Residency in Australia or New Zealand

[Goose...Fraba]

Hello!

A question that I pray someone will be able to answer. My sister and basically my whole family lives in Australia/ New Zealand, but most are in Brizzy.

I was just wondering, as US medical grads, is it even possible to do your residency training in Australia or New Zealand instead of here? My sister sent me this link. Anyone have any ideas?

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/rmo2006/RMO2006.pdf

If we did residency here, would we be able to do a fellowship there? would we be able to practice, or maybe even take a academic job there (working for a medical school I presume?) I miss my family and was just wondering what my options were, I hate being continents away from each other.

thanks

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[craig_rt]

Yes it is possible.

Have a look at http://www.medeserv.com.au/pmc/students/info.htm (sorry, it is NSW not QLD, but it should give you the idea.)

Basically Aus graduates are given first bite of the cherry. But There are usually enough places for everyone. As long as you don't want to go to the top hospital you will geta place. There is probably hope for transfer etc after you get into the system, so don't worry that you stuck in the boonies forever.

Craig

 

[MD Dreams]

Yes it is possible.

Have a look at http://www.medeserv.com.au/pmc/students/info.htm (sorry, it is NSW not QLD, but it should give you the idea.)

Basically Aus graduates are given first bite of the cherry. But There are usually enough places for everyone. As long as you don't want to go to the top hospital you will geta place. There is probably hope for transfer etc after you get into the system, so don't worry that you stuck in the boonies forever.

Craig

What do they mean by interstate schools? Would a carribean medical school count as one of these?

Also, how difficult would it be to get a residency position say in orthopedic surgery? How would one go about doing this? Thank you.

 

[sjkpark]

What do they mean by interstate schools? Would a carribean medical school count as one of these?

Also, how difficult would it be to get a residency position say in orthopedic surgery? How would one go about doing this? Thank you.

Interstate refers to medical schools outside of the state but nevertheless accredited by Australian Medical Council. So interstate to Queensland is any medical schools in Australia and New Zealand (both NZ medical schools are accredited by Australian Medical Council, in conjunction with Medical Council of New Zealand) but outside of Queensland.

Ortho is extremely difficult. First of all, it's a minimum 8-year training programme here in A/NZ. You have to do minimum 1 year of house officer (PGY-1) and apply to become basic surgical trainee (BST). You do 2 years of BST and write FRACS Part I examination, which I do not know much about, then you apply to become advanced surgical trainee (AST) - orthopaedics. There are many more people who want to do orthopaedic surgery than there are places available. Of course, your entry to AST depends on your performance in BST, so many people try to defer entering BST until their PGY-3 year. Many people do 1-2 year fellowship after finishing their AST in orthopaedics in order to become a consultant.

 

[spherical]

Hello!

I was just wondering, as US medical grads, is it even possible to do your residency training in Australia or New Zealand instead of here?

Virtually, impossible! Getting any specialty training is going would be a longshot. Much less surgery. Much less orthopedics.

And it doesn't matter how accomplished and gifted you are. Believe it or not, brilliance (especially in a foreigner) can even mean career sabotage in Australia. There is an poignant account of this phenomenon in: Walk on Water: Inside an Elite Pediatric Surgical Unit by Michael Ruhlman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/002-2983096-8108848?v=glance&s=books The central character is Roger Mee, a New Zealand born and educated surgeon at the very top of his field. After training in the US, he took a position in Melbourne and turned what was basically a third world program into one of the world's best in a very short time. He is now at the Cleveland Clinic. In this book, there is a candid account of what I've heard described quite often (perhaps not quite this candidly). His surgical ICU patients being ignored and left to die? Babies? Discouraged from publishing his mortality figures (he published anyway) because the world wouldn't believe them?

If we did residency here, would we be able to do a fellowship there? would we be able to practice, or maybe even take a academic job there (working for a medical school I presume?)

Yes, very possible! Especially as most AUS/NZ surgeons "need" fellowships in the US (the major league) for career advancement. After the US has paid to train you, you are a hot commodity. Red Carpet. (Under the right circumstances, exams can be waived; citizenship can happen; you get the idea.)

