, obviously virtual interviews are better. No way I could've afforded to flown to and secured lodging at 14 locations across the country. I do like to travel, and last cycle I got to visit SoCal, Chicago, and New York, so I did certainly miss the charms of seeing and exploring a new place.

I also got very little sense of what these schools and their surrounding cities were like. The Zoom interviews all blurred together after a while, and I hardly remember what distinguished one school from another. Fortunately my decision came down to price. The schools to which I was accepted had a much greater cost-of-attendance than the one I'll ultimately be attending, so the decision was very easy. Were that not a factor, and it came down to two or three schools all of similar price, I would have needed to travel to each school to truly feel secure in my final decision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I don't think the financial gravity of virtual vs in-person interviews can be understated. To attend an in person interview there is the cost of airfare, professional attire, hotel/accommodations, and food plus the lost income from having to take days off of work. For a virtual interview, there have certainly been applicants who spent money on fancy video setups but this was not necessary. All you needed was a webcam and professional shirt and jacket/blazer and you don't have to miss as much work (or school).
This is a huge factor in equalizing the process between a high income applicant who can afford to travel to as many interviews as they are offered, thus having the best possible shot at acceptances, and a low income applicant who must choose only a few interviews to attend and therefore limits their chances at admission.
Yes, people like to travel, it was hard to get a strong sense of each school's distinct differences over zoom, and admissions faculty prefer meeting applicants in person, but I think it is hard to say that these benefits of in person interviews outweigh the potential for virtual interviews to increase diversity and equity in medicine.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 8 users
I don't think the financial gravity of virtual vs in-person interviews can be understated. To attend an in person interview there is the cost of airfare, professional attire, hotel/accommodations, and food plus the lost income from having to take days off of work. For a virtual interview, there have certainly been applicants who spent money on fancy video setups but this was not necessary. All you needed was a webcam and professional shirt and jacket/blazer and you don't have to miss as much work (or school).
This is a huge factor in equalizing the process between a high income applicant who can afford to travel to as many interviews as they are offered, thus having the best possible shot at acceptances, and a low income applicant who must choose only a few interviews to attend and therefore limits their chances at admission.
Yes, people like to travel, it was hard to get a strong sense of each school's distinct differences over zoom, and admissions faculty prefer meeting applicants in person, but I think it is hard to say that these benefits of in person interviews outweigh the potential for virtual interviews to increase diversity and equity in medicine.
I completely agree. Also once you get accepted, most schools have in-person second-look days and if not, you can always take it upon yourself to travel on your own and check out the city/neighborhood. Also current students are usually more than happy to set up zooms and answer questions. Yes it's a little harder to get a feel for the school but also being on-campus for a day or two is probably not an accurate representation of the school either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I don't think the financial gravity of virtual vs in-person interviews can be understated. To attend an in person interview there is the cost of airfare, professional attire, hotel/accommodations, and food plus the lost income from having to take days off of work. For a virtual interview, there have certainly been applicants who spent money on fancy video setups but this was not necessary. All you needed was a webcam and professional shirt and jacket/blazer and you don't have to miss as much work (or school).
This is a huge factor in equalizing the process between a high income applicant who can afford to travel to as many interviews as they are offered, thus having the best possible shot at acceptances, and a low income applicant who must choose only a few interviews to attend and therefore limits their chances at admission.
Yes, people like to travel, it was hard to get a strong sense of each school's distinct differences over zoom, and admissions faculty prefer meeting applicants in person, but I think it is hard to say that these benefits of in person interviews outweigh the potential for virtual interviews to increase diversity and equity in medicine.
How many schools did you interview for this cycle? If you don't mind me asking, would you have had to pare that down in a normal year?
 
As someone who works full-time, I actually liked the virtual interviews. Cutting out the travel time and $$ really helped with my work schedule and finances!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I applied several years ago, but would it help to have context for how much people can spend for traditional in-person interviews? I attended 6 interviews in 2017-2018, paid about $1200 in travel expenses and that's without paying for any housing (stayed with family/friends or student host at every school). Costs can be way more than that with more interviews or with paying for hotels. I was fortunate to have PTO through my job to take days off for interviews, but many non-trad students may lose income if they have to take unpaid days off
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
How many schools did you interview for this cycle? If you don't mind me asking, would you have had to pare that down in a normal year?
I had 5 interviews, all out of state. In a normal year I probably would have been able to attend all of those because of the privilege I hold vis a vis my family. I would've relied on my parents and my grandfather to contribute heavily to interview costs. With my gap year wage I could have probably afforded to attend 3 interviews, and it would've put me in financial stress.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Hi Erik, thanks for hearing us out on this.

I make about $16/hour working as a full-time worker in clinical research at a large academic medical center. Because interviews were virtual, not having to worry about paying for flights, hotel stays, or paying for food while traveling helped a lot.

Last year, I was lucky to receive four interview invites in four different states. Even the interviews in driving range weren't cheap because they involved hotel stays. Application fees are already expensive, and because an interview doesn't guarantee an acceptance, applicants feel an immense pressure to attend every single interview until they have at least one acceptance, and this usually doesn't come until well-into the interview season. I would've skipped out on my one interview that required a flight and hotel stay last year if I had already been accepted elsewhere, but because I was only on waitlists, I had no choice but spend a lot of money traveling there.

I will say this too, being from the northeastern United States, I don't think I felt the financial pressure from interview travel as heavily as my peers from the west coast have. I was able to drive to three of my interviews in New England and the mid-Atlantic, but many of the others I interviewed with had to fly in from California.

As for how the interviews themselves felt, I don't think they felt particularly different from real in-person interviews in my situation. Perhaps me and my interviewers have all just become very used to interacting with people through our webcams.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 2 users
Successful reapplicant here. For my one interview my first cycle, it costed over $1000 for travel, hotel, and food (very out of state and not very accessible), and I hadn't graduated from college yet. This time around, I saved a ton of money for my virtual interviews, which all happened to be out of state. I shudder to think of the potential thousands of money spent on flights and hotels. I had saved up all my vacation hours to prepare for travelling to interviews, but I ended up only using like a few of those vacation days. The only money I spent was to buy a nicer webcam.

