Reputation of Medical School

[FloridaDoc]

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Does the reputation of a medical school matter in residency matches? I know this has been discussed many times, but i have yet to find a popular opinion.

Thanks

 

[IlDestriero]

This question has already been answered by the directors themselves.
Yes.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

 

[alwaysaangel]

The answer is yes but it really shouldn't factor into school choices of a pre-med.

For one, it matters much less than other things like step scores, class rank, letters of rec, interview, etc

Second, the definition of 'highly regarded medical school' is fluid and dependent on program director and faculty. Some may consider The US News rankings, but many others will consider 'highly regarded' based on the particular specialty at that school. (eg an EM program may not care if a school is top 20 but will care if their ED is highly regarded). Furthermore, there is a regional bias because a given program will know the faculty at local med schools and my frequently match their students and know they're good and will therefore be more likely to match those students.

So it is not important enough to significantly change a premeds choice in school and it's too hard for a premed to truly know which schools will be highly regarded by the programs they ultimately apply to.

 

[zaq]

.

 

[raynor123456]

Everything may be potentially evaluated when you're being considered as a residency candidate, as with everything else in life.

 

[boobelle]

Yes, but probably not the same "reputation" that most premeds (rather, SDN premeds) are obsessed with. *Clinical* reputation, faculty connections and prior success (or failure) of prior grads in that program are a big factor...all of which are not measured well by whatever is the current premed ranking list du jour.

 

[Frazier]

This question has already been answered by the directors themselves.
Yes.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Game, set, match.

 

[mauberley]

I'm not sure this is an appropriate poll to put in a pre-medical forum. A good amount of people here haven't finished undergrad yet.

I take it you're not familiar with how things work around here.

 

[maaza1]

I did not vote on your poll because I have no idea. This question would be better answered by current residents and/or Med students as some have already done so. I don't think the typical Pre-med (like myself) has enough insight to answer this question.

 

[zaq]

.

 

[mauberley]

Yeah you got me, I'm new. I have been lurking for a while though. I just think it's a very silly idea for a poll.

It is, especially because the survey linked to provides a credible answer to the question. I was more getting at the implication of your statement that this would be better posted in the allopathic forum, when topic appropriateness on SDN is based on who would be interested in the answer, not which audience is qualified to provide an answer. Once you're in med school, it's irrelevant whether one's school factors into residency matches as you're already locked into a particular institution. On the other hand, the question is very much of interest to applicants to medical schools, as the answer would affect the choice of schools to apply to. Keep in mind that there are med students, residents, and attendings that read pre-allo. Not many, but it is a positive, nonzero value.

 

[zaq]

.

 

[Tapepsi]

I think it depends on how "prestigious" said residency program is. Imo you should be able to match into any specialty you want (not necessarily the specific programs) regardless of which U.S. allopathic school you went to.

Although if you look at Penn State's 2011 match list, for being an unranked school (they don't participate in the US News), they had an awesome match this year.

 

[Narmerguy]

It is, especially because the survey linked to provides a credible answer to the question. I was more getting at the implication of your statement that this would be better posted in the allopathic forum, when topic appropriateness on SDN is based on who would be interested in the answer, not which audience is qualified to provide an answer. Once you're in med school, it's irrelevant whether one's school factors into residency matches as you're already locked into a particular institution. On the other hand, the question is very much of interest to applicants to medical schools, as the answer would affect the choice of schools to apply to. Keep in mind that there are med students, residents, and attendings that read pre-allo. Not many, but it is a positive, nonzero value.

Sadly, fewer and fewer seem to read pre-allo with the intent of dispensing information. Thus, all the appropriate threads are flooded with premeds that may or may not have a clue. I find that too often topic appropriateness is based on the status of the thread-starter, not just the audience that may find it interesting.

