Reputation of undergrad school...

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by DrewFromVA, Oct 23, 2001.

  1. DrewFromVA

    DrewFromVA Member

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    First of all, is the reputation important? Secondly, how can one find out what reputation an undergrad school has in the med school community?
     
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  3. SocialistMD

    SocialistMD Resident Objectivist

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  4. E'01

    E'01 1K Member

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    Here comes the backlash: I beg to differ...I think it is important
     
  5. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    I NEVER thought I'd type this, but I agree with the socialist. It's not the school that's getting you in, it's your effort. Work hard at any school and you will be rewarded.

    CAPITALISM RULES! ;)
     
  6. girl

    girl Member

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    I agree with E'01... I think it does matter, with one caveat. It matters if you care where you will go to med school. Most undergrad schools will be fine for middle-level and your state schools (Californians, ignore this). However, if you have your heart set on some amazing med school (top 10), then it certainly matters where you go to undergrad. You can figure that out by looking at the composition of any of their first-year med school classes. For example, my brother is a 1st-year med student at Yale, and his class is absolutely packed with Harvard/Yale undergrads. Another thing I wish I had known before choosing a college is that med schools tend to "inbreed" their own students. So, if you know you want to go to Hopkins, JHU undergrad is a great place to be-- just look at how many of their own they take. Of course, what you do in your undergrad school is more important-- going to JHU undergrad gives you opportunities to work in JHU med labs, make contacts with JHU physicians, etc etc.

    Again, if you know you want to be a regular old clinician, and you have no desire to be at Harvard, then by all means, save the money and go to your state school for undergrad. You will not be disadvantaged overall as long as you stand out there.
     
  7. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    I disagree. I believe that most of the HYP undergrads that end up in top medical programs would be there regardless of where they did their undergrad studies.
     
  8. E'01

    E'01 1K Member

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    girl - you couldn't have said it better. My sentiments exactly. Yes effort is important but when you are looking at the top-tier medical schools, I believe that they do look at where at the undergrad you attended. I am not saying that non-ivy applicants do not get into top-tier med schools, but when you look at the breakdown of who matriculates, it's usually composed of a higher percentage of ivy grads. Ex: Columbia med has like half it's class coming from Harvard and Yale.
     
  9. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    You are attributing an acceptance to a top med school to the reputation of the undergrad institution, which I believe is wrong. Without the students at the HYP-caliber undergrad institutions, there would be no reputation. Students get into top med schools because they are talented, creative, intelligent, etc.... They don't get in merely because they attended a great undergrad. As I stated before, the highly motivated students who attend high caliber undergrads and med schools probably would have been accepted into their med schools without the "great" names attached to their resume.
     
  10. SnudgeMuffin

    SnudgeMuffin Senior Member

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    I think undergrad reputation matters to a certain extent. Medical schools will NOT look at a student from Harvard with 3.5 GPA same as someone with exactly the same GPA from a second tier school. I think that's why MCAT is there and SAT was there when you applied for colleges (too bad for me who suck at any standarized tests). Anyways, I guess what I am saying is if you are from a decent undergrad with a high GPA and performed better than or equal to an ivy student, I think you have a fair shot at any top medical schools regardless of where you are from.
     
  11. SMW

    SMW Grand Member

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    according to Gower, the pre-med advisor who posts here sometimes (but not much lately, where are you, Gower?) and whose information is rock-solid, undergraduate institution does matter, although schools are loathe to admit it.
     
  12. E'01

    E'01 1K Member

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    I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Look at the Columbia facebook - the stats are right there. Undergrad institutions make a difference. If you are a stellar candidiate AND in your words, are "talented, creative, intelligent, etc" and from a top undergrad, you'll have an edge other the other applicant who has the same above qualities but come from a non-ivy school.
     
  13. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

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    I think undergrad reputation matters but you are going to have to prove yourself no matter where you go.

