Jrsharp70

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please kill thread. It is a valid question, but one that never gets answered well. There is a lot of information out there on the subject, just read away and realize it isn't anything that will change.
 

TriagePreMed

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I for one don't care, but I would support it only because it would make it easier when treating patients that may not know what a DO is.

Please don't close this thread.
 

Dr Yiot

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I wud fight it to the death. I want all MD's to merge with DO's as it is the superior way of becoming a physician. Its omly a matter of time unti all practicing md physicians recognize that the DO degree shud be the only degree and willbe offered at all dchools. John hopkins school of osteopathic medicine. The university of osteopathic medicine and dentistry of new jersey. loyola college of osteopathic medicine. The list goes on and on. I can't wait but its only a matter of time.
 
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You're missing the point of of being a physician if you care about the letters in your title.
 

Helen Wheels

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I have never heard of this but I like it. :) It recognizes both the MD part of the education as well as the extra training in OMT. Kind of like an MD who also has an MPH that represents some extra training.

Honestly, it isn't just the general public that isn't sure what DOs are. One of my personal physicians, who has worked in academic medicine a long time, and is a very big name researcher with tons of publications, didn't seem too sure what a DO was. When I mentioned I was going to DO school next year, among other things, he asked me if it was a four year degree. I mean, I understand DOs only represent 7% of the physicians out there but I was a bit shocked that he hasn't bumped into DO students/residents/colleagues enough to know it was a four year degree.
 

Dr Yiot

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U guys are missing the point. All physicians shud have the do degree. Seriously why do we want the md degree when most md docs wish they were do
 

JaggerPlate

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Duplicate thread from Osteo; a resolution that was shot down last year; a subject that comes up all the time; nothing new; no progress made; don't expect anything to happen; E. T. C.
 

wolverinepwns

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when you go see a patient, you Say Hello, I'm DR. SMITH, when you're a doctor you a freaking doctor who gives a crap about whether its a DO or an MD.
 

cbrons

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Well when md's finally come to their senses and realize they all shud have been do's then we can talk.
Man you are one illiterate and totally unfunny troll. You should take a long walk on a short pier without a lifejacket. No one would miss you.
 

JeetKuneDo

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I used to think it'd be cool to have all DO schools become MD schools. I mean physicians are physicians right? Why have two different paths to the same goal. However, what if they did this and then got rid of the course re-take policy. That wouldn't be good at all.
 

elftown

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Man you are one illiterate and totally unfunny troll. You should take a long walk on a short pier without a lifejacket. No one would miss you.
Ouch... a little harsh 'brons. PunkmedGirl been treatin' you bad?

I used to think it'd be cool to have all DO schools become MD schools. I mean physicians are physicians right? Why have two different paths to the same goal. However, what if they did this and then got rid of the course re-take policy. That wouldn't be good at all.
:laugh:
 

lftbndlbrnchblk

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Didn't some UC school allow their DO grads to turn into MDs after paying a fee? Yeah. BIG difference in philosophies, clearly.
 

Sinfest

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Didn't some UC school allow their DO grads to turn into MDs after paying a fee? Yeah. BIG difference in philosophies, clearly.
You mixed two parts of a story into one, but your point is still valid.

In the 1960s the AMA wanted to end the practice of osteopathic medicine in CA, so they introduced a proposition to be voted upon. The proposition passed, so DO's that wanted to continue practicing medicine in CA had to pay a nominal fee and attend a short seminar to have their degree transfered into an MD. During this process UCI's medical school was turned into an allopathic school.
 

lftbndlbrnchblk

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You mixed two parts of a story into one, but your point is still valid.

In the 1960s the AMA wanted to end the practice of osteopathic medicine in CA, so they introduced a proposition to be voted upon. The proposition passed, so DO's that wanted to continue practicing medicine in CA had to pay a nominal fee and attend a short seminar to have their degree transfered into an MD. During this process UCI's medical school was turned into an allopathic school.
Oh wow. I did not know about this proposition. And so what? They voted on it again more recently, reversed their position on the matter and it was overturned? Why would the AMA pick JUST California for its DO-free zone?
 

JeetKuneDo

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You mixed two parts of a story into one, but your point is still valid.

