Research/Extra Curriculars?

[kevdubs]

I am starting med school next year with the idea of going into surgery. I have an option to begin a research project the summer before schools starts and am wondering if this is a good idea or even necessary to get a surgical residency. I have heard from many people that basic research is very good to have on your CV, but I am still confused as to why. I have shadowed a couple of surgeons, and I have seen absolutely no basic research and only little clinical involved in their jobs. Also, I have done basic research for years, and its connection to surgery is still a mystery to me. I know its important to understand the molecular side of thingsin any medical field, but on a day to day basis, I don't see surgeons playing around with pipettors and petri dishes. So why is this considered so vital to be a good surgeon?

Also, during med school, how important is it that I involve myself in extra curriculars, and of what kind should they be? I plan to volunteer in the free clinic at our school, and find anything involved with surgery I can, but is anything outside of this necessary?

Thanks for any advice.

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[Dr. Dukes]

Some basic info on match outcomes (what PDs care about and what they don't): http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf
Spend your time doing something you enjoy and find interesting, not doing something you think will make your CV look good. If that is surgical research (could be clinical or basic science) then great. If that is life guarding then great.

 

[Dr. Dukes]

Whoops...copied the wrong link.
See here http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf and here http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[jc7721]

Whoops...copied the wrong link.
See here http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf and here http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

Thanks for that post Dukes. Browsing through the list for gen surg, the factors deemed important by >2/3 of PDs in selecting applicants to interview and/or rank are as follows. The ones with an * indicate they were an important factor for applicant selection and ranking. Those in bold indicate the overall top factors. The % in parentheses is the importance for interview selection, and the number, out of 5 total, is for ranking.

MSPE*
Grades in required clerkship*
Grades in desired specialty (78%, 4.4)*
Class rank/quartile*
Honors in clinical clerkships (72%, 4.1)*
Honors in desired specialty (73%, 4.3)*
Letter from department chair (85%, 4.4), colleague in specialty (81%, 4.2), clerkship director specialty (76%, 4.2), any faculty*
Step 1 (83%)* and 2*
Personal Statement
Prior knowledge of the applicant*
Consistency of grades
Honors in basic science
Graduate of US allopathic med school
Graduate of highly regarded US med school
AOA
Audition elective
Flagged for NRMP match violation
VISA status

Interview
Interpersonal Skills (4.2)
Interactions with faculty (4.3)
Professional attributes (4.1)
Interactions with housestaff (4.2)
Feedback from current residents (4.1)
Leadership qualities
Perceived commitment to specialty
Perceived interest in program​

 

[Winged Scapula]

Many academic surgeons do indeed run laboratories and while they generally have lab techs, post-docs and residents doing the "pipetting and petri dishes" for them, research is certainly integral to surgery. If you shadowed private practice surgeons, they are not likely involved in surgery and not all surgical faculty are either. But...

Much of the knowledge about parenteral nutrition was founded on research done by surgeons.

Research is important in deciding the minimal surgical margins needed to decrease recurrence of malignancies.

My residency program was instrumental in designing an artificial heart. All of us here are at programs with some heavy research interest and acclaim and many of us spent two or more years in a surgical research lab during residency.

Surgeons are heavily involved in research on sepsis, ARDS, trauma outcomes, skin substitutes and clinical surgery.

Is research necessary to get into a surgical residency? Not at any but the most competitive, academic programs. At this point, research prior to medical school won't be of much use...I'd say do it if you are going to be paid or if it will almost assuredly result in a publication for you, otherwise...enjoy your summer.

 

[Jackofknives]

WS, your cat is jaundiced.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

WS, your cat is jaundiced.

Haha. It said "one more plz" one too many times, mayhaps?

Edit: Mayhaps = maybe + perhaps.

 

[dancinjenn]

One of my favorite attendings would ask you this:

"Do you have a question?"

If you are doing research just to say you did it... then you are doing it for the wrong reason. If you haven't done any before and want to know if you want to do any in the future then go for it. If you find a project that catches your eye and you will take the time to really learn about it...then by all means do the research.

However, most of us know by this point in our lives that doing something that you feel you have to do is torture because all you end up doing is getting resentful that you have to be there. Where as if you really are interested then the time flies.

