Omegadramon

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/29/house-republicans-release-b-health-care-plan/'

House Republicans on Wednesday unveiled a $700 billion health care plan that would offer tax credits to help people buy insurance, yet unlike Democratic proposals, wouldn't require either individuals or employers to get coverage.
Some of the ideas in the plan appeal to moderate Democrats, but with Republicans out of power, there's little likelihood their proposal will be enacted. Nonetheless, it will give GOP lawmakers under fire for their opposition to President Obama's plan something positive to point to when they go home for the congressional August break.
"We are introducing this bill because we support health care reform, but in way that empowers patients," said Brendan Buck, a spokesman for the House Republican Study Committee. "While the president continues to insist there is appetite for the status quo in Congress, it's not coming from Republicans."
The plan avoids expanding the federal role in overseeing the health insurance industry. Unlike Democratic proposals, it would not set up new federally regulated purchasing pools for individuals and small businesses. Instead, it would allow individuals to use the Internet to purchase lower-cost coverage available anywhere in the country. That idea won't please insurance commissioners from states with strong consumer protections, who have argued it will set off a "race to the bottom" that undermines coverage for those in frail health.


I haven't seen the plan personally, but judging from this article, it really doesn't seem to solve the overarching problems. Unless, of course, tax cuts and the invisible hand of free market can revamp the system.

Your thoughts? I'm disappointed neither plan has much in store for RPhs.
 

Old Timer

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/29/house-republicans-release-b-health-care-plan/'

House Republicans on Wednesday unveiled a $700 billion health care plan that would offer tax credits to help people buy insurance, yet unlike Democratic proposals, wouldn't require either individuals or employers to get coverage.
Some of the ideas in the plan appeal to moderate Democrats, but with Republicans out of power, there's little likelihood their proposal will be enacted. Nonetheless, it will give GOP lawmakers under fire for their opposition to President Obama's plan something positive to point to when they go home for the congressional August break.
"We are introducing this bill because we support health care reform, but in way that empowers patients," said Brendan Buck, a spokesman for the House Republican Study Committee. "While the president continues to insist there is appetite for the status quo in Congress, it's not coming from Republicans."
The plan avoids expanding the federal role in overseeing the health insurance industry. Unlike Democratic proposals, it would not set up new federally regulated purchasing pools for individuals and small businesses. Instead, it would allow individuals to use the Internet to purchase lower-cost coverage available anywhere in the country. That idea won't please insurance commissioners from states with strong consumer protections, who have argued it will set off a "race to the bottom" that undermines coverage for those in frail health.


I haven't seen the plan personally, but judging from this article, it really doesn't seem to solve the overarching problems. Unless, of course, tax cuts and the invisible hand of free market can revamp the system.

Your thoughts? I'm disappointed neither plan has much in store for RPhs.
Look politics is simple. The republicans are whores to the insurance industry. That's why their plan would eviscerate states ability to regulate health care. The dems are whores to the unions and the trial lawyers... and so it goes....
 

Quiksilver

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george washington warned us about political parties and he was a pretty smart guy. its too bad hes not president right now.
 

WVUPharm2007

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The invisible hand of the market appears to enjoy grabbing various objects and beating people with it.

The problem is that the people with power are obsessed with following an IDEOLOGY rather than using some ****ing sense.

Useless, all of 'em.

They need to make me president. I'll fix this **** right quick.
 

Praziquantel86

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Tyranny of the minority...Thomas Jefferson was right. Who are the nurses to determine what is better for the 95% of everyone else out there?
 

charfdorn

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Yeah, the problem with the healthcare system is all the taxes I'm paying on my insurance premiums. If only I could pay them tax-free, I'd be getting all kinds of coverage.

The problem with the insurance system is that insurance companies' business model is focused on denying claims and paying as little as possible. They don't want you to get better, they want you to pay your premiums and then screw up later so they don't have to pay your claim.
 
OP
O

Omegadramon

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Look politics is simple. The republicans are whores to the insurance industry. That's why their plan would eviscerate states ability to regulate health care. The dems are whores to the unions and the trial lawyers... and so it goes....
I know, I know. I just wish people would put aside all this petty stuff and actually fix healthcare. Something that affects so many lives (and our jobs)
 

IrishHammer

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IrishHammer

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The invisible hand of the market appears to enjoy grabbing various objects and beating people with it.

The problem is that the people with power are obsessed with following an IDEOLOGY rather than using some ****ing sense.

Useless, all of 'em.

They need to make me president. I'll fix this **** right quick.
I'd only vote for you if Z was your running mate.
 

