Residency: Your school makes a difference!

[dr_almondjoy_do]

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This is something all students need to consider when they are applying to medical school. What you do and where you go during those four or five years will make all the difference when applying for residency programs. This is the residency (match) list for our recent graduating class of 2003.

I know this is a pre-allopathic form, but our match list was pretty good:

Anesthesia: (26 total!)
Cleveland Clinic
Einstein, NY (3)
Univ of Chicago
Univ of Wisconsin
Yale
NYU
Suny Downstate (5)
Maimonides, NY
Metroheath, OH
Temple, Philadelphia, PA
Univ of Mass, MA
UConn, CT
Univ Buffalo, NY
Metrohealth Med Ctr (OH)
Stony Brook, NY
Westchester Med Ctr, NY (NYMC)

Emergency Medicine:
Beth Israel, New York, NY
LIJ/ Einstein, NY (2)
North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset, NY
Univ at Buffalo (2)
Newark Beth Israel, NJ
Albert Einstein, Philadelphia, PA
St. Barnabus, NY (6)
St. Barnabus, NY EM/IM Combined
UMDNJ, Kennedy Memorial (EM/IM Combined)

Family Practice:
Good Samaritan, NY
New York United Hospital
Mercy Hospital, PA
St. Claires, NY, NY
Union Hospital, NJ (2)
Northside Hospital, FL
St. Barnabus, NY (3)
St. Josephs, Syracuse NY
Overlook Hospital, NJ (2)
Somerset Med Ctr, NJ
UMDNJ (2)
Univ of Pittsburgh

General Surgery:
Doctor's Hospital, OH
Stony Brook, NY
Maimonides Med Ctr, NY
Nassau Univ Med Ctr, NY
St. Vincents, NY, NY
Wyckoff Heights Med Ctr, NY, NY
St. Barnabus, NY

OTO-Facial/Plastic Surgery
Northeast Regional Medical Ctr, MO

Internal Medicine:
Beth Israel, New York, NY (4)
George Washington Univ, DC
Hershey, Penn State
Kaiser Perm, CA
Lennox Hill, NY (2)
Loma Linda, CA
LIJ, NY
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, NY (2)
North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset (2)
New York Hospital, NY, NY (6)
St Josephs, AZ
SUNY Stony Brook, NY
Univ of Southern California
Univ of Tennessee, Nashville
UMNDNJ- Newark (2)
UMDNJ- Robert Wood (4)
Univ of Mass, Worcester, MA
Westchester Medical Ctr, NY
Winthrop Univ Hospital, NY (6)
Yale University, New Haven CT (2)

Neurology:
Albany Med, NY
LIJ, NY
North Shore Univ Hospital, Manhasset, NY
UMDNJ- Newark

NeuroSurgery:
Doctors Hospital, OH (2)

OB/Gyn
Albany Med (3)
Beth Israel, NY, NY
MCP Hahnemann, Philadelphia, PA
Michigan State, Lansing, MI
St Francis, CT
St. Vincents, NY, NY
Univ Buffalo, NY

Optho:
Univ Buffalo, NY

Orthopedic Surgery:
St. Vincents, New York, NY (NYMC)

Pathology:
St. Lukes-Roosevelt, NY
SUNY, Syracuse, NY

Peds:
LIJ, NY
Good Samaritan, NY (2)
Stony Brook (3)
Suny Downstate (3)
Univ Buffalo
Winthrop Univ Hospital (3)

PM&R:
Harvard
Einstein, NY
LIJ, NY (2)
Mt Sinai School of Medicine, NY
NYU School of Medicine
St. Vincents, NY, NY
Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor

Psychiatry:
LIJ, NY
Maimonides, NY
St. Lukes-Roosevelt- Columbia (2)
Stony Brook (2)
Thomas Jefferson, Philadelphia, PA
Univ of Mass

Radiology (Diagnostic)
MCP Hahnemann
Harlem Hospital, NY, NY
Nassau Univ Med Ctr, NY
St. Barnabus, NY, NY


__________________
NYCOM class of 2006
(That's the New York College of OSTEOPATHIC Medicine)

 

[birdie]

I think that's the best match list I've ever seen for an osteopathic school!

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

I know! And I'm so glad to be part of it!

It's better than some Allopathic schools that I've seen, and you can see alot of the popular allopathic hospitals listed (some of which people are still waiting on for a response letter.... 🙁 )

 

[meanderson]

I dunno...I guess it's good for a DO school, but I'm not blown away. No derm. No ent.

Between dermatology, ent, ortho, optho, and urology you have 2 whole matches. A good school(#15-30) might have 15+ of these.

That's one of the best DO matches I've seen, but I still don't think it is as good as Tufts, Boston U, etc.....

 

[womansurg]

That's a great match list, meanderson, for any school. Congrats.

 

[Iron Horse]

6 IM at NY Hosp? Which NY Hosp? I doubt they're all at NY-Presby.

 

[skypilot]

When you get your prized residency and discover that your colleagues at Yale, the Cleveland Clinic, and Harvard include D.O. grads from NYCOM!

 

[WatchingWaiting]

You have around 160 people on your match list, with a quick-glance revealing 4 of them at top-20 schools, along with no dermatologists, 1 opthamologist, and a trickle of the other super-desirable residencies.

