Retake my 31 MCAT? (excellent research, okay GPA, non-traditional)

[dap]

Just got my MCAT scores today: 8 PS / 12 VR / 11 BS for a 31N overall.

Trying to decide whether or not to retake. Just graduated last week with a 3.65 GPA, BS in biology. Will be moving to Turkey for two years to study Turkish and Arabic intensively (scholarship + stipend to a Turkish masters program).

I'm applying in Anthropology and will be 23-going-on-24 when I apply (will be turning 25 probably 2 weeks before matriculating). My undergraduate research is excellent. My advisor is super stoked on everything I've done, her and some others in the department often compare me to a famous MacArthur award-winning medical anthropologist, and I will have at least one sole author publication (probably 2-3) by the time I apply. Have had lots of other profs at conferences come up to talk to me about my research, congratulate me and tell me how impressed they are, etc etc. I've won some awards for research, including the highest award from the Honors College at my university. I've done ~2 years of medical anthropology research, with 6 months of that being fieldwork in northern and southern Iraq. I will have at least advanced proficiency in Turkish and Arabic by the time I would matriculate, and I have elementary proficiency in (Sorani) Kurdish now and could possibly build on that a little in the next two years.

I have well-defined research interests that I will be building on while in Turkey. I can talk about my research and I think I'm more familiar with debates/research in my field than most anyone at this level.

But that damn 31. I took the MCAT during the middle of my semester, had 2 conference presentations just before taking it, spent a week with my fiance in DC 2 weeks before, and just in general didn't prepare as well as I could have. Even still, I was hitting 33-34 on the AAMC practice exams I did. And that was without nearly enough studying. So, I know I can do much better on the exam, but if I am really likely to get in somewhere with my 31 and other qualifications, then I have much better things to do with my summer. Obviously I have to make this decision for myself, but I would love some input. My GPA is "OK" my MCAT is below average, and my research is excellent-plus. I did really well on the GRE with like 5 hours of studying (169/170 verbal and 156/170 quantitative). But if I know I can do better (high 30s at least) on the MCAT, should I just suck it up and retake it so I can shoot for my top-choice schools? Can I shoot for them anyway?

Sorry for the wall of text--let me know what you think!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Fencer]

One factor that you will need to consider is the 2015 MCAT. How would prior MCAT scores will be reported is not clear. At this point, you are not target for MSTP and even some large MD/PhD programs. You could prepare more and take it again this summer, and then go out for 2 years to study abroad. Age is not much of a factor yet. Your choosen field might limit you more than age.

 

[Neuronix]

Anthropology MD/PhD positions are few and far between and as a result often require excellent applications. Your GPA (below average for MSTPs) and MCAT (far below average) scores are both hurdles to getting into a program. It's not impossible, especially with an MCAT retake, but it's an uphill battle for you and even with a 36 MCAT you may not be successful. There are some non-MSTP MD/PhD programs that might accept you for this work, such as UIC, and you'll have to decide if that's an acceptable option vs MD-only as well.

I'm also not clear on your near term plans. When do you plan to apply to MD/PhD? If you are going away for 2 years, you should apply towards the end or after that time. Many programs do not allow for deferrals.

 

[dap]

Sorry if that wasn't clear, I would be applying in 2013 for hopeful matriculation in Fall 2014. The masters program would end summer of 2014. I registered for the July 6th MCAT a while ago. I guess I'll just have to get higher than a 36 then.

Have you guys spoken with many anthro MD/PhD hopefuls? Or seen a bunch rejected? These are sincere questions. There are actually more programs that say they will consider anthropology PhDs than I could realistically apply to. After speaking with me and hearing about my work, I had a director at a big-name MSTP tell me they would seriously consider my application regardless of the fact that both their written materials (and their academic officer) said they absolutely don't accept applications in the social sciences. I'm not at all saying I don't believe you, I just want to know what these conclusions are based on so I can be more informed. Penn supposedly seriously considers applicants in anthro, and I've had a professor who is a chair in the anthro dept with a dual appointment in the dept of family and community medicine tell me I should definitely apply to their MSTP. In your experience is that not true of Penn? Emory also seems to be welcoming of this. There is a joint UCSF/UCB program specifically for students in medical anthropology, there's University of Washington, WashU and Harvard, Case Western, Chicago and their MeSH program, I have a good potential advisor at Yale, there is fully-funded non-MSTP Florida, which even includes flowery language about social science applicants like "the value of bedside to community" on their website, and I have a strong possibility for an advisor there too.

