Research career?: basic science (animal model) vs. clinical research

[hachamor_persists]

I think I'm interested in basic science animal model research or clinical research. Does anyone have advice on figuring out which--if either--is the right fit, and how important it is that I decide before veterinary school? Do you typically have to do a DVM-PhD to do research while in veterinary school? as a career?

I have some research experience, including in animal models in a lab that works on basic science (I've also done a little experimental design, but that was with microbiology and plant models). I also have some clinical experience but have only had peripheral exposure to clinical research. I'm thinking right now that clinical research might be a better fit for me than basic science because I'm tending to ask questions that are much more applied. From my experience, I also think I'd enjoy clinical practice, I just love asking questions and learning about new methods--I'd love the opportunity to pay that forward helping to find new ones!

I've also really enjoyed being in labs where I had some freedom when it came to deciding my own questions and experimental design, which I'm worried neither clinical nor animal model research would provide until I'd gained quite a bit of experience. Is my intuition there correct?

Edit:
I just found out that translational research is a thing (at least in human medicine). Is that a thing I can do in veterinary medicine? Is anyone here involved in research of that nature and willing to talk or send me some papers? The only downside (which is also a clinical research downside) is that I'd love to have an impact on human medicine (even if very indirectly). I'm from a culture where providing top care to people is worlds and worlds more valued than providing top care to animals.

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[Musicandhorses]

you can PM me if you want. I did a DVM then a PhD in translational research and medicine. I’m working in clinic today so have to make it brief right now. Will write more later.

 

[Musicandhorses]

Sorry didn’t have time to write much yesterday. There are ways to do all the research you mentioned above but the answer is complex and depends on what you want to do ultimately. Many people get a vet specialization such as lab animal or pathology and do animal models. Some do epidemiology research or basic research. Others specialize and do clinical research in their specialty. My advice before doing ANY PhD program is to know that you really like a subject enough that you want to breathe and live on that subject for 4-5 years average while doing a doctorate on it and then beyond for your career. One pitfall I’ve seen many times is that many students think bench and basic sciences don’t have much computer work which can be very wrong. Even basic scientists have to write grants papers and analyze stats. People don’t realize that you could and will likely spend over 50% if not >70% of your time doing these things.

Another advice I would have in clinical vs applied vs basic research is get exposure to these things. Just like in clinical vet Med you won’t know if you like something without trying it. There is a huge push now to work on translational type research from places like the NIH. There are decent sized conferences you can go to. If you aren’t sure what direction to go in but are sure you want to go to vet school I’d go to vet school first, figure out what subjects you really like, try to get research experience in those areas then after vet school maybe start grad school +/- residency. I have found that without a residency I’ve been limited in what I could do. Therefore, I’m thinking of applying to anatomical path residencies at some point. There are jobs out there for straight DVM PhD in industry but more options exist if you get boarded specialty too. If you’re not interested in specializing then maybe a straight PhD program would best suite you? You can apply to straight PhD programs in clinical and translational research if you want.

My best advice is to try to get experience with different things to see what you like. Only go to vet school as long as you understand the debt load and WANT to work as a vet in some capacity. Otherwise you are wasting your time. I actually enjoy GP so I work in clinic 4 days per week and work freelancing about 10-40 hours per week in mostly medical writing. I enjoy both but not having an actual specialty has limited me a little. I really love pathology but only do a specialty if you really like it. Only do a DVM if you can see yourself working as a vet. In my PhD program we also had nurses mds and other professionals. So you don’t have to go to vet school to work on animal models. There are so many options available and I would suggest getting experience in many areas to see what you like. Yes most in research require a PhD and likely a specialization would help too.

As far as research questions doing experiments that depends on the PhD program. For mine there were projects people worked on and you were expected to study some aspect of those subjects but if you figured out a research question on your own the PI would be open to it. That’s not all programs or PIs though so keep that in mind. Yes it takes years to learn to ask the right questions and to see what projects are appropriate for your PhD. Remember that experiments don’t always work to plan and your advisors are HOPEFULLY there to get you to graduate with your PhD efficiently and with first author papers. Some ideas would be too risky for vet students or PhD students trying to finish their programs. A GOOD PhD advisor mentor would help you in the very early part of your program with this. Some people take on multiple projects like one SAFE one and one harder one like I did. A GOOD mentor and PhD program would help you in this matter early before you get too far along.