 

[FloridaDoc]

I should clarify my OP. I'm not looking to into anything ultra-competitive. I really want to go into EM and if I'm lucky, anesthesiology (yeah, i'll probably change my mind a few times in the next four years, but right now, this is what I want). So, I should rephrase my question: for the residencies with intermediate difficulty, does the school's reputation really matter?

 

[Dr Gerrard]

This question has already been answered by the directors themselves.
Yes.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

you are an attending, you would know best.

but do you really think going to a better school is worth more than AOA?

I mean I feel like the only schools that go above and beyond everything are Hopkins and Harvard... with UPenn creeping in. These schools are held at a completely different level than every other school.

But according to the survey, AOA, which I have seen cited so many times as a huge plus, is less important than going to a top 20 school.

And Step 2 being more important than Step 1?

I must be reading this wrong

 

[Onres]

I should clarify my OP. I'm not looking to into anything ultra-competitive. I really want to go into EM and if I'm lucky, anesthesiology (yeah, i'll probably change my mind a few times in the next four years, but right now, this is what I want). So, I should rephrase my question: for the residencies with intermediate difficulty, does the school's reputation really matter?

Do well and you can go into whatever you want, it may just not be at the most prestigious place, which is completely fine. You'll be the kind of doctor you want to be and have a good salary.

 

[Onres]

Second, the definition of 'highly regarded medical school' is fluid and dependent on program director and faculty. Some may consider The US News rankings, but many others will consider 'highly regarded' based on the particular specialty at that school. (eg an EM program may not care if a school is top 20 but will care if their ED is highly regarded). Furthermore, there is a regional bias because a given program will know the faculty at local med schools and my frequently match their students and know they're good and will therefore be more likely to match those students.

So it is not important enough to significantly change a premeds choice in school and it's too hard for a premed to truly know which schools will be highly regarded by the programs they ultimately apply to.

you are an attending, you would know best.

but do you really think going to a better school is worth more than AOA?

I mean I feel like the only schools that go above and beyond everything are Hopkins and Harvard... with UPenn creeping in. These schools are held at a completely different level than every other school.

But according to the survey, AOA, which I have seen cited so many times as a huge plus, is less important than going to a top 20 school.

And Step 2 being more important than Step 1?

I must be reading this wrong

Read the above, it varies. Yeah, everyone knows of Harvard, and JHU, but it doesn't mean those are the only ones considered prestigious or top programs. I know MUSC had a few people match into very prestigious programs this year, so it can be done. Stop worrying about it so much, just do well.

I think a lot of people voted that that prestige matters, because to say that it doesn't matter AT ALL, would be quite stupid. I don't think it's ALL that matters, it may just give you an edge.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I should clarify my OP. I'm not looking to into anything ultra-competitive. I really want to go into EM and if I'm lucky, anesthesiology (yeah, i'll probably change my mind a few times in the next four years, but right now, this is what I want). So, I should rephrase my question: for the residencies with intermediate difficulty, does the school's reputation really matter?

Same answer - yes but not in anyway that you can use to predict which school will serve you better come match time.

 

[Suncrusher]

you are an attending, you would know best.

but do you really think going to a better school is worth more than AOA?

I mean I feel like the only schools that go above and beyond everything are Hopkins and Harvard... with UPenn creeping in. These schools are held at a completely different level than every other school.

But according to the survey, AOA, which I have seen cited so many times as a huge plus, is less important than going to a top 20 school.

And Step 2 being more important than Step 1?

I must be reading this wrong

AOA is a factor 53% taken into account by residency directors, with school prestige being a factor taken into account by 54%. Of the 53% who take AOA into account, it is given an average emphasis of 3.2 on a scale of 1-5 compared to school prestige's 3.3 out of 5. I do not think that is a significant difference.

The same survey questions show that Step 2 is definitely NOT more important than Step 1, and 25% of residency directors don't even require a passing Step 2 score.

