Research in M1 during school year? Worth it?

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oceanman

oceanman

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Hello everyone,

I have the opportunity to do clinical research at my school and I can start whenever I want. I know most people stick to doing research (if any) during their first summer between M1 & M2. But, I'm not sure if that's enough time to crank out a pub. Personally, I have done tons of research in undergrad, but hated it. However, that was all bench research, so I'm not sure exactly how different that would be from clinical research.

Point is, I was planning on getting started with research now, during the school year and just carry it over into the summer. By then I hope to have at least 2 pubs and then I can be done with it and just focus on boards during 2nd year. Has anyone done research during the school year? Is it manageable? The only threads I find are about doing research in the summer, which is why I'm posting this.

I know most people say that not doing research doesn't hurt. But, with the upcoming merger, which no one really knows how it will play out. I want to be as competitive as possible and not close any doors. I might become interested in a competitive speciality down the line and I don't want to close that door before I even know it was open.

Would appreciate any feedback.
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oceanman said:
Hello everyone,

I have the opportunity to do clinical research at my school and I can start whenever I want. I know most people stick to doing research (if any) during their first summer between M1 & M2. But, I'm not sure if that's enough time to crank out a pub. Personally, I have done tons of research in undergrad, but hated it. However, that was all bench research, so I'm not sure exactly how different that would be from clinical research.

Point is, I was planning on getting started with research now, during the school year and just carry it over into the summer. By then I hope to have at least 2 pubs and then I can be done with it and just focus on boards during 2nd year. Has anyone done research during the school year? Is it manageable? The only threads I find are about doing research in the summer, which is why I'm posting this.

I know most people say that not doing research doesn't hurt. But, with the upcoming merger, which no one really knows how it will play out. I want to be as competitive as possible and not close any doors. I might become interested in a competitive speciality down the line and I don't want to close that door before I even know it was open.

Would appreciate any feedback.
Click to expand...

Do research if you enjoy research. Do not do research to make yourself more competitive or to chase some program. If you want to be more competitive work on things that have the greatest effect on landing interviews with programs such as work for a high board score.


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WorldChanger36 said:
Do research if you enjoy research. Do not do research to make yourself more competitive or to chase some program. If you want to be more competitive work on things that have the greatest effect on landing interviews with programs such as work for a high board score.


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Click to expand...
I get that, but 1) I'm not sure if I will enjoy clinical research, never done it & 2) I know board scores are the main thing that make us competitive, but I am far from the point where I actually begin to study and worry about them. Barely finishing my 1st semester of M1. Until then I will surely focus on what I learn in my classes to build that foundation for dedicated.
 
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oceanman said:
Hello everyone,

I have the opportunity to do clinical research at my school and I can start whenever I want. I know most people stick to doing research (if any) during their first summer between M1 & M2. But, I'm not sure if that's enough time to crank out a pub. Personally, I have done tons of research in undergrad, but hated it. However, that was all bench research, so I'm not sure exactly how different that would be from clinical research.

Point is, I was planning on getting started with research now, during the school year and just carry it over into the summer. By then I hope to have at least 2 pubs and then I can be done with it and just focus on boards during 2nd year. Has anyone done research during the school year? Is it manageable? The only threads I find are about doing research in the summer, which is why I'm posting this.

I know most people say that not doing research doesn't hurt. But, with the upcoming merger, which no one really knows how it will play out. I want to be as competitive as possible and not close any doors. I might become interested in a competitive speciality down the line and I don't want to close that door before I even know it was open.

Would appreciate any feedback.
Click to expand...

Who is the PI? Have they had research experience? As a medical student you shouldn't be the one to direct the research or be responsible for writing the paper the PI or lead author should do that while you assist in either data mining or data analysis which is doable over the summer and also into the year. I performed clinical research during the summer and pumped out two projects and made sure to let them know that my time dedicated to research will be limited once school starts. I am also doing research right now but it has def stayed on the back burner as the end of this semester for M2 hit.