If you're trying to argue that you can go to an osteopathic med school, graduate in the top 3% of your class, and get a good residency, I guess you've made your point.

 

[merlin17]

I'd also be really interested in knowing which of those programs are osteopathic and which are allopathic. I haven't heard of many of these places.

I'm pretty sure that optho match is DO only...

On another note I wouldn't be surprised if I were in a PM+R residency at Harvard and my collegues were DOs...I would imagine this is a specialty in which the DO training is particularly well suited 🙂

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

"You have around 160 people on your match list, with a quick-glance revealing 4 of them at top-20 schools, along with no dermatologists, 1 opthamologist, and a trickle of the other super-desirable residencies.

If you're trying to argue that you can go to an osteopathic med school, graduate in the top 3% of your class, and get a good residency, I guess you've made your point."


This is a partial list of approx. 300 students (this is a random sampling too) that "has about 4 D.O.s having residencies in top 20 schools at a QUICK glance." 4 less spots for the allopath that went to school expecting to have a spot in an allopathic residency.... I say that is very impressive the way you speak of it...

Osteopaths are able to apply and match for both allopathic and osteopathic residency programs. We can take both the USMLE and COMLEX. This equates to more options in the future for a future doctor. Allopathic students can only take the USMLE.

We are trained to treat primary care situations while the allopath is geared towards research and specialization. You choose your cause, I'll choose mine. Most of us go into primary care, and the DOs that do go on to specialize do an AMAZING job matching in YOUR hospitals...

I just wanted to show how good my school was doing. No need for all the static....

 

[Wrigleyville]

Originally posted by dr_almondjoy_do
We are trained to treat primary care situations while the allopath is geared towards research and specialization. You choose your cause, I'll choose mine. Most of us go into primary care, and the DOs that do go on to specialize do an AMAZING job matching in YOUR hospitals...

Still bitter about not getting into an MD program? You are doing a disservice to the people in your class who chose DO on its own merits by coming over here and bragging about all the people who bailed out of osteopathy the first opportunity they had. DOs will always be the ugly girl at the prom until people like you quit walking around with a chip on their shoulder over the school they went to. Just be happy with the training you received, get out there and be the best doctor you can, and don't be so defensive over where you were in the past.

Wrigley

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
If you're trying to argue that you can go to an osteopathic med school, graduate in the top 3% of your class, and get a good residency, I guess you've made your point.

I have to disagree with this statement. All the residencies on the list are good residencies. Not everyone wants to be a neurosurgeon at Hopkins. We need more docs in Family Practice.

When a doc who took care of the health of an entire community looks back on their life they can feel pride and satisfaction knowing they really made a difference.

 

[Mike59]

Originally posted by dr_almondjoy_do
We can take both the USMLE and COMLEX. This equates to more options in the future for a future doctor. Allopathic students can only take the USMLE.

HOLY ****!!! MDs aren't allowed to take the COMLEX?!? Why didn't someone tell me this before I wasted my money applying to only MD schools?? 🙄

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with humble DOs. However, don't come in a pre-MD forum and think you can convince us that the DO track provides for more opportunity. I smell inferiority complex all the way in your posts. Settle down, every school has people match in decent residencies.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by Wrigleyville
You are doing a disservice to the people in your class who chose DO on its own merits by coming over here and bragging about all the people who bailed out of osteopathy the first opportunity they had.

Wrigley

Not to fan the flames but most DOs do allopathic residencies (over 65%). I don't think it is considered bailing out is it?

The only difference in the undergraduate training is that osteopaths have additional hours learning manipulation therapy.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Re: All the residencies on the list are good residencies.

That's truly a BS statement. Dr. Nuts trolled on this board with a self-esteem problem related to having graduated from having an osteopathic medical school and likely having wanted to have graduated from an allopathic school. She, clearly, doesn't think all residencies are "good" residencies or she wouldn't have posted that match list with her commentary. In fact, if all residencies were "good," why should a pre-med four years removed from picking a residency look at match lists at all?

Perhaps the terms "competive to gain admission to" or "desirable to many candidates" would be more precise, but it is pretty clearly understood that these are what's meant by the term "good residency."

 

[Wrigleyville]

Originally posted by skypilot
Not to fan the flames but most DOs do allopathic residencies (over 65%). I don't think it is considered bailing out is it?

The only difference in the undergraduate training is that osteopaths have additional hours learning manipulation therapy.

So your theory is that the three people on that match list who matched into choice allopathic residencies were forced into them for want of DO residencies? That sounds highly suspect to me -- I doubt the guy or girl who matched at Yale failed to get into a program at DO_School_001.

Wrigley

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by Wrigleyville
So your theory is that the three people on that match list who matched into choice allopathic residencies were forced into them for want of DO residencies?
Wrigley

Nah, I'm not disputing that the best and certainly the most prestigious specialty residencies for the most part are at the allopathic institutions and that DOs are competing for them right alongside the MDs.

I'm just saying that just because someone got their undergraduate medical training at an osteopathic school doesn't mean they are betraying their profession by going allopathic for their residency.

Any perceived dividing line between the professions has crumbled when most D.O.s are ending up in allopathic residencies.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
Re: All the residencies on the list are good residencies.

Perhaps the terms "competive to gain admission to" or "desirable to many candidates" would be more precise, but it is pretty clearly understood that these are what's meant by the term "good residency."

