research or volunteer

[doubledigits]

hello,
I'm new here and i was wondering if anyone could help me out. This summer i have the oppurtunity to either do some research work (in organic chemistry though) or volunteer at a hospital and maybe even shadow a doctor. I was wondering which would be better for my application. Thanks.

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[Green912]

Volunteer Volunteer Volunteer

 

[kreno]

why dont you do both?

 

[MUN2005]

If there is no possible way to do both, I would volunteer. Research looks good but I think the volunteer experience would be more valuable for your application.

 

[relatively prime]

Try to do both!! I'd disagree with the other poster... research is more important. Mainly because research oppertunities tend to be harder to get than volunteer oppertunities... you can pretty much always find volunteer work. Take the research job and volunteer somewhere in the evenings or on weekends. I got a volunteer job at a clinic where I could come in on fridays after 6pm! It was great.

Once again... try to do both! You need both to be a strong applicant.

good luck

 

[sandflea]

i completely disagree--you don't need research to be a competitive applicant *unless* you are applying for MD/PhD programs. however, having no clinical experience on your application looks pretty bad because your interest and understanding of medicine may be called into question if you've never actually been exposed to the field. having some kind of medical experience is virtually a must--research is just icing on the cake, and research doesn't count for as much if you don't get a publication out of it anyway.

do both if you can, but if not, go for the volunteer work.

 

[RLMD]

I agree, do the research. I had the hardest time finding research, since I cant be at my school in the summer, and i have to work during school. Volunteer work has never been a problem because people are always willing to hire you as long as they dont have to pay you. Everyone loves volunteers. Go with the research if you cant do both. What year are you? Hopefully, you have time to do some volunteer work/shadowing later on.

 

[relatively prime]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by sandflea:
•i completely disagree--you don't need research to be a competitive applicant *unless* you are applying for MD/PhD programs.
•••••That's BS... you need research experience... especially if you want to apply to any school in the not 40 usnews ~research~ frames... which is the ranking almost everyone goes by. Listen to RLMD...

Clinical experience is also a MUST... I'm not saying it isn't. But clinicial experience tends to be easier to come by than research experience.

What really matters is what year this person is in. If he/she is a freshman or sophmore it probably doesn't matter... because what he/she doesn't do now he/she can do later...

So doubledigits: what year are you? and what experience do you have already?

 

[sandflea]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by relatively prime:

[/qb] That's BS... you need research experience... especially if you want to apply to any school in the not 40 usnews ~research~ frames... which is the ranking almost everyone goes by. Listen to RLMD...
[/QB]••••no, i still disagree. i know *PLENTY* of people who got into top schools without ever setting foot in a lab. not every person wants to go into research and adcoms know this. research has the potential to be impressive but doesn't make up for any other lacking parts of your application, and oftentimes its impact on improving your app is nil unless you have something tangible to show for it--a publication, a poster at a major conference, etc, etc.

doubledigits, don't pursue the research just because you think it will improve your med school application--ONLY do it because you are interested in working in a lab. meaningful volunteer experiences (i.e. shadowing a doctor) can be quite difficult to come by, while summer lab positions are a dime-a-dozen among med school applications. having interesting, real-life clinical experiences to talk about during interviews will go a long way toward impressing an adcom because it shows that you know and understand what you're getting into. i've worked in a lab full-time for the past three years and gotten several publications out of it, but no one wanted to hear about my research at my interviews--however, EVERYONE wanted to hear about my volunteer work, and what i've learned from it, what it's taught me about medicine, etc, etc. if you can't do both, shadow the doctor.

 

[relatively prime]

Sandflea... please don't make assumptions based on exceptions to the rule... there is no one rule that applies all the time to everyone. Sure, there will be people who get into top schools without doing research, however they probably have something else really outstanding (like their parent's donated 20 million dollars... no... j/k!) But seriously... MOST of the time an applicant is expected to have at least some research experience.

I personally have never heard of a "typical" student getting into a top 30 (according to USnews) without research.