In the 1960s the AMA wanted to end the practice of osteopathic medicine in CA, so they introduced a proposition to be voted upon. The proposition passed, so DO's that wanted to continue practicing medicine in CA had to pay a nominal fee and attend a short seminar to have their degree transfered into an MD. During this process UCI's medical school was turned into an allopathic school.

I wish they didn't and just did what NJ did and have two med schools, one MD and one DO. It would be pretty cool if CA kids had an option for cheaper in-state DO schools. Maybe one day. :xf:
 

Sinfest

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Sinfest

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I wish they didn't and just did what NJ did and have two med schools, one MD and one DO. It would be pretty cool if CA kids had an option for cheaper in-state DO schools. Maybe one day. :xf:
Man, I wish.

I attended UCI for undergrad and I absolutely love the school. It would have been nice to stay for med school.
 

SFO-IST

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You mixed two parts of a story into one, but your point is still valid.

In the 1960s the AMA wanted to end the practice of osteopathic medicine in CA, so they introduced a proposition to be voted upon. The proposition passed, so DO's that wanted to continue practicing medicine in CA had to pay a nominal fee and attend a short seminar to have their degree transfered into an MD. During this process UCI's medical school was turned into an allopathic school.
Not to nit pick or anything but based on what I remember (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the DO's did not HAVE to get the MD degree. They could continue practicing as DO's in CA. The state just prevented new, out of state DO's from practicing.

There was actually a lot of benefit from the switch to the rest of the osteopathic world. Since the AMA had just recognized thousands of DO's as equal to MD's, they could not subsequently claim that they were inferior or "cultist" as they had previously posited.
 

Sinfest

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Not to nit pick or anything but based on what I remember (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the DO's did not HAVE to get the MD degree. They could continue practicing as DO's in CA. The state just prevented new, out of state DO's from practicing.

There was actually a lot of benefit from the switch to the rest of the osteopathic world. Since the AMA had just recognized thousands of DO's as equal to MD's, they could not subsequently claim that they were inferior or "cultist" as they had previously posited.
You're definitely not nit-picking, I think it's a good habit to clarify things.

Yes, they did not have to change their degree. A small percentage (~10%-15% IIRC) chose to keep their degree. I didn't know they were able to practice as DO's though, thanks.
 

SFO-IST

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You're definitely not nit-picking, I think it's a good habit to clarify things.

Yes, they did not have to change their degree. A small percentage (~10%-15% IIRC) chose to keep their degree. I didn't know they were able to practice as DO's though, thanks.
Sinfest, I really enjoy your posts and this attitude is why!

I got my info from this book called The DOs: Osteopathic medicine in America. It's a great book if anyone's interested - especially the chapter on the California takeover and the resulting stalemate between the AMA and AOA. The book later talks about how the DO vs. MD debate has become eclipsed by issues involving the insurance companies and government. In essence, physicians have stopped fighting each other and are now occupied by the threats on their professions by the insurance companies/government. This makes sense. I'm sure that everybody here -regardless of political persuasion- would agree that healthcare debate has a much higher potential of affecting our future than the MD vs. DO debate.
 

Dr Yiot

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Man you are one illiterate and totally unfunny troll. You should take a long walk on a short pier without a lifejacket. No one would miss you.
ill give you illiterate but its because ive written thousands off half ass pappers in college and im sick of proofreading.

i wouldnt really consider myself a troll but this thread really gets under my skin. maybe its because i havent had my coffee or because i get grouchy at night, but after bieng on these boards for about three years now you get sick of seeying this thread over and over and over. wtf do people care about this for? thats why im posting nonsensical bs in this thread because A) its not gonna get anywhere and B) its probably going to go down a long and terrible path. For the people that want this thread to continue, you could easily do a quick search in this forumn and see that this thread has been created hundred of times by new people to the boards. again other new people on here have wanted to have the discussion and the same conclusion is inevitable. so why do this again and again.

oh and to your irrational and unnecesary post, even without a life jacket I know how to swim so I would be fine. you might wanna revise your post to something like "jump off a pier with no life jacket AND weights attached to your feet" otherwise i would just swim back to shore.

ps i cud really care what you or anyone thinks of me on an internet forumn:thumbup: oh and your apology is accepted
 

Sinfest

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Sinfest, I really enjoy your posts and this attitude is why!