Hey I will never dispute that if you want the most competitive residencies you should go to med school at Hopkins, Stanford, or Harvard.

I guess I am just saying that if you don't get into one of those schools and you still want to be a doctor, you can do ok at NYCOM. None of the residencies on the list is "bad" and some of them are pretty awesome.

Kick butt on your boards at NYCOM and you could end up training with the best of the best. Choke at Hopkins and you could end up training at some of the "less desirable" residencies.🙄

 

[mattie113]

i havent been checking the osteopath forum at all but... was there an allopath who started all this by posting an allopath match list to show off/rub it in? just curious as to which side of this nominal medical dividing line has the festering inferiority complex.

 

[oceandocDO]

Alrighty folks, I'm a second year at nycom and an apparent classmate of the OP. While I think the OP was playing with fire with the tone of that post, I imagine the intent was not to boost self esteem or to incite a flame war, which was inevitable. Sometimes people like to share good news, but apparently if it's not good news to the rest of the world, it shouldnt be good news to the OP either. None-the-less, I laugh at how many of you pick at straws, see the half empty portion of the glass, and present utterly ridiculous arguments as evidence. The fact is, the above match list will compete with 80% of MD schools in the land, and yes, many of you are included in that group. Do osteopathic physicians at times suffer from an inferiority complex? Nope. It's D.O. STUDENTS that suffer from an inferiority complex because of places like this. Once they get into the real world they realize the premed mentality evaporates quickly.

The truth of the matter is, 100% of the people, MD or DO, on this board suffer from an inferiority complex of some sort. Some feel inferior because they didnt get into a "top 10" school, others a "top 20" school. Some feel inferior because they've never had a real girlfriend, or boyfriend. Some feel inferior because they suck at math. Others feel bad because their BMI doesnt fit what society sees as "acceptable". But, apparently something everyone's good at is telling everyone else that they're better, than everyone else.

What people and premeds fail to realize is that there's a slow revolution underway in medical education. The teaching of medicine hasnt changed much in 100 years, since the Flexnor Report basically. There's a large conference this summer, led by D.O.s, called the Future of Medical Education, the first of its kind, with about 40 MD schools attending. It's in Maryland. Check it out. The medical profession has realized that D.O.s have something to offer, and for those who still hold onto their safety blanket of believing 3 points lower on an MCAT = bad doctor, good luck to you. Moral of the story, medical school is what you make of it. Only so much fits on a spoon.

 

[skypilot]

put another log on the fire!😀

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by Wrigleyville
Still bitter about not getting into an MD program? You are doing a disservice to the people in your class who chose DO on its own merits by coming over here and bragging about all the people who bailed out of osteopathy the first opportunity they had. DOs will always be the ugly girl at the prom until people like you quit walking around with a chip on their shoulder over the school they went to. Just be happy with the training you received, get out there and be the best doctor you can, and don't be so defensive over where you were in the past.

Wrigley

I didn't think that by posting the accomplishments of my upperclassmen on a pre-allopathic board that I would stir so much contreversy. For anyone curious, I turned down THREE allopathic medical schools (SUNY Downstate being one of them) to go to NYCOM, which was my first choice. This decision was based on a doctor's visit I had prior to accepting and declining schools.

And I didn't have to do a post-bacc or grad school to do it either, so spare me with all the melodrama. I was Psych major straight out of undergrad. I say this to all the other insecure people who have assumptions on my education....

Since we all get PAID the SAME when we get out, and get to serve the same community in the same way, with the same training (in addition to my OMT training), I wouldn't see why there would be any bitterness on my part because I was posting where my school matches, like everyone else on this board. I hope you wouldn't think that you'd be working over a DO b/c you have MD at the end of your name tag, did you? In the wards, we are the same. To a patient in need, we are the same...

It sounds like you may be so sheltered and uninformed in your little search for the attention you may get by your posting that you don't inform yourself on the latest trends in medicine. Go look it up somewhere before you let your fellow classmates (including myself) down with your comments.

We may have to work together someday if you are so lucky to get to work in the New York Area like I'll be...

Show a little tact, will you? And that is coming from a future DO that isn't bitter for not being in an MD school.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Alrighty folks, I'm a second year at nycom and an apparent classmate of the OP. While I think the OP was playing with fire with the tone of that post, I imagine the intent was not to boost self esteem or to incite a flame war, which was inevitable. Sometimes people like to share good news, but apparently if it's not good news to the rest of the world, it shouldnt be good news to the OP either. None-the-less, I laugh at how many of you pick at straws, see the half empty portion of the glass, and present utterly ridiculous arguments as evidence. The fact is, the above match list will compete with 80% of MD schools in the land, and yes, many of you are included in that group. Do osteopathic physicians at times suffer from an inferiority complex? Nope. It's D.O. STUDENTS that suffer from an inferiority complex because of places like this. Once they get into the real world they realize the premed mentality evaporates quickly.

The truth of the matter is, 100% of the people, MD or DO, on this board suffer from an inferiority complex of some sort. Some feel inferior because they didnt get into a "top 10" school, others a "top 20" school. Some feel inferior because they've never had a real girlfriend, or boyfriend. Some feel inferior because they suck at math. Others feel bad because their BMI doesnt fit what society sees as "acceptable". But, apparently something everyone's good at is telling everyone else that they're better, than everyone else.