Back to the OP's question: school prestige matters to slightly over half of residency directors. That is a lower percentage of residency directors than most other factors except AOA, honors in basic science courses, Step 3 scores, visa status, research, and language fluency. Approx 26/34 (I did a rough count; it's probably not exactly correct) factors are taken into account by more residency directors than school prestige. And for those to whom it even matters, it is thought of as less important than everything except honors in basic science courses, AOA, Step 3 scores, language fluency, away rotations in the same specialty at other institutions, PS, research, and post-interview contact. Approx 28/44 factors are emphasized more than school prestige to those residency directors who take them into account.

Summary: as far as residencies go, there are a lot of things you need to worry about more than school prestige.

My question for any residents/attendings is this: Do you think that schools with a lot of prestige probably have other factors going for them such as long-standing connections with certain residency programs and letter-writing faculty who are more likely to be well-known/highly regarded by residency directors? Edit: nvm. Boobelle already answered this.

 

[Law2Doc]

This question has already been answered by the directors themselves.
Yes.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Well, if you actually read the survey you are citing, the answer is actually "Sort of", not a definitive yes. The PDs listed it as a factor in the survey, but put it VERY VERY low down on the list. The second or third lowest factor for each specialty. So low down, in fact that it may not even come up in the actual determination of a candidate and when it does, it ends up being more of an icing on the cake type factor rather than the cake itself. Honestly it probably won't come down to this factor. Things like step 1, connections/away rotations/networking and third year evals/grades will carry the day in 99% of circumstances. Only in pre-allo would something listed as a rather insignificant positive in a survey be elevated to being highly important. Now, game over.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
My question for any residents/attendings is this: Do you think that schools with a lot of prestige probably have other factors going for them such as long-standing connections with certain residency programs and letter-writing faculty who are more likely to be well-known/highly regarded by residency directors? ....

It's probably a wash. The big name places have big name faculty, and so a good word from them goes a long way. But the smaller name places perhaps tend to have faculty more accessible to students and more willing to actually write a non-form-letter LOR or pick up the phone on behalf of an applicant. So it may cut both ways. Also, since folks are going to do away rotations in competitive specialties, you are often going to rely on a letter or eval from a program other than your own anyhow, so who cares if you go to a program without a big name rad onc guy if you do an away rotation for a month with a big name rad onc guy who writes you a nice letter, and where the local PD gives you an interview after the faculty there say nice things about you.

A lot of the premed focus on prestige is misplaced. It was important in college. It becomes less important in med school, since there aren't as many med schools as colleges, and all are quite good. But that's hard to stomach for a premed because if you read pre-allo it's clear that there are some folks who feel like once they get into a good med school they have it made. In fact, this isn't a short climb, it's a mountain, and med school is base camp. You go to a better med school, your base camp may be a few dozen yards further up the hill. But what's a few dozen yards on Everest? Nothing really. And that's kind of the way it should be regarded. Step 1 is the biggest leg of the climb, so if you get some distance over your competitor climbers on that, then we can talk about having an advantage. But the difference between getting into a top 20 med school and a middle of the road med school? You are going to see plenty of climbers glide past you over the next 4 years like you didn't have a head start.

 

[mauberley]

Sadly, fewer and fewer seem to read pre-allo with the intent of dispensing information. Thus, all the appropriate threads are flooded with premeds that may or may not have a clue. I find that too often topic appropriateness is based on the status of the thread-starter, not just the audience that may find it interesting.

And even those who think they have a clue are probably just repeating what they read from a poster who doesn't have a clue.

 

[searun]

you are an attending, you would know best.

but do you really think going to a better school is worth more than AOA?

I mean I feel like the only schools that go above and beyond everything are Hopkins and Harvard... with UPenn creeping in. These schools are held at a completely different level than every other school.

But according to the survey, AOA, which I have seen cited so many times as a huge plus, is less important than going to a top 20 school.

And Step 2 being more important than Step 1?