117296

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The invisible hand of the market appears to enjoy grabbing various objects and beating people with it.

The problem is that the people with power are obsessed with following an IDEOLOGY rather than using some ****ing sense.

Useless, all of 'em.

They need to make me president. I'll fix this **** right quick.
If there were a Top 10 posts of SDN, this should be in it somewhere. :thumbup:
 

ScionxTCee

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I am sick of seeing people come in in the pharmacy on welfare with fake tits, chemical peels, and new SUVs for there 100 kids from different fathers, and then complain about their 2 dollar copay; when the rest is paid for by my hard work and tax dollars. screw them; health care shouldn't be free or shouldn't be a right, its a responsiblity and a privlege.
 

WVUPharm2007

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I am sick of seeing people come in in the pharmacy on welfare with fake tits, chemical peels, and new SUVs for there 100 kids from different fathers, and then complain about their 2 dollar copay; when the rest is paid for by my hard work and tax dollars. screw them; health care shouldn't be free or shouldn't be a right, its a responsiblity and a privlege.
Those are called drug dealers/ drug dealers' girlfriends. There are always going to be those that can exploit the system.

Interestingly, I'd literally be dead right now if it weren't for medicaid as I faced a life threatening illness when I was a child. Which means that you want me dead. So **** you.
 

browneyes021

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I am sick of seeing people come in in the pharmacy on welfare with fake tits, chemical peels, and new SUVs for there 100 kids from different fathers, and then complain about their 2 dollar copay; when the rest is paid for by my hard work and tax dollars. screw them; health care shouldn't be free or shouldn't be a right, its a responsiblity and a privlege.
While I understand how disheartening it must be to see those who take advantage of a system that was created to help people, you still have to think of those who are less fortunate and a need some help in obtaining healthcare. I absolutely understand your frustration, but I would never want to 'screw' those who need help all because of those who take advantage of a program. Remember, there are also those out there at the top who reap the benefits of tax breaks and find other holes in the system. So you can't just get mad at the drug dealers without getting mad at corporate CEOs also.
 

Ava999

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Those are called drug dealers/ drug dealers' girlfriends. There are always going to be those that can exploit the system.

Interestingly, I'd literally be dead right now if it weren't for medicaid as I faced a life threatening illness when I was a child. Which means that you want me dead. So **** you.
LOL... I for one want Universal Health care, and I encourage others to watch a Michael Moore film called SICKO, it makes you see just how good Universal Health care is, and how health care should be free. It's not like you ask to be sick, so why pay to get better?
 
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i don't think sicko did a fair job in showing cuba's healthcare system. From what I've read it seems they have a two tier system, the wealthy vs. the poor.
Cuba's system is great if you are rich or some kind of foreign diplomat, but the poor in Cuba have terrible healthcare. I've read of stories of patients being forced to bring their own supplies for their hospitalization. And don't get me started on the government promoting abortions in order to keep the infant mortality rate down...

I recommend the frontline documentary "Sick Around the World"http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
 

Rockinacoustic

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LOL... I for one want Universal Health care, and I encourage others to watch a Michael Moore film called SICKO, it makes you see just how good Universal Health care is, and how health care should be free. It's not like you ask to be sick, so why pay to get better?
Nothing in life is free, unless of course you want to offer you services as a pharmacist in the future for nothing. Didn't think so.
 

Pharmavixen

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I am sick of seeing people come in in the pharmacy on welfare with fake tits, chemical peels, and new SUVs for there 100 kids from different fathers, and then complain about their 2 dollar copay; when the rest is paid for by my hard work and tax dollars. screw them; health care shouldn't be free or shouldn't be a right, its a responsiblity and a privlege.
There are always scammers; I work in methadone maintenance so many of my pts are drug dealers on welfare. But most people on welfare are not drug dealers.

There are sensible arguments to be made for single-payer health care that have nothing to do with declaring health care to be a right. For one thing, single-payer is more cost-effective. The American government actually spends more per capita on health care than the Canadian government, but leaves tens of millions uninsured, while in Canada, everybody is covered.

Also, in the midst of this recession, it's good for business. When the government covers health care, that's a benefit businesses don't have to provide. Wouldn't it have been better for the government to put the money into healthcare rather than it handing to banks and investment companies? It's a way for the government to help the economy that is fair to everybody.

Canada is getting tremendously dissed by the American republicans, and we're not happy. Allow me to post something here I originally posted on a Canadian political message board:
Why is Canadian health care being slagged by Americans?
As of 2007, Canada's health care costs were $ 3,895 per capita, while USian were $ 7,290.