It is manageable if you are good with your time. If you find your grades slipping then you need to cut the research. You can do research in third year and fourth year as well.
 
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The PI is a faculty member on campus who is heavily involved in clinical trails and has dozens upon dozens of publications. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I'll try to incorporate it into my semester and carry it into the summer. If it's too much during the year, I can cut back and just wait for the summer. Do you or anyone know if federal work study affect the loan amount we are offered?
 
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oceanman said:
The PI is a faculty member on campus who is heavily involved in clinical trails and has dozens upon dozens of publications. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I'll try to incorporate it into my semester and carry it into the summer. If it's too much during the year, I can cut back and just wait for the summer. Do you or anyone know if federal work study affect the loan amount we are offered?
Click to expand...

I don't believe so. You'd have to ask your FA office though.



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oceanman said:
Hello everyone,

I have the opportunity to do clinical research at my school and I can start whenever I want. I know most people stick to doing research (if any) during their first summer between M1 & M2. But, I'm not sure if that's enough time to crank out a pub. Personally, I have done tons of research in undergrad, but hated it. However, that was all bench research, so I'm not sure exactly how different that would be from clinical research.

Point is, I was planning on getting started with research now, during the school year and just carry it over into the summer. By then I hope to have at least 2 pubs and then I can be done with it and just focus on boards during 2nd year. Has anyone done research during the school year? Is it manageable? The only threads I find are about doing research in the summer, which is why I'm posting this.

I know most people say that not doing research doesn't hurt. But, with the upcoming merger, which no one really knows how it will play out. I want to be as competitive as possible and not close any doors. I might become interested in a competitive speciality down the line and I don't want to close that door before I even know it was open.

Would appreciate any feedback.
Click to expand...

It's very manageable, especially as an M1 as your workload is lighter than M2 and your schedule is more flexible.

AlteredScale said:
Who is the PI? Have they had research experience? As a medical student you shouldn't be the one to direct the research or be responsible for writing the paper the PI or lead author should do that while you assist in either data mining or data analysis which is doable over the summer and also into the year. I performed clinical research during the summer and pumped out two projects and made sure to let them know that my time dedicated to research will be limited once school starts. I am also doing research right now but it has def stayed on the back burner as the end of this semester for M2 hit.

It is manageable if you are good with your time. If you find your grades slipping then you need to cut the research. You can do research in third year and fourth year as well.
Click to expand...

I'd push back on this a little bit and argue that as a med student you should be shooting to write the manuscript and get first authorship. A middle author pub is better than nothing but a first authorship signifies significantly more about your understanding of the research process and ability to get things over the finish line. You can start with the chart review/data mining, learn how to do analysis, and write the paper. That way you end up learning a lot more than if you're just trolling through an EMR entering variables into an excel spreadsheet. Further, it's a valuable experience to see the whole scientific process from start to finish, including learning how manuscripts go through the revision and publishing process to end up in journals. As a med student you're fully qualified to be writing your own manuscripts, assuming you have appropriate support and oversight from your mentor(s).
 
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mcloaf said:
It's very manageable, especially as an M1 as your workload is lighter than M2 and your schedule is more flexible.



I'd push back on this a little bit and argue that as a med student you should be shooting to write the manuscript and get first authorship. A middle author pub is better than nothing but a first authorship signifies significantly more about your understanding of the research process and ability to get things over the finish line. You can start with the chart review/data mining, learn how to do analysis, and write the paper. That way you end up learning a lot more than if you're just trolling through an EMR entering variables into an excel spreadsheet. Further, it's a valuable experience to see the whole scientific process from start to finish, including learning how manuscripts go through the revision and publishing process to end up in journals. As a med student you're fully qualified to be writing your own manuscripts, assuming you have appropriate support and oversight from your mentor(s).
Click to expand...

I agree. I think my wording was more directed to OPs worry that they would have to carry the responsibility of writing a manuscript from the get go an not handle their course work. It is 100% a greater experience to write up the manuscript and gain full exposure to the entire process of getting a manuscript submitted and accepted for publication.