"typical" being not a URM, MCAT less than 40, no major connections, no noble peace prize or other major national or international accomplishment

 

[RLMD]

I dont disagree that clinical experience is more important than research experience in your application. We are just saying that research experience is just harder to come by and this person should take the opportunity while its there. I know this from experience, especially since I am a non-science major and I didnt have numerous profs to ask for a chance to do research with them. Volunteering, on the other hand, was simple. Just call up or visit a local hospital's web page. Almost all hospitals have volunteer opportunities. While you are there, get to know a physician. Tell them about yourself and your desire to study medicine. Most physicians are very willing to teach and may even offer to let you shadow them! Anyway, I suggest the person do the research now, depending on how much time they have left before applying.

 

[biotron]

I don't think it is a matter of which is more important, research or volunteering. It matters what you do with either of them. If you volunteer, take it seriously and leave your mark on the orginization you get involved with. If you do research, you should seek to do research that will generate a peer-reviewed publication. this typically means more than just one semester of washing dishes in a lab.

My story:
I did a lot of basic science research. I had zero hours of volunteer experience in college, but did spend a whole day in clinic with a gastroenterologist before I applied (MD program). Some schools (Mayo) would not give my application a second glance b/c I was lacking volunteer experience. However, I did get a few interviews at other schools. Interviewers did not seem overly concerned about the absence of service activities on my application, b/c I had accomplished so much in my research (which started my freshman year and continues today). Of course, I had to justify my interest in the clinical end of medicine considering I had no documented exposure to it. It seemed to me that as long as did something constructive and focused with your time, that was enough. Anyhow I was accepted to both my state schools and waitlisted at an out-of-state school.

 

[brickmanli]

If you want to go into academic medicine, by all means do research. Otherwise, it's totally pointless.

A little bit about me. I have been doing research for six years now. I even cowrote an article during the junior year of high school. But no medical school was knocking on my door until six months ago I started to do some "lowly" volunteer work with elderly patients. Research is so overrated, especially since most PI's don't give students that many responsibilities. You could learn more in organic lab. Unless you have James Watson to write a recommendation for you, by all means skip research. Yeah, publication is a big deal to admissions officers, but so is writing a book or climbing a mountain.

I wouldn't do the organic chemistry research because you want to become a doctor, not pursue a PhD in chemistry. If you have an opportunity to do some clinical research, where you crunch numbers as well as interact with patients, that would be a better option.

Your point is not to do the most distiniguished thing, but the best activity related to your medical career. This honesty will be reflected in your application. It also gives you material for your essay.

But of course, I'm assuming you don't want to be a MD/PhD, and also that you're not just going to slack off if not choosing research.

 

[banannie]

I'm personally a bigger fan of volunteering, but you should keep in mind that not all volunteer experiences are equal. It's not going to be as valuable if you're stuck stocking shelves and working the gift shop the whole time.

 

[Sweet Tea]

I agree with Banannie about the quality of volunteer experience, but the same can be said for research. There's a big difference between washing dishes in a lab and contributing to an article.

Do you have any previous research experience? How about patient contact? If you don't have either research experience or patient contact, then I would volunteer ONLY if you were going to be able to interact with patients (ie, not just stocking shelves). I have several friends who applied to med schools without a lick of research experience but had quality volunteer experiences and they got into top-25 schools.

IMHO, it's hard to explain why you want to be a doctor if you've never worked with patients. I'm not saying it can't be done; it just makes things challenging.

 

[Raist]

Volunteering is necessary because they expect you to have it, but just having it won't make you a stellar applicant. Research is not necessary in that you don't necessarily need it, but commitment to research (poster, publications, conferences, etc...) will make you the stellar applicant. Unless you're volunteering in Kenya that is. So in answer to your question, do both.

 

[none]

There is NO reason that you cannot do both! VA Hospitals are constantly looking for people to volunteer at night. Look, getting into med school is freakishly difficult and you need every activity you can possibly get, regardless of whether some odd people are able to get in without volunteer or research experience.