This time around, I had also bought many pieces of interview clothing and worried about shoes and pants, but in the end, they didn't even show up on Zoom meetings once, which was nice to not have to worry about whether I was looking professional enough.

I think it was harder to get a sense of the school only through Zooms, because it would have been nice to visit the campus and surrounding areas to see how I would like it there or not. One school that I interviewed at gave us a virtual campus tour and most brought a lot of med students to answer any questions about culture, fit, and etc. They even opened up times where the interviewees could talk to each other which I found fun and relaxing. Other schools didn't do as great in trying to create a good interview day so I ended up not learning much about some schools, and therefore not liking them at all because I felt like they didn't really want me.

For the interview portion itself, it was harder for me to judge the interviewer's body language on how they viewed my response to questions, but overall, I felt more relaxed on these interviews than if I think I would have felt if I had in-person interviews. It's possible that the zoom interviews also affected how the interviewers saw me. I did try to be as energetic and bubbly as possible because I felt like it would have been easier to portray enthusiasm in person.

I did live in an apartment where the internet was not great and I was always fearful that my interviews would break off and that would look poorly on me. I also tried my best in trying to reconstruct a place that looked professional in the background of my interviews since my bedroom had awful lighting and terrible wallpaper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I am an ICU RN who worked extensively with critically-ill COVID+ patients and it was big part of my application and interviews, as I was getting more clinical hours throughout the year. I think that it played a huge role in me having a very successful cycle. I also liked virtual interviews; it allowed me to take a travel job across the country and do interviews at little to no cost.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I am an ICU RN who worked extensively with critically-ill COVID+ patients and it was big part of my application and interviews, as I was getting more clinical hours throughout the year. I think that it played a huge role in me having a very successful cycle. I also liked virtual interviews; it allowed me to take a travel job across the country and do interviews at little to no cost.
Not a lot of people make the jump from RN to MD! Congratulations on your cycle, too! Could you tell me a little more about why you decided to make the transition? Were you working as a travel nurse before COVID hit?

Also interested to know, if you don't mind me asking, where you were working from, and where you interviewed at?
 
Successful reapplicant here. For my one interview my first cycle, it costed over $1000 for travel, hotel, and food (very out of state and not very accessible), and I hadn't graduated from college yet. This time around, I saved a ton of money for my virtual interviews, which all happened to be out of state. I shudder to think of the potential thousands of money spent on flights and hotels. I had saved up all my vacation hours to prepare for travelling to interviews, but I ended up only using like a few of those vacation days. The only money I spent was to buy a nicer webcam.

This time around, I had also bought many pieces of interview clothing and worried about shoes and pants, but in the end, they didn't even show up on Zoom meetings once, which was nice to not have to worry about whether I was looking professional enough.

I think it was harder to get a sense of the school only through Zooms, because it would have been nice to visit the campus and surrounding areas to see how I would like it there or not. One school that I interviewed at gave us a virtual campus tour and most brought a lot of med students to answer any questions about culture, fit, and etc. They even opened up times where the interviewees could talk to each other which I found fun and relaxing. Other schools didn't do as great in trying to create a good interview day so I ended up not learning much about some schools, and therefore not liking them at all because I felt like they didn't really want me.

For the interview portion itself, it was harder for me to judge the interviewer's body language on how they viewed my response to questions, but overall, I felt more relaxed on these interviews than if I think I would have felt if I had in-person interviews. It's possible that the zoom interviews also affected how the interviewers saw me. I did try to be as energetic and bubbly as possible because I felt like it would have been easier to portray enthusiasm in person.

I did live in an apartment where the internet was not great and I was always fearful that my interviews would break off and that would look poorly on me. I also tried my best in trying to reconstruct a place that looked professional in the background of my interviews since my bedroom had awful lighting and terrible wallpaper.
What state were you based in last time around, and where were you interviews? Do you know how much you saved up for this time around?
 
Not a lot of people make the jump from RN to MD! Congratulations on your cycle, too! Could you tell me a little more about why you decided to make the transition? Were you working as a travel nurse before COVID hit?

Also interested to know, if you don't mind me asking, where you were working from, and where you interviewed at?
Thanks. I got interested in making the jump after working in an academic medical center and seeing the leadership role that the attendings played and getting an up close look at the training of new residents and med students. I started working as a travel RN after COVID hit.

I don't want to get too specific because I have a unique profile, but I worked in the mid-Atlantic and then travelled to the Southwest. I interviewed at over a dozen schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
What state were you based in last time around, and where were you interviews? Do you know how much you saved up for this time around?
I'm based in California and first cycle was in the Midwest. This cycle I had 4 interviews in both the Midwest and East Coast. I probably saved about $2000 in airfare, plus another $200 for car ride fare, and I would guess $800 in hotel fees if I wouldn't have done student hosts. I would estimate another $200 for food. Altogether around $3200.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Non-traditional, low income (just starting to make more money, so I might technically not be anymore), first-gen re-applicant (3rd cycle) here.

I think that most people in this thread all touched on how much of a logistical improvement it is to do virtual interviews. It costs significantly less money and takes significantly less time (meaning you also lose fewer wage hours due to interviews). It's also just more comfortable to be in your own home/space while interviewing.

What I don't think is appreciated is how much of a financial barrier there is to getting into medical school overall, particularly for low income, first-gen, and non-traditional applicants. The primary application itself starts at around $200 for two schools with another $40-$60 or so per school. From there, it's another roughly $100 per secondary, and this is on top of the MCAT (somewhere around $400?), any other tests (mostly cheap), and then of course any traveling expenses for in-person interviews (which can cost thousands of dollars) and the expected formal wear for interviews (often a couple hundred dollars if you don't want to "look cheap").

While there is a financial assistance program operated by the AAMC, it is particularly onerous, as are many government-base safety net programs; one has to meet a certain income threshold that requires proof and can be far from accurate concerning a person's real income conditions, and worst of all it requires information on parental income, no exceptions. This is absurdly oppressive to anyone that 1) doesn't have a good relationship with their parents, and/or 2) is a non-traditional student with their own household. I am a married non-traditional student with their own household that would qualify for the FAP, but because my parents' household income is above the threshold, I am not eligible for any assistance. The assumption here is that you can just ask your parents for money, and that is an incredibly ignorant and privileged assumption to make about every applicant. You're also expected to get a plethora of personal information on your family (e.g. where they went to school), regardless of their living status, their own knowledge of that information, your relationship with them, or any other factors, and this is just for the application itself.