I hope I answered some of your questions. Feel free to ask me if you need more help or clarification. Keep in mind that the translational research is very interdisciplinary but also quite young. Which means you can ALMOST study anything.

Good luck!

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I don't have advice regarding your career questions (I'm firmly in basic science research at the moment), but here are some things to consider when picking a lab or program if you decide to go the grad school route. Hopefully some of this is helpful to you:


- Do a lot of reading. Read the recent papers that have come out of every lab you're interested in and think critically about them: are you interested in the methods they're using, what journals are they publishing in, who is the first author, and could you see yourself spending hundreds of hours reading and writing similar papers?

- Will you have to pay tuition? (This might not seem important right out of undergrad when you're so used to paying tuition as a default, but do. not. ignore. this. part. You will have regrets later.) Would the lab pay your stipend or would you have to compete for TA positions? How much TA work is expected?

- How many years does the average student take to complete the program? What jobs do they go on to afterwards? Do they have jobs lined up before they graduate? How many papers does the average student have when they graduate?

- Talk to the PI. If possible, do this over the phone/skype/in person and not just over e-mail. Getting along with your PI is hugely important, so make sure the person is a fit for you just as much as the research is. Glance through their CV if it's posted on the university webpage.

- Talk to the current/recent students. Don't have these conversations with the PI present. Find out what they liked about working with their PI and what they didn't like. How hands on is the PI? How available are they for talking with / troubleshooting with students? (i.e., do you always need an appointment or can you stop by their office?) How much support do they give for things like preparing for presentations, applying for travel funding, etc? Is there a lab manager or any post-docs? Are students responsible for lab supply ordering, for supervising undergraduates, etc? Who does protocol training - the PI, a more senior grad student, or are new students often left to fend for themselves? How much time do students have for research and how much is taken up by other responsibilities? How involved are students in writing manuscripts from their projects? How much creative control do students have in their research?

- Find out what conferences the lab regularly attends, and what funding or support there is for students to travel. Would you get to go to conferences, or is it frequently only the PI and senior students who travel?

- How often does the department bring in visiting speakers? What networking opportunities are there? What opportunities are there for students to give seminars or presentations?

- Look for current job postings. What's out there, how often do jobs open up, what is the pay scale like, do the descriptions sound interesting to you? This may help you narrow down career ideas while you're trying to figure out clinical vs. translational vs. basic science.


Good luck!

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Oh, another thing to think about. I joined my lab *specifically* for the project I'm on. My newest lab mate joined without knowing what project she'd have or even what species it would be in. She seems happy with what she's doing now, but I would feel really strange about committing somewhere before I knew what projects I would be given. A huge reason I love what I'm doing is because I chased after this project and didn't just end up with whatever loose ends were laying around.

 

[that redhead]

Calling @WhtsThFrequency

 

[JJ Bittenbinder]

I asked a question like this when I was visiting Cornell, specifically about when a person should choose straight DVM vs DVM/PhD when they are interested in research. The professor told me you can absolutely do research as a straight DVM. He recommended doing a DVM/PhD if you have a research question you know you’re interested in tackling, but not just because.

 

[cheathac]

Great thread and feedback. I'm a current 3rd year veterinary student wanting to pursue a combined lab animal/PhD residency after veterinary school. One question I had was how much does the research you do your PhD in pigeon-hole you as far as career opportunities and such after your PhD? I'm interested in the animal model development/translational research aspect in studying human diseases/issues in animal models.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I asked a question like this when I was visiting Cornell, specifically about when a person should choose straight DVM vs DVM/PhD when they are interested in research. The professor told me you can absolutely do research as a straight DVM. He recommended doing a DVM/PhD if you have a research question you know you’re interested in tackling, but not just because.

DVM/PhD here.

It depends if you want research to be your main gig or your side project. You are not very competitive at all for significant grant funding as a straight DVM, unless you are part of a collaborative grant that includes people with actual research chops who will be the real PIs. It depends on what type of research you want to do. Small clinical trials at a vet school while you practice? You can participate in that as a "regular" DVM. More serious translational research with significant funding, being your primary job? That's going to be a lot more difficult, likely impossible, without a research degree - remember, a DVM is a clinical degree. It in no way prepares you for research, grant-writing, etc.