 

[sjkpark]

Virtually, impossible! Getting any specialty training is going would be a longshot. Much less surgery. Much less orthopedics.

And it doesn't matter how accomplished and gifted you are. Believe it or not, brilliance (especially in a foreigner) can even mean career sabotage in Australia. There is an poignant account of this phenomenon in: Walk on Water: Inside an Elite Pediatric Surgical Unit by Michael Ruhlman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/002-2983096-8108848?v=glance&s=books The central character is Roger Mee, a New Zealand born and educated surgeon at the very top of his field. After training in the US, he took a position in Melbourne and turned what was basically a third world program into one of the world's best in a very short time. He is now at the Cleveland Clinic. In this book, there is a candid account of what I've heard described quite often (perhaps not quite this candidly). His surgical ICU patients being ignored and left to die? Babies? Discouraged from publishing his mortality figures (he published anyway) because the world wouldn't believe them?

I wonder whether this guy is related to Mr. Edward Mee, a neurosurgeon at Auckland City Hospital.

 

[spherical]

I wonder whether this guy is related to Mr. Edward Mee, a neurosurgeon at Auckland City Hospital.

It's been a while since I read the book. But I believe Dr/Mr Roger Mee was a graduate of Otago who did his initial surgical training in Auckland. It's a semi documentary/semi biography piece -- there may be some family info in there.

Also, while I'm at it. While a bored student, I personally witnessed the "destruction" of a brilliant German surgeon, hired to head a high-profile unit at a top Australian university/hospital (personally welcomed by the PM, on the front page of the papers, the full treatment). The surgical and related medical unit were writing his obituary before he even set foot in the OR. For all practical purposes, he was Dead On Arrival. And back to Germany before the year was out. In my opinion, this person's treatment was hostile and very blatant -- sport! I think that his problem was that he was good -- very good. He never stood a chance.

 

[sjkpark]

Virtually, impossible! Getting any specialty training is going would be a longshot. Much less surgery. Much less orthopedics.

BTW, I respectively disagree with you. I think the OP, as an Australian citizen/PR (I assume, considering that he/she wants to be "home") has a good chance of getting into some specialties. For example, it wouldn't be hard to get into basic physician training.

I've seen some overseas graduates (from non-English speaking countries) training in the following specialties in NZ: anaesthetics, emergency medicine, internal medicine (including gastroenterology), paediatrics, O&G, psychiatry, general surgery. Never in orthopaedics. Never in ophtho, rads, ENT... you get the idea.

 

[spherical]

BTW, I respectively disagree with you. I think the OP, as an Australian citizen/PR (I assume, considering that he/she wants to be "home") has a good chance of getting into some specialties. For example, it wouldn't be hard to get into basic physician training.

I've seen some overseas graduates (from non-English speaking countries) training in the following specialties in NZ: anaesthetics, emergency medicine, internal medicine (including gastroenterology), paediatrics, O&G, psychiatry, general surgery. Never in orthopaedics. Never in ophtho, rads, ENT... you get the idea.

I didn't get the impression that the OP was an Australian/Kiwi. I would think an Australian who left to go to the US for med school would have some clue as to the situation back home.

However, you're point is very well taken. If the OP is an Australian who went to the US for medical school, that is a much different situation than the one I envisioned reading the post. And I would agree with you! Furthermore, if that is the situation, I would not put any specialty completely out of reach! (Especially for a Kiwi returning home!)

Thanks

Actually, I just checked out some of the OPs posts -- I'm not sure, but I don't get the impression that he (it's a guy in the avatar) is an Ozzie or Kiwi. What do you think? (In one post, he's a DO who lives on an island in the middle of the Pacific.)

 

[sjkpark]

However, you're point is very well taken. If the OP is an Australian who went to the US for medical school, that is a much different situation than the one I envisioned reading the post. And I would agree with you! Furthermore, if that is the situation, I would not put any specialty completely out of reach! (Especially for a Kiwi returning home!)