While medical schools have been really pushing for diversifying their student bodies, I don't think much attention has been paid to socioeconomic diversity. Aside from the financial problems listed above, just getting into a high quality school, getting help with shaping your application to perfection, getting tutoring help for classes and the MCAT, etc. Are all essentially pay-to-succeed; the more money your family has, the easier it is for you to get a huge leg up in the admissions process. This is deeply rooted in the entire application system (and honestly our entire culture, even outside medicine), from how meticulous and precise applications are expected to be, to the grades required, to the MCAT scores needed, to the expectation of traveling to interviews (pre-COVID), to the clothing you're socially expected to wear at interviews. Common recommendations are to apply to at least a dozen schools (imagine the application fees), treat your application season as a "full-time job" (never mind actually working full time), retaking the MCAT under various scenarios, getting tutoring for the MCAT or to write your application (both quite pricey), taking more college courses or doing a DIY-post-bac (!!!), sacrificing more time volunteering or shadowing (time you can't make a wage), or other suggestions. None of these suggestions are bad in-and-of themselves, but literally every one costs a not-insignificant amount of money, and most applicants are expected to do almost all of them to compete.

To top all of this off, the application timeline is incredibly exploitative; it takes a minimum of maybe 5 months (May-Oct), but delays can make this much longer (depending on the school), interview invites don't have a guaranteed timeline (requiring you to be prepared to drop everything for the offered invite times, and requesting different times farther back in the cycle hurts your chances of an acceptance at most places), and the worst is if get put on the waitlist; this can stretch your timeline out to almost 10 months to figure out what you're doing for the next year. This is, again, far more difficult for the less privileged/those with more responsibilities; I was put on the waitlist this past cycle and didn't end up getting in, meaning I missed out on multiple serious career opportunities because I was sitting and waiting for an additional 5 months. Again, no single point is a massive problem, but when you add it all together, it hugely disadvantages a large chunk of the population.

As a side note, even virtual interviews require a stable internet connection with a high quality camera (if you don't want to be at a severe disadvantage). As we've seen with public schools going virtual during the pandemic, these requirements can be quite burdensome for populations with less money or less stable infrastructure (quality internet is far from guaranteed in the U.S.).

The exclusionary cultural issues are also laid bare by people's personal stories; countless women can tell you about what it means to even potentially have children during pre-med, medical school, or residency years, but even as a married male I've faced some astounding statements. Medical school professors from the university I recently graduated from would ask me why I'm not applying to more schools out-of-state (I only applied to three schools, all in-state) while also bluntly stating that my wife, who is in a doctoral program in psychology, should just pack up and move to wherever I get into school, and that if I'm "really serious" about medicine that I should aschew my obligations to my wife (who is professionally more successful than I), my parents, and my ailing grandparents. The dumbfounded look on their faces when I pointed out both the ignorant privilege and the stark sexism in these comments was quite telling. I've also received multiple questions and comments implicating the fact that I am married and will almost certainly have children while in medical school as some type of negative aspect to my application or to my character as a prospective physician in general, and I'm not even a woman and therefore don't have the expectation of missing work/school time due to pregnancy (nor the privilege of getting time off to spend with my newborn, not that women are always guaranteed this either).

The discussion around financial burden also devolves into, "just take out more loans! You get unlimited federal loans and if you're really dedicated you'll do this!" This doesn't take into account how financially irresponsible this is since it assumes that you will make a (American) physician's (non-primary care) salary for a decade or more to pay these off, nor does it appreciate how this attitude contributes to the massive financial and structural incentives that then contribute to primary physician shortages.

There isn't one easy fix to this problem, but it should be abundantly clear that the system was not made to accommodate those that don't already have money or privilege. I can only imagine how much more difficult this process would be for working class families that also have kids to take care of.

And, as you may have noticed, none of this even mentions the incredible cost of medical school, the complete prohibition on (and inability to) working during medical school, the obscene costs of licensing exams and traveling for residency interviews, and the abhorrent salary that residents make for what they do. I clearly think that medicine is worth the difficulties, but it cannot be overstated how economically exclusionary this field is. It has been a field for the economically privileged in this country for generations and that won't be changing soon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
  • Hmm
  • Care
Reactions: 12 users
If you're interested in the perspective of med students who interviewed for residency virtually, I'd be happy to answer any questions as well.
 
Non-traditional, low income (just starting to make more money, so I might technically not be anymore), first-gen re-applicant (3rd cycle) here.

I think that most people in this thread all touched on how much of a logistical improvement it is to do virtual interviews. It costs significantly less money and takes significantly less time (meaning you also lose fewer wage hours due to interviews). It's also just more comfortable to be in your own home/space while interviewing.

What I don't think is appreciated is how much of a financial barrier there is to getting into medical school overall, particularly for low income, first-gen, and non-traditional applicants. The primary application itself starts at around $200 for two schools with another $40-$60 or so per school. From there, it's another roughly $100 per secondary, and this is on top of the MCAT (somewhere around $400?), any other tests (mostly cheap), and then of course any traveling expenses for in-person interviews (which can cost thousands of dollars) and the expected formal wear for interviews (often a couple hundred dollars if you don't want to "look cheap").

While there is a financial assistance program operated by the AAMC, it is particularly onerous, as are many government-base safety net programs; one has to meet a certain income threshold that requires proof and can be far from accurate concerning a person's real income conditions, and worst of all it requires information on parental income, no exceptions. This is absurdly oppressive to anyone that 1) doesn't have a good relationship with their parents, and/or 2) is a non-traditional student with their own household. I am a married non-traditional student with their own household that would qualify for the FAP, but because my parents' household income is above the threshold, I am not eligible for any assistance. The assumption here is that you can just ask your parents for money, and that is an incredibly ignorant and privileged assumption to make about every applicant. You're also expected to get a plethora of personal information on your family (e.g. where they went to school), regardless of their living status, their own knowledge of that information, your relationship with them, or any other factors, and this is just for the application itself.