What people and premeds fail to realize is that there's a slow revolution underway in medical education. The teaching of medicine hasnt changed much in 100 years, since the Flexnor Report basically. There's a large conference this summer, led by D.O.s, called the Future of Medical Education, the first of its kind, with about 40 MD schools attending. It's in Maryland. Check it out. The medical profession has realized that D.O.s have something to offer, and for those who still hold onto their safety blanket of believing 3 points lower on an MCAT = bad doctor, good luck to you. Moral of the story, medical school is what you make of it. Only so much fits on a spoon.

Thank you, Oceandoc, I really had no idea there were so many med school students on a pre-med webboard. I just wanted to help the undergrads make an informed decision on how they want to practice medicine.

Some people need a security blanket at the end of their names in order to feel important. I'm glad I don't. I know what I'm doing this for.

I hope all of you that read this see how ugly a little thread can get when people are not thinking coherently. This will be my last posting on this topic. Good luck, Wrigley, in your pursuit for professionalism. Doctors like you will keep my offices full. Maybe we'll be on the same rotations if you are so lucky to be able to get a New York rotation!

 

[Wrigleyville]

Originally posted by dr_almondjoy_do
I didn't think that by posting the accomplishments of my upperclassmen on a pre-allopathic board that I would stir so much contreversy. For anyone curious, I turned down THREE allopathic medical schools (SUNY Downstate being one of them) to go to NYCOM, which was my first choice. This decision was based on a doctor's visit I had prior to accepting and declining schools.

And I didn't have to do a post-bacc or grad school to do it either, so spare me with all the melodrama. I was Psych major straight out of undergrad. I say this to all the other insecure people who have assumptions on my education....

Since we all get PAID the SAME when we get out, and get to serve the same community in the same way, with the same training (in addition to my OMT training), I wouldn't see why there would be any bitterness on my part because I was posting where my school matches, like everyone else on this board. I hope you wouldn't think that you'd be working over a DO b/c you have MD at the end of your name tag, did you? In the wards, we are the same. To a patient in need, we are the same...

It sounds like you may be so sheltered and uninformed in your little search for the attention you may get by your posting that you don't inform yourself on the latest trends in medicine. Go look it up somewhere before you let your fellow classmates (including myself) down with your comments.

We may have to work together someday if you are so lucky to get to work in the New York Area like I'll be...

Show a little tact, will you? And that is coming from a future DO that isn't bitter for not being in an MD school.

Show me the post in the pre-osteopathic board where some student at an allopathic school posts their match list for everyone to gawk at. You won't find it -- because no one feels it necessary to try and show you up. Most match lists are presented on this board as "here, take a look at this, maybe it will help some of you decide where to go to school." You came in here and posted that list to brag over it. That's poor form, and shows very little of the tact you claim to value.

And I find it funny that in reply to my post telling DOs to quit being so defensive about their training and degree YOU POST A LONG-ASS DEFENSE OF YOUR TRAINING AND DEGREE. I know your training is the same, you know your training is the same. But as long as you feel the need to keep justifying your decision to get a DO to yourself and the world, few people are going to believe you.

Wrigley

P.S thank God we get "PAID the SAME" since that's what it's all about, right??

 

[Tamomo]

To the OP.

This post was just asking for trouble and you knew it...most people at your stage in their education stay away from petty stuff like this.

 

[DW]

Originally posted by Tamomo
To the OP.

This post was just asking for trouble and you knew it...most people at your stage in their education stay away from petty stuff like this.

amen

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by Tamomo
To the OP.

This post was just asking for trouble and you knew it...most people at your stage in their education stay away from petty stuff like this.

Actually, no I didn't think that by posting a match list on a pre-allopathic board that it would cause a whole lot of trouble... if it wasn't for me finding things like my posting on a webboard back when I was looking, then I wouldn't have made the decision I made.

It's just what works for me.

I like to see all sides of a story, and this turned out to be an ugly monster of a thread when it didn't have to be.

Maybe someone out there has benefitted from this thread since so many people look at, I don't know. But I wasn't the one bad-mouthing any school or any suffixes, other people were.

So, I'm not sorry for making my post and I'll probably do it every match from now on, regardless of what other people think.

 

[oceandocDO]

I agree that posting the list here in an antagonistic tone was open to causing a war. That being said, those that live in glass house shouldnt throw stones. It was just like a week ago that an MD student posted "Here's Why Only Allo" and proceeded to post Stanford's match list in response to a premed asking "why only allo". Please. Sorry, dont have time to search for the link, but I'm sure many of you read it.

I think Slickness hit the nail on the head with his post. The underlying problem here is that MD students feel slighted that people who didnt "work" as hard in undergrad are now outperforming them in medical school (and an osteopathic medical school for that matter- god forbid!), doing better on the boards, getting better letters, and hence getting damn fine residencies. Hence, instead of saying, nice job, NYCOM, you go and say, "Well, only 1 matched into MD optho, I'm still not impressed". Whatever. Since you're so into statistics, I've said this before and I'll say it again... the middle 50% of accepted students from either school are statistically not that different. It's the upper Ivies and the newer D.O. schools that tend to sway the curves a bit.