 

[Green912]

I don't see how the idea that research is harder to come by makes it more valuable then clinical experience. This isn't economics. Yes there are plenty of ways and opportunities to donate your time, but the vast majority of people never do it. Your time volunteering will show that you are willing to DO someting and at the same time will gain valuable insight to the "real" workings of health care. Your four years of course work and MCAT score will show that you can handle the academics. Show them that you can also work with people.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by sandflea:
[QB]--research is just icing on the cake, and research doesn't count for as much if you don't get a publication out of it anyway.
QB]••••hmmmm, not sure if I agree with this comment. I've done clinical research for 5 years, and have had the opportunity to be published too. I don't think publications are what authenticates the research, it's what knowledge and understanding of medicine you gain out of it that's more important. I worked with women that kept having miscarriages, and the emotional pain they go through and the fulfillment I got in helping them through their trials was far more worthy than a publication I got out of it. Just my two cents.....
I'd say do both. But it's better to do research in a biomedical/clinical/"health" related field than Orgo. Again, it's b/c what you get out of that research that's important, not the fact of you doing research. Hope this helps.
Tweetie

 

[none]

Publications definitely do NOT validate undergraduate research! Ugh. If that was true, nearly no one would do it.

 

[dynamic02]

Hey!

just wanted to add in my 2 cents...

I think it would be good for you to do both volunteering and research, and if you can, maybe combine the two. I was able to be an assistant coordinator in a clinical research study in one of the hospitals in town and i did it all for volunteer. It was a great experience-- i was able to get to know a doctor, see and help out with patients, and also see what goes on "behind the scenes" in a clinical study. So if you could do something like that, I think it is not only unique, but it's just an overall good experience.

However, if you are not able to combine the two, I would recommend doing research (make sure it is something you are INTERESTED in and not just doing it so that it "looks good" on your application) and also volunteer on the weekends or evenings (again, make sure it's something you enjoy).

Hope that helps and good luck!

 

[Raist]

In all honesty, anyone canget a lab position doing so called research, and anyone can volunteer. That's why every single applicant to med school will have some type of volunteering experience. So if you don't have it, you are screwed. If you do have it, whoop dee do, so does the next guy. Unless you're doing volunteering work that is totally different from everyone else (saving children in the rainforests of south america) Same goes with research, alotta poeple will have some experience workign in a lab. If you are able to publish (which is very hard, and adcoms know this) it shows that you have the intellectual capability and the commitment to excel in med school, which is what adcoms look for. And not everyone else will have it. So if all else fails, it will make you stand out. But since publishing is so hard to come by, showing that you are committed to your research (posters, for example, letters of reccomendation from your PI) can go a long way in getting you in.

 

[RT]

both. research on weekdays. volunteer on weekends/overnight. if you're going to do it, don't do it halfway. -rt

 

[dfleis]

.

 

[sandflea]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by relatively prime:
•Sandflea... please don't make assumptions based on exceptions to the rule... MOST of the time an applicant is expected to have at least some research experience.•••••huh? who's making assumptions where? i never gave the example of the people i know as hard proof of anything. the fact that i've known so many people who got into top schools without any research at all (and no, no money or anything overly out of the ordinary was involved) simply validates what i've been told time and time again by med students, residents, physicians, premed advisors, adcoms, you name it--that research is nice and can certainly enhance your application but it's not as important as most applicants assume. it's nice to have exposure to another aspect of medicine but if you know that you have no interest in research, then there is no need for you to pursue it. find something else to be passionate about, pursue THAT, and you will knock the socks of any adcom. research is not the key to getting into med school. like i said, a summer lab position is nothing special--it's a dime-a-dozen experience among med school applicants because many are under the impression that it's a box they need to check off on their mental med school application checklist and doesn't make you stand out in any way because it's so common. what makes the research experience stand out is if you're lucky enough to not only get a PI who puts you on quality projects but also puts your name on publications, which is often a rare thing for undergrads and is certainly a stellar thing to have on your app.

i never said that research was worthless to pursue if you didn't get a publication out of it, because of course you may learn a lot from it and it can put the actual practice of medicine into context, and that alone makes it worth it to me--it's just that purely in the eyes of many adcoms, a routine lab experience is nothing special unless you have something tangible to show for it. i didn't make the rules. one adcom i talked to even told me that publications don't even factor into their admissions decisions unless you are third author or better, so now there is even a hierarchy on how much authorship matters if you are privileged enough to even get a publication. doubledigits asked which experience would be more important for his/her application, and my point was that research will never trump quality volunteer work, which is what it sounds like he/she is being offered, IF he/she doesn't have the time to do both (and i don't see how both wouldn't be possible anyway).