    Also, I disagree with girl on the fact that if you want to go to a school's med school, you should go there for undergrad. This could not be farther from the truth at stanford. If you go to undergrad at Stanford, you have an extreme disadvantage at getting into its medical school...same thing with Harvard.
     
  14. jdub

    jdub Senior Member

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    from what i understand . . . which is very little mind you . . . good numbers at a great undergrad will definitely help somebody out (to what extent, well, someday some of us will be on some admission committees and we will know for sure then), but slightly below average and below average numbers at at great undergrad seem to put you right back into the pile.

    for example, if somebody has a 3.2 gpa overall and went to stanford, i think that an adcomm would be more focused on the fact that a 3.2 is below the average numbers than the fact that the person went to stanford.

    BUT, if somebody got a 3.5 or 3.6 or above and went to stanford, i think that an adcomm would see the average or above average gpa and think that the person has a decent gpa and then they would notice they went to stanford and they would be viewed as a higher caliber applicant than somebody who went to some small school and whom recieved the same stats.

    of course there are a lot more things to factor in, like mcat scores, research, and extracurriculars.

    i also am positive that anyone will outstanding numbers can get into harvard, yale, jhu, etc.
     
  15. mdaishik2001

    mdaishik2001 New Member

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    Well im fairly confident that undergrad reputation does count. especially in the top 25 schools and maybe top 50. Just look at the interview lists and accepted profile of their class. the schools represented are the ivys, berkeley, michigan, northwestern, upenn. I think if you are applying to an instate public med school and you are from any university in the state you may have a chance. But any private or out-state med school will certainly rank you second behinf the big schools. regardless of your stats. people who think that med schools are gonna take their time to read all the applications are in a fantasy world. the filters start with the MCAT, GPA, and strength of school. you have to factor the strength of the school b/c a 3.5 Ivy > 3.7 State School > 3.9 Community College
     
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  17. skelly99

    skelly99 Member

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    Reputation DOES matter, but it also DOES matter how you did in undergrad regardless of what school you attended.

    I had the opportunity to discuss this with a physician who sat on an adcom in NY for around 20 years and he said that many schools, especially those that use strict cut-off criteria in terms of GPAs, will weigh certain schools heavier than others depending on academics. That being said, it doesn't matter how much you weigh a 4.0 -- but it may matter to those of use who never got all A's...

    Cheers.
     
  18. Sir William Osler

    Sir William Osler Senior Member

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    commenting on what scoob said about harvard not accepting its own. I know for a fact that the class at harvard med is 1/4 filled with its own undergrads. its' not a big surprise though. i dont know about stanford though.
     
  19. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

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    Mr. Tbone pimp,

    One of my friends was told not to go to undergrad at harvard if she wanted a better chance to go to their medical school...That's all I am basing my harvard statement off of...

    For Stanford, they are a bunch of jerks if you went there for undergrad and want to go to their med school..ask lilycat...also, my cousin was a great applicant who got in almost everywhere but did not even get a secondary from stanford (she went there for undergrad)
     
  20. snowballz

    snowballz Senior Member

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    I think it matters...it is unfair, but it matters. It is especially unfair to those who did not care about high school, but excelled in college. There are many of those individuals, including me, who could have picked her nose for the rest of her life for a living and been happy...until I got had significant experience around academic medicine and such..and fell in love with it. I ,specifically, want to do academic medicine. Right now, I am in a school with zero research opportunities....but with a stellar GPA (4.0). I plan to transfer to Purdue (Indy campus) next year, because they do have research ops...plus, I have connections (if I care to utilize them) at IN U. Med Center/Riley Hospital..I may get some ops there, as well if I bug a few people.

    It sucks being at a liberal arts college because science programs are usually very weak..the math and physics programs at my school are virtually non existent.