Anyway, to the OP, try not to be as antagonistic. I realize preMD students often come to the osteo boards to flame and criticize, but that doesnt mean everyone has to.

back to boards.

 

[gotgirth]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Moral of the story, medical school is what you make of it. Only so much fits on a spoon.

But there is no spoon....

...sorry saw the matrix yesterday

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by Slickness
I still find it so surprising when people turn down a MD for a DO.

For me, I didn't pick DO over MD, or MD over DO. I picked the school based on location, student body, whether I'll be happy there or not, family support, reputation, facilities, faculty, etc.

When people ask me why I'm picking PCOM over MD schools - I correct them by saying I'm picking PCOM over other MD and DO schools. PCOM was the right fit for me.

NYCOM's match list is impressive. But to say "XXX School of Medicine is more impressive" is the wrong attitude. Kinda reminds me of that childhood song "everything you can do, I can do better." It just seems childish to me.

However, the OP could have chosen a better way to post the list. Perhaps by saying "hey premeds - I know some are you are hesistant about applying to DO schools because you're afraid it might limit your option - well, here's the match list for NYCOM" would have been better.

We're not in the locker room, and comparing match list to see who's better is like taking out the ruler and seeing who's longer.

 

[merlin17]

Originally posted by group_theory


However, the OP could have chosen a better way to post the list. Perhaps by saying "hey premeds - I know some are you are hesistant about applying to DO schools because you're afraid it might limit your option - well, here's the match list for NYCOM" would have been better.

Nicely put...

I think it is nice to give credit to your school's accomplishments. But you need to leave it at that if you want others to congratulate you instead of attack you.

I've reread this thread a few times, and the trend I see is a few pre-do's jumping to say, haha we are doing better than you (come on, no one takes kindly to that). With this is attitude, it is ridiculous to expect much other than criticism unless you were posting a match list that simply blew even those with little experience analyzing match lists (pretty much everyone on this board, MD + DO) away.

 

[Barbara]

The facts:

1.) students accepted to DO schools have poorer GPA and MCAt scores ie I went to undergrade, where lots of people went to DO program instead of MD program; since I have taken several classes with them in my undergraduate, I have seen their approach to studying (either lazy, careless or simply they don't know); Simply said even before I knew they were going to DO school, in my eyes, they were very bad students, their grades from lab reports, class exams were 30 points below mine, etc.

This however does not mean that all DO students are like that, maybe it's just the bread from my university, eventhought it would be hard to believe. But I can tell you, that those DO's that I know were always typing their biochem or genetics lab reports 1-2 hours before we were supposed to turn them in, copying them from each other, while I spent days figure out how the things work, learn the theory,then link it to the experimental reasults and if discrepancies happen, explain why in a intelligent way, not like at that time future DO's did "error occured due to experimental errors ". What type of b***t is that?

2.) DO's boards are much easier than MD's; I can say so because my husband is an MD and we and his friends had a discussion about how these boards compare

3.) someone prefers natural healing and manipulations versus allopathy; that's fine I respect that, but I don't believe in any natural powers and manipulations, just like I don't in chiropractic medicine.

 

[group_theory]

Hmmmm, let's tackle each issue one at a time

Issue One: DO schools have lower GPA and MCAT scores than MD schools

Response: True. However, there are some MD schools with lower GPA and MCAT than DO schools so one shouldn't make generalized statements.

Issue Two: The lazy cheats at your undergrad went to DO so in your eyes, DO students are poor students.

Response: Anecdotal evidence. It's like saying "I survived Russian Roulette. Therefore Russian Roulette is safe." I can say the same about SOME premeds here who are going to MD schools - they don't know how to read scientific journals, don't know how to work well in groups, don't know how to interprete and analyze data - but they are good at memorizing lots of facts - should I assume that MD students are the same?

Issue Three: DO boards are easier than MD boards

Response: Did your husband and his friends take (or seen) the DO boards (COMLEX)? The COMLEX is a 2-day exam, whereas USMLE is one day. COMLEX Part I likes to focus on clinically related issues, whereas USMLE Part I has more basic science focus. However, the COMLEX is recognized by the Federation of State Medical Boards as being equivalent to the USMLE, and can be used to obtain medical license in all 50 states. If the COMLEX was significantly easier than the USMLE, would you think it would be allowed to be the licensing exams for all 50 states?

Issue Four: Osteopathic Medicine relies on natural healing and manipulation (while allopathic don't)

Response: Well, the manipulation is an extra tool in the bag of tricks that physicians have to heal. It is not the only tool. If I get into a major MVC, I don't expect the osteopathic trauma surgeon to do OMM on me in the trauma bay.

However, the four principles of osteopathic medicine are: "1. The body tends to be self-healing and self-regulatory in the disease processes. 2. Intimate interrelationships exist between structure and function at all levels of biologic organization. 3. Abnormalities of the neuromusculoskeletal system are invariably present during disease. 4. Health is an equilibrium state, and maintaining this state requires constant biological adjustment."

First principle - I'm sure any biology major or MD or DO can agree with this principle.

Second principle - Biomechanics. Some MD schools are starting to teach biomechanics. It's not a radical idea. In fact, if you study protein chemistry, you'll quickly learn that there is a relationship between structure and function.

Third principle - I'm not so sure about this one. However, I'll keep an open mind about it.