Let's do the math: if Americans adopted a system like ours, it would be this much cheaper: $7,290-3,895 = $3,395 per capita. (All in US dollars.) The USian population is 306,967,726 (from the population clock). That's assuming the costs would be exactly the same, which wouldn't be the case; for instance, drugs are generally much more expensive in the US.

So: $3,395 in savings X 306,967,726 citizens = $ 1,042,155,429,770 total funds lost to health care corporations if the US adopted a Canadian-style health care system.

Why should we care if a bunch of knuckle-dragging greedy pointy-headed neo-Objectivist good old boys want to slag us? Let's do the math the other way: Canadian population as of today is 33,720,337 X $3,395 extra health care expenditures if we adopted the US system = $114,480,547,510 in potential profits to be had on the backs of sick Canadians.
(NB: I was referencing the republicans who are insulting us, not americans in general...)
 

Ava999

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Nothing in life is free, unless of course you want to offer you services as a pharmacist in the future for nothing. Didn't think so.
For your information the government pays you. If you watched the movie SICKO you would know. In Britain the government pays the doctors extra, if they can get their patients to be more healthy (like stop smoking, and losing weight). Therefore you get payed for your services and everyone is happy. So yea, I do think so.
 

Ava999

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i don't think sicko did a fair job in showing cuba's healthcare system. From what I've read it seems they have a two tier system, the wealthy vs. the poor.
Cuba's system is great if you are rich or some kind of foreign diplomat, but the poor in Cuba have terrible healthcare. I've read of stories of patients being forced to bring their own supplies for their hospitalization. And don't get me started on the government promoting abortions in order to keep the infant mortality rate down...

I recommend the frontline documentary "Sick Around the World"
Other than the Cuba issue, I think the movie gave me a fair glimpse on what Universal Healthcare is like in other countries compared to the U.S
 

solzont

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It's very easy to say "I want universal healthcare," without actually defining that specifically nebulous term. Obama's administration and congress has, in my mind, failed. Their solution neglects to incorporate two of the most important components of sustainable, affordable healthcare; patient accountability and strong incentives for preventative medicine practices. The millions of Americans that insist on turning a blind eye to their wanton and careless lifestyle choices are driving the diabetes and heart disease epidemics. Yet the supporters of this legislation refuse to hold individuals accountable for their gross negligence. The audacity of Obama's plan is that you, the mindful health-conscious citizen, will be held accountable for these schleps. It's a travesty that our "healthcare reform" includes no substantial, enforceable tenets of patient accountability for self-care nor physician incentive to reduce spending on unnecessary procedures or seriously engage in preventative medicine as the foundation of health care.

No, this isn't a vote for the Republican plan; either way is settling for failure. Nothing has changed, money and lobbyists rule the Hill.
 
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Praziquantel86

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For your information the government pays you. If you watched the movie SICKO you would know. In Britain the government pays the doctors extra, if they can get their patients to be more healthy (like stop smoking, and losing weight). Therefore you get payed for your services and everyone is happy. So yea, I do think so.
You're basing your entire opinion on the matter off of a Michael Moore movie? I sincerely hope this is not the case.

If the British NHS is so wonderful, why are dental patients resorting to removing their own teeth for lack of a dentist to do it for them? Why are wait times for life-saving (yet not emergent) procedures like angioplasty measured in not days, but weeks or months? Likewise, simple preventative care is backed up for months, if not years.

Another harping point of Moore's is the wonderful world of the French. Tax dollars to pay for a full-time nanny? Obscene. 30 hour work weeks? I would go crazy with boredom. Everytime someone gets the French to try to do something, they go on strike about it. When my tax dollars go to pay for laze and ineptitude (more than they already are, I live in New York) like that, I'm up and moving.

It's fine that you support universal healthcare, as long as you have a better reason than some fat schmuck with an agenda up his ass telling you to do it.
 

powertoold

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Their solution neglects to incorporate two of the most important components of sustainable, affordable healthcare; patient accountability and strong incentives for preventative medicine practices. The millions of Americans that insist on turning a blind eye to their wanton and careless lifestyle choices are driving the diabetes and heart disease epidemics.
Honestly, I don't think the goal of this reform is to make America healthier; it may be a secondary goal of the reform, but the primary goal is to reduce costs to have more insured Americans and solve the ridiculous growth of health care costs. With the current system, costs will continue to rise until we won't be able to sustain it any more, so there needs to be a solution.
 