While medical schools have been really pushing for diversifying their student bodies, I don't think much attention has been paid to socioeconomic diversity. Aside from the financial problems listed above, just getting into a high quality school, getting help with shaping your application to perfection, getting tutoring help for classes and the MCAT, etc. Are all essentially pay-to-succeed; the more money your family has, the easier it is for you to get a huge leg up in the admissions process. This is deeply rooted in the entire application system (and honestly our entire culture, even outside medicine), from how meticulous and precise applications are expected to be, to the grades required, to the MCAT scores needed, to the expectation of traveling to interviews (pre-COVID), to the clothing you're socially expected to wear at interviews. Common recommendations are to apply to at least a dozen schools (imagine the application fees), treat your application season as a "full-time job" (never mind actually working full time), retaking the MCAT under various scenarios, getting tutoring for the MCAT or to write your application (both quite pricey), taking more college courses or doing a DIY-post-bac (!!!), sacrificing more time volunteering or shadowing (time you can't make a wage), or other suggestions. None of these suggestions are bad in-and-of themselves, but literally every one costs a not-insignificant amount of money, and most applicants are expected to do almost all of them to compete.

To top all of this off, the application timeline is incredibly exploitative; it takes a minimum of maybe 5 months (May-Oct), but delays can make this much longer (depending on the school), interview invites don't have a guaranteed timeline (requiring you to be prepared to drop everything for the offered invite times, and requesting different times farther back in the cycle hurts your chances of an acceptance at most places), and the worst is if get put on the waitlist; this can stretch your timeline out to almost 10 months to figure out what you're doing for the next year. This is, again, far more difficult for the less privileged/those with more responsibilities; I was put on the waitlist this past cycle and didn't end up getting in, meaning I missed out on multiple serious career opportunities because I was sitting and waiting for an additional 5 months. Again, no single point is a massive problem, but when you add it all together, it hugely disadvantages a large chunk of the population.

As a side note, even virtual interviews require a stable internet connection with a high quality camera (if you don't want to be at a severe disadvantage). As we've seen with public schools going virtual during the pandemic, these requirements can be quite burdensome for populations with less money or less stable infrastructure (quality internet is far from guaranteed in the U.S.).

The exclusionary cultural issues are also laid bare by people's personal stories; countless women can tell you about what it means to even potentially have children during pre-med, medical school, or residency years, but even as a married male I've faced some astounding statements. Medical school professors from the university I recently graduated from would ask me why I'm not applying to more schools out-of-state (I only applied to three schools, all in-state) while also bluntly stating that my wife, who is in a doctoral program in psychology, should just pack up and move to wherever I get into school, and that if I'm "really serious" about medicine that I should aschew my obligations to my wife (who is professionally more successful than I), my parents, and my ailing grandparents. The dumbfounded look on their faces when I pointed out both the ignorant privilege and the stark sexism in these comments was quite telling. I've also received multiple questions and comments implicating the fact that I am married and will almost certainly have children while in medical school as some type of negative aspect to my application or to my character as a prospective physician in general, and I'm not even a woman and therefore don't have the expectation of missing work/school time due to pregnancy (nor the privilege of getting time off to spend with my newborn, not that women are always guaranteed this either).

The discussion around financial burden also devolves into, "just take out more loans! You get unlimited federal loans and if you're really dedicated you'll do this!" This doesn't take into account how financially irresponsible this is since it assumes that you will make a (American) physician's (non-primary care) salary for a decade or more to pay these off, nor does it appreciate how this attitude contributes to the massive financial and structural incentives that then contribute to primary physician shortages.

There isn't one easy fix to this problem, but it should be abundantly clear that the system was not made to accommodate those that don't already have money or privilege. I can only imagine how much more difficult this process would be for working class families that also have kids to take care of.

And, as you may have noticed, none of this even mentions the incredible cost of medical school, the complete prohibition on (and inability to) working during medical school, the obscene costs of licensing exams and traveling for residency interviews, and the abhorrent salary that residents make for what they do. I clearly think that medicine is worth the difficulties, but it cannot be overstated how economically exclusionary this field is. It has been a field for the economically privileged in this country for generations and that won't be changing soon.
Many good points were made in this post. There were also some age-based naivety as well.

Most expensive things require loans to create the necessary leverage to obtain. By no means am I justifying the costs and certainly not to be used as a barrier to entry. The fact of the matter is that loans are available to enable students to cover full COA. Unless a family is in the top 0.5 Percentile income, it is highly unlikely that they will be affording the student a loan-free education for graduate school without severely impacting their own future fiscal health. This is especially true formthose students who received family money for loan-free undergraduate education. ( top 1% info How much do you need to make to be in the top 1% in every state? Here's the list )

Taking loans for both the process and schooling to obtain an MD degree is one of the best return on investments available in choosing a profession; especially true across the entire national graduating class unlike MBAs and JD degrees that skew heavily toward a handful of schools producing high income careers. I agree however that likely the largest financial obstacles in the process occurs from the start until acceptance, where government loans aren't available for the costs incurred. MCAT prep and test, primary and secondary application fees (and by the way I believe the average number of schools applied to is about 15 or 16), interview and second look travel. Interview travel can easily average $500 per interview, and app fees about $120 per school (each school has a primary and secondary app). I agree, Credit cards are about the only way many applicants can afford the process without family assistance and should be addressed somehow (maybe shift to increased med school fees in order to reduce app fees or something else to enable government loans for the process.) In the end, there are many applicants that apply to well over 20 schools and finding not uncommon to have total costs between $5000 to $10,000 dollars before matriculation.

As far as having children, it is an individual choice for all people of all careers. Children require sacrafice and it is up to the individual tomdecide if it is worth it. The sacrafice of convenience, cost, career progression, and impact on colleagues, is often dictated by where a person is within their career. Often the earlier one has children the more that is sacraficed related to career. However, children are optional and hose that choose to notmhave them shouldn't also have to sacrafice, or be impacted by those that do.
 
Many good points were made in this post. There were also some age-based naivety as well.