    For the record, I am Indiana State. (bleh)

    Alicia
     
  21. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    As you can tell from the info I have provided, I attend the University of Florida. In high school, I applied to only 3 schools (now that I'm applying to med school, this looks like such a small #). Ok, so Hopkins kicked me to the curb. Emory and UF, however, accepted me. I've had the opportunity to visit Emory, and can't imagine it having as many research opportunities as UF. Sure, they have the CDC, but what's the liklihood that I would be able to work there?! I guess it is difficult for me to swallow claims that most state schoolers are at a disadvantage. UF is a monster university, and all that I need is at my fingertips. Did I make such a horrible decision in choosing UF over Emory?!? I don't think I did. Yes, I realize Emory is not the greatest. I didn't apply to the greatest, so I have no idea what COULD have been. I know what WOULD have been...I would have chose UF!

    Med school is a whole different story. I probably will choose Emory if given the opportunity to decide beteen the two.

    It's funny reading the info from each of you. You can see a distinct correlation between opinion and school attended. I guess we're all using our defense mechanisms.
     
  22. girl

    girl Member

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    I don't think "defense mechanism" is the right term. We all made decisions about college because we believed that the schools we chose would give us the best education (or we didn't get into a better school, or we couldn't afford a better school). So of course everybody's opinion is reflected in the school they chose. I don't think any of us need to defend our decisions, but I also don't think we should use our decisions to bias the facts. I completely agree that at a "monster" state school like UF, you probably had every research/other opportunity possible. I'll bet you took advantage of those opportunities and made yourself an excellent candidate for med school-- for that I commend you. However, I urge you to look at any top 10 school's accepted/matriculated list and tell me how many students are from UF, or any similar school. Then compare that number to the number from Harvard and Yale alone.

    I'm not saying the system is fair. I find it especially unfair to those students who couldn't afford $30 grand a year for college (which, incidentally, is MOST of America). But, the unfortunate fact is that it matters tremendously to those top 10 schools whether or not you're "one of their own."

    Maybe when we're all older and on admissions committees, we'll be able to help change the system... maybe...
     
  23. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    Ok, I don't know if I am hurting my case, but here goes.

    Between 1996 and 2000, UF students MATRICULATED as follows:

    1) Hopkins - 5
    2) Harvard - 0
    3) Duke - 2
    4) U. Penn. - 2
    5) Wash - 1
    6) Columbia - 2
    7) UCSF - 1
    8) Yale - 4
    9) Stanford - 0
    10) U. Mich. - 2

    TOTAL - 19

    That's not too fabulous, but you have to remember that UF is only one of MANY schools with less prestige than "the big guns".

    The info one can dig up when avoiding inorganic studies! Hard base/Soft acid...who cares! ;)
     
  24. snowballz

    snowballz Senior Member

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    I think I am in the minority here...

    I did not choose my undergrad so as to give me the best education. I had to choose who would actually take me. I was a gamble for any institution. High GED score (my score was like a 38 MCAT, no studying..so I do well on standardized tests? ), no SAT or ACT. I had to prove myself...I did with a 4.0 GPA!

    Alicia
     
  25. stercel2007

    stercel2007 Member

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    I was wondering baout th elast post....what would someone think of a student from Carnegie Mellon?
     
  26. Pneumo

    Pneumo Member

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    Shame on me for wasting precious time on this highly speculative thread. Anyhow, I would just like to say that I go to a no name school and was accepted to a "Top Ten" (whatever that means) medical school four days after interviewing. I think I have a distinct advantage over others precisely because I come from a no name school. University of Michigan can only take so many students from the name-brand schools, while they only have one student from my school to consider.

    Cheers!
     
  27. vivekap2007

    vivekap2007 cowtown indo hornet

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    When I interviewed at Baylor they gave us evaluation forms that we were to give our interviewers. One of the evaluation points on the form was something like caliber or reputation of undergraduate school. So I'm sure it gets taken into consideration, at least at some schools. As for how much it matters...
     