Rockinacoustic

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For your information the government pays you. If you watched the movie SICKO you would know. In Britain the government pays the doctors extra, if they can get their patients to be more healthy (like stop smoking, and losing weight). Therefore you get payed for your services and everyone is happy. So yea, I do think so.
I encourage you to get your information from more than one point of view; I have no seen SICKO nor do I plan to- I'll get my information from less sensationalized sources thank you.

Sure Europe's health care system is great, but how much are people sacrificing in service to allow greater coverage? For ever successful story Michael Moore sensationalizes, there's another where a patient had to wait a year for a transplant, or 5+ hours to see a doctor. How much do these people pay in taxes? Are they actually getting their money's worth?

Healthcare does not need the half-asses public plan that Obama is trying to push through. It does not address any of the real problems that make healthcare costs so high to begin with, like astronomical malpractice lawsuits, free healthcare to illegals, and the insane tuition to attend medical schools. The CBO has even stated that the current plan will not decrease costs, but rather keep them the same or worse from what we have now.
 

Kirbypuff

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I am sick of seeing people come in in the pharmacy on welfare with fake tits, chemical peels, and new SUVs for there 100 kids from different fathers, and then complain about their 2 dollar copay; when the rest is paid for by my hard work and tax dollars. screw them; health care shouldn't be free or shouldn't be a right, its a responsiblity and a privlege.
I'm 100% For Medicaid, but I also agree with you 100%. By screw them, I know you mean people who abuse free healthcare, not those who actually need it. I recently had an obese patient eating 2 bags of chips while waiting for $4000 worth of medicine and she had a LV bag, keys to a BMW, and had diamonds on her finger, earrings, necklace and eyeglasses... and she was using Medicaid. I freakin kid you not. Goodness gracious, at least she didn't try to fight paying for her $3 copay or I would've started breaking things. Roar.
 

Passion4Sci

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I'm 100% For Medicaid, but I also agree with you 100%. By screw them, I know you mean people who abuse free healthcare, not those who actually need it. I recently had an obese patient eating 2 bags of chips while waiting for $4000 worth of medicine and she had a LV bag, keys to a BMW, and had diamonds on her finger, earrings, necklace and eyeglasses... and she was using Medicaid. I freakin kid you not. Goodness gracious, at least she didn't try to fight paying for her $3 copay or I would've started breaking things. Roar.
Was she eating out of two open bags at the same time? What flavors? Just wondering, I haven't had chips in so long !
 

Old Timer

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I encourage you to get your information from more than one point of view; I have no seen SICKO nor do I plan to- I'll get my information from less sensationalized sources thank you.

Sure Europe's health care system is great, but how much are people sacrificing in service to allow greater coverage? For ever successful story Michael Moore sensationalizes, there's another where a patient had to wait a year for a transplant, or 5+ hours to see a doctor. How much do these people pay in taxes? Are they actually getting their money's worth?

Healthcare does not need the half-asses public plan that Obama is trying to push through. It does not address any of the real problems that make healthcare costs so high to begin with, like astronomical malpractice lawsuits, free healthcare to illegals, and the insane tuition to attend medical schools. The CBO has even stated that the current plan will not decrease costs, but rather keep them the same or worse from what we have now.
First of all please explain your sources? Here is the question you need to answer. Why is it the United States spends more money as a percentage of GDP or on a per capita basis than any other country in the world. At the same time we have worse outcomes than other countries who have a single payer or mixed system? We should be healthier and have better outcomes if we spend more money? And in those other countries that spend less, they cover everyone and we don't.

I'll take a government plan over an industry plan. The insurance industry has ruined the medical system we have built. They have commoditized (sp?) the entire health care system. That';s why retail is all production. You need volume to make a living.

For every case you can point out about waiting lines in other countries, we have them here. Try to get an appointment for a specialist, you can wait months, in the USA.

The real problem is two fold. The people who consume the service do not pay for the service and therefore are willing to demand more and more expensive services from the system whether they are needed or not. Second, as technology has driven up the price of health care none of our leaders is willing to have the conversation about cost control.

Our system is broken. Health care costs will destroy the country as we know it. Neither party is offering anything that will adjust the problem.
 

StaviZFingerZ

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My serious reply of the day.

Before we address the healthcare reform proposed by the democrats, let's ask the following 3 questions.

1. What are the issues and major problems of American healthcare system today?
2. How will the proposed healthcare reform solve these problems?
3. Who will fund the solution and how will the US government get the money from the fund source?

Is it as simple as tax the rich and pay for the poor?