I got my info from this book called The DOs: Osteopathic medicine in America. It's a great book if anyone's interested - especially the chapter on the California takeover and the resulting stalemate between the AMA and AOA. The book later talks about how the DO vs. MD debate has become eclipsed by issues involving the insurance companies and government. In essence, physicians have stopped fighting each other and are now occupied by the threats on their professions by the insurance companies/government. This makes sense. I'm sure that everybody here -regardless of political persuasion- would agree that healthcare debate has a much higher potential of affecting our future than the MD vs. DO debate.
Thanks man :)
 
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Sinfest, I really enjoy your posts and this attitude is why!

I got my info from this book called The DOs: Osteopathic medicine in America. It's a great book if anyone's interested - especially the chapter on the California takeover and the resulting stalemate between the AMA and AOA. The book later talks about how the DO vs. MD debate has become eclipsed by issues involving the insurance companies and government. In essence, physicians have stopped fighting each other and are now occupied by the threats on their professions by the insurance companies/government. This makes sense. I'm sure that everybody here -regardless of political persuasion- would agree that healthcare debate has a much higher potential of affecting our future than the MD vs. DO debate.
Second :thumbup:. Phenomenal, must-read book for every DO applicant. (the great thing is I was asked at my interview was what books I've read recently :))
 

DbDan

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i wouldnt really consider myself a troll but this thread really gets under my skin. maybe its because i havent had my coffee or because i get grouchy at night, but after bieng on these boards for about three years now you get sick of seeying this thread over and over and over. wtf do people care about this for? thats why im posting nonsensical bs in this thread because A) its not gonna get anywhere and B) its probably going to go down a long and terrible path. For the people that want this thread to continue, you could easily do a quick search in this forumn and see that this thread has been created hundred of times by new people to the boards. again other new people on here have wanted to have the discussion and the same conclusion is inevitable. so why do this again and again.

Actually I'm going to have to agree with you. Yes, there are dozens of threads asking why DOs don't just merge with MD, DO vs. MD, etc. this is actually the first post I've seen that sited an attempt last year to not change DO -> MD but instead a new MD, DO degree that would recognize both the medical doctor and osteopathy history.

I'd go for it, but it doesn't break my heart that it isn't done either. Really doesn't make a difference to me. I'm sure it will come up again in the future but at least the person making this thread had something to contribute other than the same old "Why don't DO and MD just merge, they are the same"
 

Cheshyre

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Didn't some UC school allow their DO grads to turn into MDs after paying a fee? Yeah. BIG difference in philosophies, clearly.
It was a big deal here in California (I go to COMP if the signature isn't showing up). This is what I remember from lecture, so, confirm any info you see here with a reputable source.

The UC school was Irvine. Also, it wasn't just UC Irvine - it was ALL California DOs. They took a test that was basically a formality, paid some money ($25?), and got an MD slapped on to their name.

Some interesting facts of note (if I remember correctly from lecture):
1) It was supported by a lot of the DOs at the time.
2) It turned out really, really badly. The MD world wasn't too keen on taking DO converts. Also, those converts couldn't really go anywhere else since other states didn't recognize them as MDs or DOs.

Eventually it got overturned (obviously).

I see it as a learning experience.

The only reason I can possibly see for changing the letters from DO to ANYTHING else (MDO, DOM, blahblahblah) is to gain more acceptance abroad since DOs in Canada and elsewhere aren't fully licensed physicians. As far as I know, DOs in Canada are generally referred to as "Osteopaths" who essentially are equivalent to chiropractors in the US.
 

Cheshyre

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There was actually a lot of benefit from the switch to the rest of the osteopathic world. Since the AMA had just recognized thousands of DO's as equal to MD's, they could not subsequently claim that they were inferior or "cultist" as they had previously posited.
No.. they just couldn't claim it publicly.
 

DbDan

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The only reason I can possibly see for changing the letters from DO to ANYTHING else (MDO, DOM, blahblahblah) is to gain more acceptance abroad since DOs in Canada and elsewhere aren't fully licensed physicians. As far as I know, DOs in Canada are generally referred to as "Osteopaths" who essentially are equivalent to chiropractors in the US.
Someone mentioned in another thread that in Canada, DOs are actually legally allowed to use MD instead of DO. There are definitely countries which don't recognize DO but that number is growing fewer as the years progress.
 