  28. Thewonderer

    Thewonderer Senior Member

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    For doubters who think that name of a school does NOT matter at top 10 med schools.....

    Imagine at Yale med entering class of 2003 where 16 out of 100 kids went to Yale undergrad. Say, hypothetically that we turned back the clock a few years, and out of those 16 kids, 5 of them actually wanted to save $$$ way back then and had instead gone to their state schools: U of Kansas, SUNY Stony Brook, U of Connecticut, Reutgers, and U of Alabama. Assume that they all become top students there! However, forward another 3-4 years and they all apply to Yale med. Now, look at Yale med's roster carefully....what is the likelihood that all 5 of them would get to Yale med this year? Almost none. I might see one Reutgers student every couple years, but I might not see a student from U of Kansas or U of Alabama for 5-10 years!


    The rumor about it being harder to get into one's med schools as an undergrad there is...well...purely "rumor." It is easier to get into Columbia med if you are an undergrad @ Columbia, etc etc etc. However, being a highschool kid, it is stupid to choose an undergrad based on its med school. Because, who knows, you might hate that area where the undergrad and med school are located at? Or you might want to change your scenery and go to a different med school? Or you might want to save some $$$ and go to your state med school instead.... Or you might hear horror story about the med school from the med students and wants to get the hell out of there......There are numerous reasons why choosing undergrad based on its med school does not make sense at all (this does not apply to cornell where the undergrad is in Ithaca and the med school is in NYC).
     
  29. Raptor

    Raptor Found one

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    I will be one of those people that do agree that it is important to ADCOM which undergraduate program you attend. I wish I had know about this because I would had made the best grades and went to a brand name school. I feel that I am at a great disadvangtage because I go to a no name school (One of the University of South Carolina branch). :( but like my signature says...
     
  30. rjmst

    rjmst Banned
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    I go to Drexel University. Is Yale going to kick me to the curb Do-wa-diddy style?
     
  31. BananaSplit

    BananaSplit Senior Member

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    >>Between 1996 and 2000, UF students MATRICULATED as follows:

    1) Hopkins - 5
    2) Harvard - 0
    3) Duke - 2
    4) U. Penn. - 2
    5) Wash - 1
    6) Columbia - 2
    7) UCSF - 1
    8) Yale - 4
    9) Stanford - 0
    10) U. Mich. - 2

    TOTAL - 19<<
    Adding to the speculation
    Stats for Berkeley for 1997-2000 (grain of salt: Berkeley has a huge class, so of course these numbers are higher).

    1) Hopkins - 10
    2) Harvard - 6
    3) Duke - 9
    4) U. Penn. - 8
    5) Wash - 17
    6) Columbia - 11
    7) UCSF - 40 (<--this number is a bit inflated because UCSF has to take mostly cali residents)
    8) Yale - 3
    9) Stanford - 12 (of those accepted, only three went. Maybe rivalry does count. ^_^ or they just got into other "better" less expensive schools)
    10) U. Mich. - 24

    Total: 140

    BananaSplit
     
  32. jwin

    jwin Senior Member

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    WASH U MATRICULANTS--1995-2000 (LONGER TIME, BUT SMALLER CLASSES THAN BERKELY AND UF)

    1) Hopkins - 15
    2) Harvard - 7
    3) Duke - 4
    4) U. Penn. -3
    5) Wash - 79
    6) Columbia -3
    7) UCSF - 6
    8) Yale - 6
    9) Stanford -7
    10) U. Mich. - 5
     
  33. rjmst

    rjmst Banned
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    where are you people getting these stats? also, will yale laugh in my face when i send them a Drexel University transcript?
     
  34. Lancer_VII

    Lancer_VII Member

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    My school's (prestigious liberal arts college) published stats say that 97% of all applicants from the school get accepted.

    But I have also been told by my advisor (and also a former adcom member) that my below average GPA and MCATs will hurt me a great deal, unless I was URM or came from a state that had less competitive public schools.
     