The proposed goals of the reform includes decrease everyone's healthcare cost, increase everyone's healthcare quality, provide healthcare to everyone, everyone can choose their own doctors, it will not limit medical provider pay, and it will not mirco-manage anyone's healthcare decisions.

Well, it sounds great. But can anyone tell me how this will be accomplished?

I eagerly await your response.
 

Old Timer

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My serious reply of the day.

Before we address the healthcare reform proposed by the democrats, let's ask the following 3 questions.

1. What are the issues and major problems of American healthcare system today?
2. How will the proposed healthcare reform solve these problems?
3. Who will fund the solution and how will the US government get the money from the fund source?

Is it as simple as tax the rich and pay for the poor?

The proposed goals of the reform includes decrease everyone's healthcare cost, increase everyone's healthcare quality, provide healthcare to everyone, everyone can choose their own doctors, it will not limit medical provider pay, and it will not mirco-manage anyone's healthcare decisions.

Well, it sounds great. But can anyone tell me how this will be accomplished?

I eagerly await your response.
It can do all of them except:

it will not limit medical provider pay
it will not mirco-manage anyone's healthcare decisions.

The trouble is at least with a government plan they are attempting to do this based on what's appropraite treatment. With our present system, they attempt to limit provider pay and they micro-manage health care decisions in order to increase their profits. If we eliminate insurance companies, there will be the 30% of premiums spent on non-treatment.

The system is so f*c*e* up what we really need is to re-boot and start over. Ok Z-man. How would you reform health care?
 

StaviZFingerZ

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Dude,

If I knew how to reform the US healthcare, do you think I'll be sitting here doing what I'm doing?

I do believe the US healthcare provides the best care in the world to who can afford it. Should we borrow the phrase from one of my favorite movies "History of the World Part I" and say "F**k the Poor?"

Oh wait...it's not the poor who has issues with access to healthcare. It's the underinsured working class...

I don't know.

I think the biggest problem is the US Budget deficit due to our SS system. I think Medicare/Medicaid and the Defense is the bulk of our expenditures. Somebody has to pay for it.

I don't have an answer. At the same time, I don't have issues with our healthcare system at this time. I do hav issues with the FDA and the way Pharma is practiced in the US.
 

Praziquantel86

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I don't think any legitimate progress can be made without limiting Med-Mal payments. With premiums in the tens of thousands of dollars every year, cutting physician reimbursement is untenable. Limiting malpractice payments, and perhaps instituting some sort of tuition forgiveness to physicians would make a paycut a much less bitter pill to swallow.

Current proposals leave tort reform out of the picture and avoid eliminating defensive medicine as the standard of care. That alone would cut incredible amounts of unnecessary tests and procedures off of the Medicare bankroll and free up money for those who need it most.
 

StaviZFingerZ

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I don't fully understand the broken system of the US healthcare. But here is the graphical illustration of what's causing the downfall of the US healthcare system. We can't afford it. That's the problem.

Defense, Medicare/Medicaid/welfare, and Deficit interest are bankrupting the US.

 

StaviZFingerZ

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How about this. Give me an example of an efficient, well-run State/Federal program.

Now tell me how on Earth they'd do better at controlling healthcare.

good one.
 

Pharmavixen

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How about this. Give me an example of an efficient, well-run State/Federal program.

Now tell me how on Earth they'd do better at controlling healthcare.
I've worked in the public and private sectors, and both can be badly-run, depending on the individuals in charge of specific departments/companies.

My worst job ever was at a drugstore managed by a woman who was the wife of a vice-president of Canada's largest drugstore chain. This guy was a valued member of the team, so they let him have this store for the little wifey to run into the ground as she liked; her management style was screaming abuse at staff; she had a gambling addiction, and would take off on junkets to Vegas, after stealing hundreds of dollars out of the tills; her 4 year old would run behind the pharmacy counter and pull counting trays full of pills onto his head (she had trouble retaining nannies for some reason). And on and on I could go about how awful it was.

These days I work in government, and though some of my coworkers are idiots, none of us could get away with the abuses of power I saw in 16 years in the private sector.

Just my $0.02.
 

Praziquantel86

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I've worked in the public and private sectors, and both can be badly-run, depending on the individuals in charge of specific departments/companies.

My worst job ever was at a drugstore managed by a woman who was the wife of a vice-president of Canada's largest drugstore chain. This guy was a valued member of the team, so they let him have this store for the little wifey to run into the ground as she liked; her management style was screaming abuse at staff; she had a gambling addiction, and would take off on junkets to Vegas, after stealing hundreds of dollars out of the tills; her 4 year old would run behind the pharmacy counter and pull counting trays full of pills onto his head (she had trouble retaining nannies for some reason). And on and on I could go about how awful it was.