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I would encourage you to do research, however as others pointed be clear (in whatever appropriate fashion) that you are interested in publication/presentation at conferences. Research is manageable during coursework, so long as you do not have to travel extensively.
 
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WorldChanger36 said:
Do research if you enjoy research. Do not do research to make yourself more competitive or to chase some program. If you want to be more competitive work on things that have the greatest effect on landing interviews with programs such as work for a high board score.


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Click to expand...

Wait, really? I'm not trying to disagree with you, but this is the first time I heard of where it's wiser to stay away from research if you're only doing it to be more competitive. But what about residencies? Aren't there certain residencies that require research?
 
FAQs
BOSTON UNIVERSITY INTERNAL MEDICINE RESIDENCY PROGRAM

FAQs for our APPLICATION PROCESS

What is the minimum score required for USMLE Step 1 & Step 2 (CK & CS)?

  • The minimum score required for both Step 1 & Step 2 is 230.
  • Our current intern class has an average score of 238 for Step 1 & 251 for Step 2
https://www.bumc.bu.edu/im-residency/applying-to-bu/faqs/


So as you can see above, your research will not matter at all if you don't have the board scores required for a particular program.
 
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shadowlightfox said:
Wait, really? I'm not trying to disagree with you, but this is the first time I heard of where it's wiser to stay away from research if you're only doing it to be more competitive. But what about residencies? Aren't there certain residencies that require research?
Click to expand...

There are some programs that require research. Lets also keep in mind this is a DO forum and many residencies that require research are not going to touch a DO... at all. Ruling them out you have the residencies that like research but DOs still have a good chance. All of these residencies hold board scores well above research. Considering research requires years of commitment to get a pub your efforts are better used targeting what is going to get you in. Thats boards. Assuming you are of average med student intelligence you will reach a limit of what you can handle your first 2 years. If you put that time into chasing research you arent going to have the time for boards and your scores will be lower.
Now I am not saying you dont do case write ups in your 3rd and 4th years you should and this will get you some paper in the research column but not like full bench pubs.
We all have limits and efforts are best served hitting those boards hard your first two years.


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jkdoctor said:
FAQs
BOSTON UNIVERSITY INTERNAL MEDICINE RESIDENCY PROGRAM

FAQs for our APPLICATION PROCESS

What is the minimum score required for USMLE Step 1 & Step 2 (CK & CS)?

  • The minimum score required for both Step 1 & Step 2 is 230.
  • Our current intern class has an average score of 238 for Step 1 & 251 for Step 2
https://www.bumc.bu.edu/im-residency/applying-to-bu/faqs/


So as you can see above, your research will not matter at all if you don't have the board scores required for a particular program.
Click to expand...
Yeah I totally agree with that. But, let's say there are two applicants with identical board scores and applications (both DOs). However, one has done some research with a couple publications, whereas the other has no research or publications. I'm sure 9/10 they would choose the applicant with research experience.

As many have said, research can only help you. I understand that research is no replacement for a low board score. But, that doesn't mean people shouldn't do research because boards scores are the most important. I would agree with that if research gets in the way of a student studying and they simply cannot balance the two. In that case, yes, forget research and focus on your classes and boards. But, if you can manage that and squeeze it in, by all means go for it.

And it does depend on the specialty you want to go into.
 
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WorldChanger36 said:
There are some programs that require research. Lets also keep in mind this is a DO forum and many residencies that require research are not going to touch a DO... at all. Ruling them out you have the residencies that like research but DOs still have a good chance. All of these residencies hold board scores well above research. Considering research requires years of commitment to get a pub your efforts are better used targeting what is going to get you in. Thats boards. Assuming you are of average med student intelligence you will reach a limit of what you can handle your first 2 years. If you put that time into chasing research you arent going to have the time for boards and your scores will be lower.
Now I am not saying you dont do case write ups in your 3rd and 4th years you should and this will get you some paper in the research column but not like full bench pubs.
We all have limits and efforts are best served hitting those boards hard your first two years.