Caveat: If you are really interested in an academic career then research is a must....but be picky.

Find something that has a chance of being published/presented in the next 3 years. Remember that you apply for residency in the beginning of your 4th year of med school so if it goes to pub after your app goes out then it doesn't really count.

So ask yourself "Do you have a question?"

 

[Gozar]

You should realize that this is one of the last free summers that you will have for a very long time. You will get time off between MS1/2, but after that it will be very difficult to take long periods of time off. If you ever see yourself motorcycling through South America for a month, do that now.

Having said that, one thing that the research experience will get you is a solid contact in the field. Eventually you will be applying for residencies. When that happens you want someone to be able to pick up the phone for you and call a program to get you in. Medicine is inclined towards this form of recommendations. If this summer works out, then you even have next summer under control. Watching your friends scramble for preceptorships and research while you had plans made months ago is just one less thing to think about while cramming physio.

Bottom line - it's nice to get that letter/contact but it's not worth sacrificing life opportunities (Dr. Dukes 100% right on).

 

[kevdubs]

thanks for all the good advice and info. I never knew that surgeons really did do that much research, and I'm glad to learn they do. That document posted by Dr. Dukes was particularly enlightening. It's kind of funny though, because I applied to some MD/PhD programs as well, and in my interviews they always seemed confused about the idea of going through a research program to become a surgeon, or the idea of a surgeon doing much research at all, which only reinforced my own doubts about this. The thing is though, I do enjoy research a lot and its not just something for me to add to a CV. Its always been annoying to me, especially coming from a more research oriented background, that people do take on projects like this simply to fill in the pre-med formula to get accepted somewhere, when there are truly passionate individuals that deserve these spots more. but i guess thats how the professional world works sometimes.

But anyway, I've decided to look for a good project to get involved with over the summer, which will hopefully give me some good experiences or connections, and hopefully a publication. Also, I don't want to end up in private practice, so I think it makes sense to start getting this experience anyway. It does suck that I won't be able to go on one last long traveling adventure or something like that, but luckily I took a year off after highschool and vagabonded through Hawaii and Europe, so I've had that experience before)

 

[Winged Scapula]

WS, your cat is jaundiced.

 

[Dr. Dukes]

thanks for all the good advice and info. I never knew that surgeons really did do that much research, and I'm glad to learn they do. That document posted by Dr. Dukes was particularly enlightening. It's kind of funny though, because I applied to some MD/PhD programs as well, and in my interviews they always seemed confused about the idea of going through a research program to become a surgeon, or the idea of a surgeon doing much research at all, which only reinforced my own doubts about this.

A lot of surgery RESIDENTS do basic science research, but not a lot of attendings do. The Jan 2009 issue of Annals of Surgery published an article, (Prevalence and cost of full-time research fellowships during general surgery residency: a national survey, Ann Surg. 2009 Jan;249(1):155-61, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) that makes the argument that interrupting residency for dedicated research is a waste of time considering very few surgical attendings run a basic science lab.
Granted, I'm an MSII, but it seems to me that considering the point of residency is to produce surgeons there are better ways to do it than making residents take two years out of their training to put water in tubes.

 

[Jackofknives]

A lot of surgery RESIDENTS do basic science research, but not a lot of attendings do. The Jan 2009 issue of Annals of Surgery published an article, (Prevalence and cost of full-time research fellowships during general surgery residency: a national survey, Ann Surg. 2009 Jan;249(1):155-61, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) that makes the argument that interrupting residency for dedicated research is a waste of time considering very few surgical attendings run a basic science lab.
Granted, I'm an MSII, but it seems to me that considering the point of residency is to produce surgeons there are better ways to do it than making residents take two years out of their training to put water in tubes.

I think the objective is to bridge the gap between basic and clinical science, to produce residents and future attendings who are comfortable with reading and employing basic scientific discoveries as a source of inspiration for their translational and clinical research later in their career.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As noted above, the objective of time in the lab is not to perfect your pipetting skills. But rather, it is to learn how to run the day to day operations of the lab, how to apply for grants, publish, etc.

And besides, the major benefit for many surgical residents is not the experience or the publications but the ability to work some "normal" hours, get some rest, spend more time with family. It is not uncommon for residents to claim they went into the lab simply for those reasons and not some burning scientific need.