I must be reading this wrong

Step 1 is significantly more important than Step 2, although in the last year or two many residency program directors in my field (a competitive surgical subspecialty) actually began considering Step 2 when they ranked the applicants who were interviewed.

 

[IlDestriero]

Well, if you actually read the survey you are citing, the answer is actually "Sort of", not a definitive yes. The PDs listed it as a factor in the survey, but put it VERY VERY low down on the list. The second or third lowest factor for each specialty. So low down, in fact that it may not even come up in the actual determination of a candidate and when it does, it ends up being more of an icing on the cake type factor rather than the cake itself. Honestly it probably won't come down to this factor. Things like step 1, connections/away rotations/networking and third year evals/grades will carry the day in 99% of circumstances. Only in pre-allo would something listed as a rather insignificant positive in a survey be elevated to being highly important. Now, game over.

I would disagree with your interpretation, however the question was "is it a factor?". The answer is yes for 54% of the programs. How much of a factor is unclear, but not much less than anything else, and more important than AOA. How about that? There are a lot of things that count less, and it varies by specialty.
You could say the whole survey is BS because about 1/2 the programs didn't respond.
Go to the best school you can, do well, write your own ticket. Stanford or Penn won't hurt.😉

 

[VincentAdultman]

I would disagree with your interpretation, however the question was "is it a factor?". The answer is yes for 58% of the programs. How much of a factor is unclear, but not much less than anything else, and more important than AOA. How about that?
You could say the whole survey is BS because about 1/2 the programs didn't respond.
Go to the best school you can, do well, write your own ticket.

Just go to the place where you'll be happiest for four years. That's what I'd do. If the name of your school does that for you, awesome.

 

[Law2Doc]

I would disagree with your interpretation, however the question was "is it a factor?". The answer is yes for 54% of the programs. How much of a factor is unclear, but not much less than anything else, and more important than AOA. How about that? There are a lot of things that count less, and it varies by specialty.
You could say the whole survey is BS because about 1/2 the programs didn't respond.
Go to the best school you can, do well, write your own ticket. Stanford or Penn won't hurt.😉

If you go deeper into that publication, you will see that they not only indicate "is it a factor" but also give "mean importance ratings". So no, it's not really unclear, IMHO.

As for half the programs not responding, I have to say that if you have done much research based on survey data you would realize that a response rate of a survey of this size above about 25% is deemed adequate for scientific purposes, and response rate greater than 30% is actually pretty phenomenal.

Going to a brand name certainly might "hurt" if the financial aid benefits make it much cheaper to go elsewhere and still end up at the same place at the end. I can point to quite a few current residents in various specialties where some went to state schools with lots of fin aid and owe about half of what their colleagues who went to a fancier schools with less benefits do. And they are at the same place. And nobody is going to care that one went to school X and the other went to school Y because they are both going to be residents who trained at Z.

 

[Law2Doc]

Just go to the place where you'll be happiest for four years. That's what I'd do. ...

Agreed. If you are happy, you do better. If you do better you go further. Won't matter from where you are starting (see my Everest analogy above).

As Pompacil suggests, some folks are so brainwashed about prestige that they won't be happy unless their sweatshirt has a certain school's name on it. So be it. They still have to prove themselves, but if this ego boost makes them do so, more power to them.

 

[IlDestriero]

If you go deeper into that publication, you will see that they not only indicate "is it a factor" but also give "mean importance ratings". So no, it's not really unclear, IMHO.

Of course it's not clear. Lets look at Anesthesiology.
What's the difference between a 3.5 on the rating for a highly regarded school and the 3.7 for a letter of rec from the department chair, and the 3.8 for the letter of rec from the program director, and the 4.1 for USMLE scores. It would seem that it carries a great deal of weight, nearly as much as a letter of recommendation from the chair of the department. I don't really believe that, but that's what this "clear" data suggests. Perhaps you should be advocating going to a top 10 medical school?