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Click to expand...
I agree, which is why I am going to squeeze in all my research between now and M2. I have the entire spring semester and all of summer. My goal is to get at least two publications by then, which I think is very much possible. After that, I'm done with research. And I'll spend the rest of M2 solely focusing on classes and boards.
 
oceanman said:
I agree, which is why I am going to squeeze in all my research between now and M2. I have the entire spring semester and all of summer. My goal is to get at least two publications by then, which I think is very much possible. After that, I'm done with research. And I'll spend the rest of M2 solely focusing on classes and boards.
Click to expand...

Nah you dont agree but whatever do as you wish. I hope you learn something and enjoy the research.


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WorldChanger36 said:
Considering research requires years of commitment to get a pub
Click to expand...

Agree with your point overall. The vast majority of research done in medical school is clinical research though, which takes far less time and someone can get two pubs or a couple posters just from 2 months during the summer. Do you think the people matching NS have spent years doing bench neuroscience work? Nah it's clinical, hence why they have so many pubs most of the time. I definitely agree bench research takes forever, but just wanted to clarify for anyone reading this that most research in medical school does not take years to get pubs because it isn't bench.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Agree with your point overall. The vast majority of research done in medical school is clinical research though, which takes far less time and someone can get two pubs or a couple posters just from 2 months during the summer. Do you think the people matching NS have spent years doing bench neuroscience work? Nah it's clinical, hence why they have so many pubs most of the time. I definitely agree bench research takes forever, but just wanted to clarify for anyone reading this that most research in medical school does not take years to get pubs because it isn't bench.
Click to expand...

Case write up sure. Do it in 3rd year when you have the time but i already said that. This isnt "research" but it counts in that column


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WorldChanger36 said:
Case write up sure. Do it in 3rd year when you have the time but i already said that. This isnt "research" but it counts in that column


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Click to expand...

I know M1s who will have multiple pubs my the end of M1. Not one of them has done bench. I stand by what I said, most med students don't do bench research.
 
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Is your school true pass/fail?
If it's not, it is probably not worth it.
 
WorldChanger36 said:
It is an extremely rare situation for a 1st year to be writing up cases out of a DO school.
Click to expand...

To be fair, most DO students don't even do research at all. We can agree though that bench research is boring and takes forever.
 
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y123 said:
Is your school true pass/fail?
If it's not, it is probably not worth it.
Click to expand...
It is pass/fail, but what do you mean by "true" pass/fail? We still get ranked by our GPAs.
 
I'm a second year at a DO school. I was first author on a case report published in a specialty journal, wrote it up during first year. Wasn't much work (relatively), and I see why people can get several done during clinical years. I got on the case from shadowing at a nearby institution. If you want research, go find it, even if it's at other institutions.

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Para-dox said:
I'm a second year at a DO school. I was first author on a case report published in a specialty journal, wrote it up during first year. Wasn't much work (relatively), and I see why people can get several done during clinical years. I got on the case from shadowing at a nearby institution. If you want research, go find it, even if it's at other institutions.

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Clinical years yes. During the preclinical years should really just be pushing for awesome boards


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oceanman said:
It is pass/fail, but what do you mean by "true" pass/fail? We still get ranked by our GPAs.
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How do you have a GPA if it is pass/fail? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of pass fail?
 
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Agree 100%. Not all research has to be bench research, which has, at least for me, a two year arc between bench and publication.

One can start with clinical faculty and ask if they have any case reports they think are publishable and would like written up.

OR, ask if they have clinical data that they need numbers crunching on.

And here's something that DO world needs help on. Most OMM faculty (at least my colleagues) are overworked and do NOT have enough time for research.

It's very easy to come up with a hypothesis for an OMM technique on some outcome, write a very simple IRB, and then organize and do the research (either during the year, during summer breaks, or during elective or research rotations). You don't need to do ELISAs on 100 analytes from 100 pts and 100 controls, just do a trial.