I think FRACS ortho programme would be "almost" completely out of reach for anybody who went to med school outside Australia or New Zealand, regardless of PR status. More so than any other competitive specialties (we get very little exposures to ENT, rads, ophtho anyway).

In my experience, the boys (I don't know any girls) who want ortho know it as soon as they do ortho in 4th year and that's when the schmoozing and arse-licking begins. A US graduate, no matter what school they graduated from, can't compete with that!

 

[Retinamark]

I think FRACS ortho programme would be "almost" completely out of reach for anybody who went to med school outside Australia or New Zealand, regardless of PR status. More so than any other competitive specialties (we get very little exposures to ENT, rads, ophtho anyway).

In my experience, the boys (I don't know any girls) who want ortho know it as soon as they do ortho in 4th year and that's when the schmoozing and arse-licking begins. A US graduate, no matter what school they graduated from, can't compete with that!

Ortho in Australia is definitely extremely competitive, but a foreigner who speaks perfect English (eg US / UK grad) is in a completely different situation to someone who does not have perfect English. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about your chances. If you start at a hospital in Brisbane, eg RBH or PA & do your internship & BST there, & work hard & impress people, you would definitely have a chance at a non-training ortho job in a peripheral hospital. If you excel at that & are a nice guy who fits in with the ortho culture, you would definitely have a good chance. It is a long road though & most people do at least 2 years of non-training ortho jobs before getting a coveted ortho training position.
Good luck

 

[Retinamark]

Virtually, impossible! ....
Believe it or not, brilliance (especially in a foreigner) can even mean career sabotage in Australia.

You may have seen this happen once or twice, but I have seen many international people be really successful in Australia. There are 2 US trained ophthalmologists at the Eye & Ear Hospital in Melbourne & they have been universally supported & are both very successful. I know a couple of South African trained ophthalmologists who also have been very successful.

Medicine is a very competitive field in Australia, as it is in the US, but an individual's talent & personality has a much greater impact on their success than their country of origin.

PS: Thanks for the tip about the book - it looks very interesting & since it was only $1.40 on Amazon, I figure I can't really go wrong & I've ordered a copy.

 

[sjkpark]

Ortho in Australia is definitely extremely competitive, but a foreigner who speaks perfect English (eg US / UK grad) is in a completely different situation to someone who does not have perfect English. I wouldn't be so pessimistic about your chances. If you start at a hospital in Brisbane, eg RBH or PA & do your internship & BST there, & work hard & impress people, you would definitely have a chance at a non-training ortho job in a peripheral hospital. If you excel at that & are a nice guy who fits in with the ortho culture, you would definitely have a good chance. It is a long road though & most people do at least 2 years of non-training ortho jobs before getting a coveted ortho training position.
Good luck

I HEARD that there's limit to how many times you can apply for training position, and how many years you can spend as a non-training registrar. When I was a clueless student doing ortho last year, I remember a senior orthopaedic reg complaining that he couldn't have gotten into training programme under current regulation.

I think we both agree that it would be hell of a long and rough road than most overseas graduates think it would be.

 

[DOdoc11]

Does anyone know of any US-trained DOs who have gone to Australia and New Zealand for residency training? I am an Aussie citizen who came to the US for med school and wants to train back in Australian or NZ.

 

[sjkpark]

Does anyone know of any US-trained DOs who have gone to Australia and New Zealand for residency training? I am an Aussie citizen who came to the US for med school and wants to train back in Australian or NZ.

I know one GP who is practising in New Zealand with a DO degree. Even though she practised for years in US as a family physician, she had to write Primex (College of GP exam).

Also I personally don't care and I think it's unfair, but I heard many people talking about how she's an osteopath, not a "real" doctor.... so you may get a fair bit of that.

 

[DOdoc11]

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any contact info for this GP? I would love to speak to someone who has already been through the process.

I'm a tough girl, I can take name calling!

I know one GP who is practising in New Zealand with a DO degree. Even though she practised for years in US as a family physician, she had to write Primex (College of GP exam).

Also I personally don't care and I think it's unfair, but I heard many people talking about how she's an osteopath, not a "real" doctor.... so you may get a fair bit of that.