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You mixed two parts of a story into one, but your point is still valid.

In the 1960s the AMA wanted to end the practice of osteopathic medicine in CA, so they introduced a proposition to be voted upon. The proposition passed, so DO's that wanted to continue practicing medicine in CA had to pay a nominal fee and attend a short seminar to have their degree transfered into an MD. During this process UCI's medical school was turned into an allopathic school.

It seems like the AMA is one of the most anti-competitive monopolistic forces out there in America today. In addtion to:
1. trying to limit what chiropractors could do, and losing a supreme court decision during the '80s as a result,
2. Limiting the number of MD students a year
3. Limiting the number of residents a year - through the LCME that is one of their organizations
4. they have also engaged in trying to prevent the DOs from taking off in California.

Let's put an end to this Communist vestige that I call the "License Raja" - the AMA.
 

Kevin Baker

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It seems like the AMA is one of the most anti-competitive monopolistic forces out there in America today. In addtion to:
1. trying to limit what chiropractors could do, and losing a supreme court decision during the '80s as a result,
2. Limiting the number of MD students a year
3. Limiting the number of residents a year - through the LCME that is one of their organizations
4. they have also engaged in trying to prevent the DOs from taking off in California.

Let's put an end to this Communist vestige that I call the "License Raja" - the AMA.
Why do that when we can, and have, been able to stop them being this monopolistic force. I cringe every time I hear someone claim the AMA is this monopoly wrecking healthcare. Yes, they did some not so 'competitive' things in the past, but they are currently a shell of their former self. Where once MD was the only way to become a domestic doctor (thank you Flexner report), now there are alternatives (DO, IMG/FMG). Plus, the rise of local, or specialty specific groups, has done it's share. This is the chief reason I hope the DO and MD degrees never merge. We need competition or at least alternatives avenues.

I do agree with a name change though. I don't think its a huge priority but the majority of DOs haven't majority focused on classical osteopathy for decades. We need to put medicine in the name somehow and while I'd love to have the initials DOM after my name, I'm afraid some patients would be put off by that :)
 

lftbndlbrnchblk

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No.. they just couldn't claim it publicly.
Still, to anyone who says there's a fundamental difference, in philosophy and in practice, between MDs and DOs can't look to the AMA to define what these differences might be. In 1960s California, it looks like the difference between MDs and DOs was $25 bucks...
 

elftown

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Still, to anyone who says there's a fundamental difference, in philosophy and in practice, between MDs and DOs can't look to the AMA to define what these differences might be. In 1960s California, it looks like the difference between MDs and DOs was $25 bucks...
and it was probably just a processing fee.
 

DrBowtie

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Maybe it's time to take licensing out of the hands of both the AMA and the AOA.
Licensing is done by state boards. Also the AMA is a voluntary organization with no control over education. LCME and ACGME are the two bodies that control MD schools and residencies.
 

DuxburyPembroke

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Licensing is done by state boards. Also the AMA is a voluntary organization with no control over education. LCME and ACGME are the two bodies that control MD schools and residencies.
Ah - I guess that makes sense, since different states have different rules as to who can practice. So who decides that DO's get the DO degree? COCA? And who decides that MBBS's get the MD degree?
 

patel2

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Hopefully as the older, grumpier osteopaths are replaced by the younger generation, there will be more move to transition to this degree. It's all political right now at the AOA, with older docs craving that authority.

It's probably annoying to some DOs to have to explain that you are "equal to an MD", and/or to go on and give a history of good ol' AT Still and OMM therapy. Plus there's still lots of misconceptions about the degree...i.e. Keith Olbermann's (granted he's ******ed in general) rant about how Paris Hilton's doctor was a "fake doctor" because he was a "D.O. ... NOT an MD!!"
 

TriagePreMed

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Keith Olbermann's (granted he's ******ed in general) rant about how Paris Hilton's doctor was a "fake doctor" because he was a "D.O. ... NOT an MD!!"
I didn't know he said that, but he's actually a smart guy, in general.
 

patel2

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I didn't know he said that, but he's actually a smart guy, in general.
lol. Let's forget for a second that the guy is an ideologue terrified of views outside of his web-of-beliefs, and that the format of his show is for Keith to angrily criticize ONLY conservative policies, politicians (including their character) and pundits and then SOLELY bring on guests who will say..."Yes Keith, you're right."