These days I work in government, and though some of my coworkers are idiots, none of us could get away with the abuses of power I saw in 16 years in the private sector.

Just my $0.02.
It's an awful lot harder to get rid of problem employees in the public sector. You're example, however unfortunate, would likely never have happened without that significant personal connection.

Civil service employees are almost impossible to get rid of, even with due cause blaring you in the face. For an extremely over-the-top example, read the biography of Robert Moses.
 

Old Timer

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How about this. Give me an example of an efficient, well-run State/Federal program.

Now tell me how on Earth they'd do better at controlling healthcare.
Medicare is run better than any private plan. They spend a lesser percentage of their money on administrative costs than any private plan. Before Medicare was enacted, the largest percentage of the population in poverty was seniors. That is no longer the case. Medicare is a success story, not a failure. Look back at all of the predictions about what Medicare would do to the Health Care System. As Yogi Berra would say, "It's Dejavu all over again."

Social Security: Don't discuss policy, that is set by the 535 mow-rons in the House and Senate. They deliver checks with brutal efficiency. Low overhead and excellent customer service.

Here is the question you need to answer. Why is it the United States spends more money as a percentage of GDP or on a per capita basis than any other country in the world. At the same time we have worse outcomes than other countries who have a single payer or mixed system? We should be healthier and have better outcomes if we spend more money? And in those other countries that spend less, they cover everyone and we don't.

As for controlling costs, nobody can control costs until they come clean with the American people. We consume more health care than we can afford and we consume the health care in an extremely inefficient manner. The idea that government = bad and private sector = good is really simplistic jingoism that doesn't really get to the heart of the problem.

And tort reform does have to be in the mix. Everything has to be in the mix. But we better come to grips with this soon. You know how the system is broken:

4 oz of Clobetsaol Solution for dermatitis of the scalp....$71.98
4 oz Clobex Shampoo for dermatitis of the scalp...........$303.94

How can health insurance companies deal with this? This is a pure and total rip off.....
 

Rockinacoustic

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First of all please explain your sources? Here is the question you need to answer. Why is it the United States spends more money as a percentage of GDP or on a per capita basis than any other country in the world. At the same time we have worse outcomes than other countries who have a single payer or mixed system? We should be healthier and have better outcomes if we spend more money? And in those other countries that spend less, they cover everyone and we don't.
There's are many holes in the arguments comparing foreign healthcare plans to ours. First of all the demographics of our country, let alone our population far exceed any other reputable country's. Take a look at this link for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared#Malpractice_litigation It reverts back to my original argument of how malpractice lawsuits have driven up health care costs. We pay an average of four times as much in malpractice litigation per person than Canada. As for outcomes, I think that's entirely dependent on the society within the country. Of course I'd expect better outcomes from Japan and France where their diets and lifestyles are less destructive than ours. Regardless, we have the best treatment that money can buy. Whether it's a sad truth or something to be proud of is another story.

I'll take a government plan over an industry plan. The insurance industry has ruined the medical system we have built. They have commoditized (sp?) the entire health care system. That';s why retail is all production. You need volume to make a living.
We could get into a philosophical argument about whether Healthcare is a commodity or a right and go on ad infinitum. Let's not.

For every case you can point out about waiting lines in other countries, we have them here. Try to get an appointment for a specialist, you can wait months, in the USA.
True but that still doesn't solve anything.

The real problem is two fold. The people who consume the service do not pay for the service and therefore are willing to demand more and more expensive services from the system whether they are needed or not. Second, as technology has driven up the price of health care none of our leaders is willing to have the conversation about cost control.
Agreed. There is such an entitlement mentality that you can get something without having to work for it in this country. The housing bubble was the first to make people fall on their face, and now the dark shadow of healthcare casts upon us. It upsets me when people complain about their $5 co-pay on their 6 prescriptions. They honestly don't understand how well they have it.

Our system is broken. Health care costs will destroy the country as we know it. Neither party is offering anything that will adjust the problem.
I agree. I am not a defender of out current system, but nowhere near a proponent of our current proposal, let alone Government run healthcare.
 