 

[MorningLight2100]

Do both if at all possible; lab positions are usually 9-5 or so, so there shouldn't be any reason why you can't volunteer on the weekends or in the evenings.

I would like, however, to emphasize something that has disconcerted me from the first moment I read the original post: choose something that you are EXCITED ABOUT and INTERESTED IN, not something that you think will look "good" on your application! The question that you've posed to us -- should I do this or that, which would be better for my app? -- is really irrelevant, because the sort of activities you're describing should be pursued out of an interest within you. If you run through the motions of selecting an experience to cross it off the medical school app checklist, the results will be counterproductive: medical schools can tell the difference between people who become involved b/c they think they're supposed to, and those who do so because they're passionate about a subject. And believe me, they prefer the former.

On that note, allow your own interests to guide you when making your decision. Choose an activity that you could conceive of continuing beyond a few months. I'll give you an example. . . I've volunteered in the pediatric department at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center for two years, b/c I absolutely love the people and the children there, and in fact I applied to medical schools in New York, in some part, so that I could stay and continue to volunteer during medical school! During the summers, however, we see a lot of students who come and volunteer for a three month stint. . . they're not very engaged with the children, and then they always leave in the fall, obviously not bringing very much away from the experience. For them, volunteering at Memorial was just a matter of "checking it off the list," and they didn't select it based upon their own passions. Another activity -- one that possibly they could have realized if they had put more thought into their actions -- would probably have been better suited to such volunteers. It's pretty apparent when they leave that they haven't taken much away from it.

So please, let your own passions be your guide!

Best of luck to you in your decision. .. have a wonderful summer!

 

[relatively prime]

Oh come on MorningLight... I mean that's a thing nice to say... but if I let my passions be my guilde I would have been sunbathing and just chilling out with my husband every summer... it's ok to do something once in awhile just to improve your application. I mean really... how many people do you know who actually like doing 9 hours of boring lab work everyday?

I mean certainly most things you do should be because you really want to... but I think it's ok to do something once of twice that you don't like just because it would be a weakness in your application if you didn't. I

 

[MUN2005]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by relatively prime:
•Try to do both!! I'd disagree with the other poster... research is more important. Mainly because research oppertunities tend to be harder to get than volunteer oppertunities... you can pretty much always find volunteer work. Take the research job and volunteer somewhere in the evenings or on weekends. I got a volunteer job at a clinic where I could come in on fridays after 6pm! It was great.

Once again... try to do both! You need both to be a strong applicant.

good luck •••••My point is that all other admissions criteria aside, in regards to research OR volunteer, volunteer is usually more important, unless you are going MD/PhD. I know way more people who got in to all different tier schools with volunteer experience and no research than vice versa, no?

 

[MorningLight2100]

relatively prime, I'm only speaking from experience. My stats were not as stellar as some, but interviewers & adcoms provided me positive feedback b/c they appreciated the fact that I did a lot of activities because I LOVED them. And yes, believe it or not, I really enjoyed my thesis lab work. . . which sometimes stretched to as long as 12 hours a day.

Take a look at my signature. . . you'll see that what I'm talking about is really at the forefront of my mind. I think that there is a distinct difference seeking out experiences for the sake of becoming a better doctor. .. and seeking out activities to "get in." I see so many students who focus entirely on the latter, and wind up wasting away their undergraduate years worrying about their applications. .. and they ultimately wind up unhappy.

It's just my two cents, that's all. No need to become exasperated.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by MUN2005:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by relatively prime:
•Try to do both!! I'd disagree with the other poster... research is more important. Mainly because research oppertunities tend to be harder to get than volunteer oppertunities... you can pretty much always find volunteer work. Take the research job and volunteer somewhere in the evenings or on weekends. I got a volunteer job at a clinic where I could come in on fridays after 6pm! It was great.