Most expensive things require loans to create the necessary leverage to obtain. By no means am I justifying the costs and certainly not to be used as a barrier to entry. The fact of the matter is that loans are available to enable students to cover full COA. Unless a family is in the top 0.5 Percentile income, it is highly unlikely that they will be affording the student a loan-free education for graduate school without severely impacting their own future fiscal health. This is especially true formthose students who received family money for loan-free undergraduate education. ( top 1% info How much do you need to make to be in the top 1% in every state? Here's the list )

Taking loans for both the process and schooling to obtain an MD degree is one of the best return on investments available in choosing a profession; especially true across the entire national graduating class unlike MBAs and JD degrees that skew heavily toward a handful of schools producing high income careers. I agree however that likely the largest financial obstacles in the process occurs from the start until acceptance, where government loans aren't available for the costs incurred. MCAT prep and test, primary and secondary application fees (and by the way I believe the average number of schools applied to is about 15 or 16), interview and second look travel. Interview travel can easily average $500 per interview, and app fees about $120 per school (each school has a primary and secondary app). I agree, Credit cards are about the only way many applicants can afford the process without family assistance and should be addressed somehow (maybe shift to increased med school fees in order to reduce app fees or something else to enable government loans for the process.) In the end, there are many applicants that apply to well over 20 schools and finding not uncommon to have total costs between $5000 to $10,000 dollars before matriculation.

As far as having children, it is an individual choice for all people of all careers. Children require sacrafice and it is up to the individual tomdecide if it is worth it. The sacrafice of convenience, cost, career progression, and impact on colleagues, is often dictated by where a person is within their career. Often the earlier one has children the more that is sacraficed related to career. However, children are optional and hose that choose to notmhave them shouldn't also have to sacrafice, or be impacted by those that do.

I don't really see it as accurate to insinuate "age-based naivety" when you not bring up any points that are really surprising or give a unique age-based insight.

I'm in my 30's, ny the way, so I'm not exactly a young kid.

Your provide the answer to the rebuttal of your first paragraph; the costs of applying to and getting through medical school are not justified and are not an ethically justifiable barrier to entry into the profession. Furthermore, your second paragraph echoes my point explicitly; the costs of medical school in-and-of-themselves aren't the notably exclusionary aspect of this entire system; it is the cost of getting into medical school in the first place, which is the focus of this post and is probably the most ethically troubling aspect of the entire medical education pipeline.

As for your point concerning children, yes, everyone knows that having children is a choice. It is also a choice that is necessary for propogation of the human species, and it is disingenuous to discuss having children as a choice in the same vein as choosing a career or choosing what kind of house you live in. Biological, psycho-social, and economic concerns make having children demonstrably different, and many schools of thought see having children at the intersection of a fundamental human right, social responsibility, and biological imperative, meaning that summarily justifying barriers to entry to an entire profession based on having children is, at-best, ethically questionable. There are numerous economically discriminatory implications of this, since what hasn't been mentioned is that poorer populations have, on average, more children and also have them when they're younger (due to a number of socioeconomic discriminatory factors), meaning that justifying barriers to professional entry based on having children necessarily discriminates against the poor. It's also worth mentioning that numerous high-powered professions have lower barriers to entry and are more socioeconomically inclusionary, as are numerous professions that demand an even higher level of dedication and sacrifice, such as the military.

This doesn't justify using children as an excuse for getting out of the work that needs to be done (e.g. having children shouldn't excuse someone from completing the didactic and clinical education required to become a competent physician), but the system of medical education shouldn't require such financial resources that having children is a significant financial disadvantage to pursuing the actual education and training. Even if you don't think this is ethically correct (a rather cold-hearted conclusion, but to each their own), it is one of the more indisputably positive social policy goals to have from a consequentialist standpoint; excluding people based on economic factors limits the pool of people that can enter certain professions, limiting that profession's competence when dealing with a diverse population (already a problem in medicine) and also limiting the overall number of people that can join that profession (also already a problem in medicine). Conversely, if you lowered economic barriers to medicine, you would continue to diversify the physician profession, improving its competence when dealing with underserved and rural populations while also gaining more individuals that would be interested in a more diverse array of places to work and simultaneously just improving your applicant pool overall by allowing high quality but low-income applicants a feasible shot at joining the profession.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
To your first point about virtual interviews:


I think the financial aspects of interviewing are overstated and the cost of virtual interviews have actually harmed more low-income / non-traditional applicants. While traveling for med school interviews can be costly financially, the major constraint is time. Traveling across the country during a semester can eat valuable days needed for studying or other work. This provides downward pressure on the number and location of schools people are willing to apply to and interviews people are willing to accept. This cycle, from what I've heard, the total number of applicants in the pool did not change dramatically, but each applicant applied to many more schools. Acceptances and interviews tend to follow a Pareto distribution (the top cohort of applicants hold a significant chunk of them) the cost to those applicants helps even everything out. Because of virtual interviewing, there was no time or financial cost to accepting every interview you were given, regardless of distance from the school or other acceptances. This specifically works against low-income students who are probably more likely to be constrained to their state school for the tuition benefits. That is to say, if I am low income it might be cost prohibitive of me to go anywhere else besides an in-state medical school. If the 10% of applicants nationally all start throwing applications into the pot of interviews in my state, and then accepting those interviews because they come at no-cost (to them), then I might get shut-out from the few schools I can financially manage to go to. This is compounded by the significant challenges AMCAS had (seemingly) in getting applications out the door. My application was not finalized by AMCAS until September which means I was competing for the few remaining interview seats, in fact none of my interviews happened before January. At this point, surely, I was interviewing with students who already had been tendered acceptances to other schools, as some schools begin interviewing as early as August/September. Thus, because of the "cheap" interviews, students who probably already held acceptances to numerous other programs accepted interviews to schools that they otherwise would not entertain because "why not?" I know anecdotally that this has happened this cycle.


As for non-traditional students, I'm pretty non-traditional starting med school at 30 and having been a military veteran and previously homeless (when I got out) among other things. If interested in more details, I can pm you a profile my school did on me but for anonymity purposes I can't post it here.