Forth principle - I'm sure everyone (premeds, DOs, MDs) will agree with this statement.


Sorry if this post seems defensive. It's more to clear up some misconceptions that may be caused by the previous poster. Just wanted to make some counterarguments.

Cheers 🙂

 

[What the pho]

Originally posted by dr_almondjoy_do
For anyone curious, I turned down THREE allopathic medical schools (SUNY Downstate being one of them) to go to NYCOM, which was my first choice.

So you gave up SUNY $13k tuition a year to go to a DO school with around a $30k/year tuition. It doesn't seem that you're all that smart to begin with, or you're just full of $hit. Even if you were a non-resident suny would only be $25k. It makes alot of sense to turn down the better school to pay more tuition at the lesser school.🙄

 

[oceandocDO]

Ms. Barbara...

Your post takes the cake my dear.

1.) students accepted to DO schools have poorer GPA and MCAt scores ie I went to undergrade, where lots of people went to DO program instead of MD program; since I have taken several classes with them in my undergraduate, I have seen their approach to studying (either lazy, careless or simply they don't know); Simply said even before I knew they were going to DO school, in my eyes, they were very bad students, their grades from lab reports, class exams were 30 points below mine, etc.

Ummm, talk about a broad generalization. I guess all the Irish like to drink too, huh? Arent Asians good at math? I suppose on your methods of analysis, all MDs can be compared to the MDs mentioned in this article (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20030512/1000281.asp). Notice how at the bottom it says D.O.s are coming in to replace the void left by corrupt doctors. Please. I had 30+ on my mcat, 2 undergraduate degrees and have been published in Nature. I'm lazy though. Maybe your undergraduate was just a lousy school which inflated the grades of those lousy students enough to get into medical school. Hope the same isnt true for you.

2.) DO's boards are much easier than MD's; I can say so because my husband is an MD and we and his friends had a discussion about how these boards compare

I thought your credibility was shot until I read this. Then I knew it was over. My Kaplan board review professor, an MD from Chicago, today told me that line-for-line, the COMLEX Step I is harder than the USMLE Step I. Why? Because it's much more clinically based for this point in our careers than the USMLE, which tests rote memorization of basic science. In fact, he went on to say, since 2000, the USMLE has begun to look more like the COMLEX every year, but they're not the same test just yet. The COMLEX is also like 3 times as many questions as the USMLE. Stamina is a major part of doing well on it, as it is in being a good physician.

3.) someone prefers natural healing and manipulations versus allopathy; that's fine I respect that, but I don't believe in any natural powers and manipulations, just like I don't in chiropractic medicine.

As you obviously dont prepare before you provoke, I hope you learn a bit more about a procedure before you subject a patient to it some day. OMM is a physical therapy when the fat is cut off. Both professions use the same principles and techniques which often even have the same names. Even if I never use it, I still will have about 400 more hours of training in biomechanics, anatomy, and physiology then you. That will benefit my patient before I ever lay a hand on them. Or wait, I mean, it's supernatural, so I should be able to cure them from across the room. Right?

Ms. Barbara, any school will be lucky to have you, unfortunately your patients may not.

ColoradoCTT... very well said. Good luck to you.

What the pho... I also turned down cheaper allopathic alternatives to go to a more expensive D.O. school. I figured I should feel comfortable with the most important investment of my life, not merely subject myself to the lowest bidder. To each his own.

 

[oceandocDO]

Wow, that summed up my experiences in a shorter prose than I've ever seen before. Well said.

 

[souljah1]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Once they get into the real world they realize the premed mentality evaporates quickly.

Moral of the story, medical school is what you make of it. Only so much fits on a spoon.

well said.

 

[irlandesa]

Although the effort to increase knowledge about DO schools is a fine idea, please don't perpetrate stereotypes that are not true about MD schools and students. If you want to say that these are your opinions, that's cool, but opinions are not facts. It is simply NOT true that MD schools are poor at teaching clinical skills in the first 2 years and that research and specialzation are emphasized for everyone. At my school (Tufts), we start seeing real patients from Day 1 and are trained very well along the way as part of the curriculum in taking a history and physical. We also had 9/160 students match into Family Practice this year, which is surprisingly similar to the list you post for NYCOM students going to allopathic residencies. No one is pushed into choosing a particular specialty, and very few people end up in research here b/c of the strong emphasis placed on clinical training. I could give countless examples, but many allopathic med schools are known for providing excellent primary care training and delivery (U Wash, OHSU, U Mass, UVM, etc., etc..). There are actually a good number of DO's on the faculty at Tufts-NEMC and Baystate Medical Center in Springfield (particularly in Emergency Med); I'm surprised that no one from your class went to either hospital for a residency.. Anyway, you may want to share the matchlist on the thread on the Allopathic board if you haven't done so already; that way everyone who is interested can see it. good luck!

 

[Nefertari]

DO students,

What is the timeline for taking the COMLEX? If it's around the same time as the USMLE Step 1, is your 2nd year just crazy for those of you taking both? In addition to the residency application issues, this is another reason that makes me hesitant to consider D.O. Thanks for your input!