Once again... try to do both! You need both to be a strong applicant.

good luck •••••My point is that all other admissions criteria aside, in regards to research OR volunteer, volunteer is usually more important, unless you are going MD/PhD. I know way more people who got in to all different tier schools with volunteer experience and no research than vice versa, no?•••••not necessarily true. For example, what if the research involves working with a terminally ill population (where you're not only doing research, but also in touch with the lifestyles/needs of that subject population). I got to do something like this, and it was wonderful! Or what if you're just doing some plain old clnical research with doctors and getting to know the behind the scenes action. I have *never* volunteered in a health care setting (and I am beginning to wonder if that's a good thing) but I know that what i got to do in research (while I got PAID!!) was far better than doing something like ER volunteer where I got to stock shelves and carry urine. Again, it comes down to (and i keep repeating myself), WHAT are you doing IN that research project that counts.

 

[Lavndrrose]

Thank you Morninglight for your wonderful advice.

Relatively Prime, I know Morninglight is too humble to say this, but you should see the acceptances she had. <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> Maybe it would be good idea once in awhile to listen and appreciate the advices that the "veterans" have to offer.

 

[missbonnie]

I agree with morninglight that too many worry about their stats, their activities, whatever.
I've avoided volunteering for many years because at that time I didnt find anything really interesting and I did not want to do something "for the application." I also didn't want to do something that I felt wasn't really making a difference. Because that's what I'm taking a stand for, for making a difference. What I've realized in the past few months is that you don't need the "MD" to start making a difference in people's lives. The qualities that I want in myself and other doctors are compassion, humility, and love of humanity. So..my advice would be, to stop worrying and just do what you want to do. I've just started 2 volunteer opportunities and love it!

-bonnie

 

[MUN2005]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Tweetie_bird:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by MUN2005:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by relatively prime:
•Try to do both!! I'd disagree with the other poster... research is more important. Mainly because research oppertunities tend to be harder to get than volunteer oppertunities... you can pretty much always find volunteer work. Take the research job and volunteer somewhere in the evenings or on weekends. I got a volunteer job at a clinic where I could come in on fridays after 6pm! It was great.

Once again... try to do both! You need both to be a strong applicant.

good luck •••••My point is that all other admissions criteria aside, in regards to research OR volunteer, volunteer is usually more important, unless you are going MD/PhD. I know way more people who got in to all different tier schools with volunteer experience and no research than vice versa, no?•••••not necessarily true. For example, what if the research involves working with a terminally ill population (where you're not only doing research, but also in touch with the lifestyles/needs of that subject population). I got to do something like this, and it was wonderful! Or what if you're just doing some plain old clnical research with doctors and getting to know the behind the scenes action. I have *never* volunteered in a health care setting (and I am beginning to wonder if that's a good thing) but I know that what i got to do in research (while I got PAID!!) was far better than doing something like ER volunteer where I got to stock shelves and carry urine. Again, it comes down to (and i keep repeating myself), WHAT are you doing IN that research project that counts.•••••Unlike your *specific* case, I was making a generalization.

 

[Yogi Bear]

Morninglight:

•••quote:••• medical schools can tell the difference between people who become involved b/c they think they're supposed to, and those who do so because they're passionate about a subject. And believe me, they prefer the former.
••••i'm curious as to how they can tell? i mean, if you volunteered in a hospital and you're passionatea bout it, how would your comments be different from someone who isn't passionate about it? i think it's more of how well your can present yourself.

 

[sandflea]

tweetie bird, your research experiences were unique in that they combined hands-on clinical work with actual research. i think what most of us are considering as 'research' here is basic old benchwork with no contact with the real world, so to speak, as doubledigits referred to his offer to work in an organic chemistry lab.

 

[Forensic Chick]

I think you guys also have to remember that volunteering doesn't have to be "medically related." I've volunteered over 3000 hours in law enforcement and with my EMT cert, I've had many, many patient contacts. I've had my clinical experience through my volunteer experience (which I absolutely love) -- so there are ways to enjoy the "required" volunteer/clinical experiences.