I think mileage varies among schools, but there are two sides to the coin. First, med schools have fairly well established expectations and generally do not seem to budge on these things. As a non-trad student this boils down to a lot of structural hoops you have to jump through. On the flip side, if you do jump through these hoops, med schools seem to express great interest in non-trad students with diverse life experiences. The bottleneck is more-or-less getting your foot in the door. Initial applications can cost thousands of dollars, and you need to invest significant time and money in order to even have a solid application (I spent hundreds of dollars on MCAT prep, for instance). Furthermore, as someone who started college at 25, who transferred schools, and who took multiple semesters off in order to work full time (so I could focus on school when I attended) securing all the things necessary for a good application was difficult. It can be challenging to get good recommendations from professors, research experience, volunteer hours, ect. For instance, I had to specifically address a glaring lack of research in my application (and weak volunteer hours) given that I had to postpone my college career twice in order to work. Under those circumstances, no lab at school would take me. Furthermore, it seems that some schools and adcoms have varying opinions and interpretations of the non-trad experience and how much "traditional" application experiences they want carried over. I was surprised that my application gained traction among many solid schools while I was wholly ignored by very service-oriented schools that I thought my background was better suited for. For instance, one local school that I was flat-out rejected too demands a couple hundred hours of volunteer experience that is non-clinically related, like volunteering at a soup kitchen. Having actually been homeless, and with 10 years worth of rather arduous public service professionally, I felt that my application was more value-aligned to this school, but that I may have been screened out due to a lack of dedicated non-clinical volunteering.

Another big hang-up for me was getting clinical experience with actual physicians, which I actually was unable to secure. Most of my advisors (and people on this website) will tell you that physician shadowing is a must, or at least highly beneficial. However, when I asked classmates of mine how they were getting their shadowing hours, I would get answers like "my dad is chief X department at Y hospital so I shadow in the summer." I never grew up around any physicians and don't have any in my immediate family (or even close to immediate family, a few distant cousins I've never met), gaining shadow opportunities was a challenge I was never able to really overcome.

Furthermore, I'll say that being a non-trad med applicant can be very, very intimidating. Many med applicants have to reapply, some multiple times. Sometimes, non-trad students are already coming from fairly lucrative and well established careers (one guy I interviewed with had a PhD in computer science, and there are more than a few nurse-to-doctor non-trads) but I was essentially a manual laborer in a far from lucrative public service job. Despite the distinct lack of upward mobility my previous profession afforded me, it did pay the bills and many of the people I worked with continued in the job and gained further qualifications and higher status within the field. For me, pursuing med school was a very high-risk, high-reward thing. I was not otherwise interested in pursing anything else in the Biology field. Had I not achieved an acceptance, I would be returning to my previous low-wage, dangerous, manual labor job, probably permanently. Traditional med applicants have a little more flexibility in this. While it is unpleasant, they are applying at a younger age than I was when I got out of the military. They can accept a few gap years to work on their application. Approaching my thirties, there are only so times I get to reinvent myself and there is only so much time I can dedicate to dead-ends before I have to think really critically about my long-term career. I suspect that this is the case for many non-trad students, especially those of the working class. Probably more than any other barrier for non-trads, I think a general uncertainty of how their life experiences will be received, and how very challenging and often times non-productive commitment a premed education can be, represents the biggest bottle-neck.

One commenter here noted the issues with AMCAS and the process for means-testing financial support from them which I wholly agree with. At this point I have been financially independent for over 10 years and my folks are retired. Regardless of how one feels about the financial obligations parents owe their children, I can't think of one working class adult who would go to their parents for money order to cover education-related expenses. I certainly didn't, hence why I interrupted my education multiple times to raise the cash on my own. There is certainly a lot more the medical community can and should do to recruit non-traditional students into the field, which I think would be invaluable to the profession.


Lastly, another commenter spoke about the apparent ease in assuming debt and how these things are "expected" if you "really want to be a doctor." This is a distinctly non-trad non-working class attitude. Having graduated High School during the great recession, I avoid debt like the plague. I've seen how much student debt has hampered the financial growth of my college-educated peers. As well, being older, I have less time to work off this debt and pursuing medicine postpones my entrance into the workforce by many more years. A medical school education cost as much as a house and if you pursue longer residency (psych, surgery, ect) then it would be 9-10 additional years before you could seriously start paying down that debt. That would place us non-trads in the 40-50 y/o range when we get to start paying off that debt, and at that point a significant amount of money would be going to
taxes.

Often the earlier one has children the more that is sacraficed related to career. However, children are optional and hose that choose to notmhave them shouldn't also have to sacrafice, or be impacted by those that do.

According to all the evolutionary theory I know.... children aren't optional, from a population perspective. One has to wonder what the value is in taking the best-and-brightest of your population and keeping them from reproducing.
 
Last edited:
I don't really see it as accurate to insinuate "age-based naivety" when you not bring up any points that are really surprising or give a unique age-based insight.

I'm in my 30's, ny the way, so I'm not exactly a young kid.

Your provide the answer to the rebuttal of your first paragraph; the costs of applying to and getting through medical school are not justified and are not an ethically justifiable barrier to entry into the profession. Furthermore, your second paragraph echoes my point explicitly; the costs of medical school in-and-of-themselves aren't the notably exclusionary aspect of this entire system; it is the cost of getting into medical school in the first place, which is the focus of this post and is probably the most ethically troubling aspect of the entire medical education pipeline.

As for your point concerning children, yes, everyone knows that having children is a choice. It is also a choice that is necessary for propogation of the human species, and it is disingenuous to discuss having children as a choice in the same vein as choosing a career or choosing what kind of house you live in. Biological, psycho-social, and economic concerns make having children demonstrably different, and many schools of thought see having children at the intersection of a fundamental human right, social responsibility, and biological imperative, meaning that summarily justifying barriers to entry to an entire profession based on having children is, at-best, ethically questionable. There are numerous economically discriminatory implications of this, since what hasn't been mentioned is that poorer populations have, on average, more children and also have them when they're younger (due to a number of socioeconomic discriminatory factors), meaning that justifying barriers to professional entry based on having children necessarily discriminates against the poor. It's also worth mentioning that numerous high-powered professions have lower barriers to entry and are more socioeconomically inclusionary, as are numerous professions that demand an even higher level of dedication and sacrifice, such as the military.