 

[oceandocDO]

irlandesa,

I'm not sure where you felt that D.O. students were attacking the quality of education at any medical school. Just because the Step I board exams test things a bit differently doesnt mean one school is lacking in education of the topic not stressed. Research is definitely stressed more at MD schools, but that of course doesnt mean you dont learn clinical skills. Clinical ideology is more stressed at D.O. schools early, but that doesnt mean you're not exposed to research endeavors and principles.

Nefertari...

I believe you can schedule the USMLE whenever you like. However, not many people in my class are taking Step I of the USMLE, only COMLEX Step I. Many of the people who are going to "power programs" from the above match list which started this whole discussion didnt take the USMLE Step I either, rather they only took USMLE Step II along with the COMLEX series. Residencies have become more aware of the COMLEX grading system, although a few are still hesitant to learn. The majority now recognize its value, but of course are more comortable with the USMLE. Hence, I plan to take USMLE Step II at my convenience next summer. Not a big deal, as both Step II exams are pretty similar. Cant say that for the Step I's though, overall.

 

[meanderson]

Breaking off from another general DO/MD debate for a moment, I still don't see what is so great about that match list. 26 anesthesiology???? Perhaps that means that nycom had a lot of students who didn't want to go into primary care and were not competitive for competitive specialties. Look at USC's recent match list. USC is not a top 30 US NEWS school but they had 5 derms and a good deal of ent's,opthos,orthos, etc.

I'm not saying that you can judge the quality of a match list by how many people go into derm. Or optho. Or ortho. Or urology. Or ENT. But looking at all the students who matched into any one of these specialties is somewhat telling......

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by What the pho
So you gave up SUNY $13k tuition a year to go to a DO school with around a $30k/year tuition. I doesn't seem that you're all that smart to begin with, or you're just full of $hit. Even if you were a non-resident suny would only be $25k. It makes alot of sense to turn down the better school to pay more tuition at the lesser school.🙄

You can't be serious! By looking at your profile, you belong at some substance abuse webboard! Not the SDN! I don't care WHAT degree you plan on getting!

And I have to say that I am intrigued with the path this thread has taken.... there has to be some more respectable MD students or pre-MD students on here that can add on to this thought process we have going.

 

[mattie113]

are you two still here? still whining? you do know that sdn was nice enough to give you your very own little home (some sort of osteopath thingy) its just a click away! go home... are you too good for your home?

 

[SexyEgptnDr]

Wow...I'm shocked...all this comotion for a match list? All the medical students on this posting have access to their match lists...and yet, I haven't seen anyone put anything up...regardless, I don't think that a match list at a certain school ALWAYS determines where you'll end up or what you will be. It is what you make of it...

And about this whole MD-DO nonsense...it doesn't matter what path you choose...because when you are in the hospital and are wearing a white coat, you are known as a "Dr"! You should choose a medical school because you are investing your money in something you believe in and you want to chose a school where you will be happy...so to whoever posted that a student should go to a cheaper school is absurd....you seem like the kind of person that just hangs out at the sale racks.

You don't hear patients talking about this nonsense...they are going to go to a Dr that they feel is compassionate and knowledgable....and I am sorry to say, but you can't learn that in medical school...and by looking at some of the posts on this site, many of you need to work on your social skills...

I hope that some of you reconsider some of the things that you are saying....regardless if you ACTUALLY think that way. Part of being a physician is being respectful and diplomatic.

The attitudes that some of you have shown, make me feel that you abide by the motto..."It's my way or no way"...and that's not what medicine is about.

I hope that everyone can be respectful of your fellow health care workers...whether they are MDs, DOs, PAs, RNs or NPs...because realistically, you need EVERYONE to work as a team in the hosptial. Also, if you think you're all "that" because you are an MD or DO, be careful not to show that ignorance as you are interviewing for a residency...because the truth is...you dont know whether it is going to be an MD or a DO interviewing you....

I suggest that everyone look back at your personal statement for your application to medical school...I can bet that most of you put "I want to be a physician to help people..." or something like that...but never once was MD or DO probably mentioned (unless you were talking specifically about osteopathy)...so maybe you all should reconsider why you went into this field to start with...you are all going to be physicians regardless of the school you choose.

Now it's up to you to be a GOOD physician.

Just my two cents...now I gotta go study (which I suggest all of you do if you want to get any type of residency)...

-SexyEgptnDr

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Nefertari...

I believe you can schedule the USMLE whenever you like. However, not many people in my class are taking Step I of the USMLE, only COMLEX Step I. Many of the people who are going to "power programs" from the above match list which started this whole discussion didnt take the USMLE Step I either, rather they only took USMLE Step II along with the COMLEX series. Residencies have become more aware of the COMLEX grading system, although a few are still hesitant to learn. The majority now recognize its value, but of course are more comortable with the USMLE. Hence, I plan to take USMLE Step II at my convenience next summer. Not a big deal, as both Step II exams are pretty similar. Cant say that for the Step I's though, overall.

oceandoc,

Thanks for explaining that. Btw, so you'll be taking USMLE Step II at the end of your 3rd year?

***I don't see either how this thread needs to get out of hand and so ugly. There are definitely prejudices and insecurities on both sides, which is too bad. In life, things are rarely so black & white, and everyone makes options to go a certain path based on their individual situations. It's these prejudices that needlessly sustain the dichotomy between allopathic and osteopathic medicine, in spite of their commonalities.