Everyone seems to "know" that it's impossible to get in as a social science applicant, but I want to know HOW people know that or why they have concluded that. I'm not saying it's untrue or wrong, I'm just trying to learn more.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

You will face a lot of skepticism about your chosen field of study. Many would even consider your masters' work in Turkey and Iraq to be "a waste of time" for a career in medicine. I say this not to offend, but to reflect what many adcom members and interviewers might think.

You will need a very substantial medical (and, if possible, scientific/epidemiologic) component in your work in the Middle East.

Your GPA is good. Your MCAT is rather poor. I would suggest a retake after extensive and dedicated preparation a la 2 months of full time study. You may be able to raise it significantly given a strong study period.

I also think you've set your sights up too high if you are talking about potential mentors at Yale, WashU, etc. at this stage. That might be something to consider if and only if you score around a 40 on your MCAT retake (which is not impossible, btw). While the MCAT is where it's at, your chances at any MSTP are slim.

 

[Neuronix]

Everyone seems to "know" that it's impossible to get in as a social science applicant

Nobody in this thread said that. I specifically stated "It's not impossible" in thread post #3. I know that where I was an MD/PhD student Anthropology was not an allowed as a PhD choice until recently. I'm not sure if they ever did end up matriculating one. My ex-gf applied as an anthro MD/PhD and did not have success.

What I said is that there are few Anthropology positions for MD/PhDs nationally. What I will also stress to you is that those applying for a non-basic science PhD typically need to have an outstanding application, because it is viewed with skepticism by PDs. Program directors are first and foremost politicians. They will tell you happy shiny things to your face almost always. PDs are happy to take your money, evaluate your application, and reject you, then ignore you or lie to you if you ask them what happened. It's no skin off their back. This is exactly what happened to my ex-gf and what has happened to some others on this forum.

The reality is that your application has blemishes. Many programs are open to exceptional applicants in any discipline, but evaluate how many Anthropology MD/PhD students they have had in the past 10 years. At the larger MSTPs this is usually on the order of 0-2, again because in unusual disciplines they are only looking for exceptional candidates. Your application has some flaws, and this is why I think you may not be successful.

But again, YMMV. Maybe your connections and research are strong enough to overcome your MCAT score and GPA. If you do apply for MD/PhD programs, even with an improved MCAT score, I would recommend applying MD-only to a dozen schools as a backup.

 

[dap]

You will face a lot of skepticism about your chosen field of study. Many would even consider your masters' work in Turkey and Iraq to be "a waste of time" for a career in medicine. I say this not to offend, but to reflect what many adcom members and interviewers might think.

You will need a very substantial medical (and, if possible, scientific/epidemiologic) component in your work in the Middle East.

Your GPA is good. Your MCAT is rather poor. I would suggest a retake after extensive and dedicated preparation a la 2 months of full time study. You may be able to raise it significantly given a strong study period.

I also think you've set your sights up too high if you are talking about potential mentors at Yale, WashU, etc. at this stage. That might be something to consider if and only if you score around a 40 on your MCAT retake (which is not impossible, btw). While the MCAT is where it's at, your chances at any MSTP are slim.

Thanks for this! The last sentence especially is what I was looking for.

My work in Turkey and Iraq is exclusively related to medicine. My fieldwork in Iraq was spent almost entirely in hospitals, doctors offices, medical NGO offices, etc. I am pretty sure I have spent more hours in the clinic than most MS2's. (Granted I wasn't doing clinical work, but I was interviewing patients and their families and being a part of the clinical encounter...every day...for long days...for months at a time...).

As an undergrad, I also worked in a neuroscience lab (following an unsolicited invitation by a professor). So I can see this from both the "hard science" and social science perspectives, and I promise you my social science work is about a billion times more related to medicine than was attaching electrodes to crayfish ganglia.