This doesn't justify using children as an excuse for getting out of the work that needs to be done (e.g. having children shouldn't excuse someone from completing the didactic and clinical education required to become a competent physician), but the system of medical education shouldn't require such financial resources that having children is a significant financial disadvantage to pursuing the actual education and training. Even if you don't think this is ethically correct (a rather cold-hearted conclusion, but to each their own), it is one of the more indisputably positive social policy goals to have from a consequentialist standpoint; excluding people based on economic factors limits the pool of people that can enter certain professions, limiting that profession's competence when dealing with a diverse population (already a problem in medicine) and also limiting the overall number of people that can join that profession (also already a problem in medicine). Conversely, if you lowered economic barriers to medicine, you would continue to diversify the physician profession, improving its competence when dealing with underserved and rural populations while also gaining more individuals that would be interested in a more diverse array of places to work and simultaneously just improving your applicant pool overall by allowing high quality but low-income applicants a feasible shot at joining the profession.

If you're willing to dish out approx. quarter million for medical school tuition in addition to how much you had to pay for undergrad, whining about the cost to apply is just complaining for the sake of complaining. It's also a choice to pursue medicine. If you don't like the deal being dealt to you then don't go? No one is forcing you. Shoehorning the word "ethically" into every other sentence doesn't change that fact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If you're willing to dish out approx. quarter million for medical school tuition in addition to how much you had to pay for undergrad, whining about the cost to apply is just complaining for the sake of complaining. It's also a choice to pursue medicine. If you don't like the deal being dealt to you then don't go? No one is forcing you. Shoehorning the word "ethically" into every other sentence doesn't change that fact.
This issue isn't so much the cost of applying but the accessibility to even come up with the $5k-$10k for those that don't have that money; primarily non-traditional and low ses applicants. Maybe AAMC or AMCASS can partner with Visa / Mastercard to provide a guaranteed CC for applicants so they don't have to limit their applications.
-------
Also, I previously forgot to mention...
Resident salaries are low yes. But students need tomremembet that Residency years are part of the education to become board certified for which you aren't paying. Add $70k of unpaid tuition to the salary and it is somewhat reasonable pay for a entry position.

And as far as loans to cover everything, even someone finishing their fellowship at 40 (after 10 years) has a 25 year horizon to pay back the original $400k with earnings conservatively of $7.5M if training for ten years. Every conversation on SDN that recommends deciding if the ROI is right for the candidate, just like any investment where there is an expected return.
 
If you're willing to dish out approx. quarter million for medical school tuition in addition to how much you had to pay for undergrad, whining about the cost to apply is just complaining for the sake of complaining. It's also a choice to pursue medicine. If you don't like the deal being dealt to you then don't go? No one is forcing you. Shoehorning the word "ethically" into every other sentence doesn't change that fact.
Sure, if it's important for you to rely on an arbitrary stratification of people based on the income bracket that they are involuntarily born into to weed out the people you don't like from getting into this profession, this take is fine.

But for those of us who actually realize that being excluded from certain professions based on your wealth is horrifically unjust and that it just continues to propagate wealth inequality and class-based oppression, that doesn't really cut it. Neither does your interpretation of the complex financial issues surrounding medical education, the simplest error being that the actual loans for paying for school are unlimited and federally guaranteed, whereas no such financial aid exists for the process of applying to school first.

Also, I previously forgot to mention...
Resident salaries are low yes. But students need tomremembet that Residency years are part of the education to become board certified for which you aren't paying. Add $70k of unpaid tuition to the salary and it is somewhat reasonable pay for a entry position.

Residency is employed labor. Trying to brush it over as purely education is an attempt to trivialize how poorly residents are treated as employees and justify how much they are exploited.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sure, if it's important for you to rely on an arbitrary stratification of people based on the income bracket that they are involuntarily born into to weed out the people you don't like from getting into this profession, this take is fine.
I didn't say any of this.

Neither does your interpretation of the complex financial issues surrounding medical education, the simplest error being that the actual loans for paying for school are unlimited and federally guaranteed, whereas no such financial aid exists for the process of applying to school first.
You can take out a personal loan from a bank or credit union.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I didn't say any of this.


You can take out a personal loan from a bank or credit union.

I think that my conclusions on your motivations were justified by the way that you disregarded the real struggles of poor people trying to get into this profession.

Personal loans are significantly more difficult to obtain than federal loans; you need to have sufficient credit and need to be able to prove that you can reliably pay them back (and going into medical school generally isn't good enough, especially since you are taking out the loan before you get any acceptances). These private loans also tend to have significantly higher interest rates and have much less forgiving repayment terms.

I would highly suggest that you take the time to talk to working class/poor people about the financial realities of doing anything like this, or at least study the topic in-depth. It will probably help you empathize with poor patients in your future career.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sufficed to say, I think a quick take of "that's the game, pay the money or don't do it" is not a good look for you.
It's the truth. There's plenty of careers that don't require the cost or time that medicine does. You are fully aware of what is required and no one is coercing you into it. That's not "oppression" or "horrific" or whatever adjective you want to use.

I would highly suggest that you take the time to talk to working class/poor people about the financial realities of doing anything like this
Just talked to my parents, who grew up dirt poor in a country on the other side of the planet, and they agree with me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Moderator note:
There are many different views on the process of applying to and paying for medical school, not to mention the stresses that trainees are subject to throughout their medical training. Certainly, some of these issues can be highly-charged and emotional. These topics are important to discuss, but can be done without resorting to personal attacks. Please remember that reasonable people can disagree on matters of substance. Thank you for your understanding.

1620595571495.png
 
  • Like
  • Love
  • Care
Reactions: 4 users
It's the truth. There's plenty of careers that don't require the cost or time that medicine does. You are fully aware of what is required and no one is coercing you into it. That's not "oppression" or "horrific" or whatever overly dramatic adjective you want to use.
Just because it's the truth of the current reality doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It's the truth. There's plenty of careers that don't require the cost or time that medicine does. You are fully aware of what is required and no one is coercing you into it. That's not "oppression" or "horrific" or whatever adjective you want to use.


Just talked to my parents, who grew up dirt poor in a country on the other side of the planet, and they agree with me.


The question was about barriers to medicine for non-trad, low ses type students. Those of us who fit that bill submitted our experiences. I don't understand what you find problematic.