If you want to do high-end translational research (esp. NIH-funded, and esp. if you want to be primary investigator as opposed to just a co-PI/associate), I highly recommend a PhD. Without one, you're going to be relegated to a bit part parts of a team where they research questions is going to be theirs, not yours. I won't even get into post-docs - one to two of those (1-3 years each) are essentially the norm now for PhD researchers looking to solidify their grant competitiveness.

 

[JJ Bittenbinder]

DVM/PhD here.

It depends if you want research to be your main gig or your side project. You are not very competitive at all for significant grant funding as a straight DVM, unless you are part of a collaborative grant that includes people with actual research chops. It depends on what type of research you want to do. Small clinical trials at a vet school while you practice? You can participate in that as a "regular" DVM. More serious translational research with significant funding, being your primary job? That's going to be a lot more difficult, likely impossible, without a research degree - remember, a DVM is a clinical degree. It in no way prepares you for research, grant-writing, etc.

If you want to do high-end translational research (esp. NIH-funded, and esp. if you want to be primary investigator as opposed to just a co-PI/associate), I highly recommend a PhD. Without one, you're going to be relegated to a bit part parts of a team where they research questions is going to be theirs, not yours. I won't even get into post-docs - one to two of those (1-3 years each) are essentially the norm now for PhD researchers looking to solidify their grant competitiveness.

What do you see as the role of the DVM degree in that process, as compared to going PhD only? Are there certain questions you are more prepared to tackle with a DVM? It seems like a lot of money and time to invest in a degree if a research career would be a main gig.

Thank you for your perspective, it’s very helpful!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

What do you see as the role of the DVM degree in that process, as compared to going PhD only? Are there certain questions you are more prepared to tackle with a DVM? It seems like a lot of money and time to invest in a degree if a research career would be a main gig.

Thank you for your perspective, it’s very helpful!

If someone wants to do basic science and/or translational research as a primary career, I don't really see much benefit in the DVM. Too much expense and time for something that will ultimately not be very helpful. You could have spent those years doing postdocs and getting paid. The biggest hurdle in research is getting grant money, and you are MUCH more attractive as a PhD with several solid postdocs on a grant application than a DVM/PhD with no postdocs. You ccn't do research without grant money. Additionally many (not all, but many) PhD projects in combined DVM/PhD programs are low-impact projects, from what I have seen. If you come out of your PhD with only 1-2 papers in low-impact factor veterinary journals, that does not set you up well.

I got my PhD (translational immuno/inflamm bio/cancer) mainly so I could be in academia to teach. I don't do much research now (75% teaching appointment at an MD school, the rest service at the vet school) and I'm very fine with that. Five years of grueling PhD (I did mine AFTER vet school and residency, so I could focus on it 100% and not be tugged away by clinics and whatnot, which allowed me to complete a LOT more) kind of soured me on a lot of it. I decided I never wanted to be PI once I realized that my life would be constant grant-writing and soul selling.

 

[hachamor_persists]

@Musicandhorses, @WhtsThFrequency, @JJ Bittenbinder, and @PrincessButterCup: Thank you so much! I've been busy since covid-19 has affected my school and lab work, so I haven't fully processed everything. Trying to focus on the here and now for a bit. I'm almost certain that I want some kind of clinical role at least part-time, and I have a plan to get through vet school without more debt than I can handle. Question is whether I'd be willing to put life on hold for a PhD on top of that...I just think research might be a good fit because I'm always wanting to ask questions and innovate. But I also love client interaction! I'm going to think about this more when things calm down but since I'm already research-involved, a switch towards even a solely-research track wouldn't be impossible by any means. Tough maybe though. Hrrmmm. I just really wanted to thank everyone in the meantime!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Honestly, it sounds like a primarily clinical direction with low-level (that doesn't mean not interesting or innovative, just not expensive/groundbreaking) research on the side would be the best fit. E.g. being a DVM +/- specialist at a vet school who helps out with clinical trials, for example. Or who does research in conjunction with basic science people. Just my impression based on what you said above. You can ask questions and innovate without selling your soul to the meat grinder of high-level research.