I appreciate when DO students take the time to share their perspectives, and it's ungrateful and disrespectful to attack them in this way.

 

[oceandocDO]

Breaking off from another general DO/MD debate for a moment, I still don't see what is so great about that match list. 26 anesthesiology???? Perhaps that means that nycom had a lot of students who didn't want to go into primary care and were not competitive for competitive specialties. Look at USC's recent match list. USC is not a top 30 US NEWS school but they had 5 derms and a good deal of ent's,opthos,orthos, etc

I think the 26 matching into anesthesiology is more of a shock in the sheer quantity choosing that specialty than it is a barometer of a match list. However, anesthesia has been much more competitive in recent years as specialties like surgery are becoming less favorable. It may not be up there with derm or optho yet, but it's not FP either. People are choosing lifestyle over glamour of late and anesthesia affords one a decent lifestlyle and in NY one of the highest average starting salaries, almost 220K/yr. IMO, I would put anesthesia in the top 4-6 most competitive right now, at least in NY.

I'm not saying that you can judge the quality of a match list by how many people go into derm. Or optho. Or ortho. Or urology. Or ENT. But looking at all the students who matched into any one of these specialties is somewhat telling......

So which is it? There's various ways to measure a class of graduates. Follow me for a minute here....One can look at the quantity of highly competitive specialties attained overall (eg.. sheer # of optho, derm, etc) but one can also look at the competitive nature of individual programs obtained at specific "reputable" institutions (ie, medicine at Yale, anesthesia at Cleveland Clinic, etc). In many ways they're mutually exclusive in that choice of specialty is rather subjective in the eyes of the students. IMO, the strength of programs attained may be a better indicator as it excludes personal preference in choice of specialty. The top students that matched into top programs on the list didnt get turned down by a derm or ENT program and settled for PM&R at Harvard, rather they got their #1 choice, so who's to say they wouldnt have matched if they wanted derm or optho? The fact of the matter is, not too many people want to be ENTs, or dermatologists. Granted, it's proportional, but there's a significant selection bias when you examine a school's match success, or lack-there-of, based on mere quantity that matches into ENT, Optho, and Derm. I hope I explained that well enough. It's on the lines of saying the yankees havent been the best team in baseball over the past 5-6 years because they havent won the world series every year or their players havent been league MVP consistently. No one discounts that the team is still very good overall, but if you judge a team by individual accolades and personal preferences then the grading criteria becomes much more complex.

nefertari... yeah, I'll be taking the USMLE Step II at the end of my third year, beginning of fourth year most likely.

lastly...

are you two still here? still whining? you do know that sdn was nice enough to give you your very own little home (some sort of osteopath thingy) its just a click away! go home... are you too good for your home?

Sorry, I dont like to hit back usually, but did we wake you? Can't handle an intellectual conversation? And to think you wasted your 46th post with that. How old are you, honestly? 😉

 

[oceandocDO]

Slickness,

I've honestly never encountered or been witness to any speck of discrimination. I'm not saying it may not exist somwhere, especially in here, but the proof is in the pudding, you know your stuff and no one will care. What's even better is when a bed-ridden patient starts requesting you because you offered a bit of OMT to them and they can walk to the bathroom now without help. That's the best part of being a D.O., IMO, is the little extra tool that you can pull out every now and then. It doesnt cure disease, but it facilitates healing, similar to what physical therapy accomplishes. For those of you who automatically discount it, you're doing a disservice to your patient, not to mention missing out on something that's bill-able!😛

I too had that question as a premed and I asked a senior D.O. resident in the hospital I was volunteering at. She said "No, unless you go back to talk to a premed undergraduate organization." Then she went on to say that she was interviewing for a fellowship at Harvard and that's the first time someone asked her about it in a professional sense.... leaving the interview the M.D. said "Oh, you're a D.O.". She said yes. Then he proceeded with "Cool, my partner's a D.O.". She got the fellowship, but chose Univ of Miami eventually over Harvard because her fiancee was down there.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

I'm loving the tone of the thread now.... here's my question:

Are there any DOs or MDs that have worked with the other half and felt completey comfortable? I say this b/c I wonder what it's like for an MD to get to work with a DO and see what it like. I also want to know what the flip side is like.

Since we compete for the same residency programs (65 % of DO's roughly), it would be nice to know how that works once we are working together.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by mattie113
are you two still here? still whining? you do know that sdn was nice enough to give you your very own little home (some sort of osteopath thingy) its just a click away! go home... are you too good for your home?

Yeah, really... are you related to "What the pho" or something....

 

[DrWBD]

I'm graduating from NYCOM this year (tomorrow, actually). I just wanted to clarify some points related to the original topic.

One, that list is not the official NYCOM Match list. While it seems every other medical school has had their list ready and posted for weeks, the NYCOM administration seems to feel that it isn't a priority to actually show anxious pre-meds proof that their graduates end up in somewhat decent ACGME residency programs. Further, they keep the match list on a password-protected website which only NYCOM students can access. 😕

Two, there are not six students going to New York Hospital in Manhattan. As was pointed out in the Allopathic forum by Tim Wu, "New York Hospital" refers to the affiliated program in Queens, NY, a much less competitive program. While it was probably unintentional, I don't think it was right for the original poster to just cut-and-paste the list without making that correction.