Also, guess what? A lot of the working class people I know don't like or trust doctors. The physician profession desperately needs people that can relate to their patients if it wants successful outreach on matters like public health. There is a reason our government can't exactly sell a vaccine in a pandemic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The question was about barriers to medicine for non-trad, low ses type students. Those of us who fit that bill submitted our experiences. I don't understand what you find problematic.


Also, guess what? A lot of the working class people I know don't like or trust doctors. The physician profession desperately needs people that can relate to their patients if it wants successful outreach on matters like public health. There is a reason our government can't exactly sell a vaccine in a pandemic.
I know it's harder for low SES applicants, I'm not denying that, but calling it "oppression" and "horrifying" because the process is expensive is just... come on?

When you're an attending you'll be making top 1% money, so I don't really feel telling poor patients that you were once upon a time also poor will build much trust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Residency is employed labor. Trying to brush it over as purely education is an attempt to trivialize how poorly residents are treated as employees and justify how much they are exploited.
To most, when you receive a Graduate Medical Education Degree from a University or Medical College, and qualifies you to sit for national boards, it is considered Education! Just because you are paid doesn't mean it isn't, just like PHD students receive a stipend. I am countering your statement that it is severely underpaid labor by indicating you aren't just labor getting paid $75k'ish per year, you are also receiving $70k of graduate medical education each year as well; and when added together is reasonable for an entry level job where you aren't even yet qualified to perform all the duties of the job. (haven't been exposed to everything yet, nor board certified).
 
I know it's harder for low SES applicants, I'm not denying that, but calling it "oppression" and "horrifying" because the process is expensive is just... come on?

When you're an attending you'll be making top 1% money, so I don't really feel telling poor patients that you were once upon a time also poor will build much trust.

The simple point is that it is a significant barrier, one or many, that makes the calculus not worth it for many SES and non-trad applicants.

And its not about being like "your poor! I was poor once!"

It's about not being like this:




You have to wonder how tone deaf the profession has to be if their national outreach about vaccination is "I'm a doctor, ****! [Flips bird]."

Actual doctors did that... on national television.
 
Last edited:
The simple point is that it is a significant barrier, one or many, that makes the calculus not worth it for many SES and non-trad applicants.

And its not about being like "your poor! I was poor once!"

It's about not being like this:




You have to wonder how tone deaf the profession has to be if their national outreach about vaccination is "I'm a doctor, struggling! [Flips bird]."

Actual doctors did that... on national television.

They were trying to be funny on TV and they failed. You also don’t need to be poor to not be like this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
They were trying to be funny on TV and they failed. You also don’t need to be poor to not be like this.

True, but you can only be like this with an inflated self-worth that is out of touch with the actual people you are nominally trying to reach. Something tells me these physicians don't have many friends without college degrees, and probably never lived in communities where the medical profession isn't explicitly worshipped.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
True, but you can only be like this with an inflated self-worth that is out of touch with the actual people you are nominally trying to reach. Something tells me these physicians don't have many friends without college degrees, and probably never lived in communities where the medical profession isn't explicitly worshipped.
If this is your take away, you are significantly inserting your own bias.
There was one theme in the video; it's commentary was specific to educating people to listen to those educated and qualified to speak about the vaccination, and Not those who are not qualified. Dr. Google has been a huge adversary, time sink, and frustration for physicians; often giving patients bad information, or creating wrong interpretations related to medicine and treatments that waste time having to be undone (and often unsuccessfully) in order to start having a proper care discussion for their need. This video, was about taking medical advice, and there was nothing related to whether people trying to learn were educated, wealthy, poor, minority or other as you indicated. It also attempted to demonstrate to those 'communities' you reference, that there is a singular medical message to take the vaccine by using many different cultural representatives throughout the video giving the consistent message.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
If this is your take away, you are significantly inserting your own bias.
There was one theme in the video; it's commentary was specific to educating people to listen to those educated and qualified to speak about the vaccination, and Not those who are not qualified. Dr. Google has been a huge adversary, time sink, and frustration for physicians; often giving patients bad information, or creating wrong interpretations related to medicine and treatments that waste time having to be undone (and often unsuccessfully) in order to start having a proper care discussion for their need. This video, was about taking medical advice, and there was nothing related to whether people trying to learn were educated, wealthy, poor, minority or other as you indicated. It also attempted to demonstrate to those 'communities' you reference, that there is a singular medical message to take the vaccine by using many different cultural representatives throughout the video giving the consistent message.

This is ridiculous.

It was a nightly show where physicians simply mocked a characterization of people who haven't gotten the vaccine. A rather simplistic characterization at that. This wasn't trying to convince people to the vaccine in any serious manner becoming of the medical profession, it was cheap laughs at the expense of those who haven't gotten it.

Maybe I'm weird for thinking that "I'm smarter than you so stay in your lane" isn't the best argument to make to people who already don't trust you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
The question was about barriers to medicine for non-trad, low ses type students. Those of us who fit that bill submitted our experiences. I don't understand what you find problematic.


Also, guess what? A lot of the working class people I know don't like or trust doctors. The physician profession desperately needs people that can relate to their patients if it wants successful outreach on matters like public health. There is a reason our government can't exactly sell a vaccine in a pandemic.
I had a ER doc laugh at me and wait for the shift-change to discharge me. Insurance discrimination exists. Thanks for pointing this out.
 
You know, when this thread started I thought there was no way it could result in bickering or off topic discussions. I really underestimated you guys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I live in rural America, 7 hours from the nearest large airport. Virtual interviews were quite frankly the only reason I had such a successful cycle. I attended 17 interviews and ended up with 15 acceptances and 3 full ride scholarships. There's no way this would have been possible without virtual interviews! It's imperative they stay virtual to help bring some semblance of equity to this inherently privileged process.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 2 users
I live in rural America, 7 hours from the nearest large airport. Virtual interviews were quite frankly the only reason I had such a successful cycle. I attended 17 interviews and ended up with 15 acceptances and 3 full ride scholarships. There's no way this would have been possible without virtual interviews! It's imperative they stay virtual to help bring some semblance of equity to this inherently privileged process.
Just to check my sarcasm meter, are you serious? If so, those stats are really impressive!
 
Top