  35. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member

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    No, they won't laugh. It depends on the people too! The only controlling factor for these stats is that they went to UF and Berkeley. But we're not matching these people for anything else. The selective process that affects going to UF or Berkeley also comes into play for med schools. If you're a strong applicant from Drexel, you have a chance. :)
     
  36. nero

    nero Senior Member

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    If they laugh at you, they'll have a field day with my school which isn't even in the rankings this year, but was a 4th tier private school with the lowest academic reputation of all the schools US NEWS reported in 2000.............i think 1.8 or something like that was our ranking...........i can imagine them seeing my school's name and all laughing hysterically at my app..........nightmares......


    nero
     
  37. pbehzad

    pbehzad Faddayy

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    CMU is a quality school, i think it definitely has a name, and i think you would be competitive for those top 10 schools. CMU is one of those schools that is right under ivy-league, similar to emory, wash u, rochester, etc.
    Now to the person that said opportunities are not at emory, i believe it was the instigator, i dont think you know what the hell you are talking about. I go to emory, and UF may be big a$$ school and may have a quality med school and immense research opportunities, but emory has so many things UF could never imagine. Do i even have to mention the CDC, how many people can actually say they worked at the CDC. That is extremely impressive to put on your application, CDC or NIH are very impressive. CDC is not as hard to work as you think, if you really want to work you will get a postion there. Also UF is in gainesville, a town of what less than 100,000. nothing comparable to Atl. Emory has volunteer/research opportunities throughout the entire city of atlanta. State of GA research labs are extremley close to campus.
    Emorys med school is top 20, and is on campus, and research thrives here. I dont mean to hate but Emorys reputation is known to be a lot more demanding and competitive especially is premed program than UF (dont mean to be condescending), i mean there is a reason emory is ranked 18th in the nation. Now i may be goin out on a limb here, but i can honestly think that goin to a state school would be 10x easier than goin to a school like emory, duke, wash u, etc. Well this post is way to long, and i didnt mean to offend anyone. please dont take anything personal, its just my .02 :D
     
  38. rjmst

    rjmst Banned
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  39. Fr0g

    Fr0g Junior Member

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    Hmmm, so would this whole "State school vs Ivy league school" affect URMs as badly? Just curious....
     
  40. BananaSplit

    BananaSplit Senior Member

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    <<5) Wash - 79>>

    Wow! You guys must really like your own students!
     
  41. souljah1

    souljah1 Attending

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    In my class of 141, there are 22 berkeley alum and 28 (or something around there) stanford alum. that is more than a third of the class. I was really surprised at how many classmates of mine (including myself) went to one of those two schools.
     
  42. TalkAboutIslam

    TalkAboutIslam Junior Member

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    why surprised ???
     
  43. athena21

    athena21 Senior Member

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    post padder! i've been reading so many threads with one liners that, a lot of the time, don't make sense!!!

    :p :p
     
  44. BananaSplit

    BananaSplit Senior Member

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    I'm not too surprised. UCSF accepts 80% (is this right?) in-state students. Cal and Stanfurd are the two of the best schools in CA...and many of us have Bay Area roots, meaning we're more likely to stick around and actually practice medicine here, so why not take lots of us? Plus the applicants from these schools are remarkably strong. I hope the trend continues (I know, it's a bit selfish of me).

    BananaSplit
     
  45. i agreee ;)
     
  46. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2002.html

    Look at the 2002 edition.

    Total Research National Rank (pg. 37):
    UF = 25th
    Emory = 43rd

    Federal research national rank and endowment national rank for Emory are both very high (higher than those for UF), but UF still conducts more research.

    Though I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure these numbers for UF are accurate (I personally know the people responsible for collecting them).

    I wasn't knocking Emory. I'd have gone if I had a large nest egg to fry and didn't have a free ride to UF.

    Your notion that Emory (or other schools) is 10X more difficult is absurd. I'd have to say that Emory's rep is only marginally better than that of UF.