Kirbypuff

Worldling
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Oct 12, 2008
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Was she eating out of two open bags at the same time? What flavors? Just wondering, I haven't had chips in so long !
haha I don't remember if she ate them simultaneously or not, I think one of them was Munchos and other other was Crackerjacks? ugh I haven't had chips in a while either. I do remember she asked me to throw the bags out for her. :hungover: I felt indignant a bit.. there I was working my ass off, paying my taxes, resisting junk food, no free healthcare, no bling, no Bimmer, no LV bag, throwing out her freakin garbage for the junk food which causes her to take the meds which I work to dispense to her and pay for the taxes which pay for her meds so that she can save up her money for her LV bag and her Bimmer. AGHHHHHH.
 

WVUPharm2007

imagine sisyphus happy
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Nah, we just need to give up. This **** isn't ever going to get solved. All of the politicians with power make decisions based upon ideology rather than any sort of interpretation of reality. It's what happens when people start with the conclusion, then make interpretations of how **** is based upon how well said **** fits the conclusion they already came up with.

I've conceded defeat. We're all ****ed as long as the Democrats or Republicans have power. And if they didn't have the power, we had the even more stupid Libertarians or Marxists take over...gee, that'd sure go over well.

Now let's do something constructive. Let's invade Saudi Arabia, take back all of our t-bills, and hit the reset button on our debt.

Who's with me!
 

doublestufforeo

10+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2009
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LOL... I for one want Universal Health care, and I encourage others to watch a Michael Moore film called SICKO, it makes you see just how good Universal Health care is, and how health care should be free. It's not like you ask to be sick, so why pay to get better?

Well that makes absolutely no sense at all. Just because you didn't ask to get sick doesn't make it all of a sudden the gov't's fault or responsibility to pay for it. It's like saying "I didn't ask to be born with a crooked nose....so getting plastic surgery for it should be free!, I didn't ask to be poor so houses should be free! I didn't ask to be paralyzed so prosthetics should be free...I didn't ask to break my arm, so the doctor should fix it for free! I didn't ask for my house to be blown away in a hurricane so YOU should buy me a new house...." the list goes on and on! We have Medicaid for those who can't afford treatment!! Why do we need a government imposed health care system!! UGh...I'm so sick of people saying "we want universal healthcare its so good.."
 

Praziquantel86

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Well that makes absolutely no sense at all. Just because you didn't ask to get sick doesn't make it all of a sudden the gov't's fault or responsibility to pay for it. It's like saying "I didn't ask to be born with a crooked nose....so getting plastic surgery for it should be free!, I didn't ask to be poor so houses should be free! I didn't ask to be paralyzed so prosthetics should be free...I didn't ask to break my arm, so the doctor should fix it for free! I didn't ask for my house to be blown away in a hurricane so YOU should buy me a new house...." the list goes on and on! We have Medicaid for those who can't afford treatment!! Why do we need a government imposed health care system!! UGh...I'm so sick of people saying "we want universal healthcare its so good.."
That cuts to the heart of the debate: is healthcare a privilege or a right. If it is a right, then the government should do all it can to protect it. If it is a privilege, then the government's role is less clear.
 

tbone444

5+ Year Member
Aug 3, 2009
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Medicare is run better than any private plan. They spend a lesser percentage of their money on administrative costs than any private plan. Before Medicare was enacted, the largest percentage of the population in poverty was seniors. That is no longer the case. Medicare is a success story, not a failure. Look back at all of the predictions about what Medicare would do to the Health Care System. As Yogi Berra would say, "It's Dejavu all over again."

Social Security: Don't discuss policy, that is set by the 535 mow-rons in the House and Senate. They deliver checks with brutal efficiency. Low overhead and excellent customer service.

Here is the question you need to answer. Why is it the United States spends more money as a percentage of GDP or on a per capita basis than any other country in the world. At the same time we have worse outcomes than other countries who have a single payer or mixed system? We should be healthier and have better outcomes if we spend more money? And in those other countries that spend less, they cover everyone and we don't.

As for controlling costs, nobody can control costs until they come clean with the American people. We consume more health care than we can afford and we consume the health care in an extremely inefficient manner. The idea that government = bad and private sector = good is really simplistic jingoism that doesn't really get to the heart of the problem.

And tort reform does have to be in the mix. Everything has to be in the mix. But we better come to grips with this soon. You know how the system is broken:

4 oz of Clobetsaol Solution for dermatitis of the scalp....$71.98
4 oz Clobex Shampoo for dermatitis of the scalp...........$303.94

How can health insurance companies deal with this? This is a pure and total rip off.....
Old Timer,
Name one government run system that has been successful. For example, do you think people would invest in social sucurity if it were voluntary? Do you think people who have the means to afford private school for their children would still send their kids to public schools? Do you think Ted Keenedy and Chris Dodd are going to wait in line at the district hospital for their treatment? Most of us know that medicare part D is disaster and is going to go bankrupt in a few years.
Sure, the insurance industry sucks, but at least you can change plans if you don't like a particular one. If we have a government run health care plan, that's it, we're stuck with it. Employers will have no incentive to give their employees an insurance plan because the government will penalize them.
 