And even if the results are identical to control or sham techniques, Osteopathy needs this information! The whole nature of Science is that you test something, and if it doesn't work, you throw it out and move on to the next thing. I suspect that my DO colleagues are loath to do this because they're afraid of their beloved notions not actually having any real effects. But this is how Medicine improves!

Sorry for the soapbox.

Para-dox said:
I'm a second year at a DO school. I was first author on a case report published in a specialty journal, wrote it up during first year. Wasn't much work (relatively), and I see why people can get several done during clinical years. I got on the case from shadowing at a nearby institution. If you want research, go find it, even if it's at other institutions.

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@Dr. Death All students are ranked based on their grades. Someone with a B+ in anatomy is ranked higher than someone with a B-
But on their transcripts both will have P for pass.


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oceanman said:
@Dr. Death All students are ranked based on their grades. Someone with a B+ in anatomy is ranked higher than someone with a B-
But on their transcripts both will have P for pass.


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Click to expand...

Then it's not a true P/F curriculum. A true P/F doesn't rank based on pre-clinical grades and some don't even rank at all.
 
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WorldChanger36 said:
Clinical years yes. During the preclinical years should really just be pushing for awesome boards


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I respectfully disagree with the idea that one cannot do both. I found the case report to be a refreshing break from usual studies, while still being productive. But as always, to each their own.

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I feel like there's a lot of conflating case reports with research ITT. Case reports are better than nothing but they certainly aren't viewed the same as actual research projects that explore hypotheses and require much more work.

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I did research during my gap year before my M1 semester. I was hoping to get at least one publication out of it (but it may take awhile) and it may result in a few more depending on the data we still have yet to extrapolate. I may even ask my PI at the moment what he recommends to do this summer (we had a few projects together that we're nearly done with).

I'm not entirely sold on any specific field of medicine at the moment so I have no idea what I should pursue for research this summer (and a lot of MS3/MS4 and residents told me your "dream" field may change due to Step scores and clinical rotations).

Some of my classmates will end up doing "bench research" at our med school campus (apparently it's quite common and I've already heard of some cool research projects) while others will pursue clinical research out in hospitals (I always felt these are hard to get since SURFs as undergrads were so competitive to land during the summer). Deadlines from my understanding are late January/early February for a lot of the clinical research during my summer off. I will probably look into both "on campus" research opportunities and keep my eye open for clinical research out in hospitals.

There is a M2 from our school who landed a prestigious summer internship in a highly competitive field (ortho) at a top 20 med school but he admitted he know someone who was affiliated with the program.
 
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oceanman said:
At my school


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Same. From my understanding, most research at our school during M1 summers result in at least one poster.

I've gotten a lot of mixed opinions about clinical research especially if you're not sure about what field you're interested in just yet. Although the way the clubs work at our school, you could get a publication by continuously being involved with locally affiliated hospitals (some surgical resident told us that's what a few people who matched at the program in recent years did from our institution).
 
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AlteredScale said:
Who is the PI? Have they had research experience? As a medical student you shouldn't be the one to direct the research or be responsible for writing the paper the PI or lead author should do that while you assist in either data mining or data analysis which is doable over the summer and also into the year. I performed clinical research during the summer and pumped out two projects and made sure to let them know that my time dedicated to research will be limited once school starts. I am also doing research right now but it has def stayed on the back burner as the end of this semester for M2 hit.

It is manageable if you are good with your time. If you find your grades slipping then you need to cut the research. You can do research in third year and fourth year as well.
Click to expand...

What if this is bench research, is this advisable to do research in M1?
 
Alakazam123 said:
What if this is bench research, is this advisable to do research in M1?
Click to expand...
I would say not advisable because bench takes so much longer and you already have enough on your plate with school alone and adjusting. Plus you don’t always get publications there. To each their own but I don’t think it’s a good idea
 
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