    Anyway, I can't believe this dead horse is still being kicked. The previous posts on this thread were from my undergrad years. I don't often check this site with med school and all, but I was surprised to see this one return.

    :D Gotta love the Gators! What can I say? ;)

    If you aren't already in med school, good luck with the application process! (I'm serious)
     
  47. jtheater

    jtheater Senior Member

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    I went to Stanford undergrad. There overall acceptance rate to its med school is 5% maybe (just going off the top of my head) and the acceptance rate to Stanford med of those who went to Stanford undergrad has been greater than 20% for students entering in 2000 and 2001. So I don't think the above comment (with regards to Stanford, at least) is accurate.
     
  48. pathdr2b

    pathdr2b Banned
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    I'm an Alumnae of UF and I can tell you from my expereince after years of observing the medical school admissions game that outside of Florida, no one views UF as an exceptional university.

    I've talked to admissions committee members from Harvard to Howard and not one "got excited" at the mention of my UF degree. Now the one I have from UNC-Chapel Hill carried so much weight with adcoms that I almost felt like the UF diploma didn't exist so much so that beyond the question of my GPA and the school, nothing else mattered not even my major.

    I'd say the undergraduate/graduate school DOES matter especially if you plan on a research career.
     
  49. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper

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    To major in religion at UF probably isn't all that difficult. This is likely why schools weren't too impressed. A chem major from UF (which is what I have) and UNC-CH (what you now have) will both attract attention if performance is high.

    Anyway, I'm not saying UF is fabulous. It's a solid school, though. I certainly wasn't at a disadvantage when applying (more interview invitations than I could attend).

    Students from po-dunk U attend high caliber med schools all the time. Also, students from high caliber undergrads attend small state med schools. In the end, everyone has relatively equal credentials.
     
  50. pathdr2b

    pathdr2b Banned
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    Actually, schools were very impressed with the religion major especially Harvard ( particularily in combo with a minor in microbiology which IS good at UF) but NOT the fact I earned it from UF. A religion degree from Harvard or UChicago would have been more meaningful because of the reputation of these schools, in my opinion. The Religion dept at UF is great, so there's no dispute in that. Also, a religion degree isn't easy at all. I learned to be very fluent in the teachings of Jung, Neitzhe (sp?)and Freud and I think anyone of average intelligence would agree that neither of these individuals are a particularly "easy" read. My concentration was Religious Philosophy which goes a little bit beyond the "the Buddha founded Buddhism while meditating naked under the Bodi tree" line of thinking.
     
  51. Trajan

    Trajan Senior Member

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    I've posted this twice before, but I'll do it again, as I think it to be sound information.

    A representative from Dartmouth Medical School visited my college (a top LAC) and had this to say:

    "A's are wonderful from any college, but we consider B's relative to the college where they were earned. If an applicant from Dartmouth, Williams, or Middlebury has a significant number of B's (in addition to a decent number of A's), he/she is still competitive. However, a similar number of B's from the other 98% of American colleges would be frowned upon. C's are noted and not helpful, regardless of where they were earned."
     
  52. relatively prime

    relatively prime post happy member

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    That doesn't mean anything. Students at top undergrads tend to be stronger applicants... not because they go to a great school, but because, well... they are the kind of students that got accepted to a top undergrad. They are pre-selected.

    Med schools accept a lot of studenst from top undergrads b/c these students happen to be pre-selected as better students... not because they went to a top undergrad.

    That said... I think it does matter a little. However, I also think major matters a little. I would think a Biochem degree from any school would be at least as impressive as some easy humanities degree from Havard.

    Over all I would say that the fact that top ungrads are more represented in med shcool is;
    10% med school bias,
    70% pre-selection phenomenon, and
    20% strong pre-med committee (like the one's at UPenn that pre-screen recs and pics out the best ones to send out for a student).
     

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