Old Timer

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May 16, 2007
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Old Timer,
Name one government run system that has been successful. For example, do you think people would invest in social sucurity if it were voluntary?
Like said, Social Security is a great American Success Story. You are obviously not old enough to remember what it was like nor have you studied American History. Before Social Security old age was a burden on families and the largest percentage of people in poverty were seniors and that is no longer true. Social Security is meant to supplement your retirement and prevent you from becoming impoverished.
Do you think people who have the means to afford private school for their children would still send their kids to public schools?
Are you for real. There are plenty of wealthy people who send their kids to private school, Not that this has anything to do with the Federal Government, it has to with State and Local governments. I guess your private school education didn't include non-sequiters or taught them as well as ey taught you history.


Do you think Ted Keenedy and Chris Dodd are going to wait in line at the district hospital for their treatment?
So what? The rich will always be able to more than than others n matter what the commodity. Again what does that have to with the subject at hand.

Most of us know that medicare part D is disaster and is going to go bankrupt in a few years.
Again, you show a woeful knowledge of the facts. Medicare part D is not separate from Medicare A and B. The reason Medicare is going broke is the funding is not keeping up with the income. That has nothing to do with efficiency or administration of the program.


Sure, the insurance industry sucks, but at least you can change plans if you don't like a particular one. If we have a government run health care plan, that's it, we're stuck with it. Employers will have no incentive to give their employees an insurance plan because the government will penalize them.
Where do you get your information from? Certainly not from any place with facts. Do you just make it up. First, most people get insurance from their employers and you have little or NO choice of plans. If you have a government run plan you can elect representatives who can change the plan. That's why we have elections. The guy who won the last election promised action on health care. You might not like the plan, but he is doing pretty much what he said. Third, employers have plenty of incentive to give insurance to their employees. It's tax deductible to the employer, it's means of keeping the employee happy so they won't change jobs, it keeps the employee healthy to they can show up and do their job. Fourth, the government will penalize employers who DO NOT give insurance, not those that offer the benefit.
 

tbone444

5+ Year Member
Aug 3, 2009
19
0
Here
Status
Pharmacist
Like said, Social Security is a great American Success Story. You are obviously not old enough to remember what it was like nor have you studied American History. Before Social Security old age was a burden on families and the largest percentage of people in poverty were seniors and that is no longer true. Social Security is meant to supplement your retirement and prevent you from becoming impoverished.

Are you for real. There are plenty of wealthy people who send their kids to private school, Not that this has anything to do with the Federal Government, it has to with State and Local governments. I guess your private school education didn't include non-sequiters or taught them as well as ey taught you history.



So what? The rich will always be able to more than than others n matter what the commodity. Again what does that have to with the subject at hand.


Again, you show a woeful knowledge of the facts. Medicare part D is not separate from Medicare A and B. The reason Medicare is going broke is the funding is not keeping up with the income. That has nothing to do with efficiency or administration of the program.




Where do you get your information from? Certainly not from any place with facts. Do you just make it up. First, most people get insurance from their employers and you have little or NO choice of plans. If you have a government run plan you can elect representatives who can change the plan. That's why we have elections. The guy who won the last election promised action on health care. You might not like the plan, but he is doing pretty much what he said. Third, employers have plenty of incentive to give insurance to their employees. It's tax deductible to the employer, it's means of keeping the employee happy so they won't change jobs, it keeps the employee healthy to they can show up and do their job. Fourth, the government will penalize employers who DO NOT give insurance, not those that offer the benefit.
Ok,
Are you serious? Social security is a loser! If social security is so great, why are you forced to have it drawn out of your check. So are you telling me if you had a choice you would rather invest in social security than a private investment?
The reason I brought up the point about Ted Keenedy and chris dodd is because they are two of the biggest advocates on univerisal health care. If they're plan is so good, why won't they participate in it? Yes, I understand the rich will have means to escape the system, but don't you think it's hypocritical for those that are pushing this plan, not participate in it?
The reason Medicare is going broke is the funding is not keeping up with the income. So what makes you think the funding is going to be kept up with univerisal health care?
The guy who won the last election promised action on health care. Where in United States Constitution does it say the President or federal government has a right to provide health care?
You're ad hominem arguments indicate that you're not seeing the big picture or reality of the situation.