This same guy has a paris hilton doctor segment on his show, denigrating the osteopathic profession, saying that D.O.'s are some sort of alternative provider, and quacks who are completely unqualified to practice medicine. Apparently, he has no team to vet any of his information or facts, and he just decided one day that M.D.= physician only as a fact, and began a rant about it. Then, the AOA and presumably dozens, if not hundreds of osteopaths (many from SDN) write angry letters to him and his producers, and still there is no retraction or apology made for his comments. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense that he would refuse to believe anything he says is wrong, since he looks in the mirror and sees the incarnation of Edward Murrow.

Here is the original thread of people getting riled up about it.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=415806

Anyways, I think this sort of misinformation in the media is one of many reasons a combined md/do degree would be useful to have.
 
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JaggerPlate

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Hey, hey ... let's all be nice to Keith; he just got off suspension and promises to be good from now on. Let's give him a chance! :smuggrin:
 
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Is there some kind of permission that they would have to get to change the degree to MD,DO? From who? Could I start a school that gave out ",MD" degrees? Honest question.
 

patel2

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Is there some kind of permission that they would have to get to change the degree to MD,DO? From who? Could I start a school that gave out ",MD" degrees? Honest question.
Yes. MD and DO have different licensure and accreditation boards. They probably have slightly different standards for starting a school. I know the whole for-profit thing was a controversial DO practice in the past, but I hear an MD school is opening up that is for-profit too.
 

NurWollen

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Keith Olbermann is a ****ing ******. He is the ann coulter of liberals only he might actually be even dumber.
Agreed.

Anyway, about DO's wanting to change the degree...
They are among the most educated, I dunno, 1% of people in the World and yet that isn't good enough? Who cares of one a thousand MD's look down on you... where is the self confidence people? I mean, you go to school for the better part of two decades and save peoples lives on a daily basis... but this one MD looks down on you... You had to explain your degree once at a party to someone whom you'll never see again and who doesn't make a quarter of what you do... and you care about your initials?
 
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1fastmedic

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I chose to go DO because of the holistic approach to patient care. The first physician I ever worked for was a DO, and he was top notch. To me, having the OMM training is another key tool (one that MDs don't have) that you can use to improve the well-being of a patient. Having an open mind to venture outside the traditional treatment modalities is very appealing to me.

DOs are plentiful here in southeast NC. There are DOs around here in emergency medicine, family medicine, anesthesiology, etc. and they all seem to be accepted well by the MDs. One wouldn't really expect to have so many DOs around here considering we have so many allopathic schools like UNC-Chapel Hill, Duke, ECU and Wake Forest here in NC. However, a new DO school will be opening in NC at Campbell University in Buies Creek apparently (projected date is 2015).

I don't really care if Canada or other foreign countries recognize DOs. I plan on staying right here in the U.S. If they ever change DO to DOM or MD, DO, etc. I couldn't really care at this point either.

I think that in time, the DO nomenclature will be as recognized by the general public as the MD nomenclature.
 

cliquesh

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The degree is not going to change in the near future. Maybe when someone from our generation becomes president of the AOA the degree will change, but when that happens there will be SOOO many DOs practicing that it may be pointless to change the degree.
 

pgchemist1

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OMG.....geez people get a life. I am a resident, went to an allopathic school and very proud to be an MD. Sometimes patients ask what a DO is but really, a doctor is a doctor.
 

DbDan

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OMG.....geez people get a life. I am a resident, went to an allopathic school and very proud to be an MD. Sometimes patients ask what a DO is but really, a doctor is a doctor.
Congrats... would you like us to stroke your ego for being an MD? What was the purpose of this post and bringing back a thread that was a few days unposted and dying?

It was simply a proposal that the OP found interesting and was posted. A doctor is a doctor but do you have any idea the amount of uninformed people there are about DO? Yes, people ask and yes people avoid it because they are unsure of what the degree means... Forums are a place to discuss topics pertaining to a certain interest, here that is the DO degree and everything surrounding it. The fact that there was a supported proposition for changing of the name is news and something to discuss....

I'm basically going to assume you are just trolling since every other one of your posts seems to be about sex and med school...