I have interviewed scores of patients, families, nurses, and physicians. I have worked to determine the prevailing ideas about etiology and treatment of birth defects in Iraq. I've worked with many of these same groups to identify barriers to access for treatment of surgical diseases in Iraq. I prepared a review of research on the value of periconceptional vitamin (esp. folic acid) supplementation in reducing risk of birth defects that was presented directly to the first lady of Iraq. Through my work I now know the previous health minister of the KRG (government of Kurdistan), I worked to bring and accompany children from Iraq to Turkey for surgery at a Johns-Hopkins affiliated hospital in Istanbul. I could seriously go on. On top of all of that, all of my research has been completely, 100% independently designed, conducted, and analyzed. I've had great constructive criticism from my research advisor, but that's it. I'm not saying all of this to be an arrogant jerk, I just think I've had trouble getting through to people on here just how high of a level my research and independent work is at. People see 2 years of anthro research and they think that's somehow equivalent to 2 years working part time in some PI's lab, it's not.

Main point being, there is nothing about my research that is not related directly to medicine and the promotion of health.

Just to clear up another point--when I say I have potential mentors at Yale, Penn, and Florida, I don't at all mean I am confident about getting in there. Anthropology PhDs work a bit differently than lab science PhDs, the idea that you would go into a good anthropology dept not already knowing what you will be working on and who will be advising it is somewhat laughable (i.e. you don't do "rotations" to find your mentor). Any applicant to anthro that knows what they are doing has already contacted potential advisors and been given at least a soft approval that they would want to work with them. So all I was saying was that at many of these schools I already have a professor in the anthropology department who would be willing to work with me, and hopefully share with the MSTP adcom that they want to work with me. At Florida it's an assoc. professor, at Yale it is a bigwig chair-holding professor, and at Penn it's a bigwig chair-holding professor who is also faculty in family med.

Either way, I'm retaking two months from now. I studied very little originally because my practice scores were good enough and I thought I'd do better or the same as my practice scores on the real thing. I really do think I can get over a 36. On the three AAMC practice exams I took I had a 15 and two 14s in verbal. So really I just have to go back and re-learn a lot of the science. (PS was always around 8-9, got an 8 on the real thing).

I do sincerely appreciate all of the advice I'm getting, but I think for MD/PhD applicants in the social science some of the criteria are different. And I think the research is judged a bit differently. For me, It's not just that I've put in my 2 years of undergrad research and now I want to get into an MD/PhD program and start all over again. My undergrad research feeds directly into my dissertation, it is "preliminary fieldwork" basically. Same with my language training--nearly every cultural anthropology department requires mastery of foreign language relevant to your research, it's a big part of the PhD. So all of this is about as relevant as can possibly be for the actual MD/PhD education (much more relevant, I would argue, than most undergrad's lab work, including mine).

 

[dap]

Nobody in this thread said that. I specifically stated "It's not impossible" in thread post #3. I know that where I was an MD/PhD student Anthropology was not an allowed as a PhD choice until recently. I'm not sure if they ever did end up matriculating one. My ex-gf applied as an anthro MD/PhD and did not have success.

What I said is that there are few Anthropology positions for MD/PhDs nationally. What I will also stress to you is that those applying for a non-basic science PhD typically need to have an outstanding application, because it is viewed with skepticism by PDs. Program directors are first and foremost politicians. They will tell you happy shiny things to your face almost always. PDs are happy to take your money, evaluate your application, and reject you, then ignore you or lie to you if you ask them what happened. It's no skin off their back. This is exactly what happened to my ex-gf and what has happened to some others on this forum.

The reality is that your application has blemishes. Many programs are open to exceptional applicants in any discipline, but evaluate how many Anthropology MD/PhD students they have had in the past 10 years. At the larger MSTPs this is usually on the order of 0-2, again because in unusual disciplines they are only looking for exceptional candidates. Your application has some flaws, and this is why I think you may not be successful.

But again, YMMV. Maybe your connections and research are strong enough to overcome your MCAT score and GPA. If you do apply for MD/PhD programs, even with an improved MCAT score, I would recommend applying MD-only to a dozen schools as a backup.

Thanks, this is good to hear and I appreciate all of it. I would be just as happy with Florida (non-MSTP) as I would with a big name school, for me it is all about who would be able to advise my dissertation. And there's a good prof. at Florida for it. I'll definitely apply MD-only to my state school and a few others next cycle as well. Thanks again.

I'll report back to you guys in a couple months with my retake score. Hopefully it will be good news


Edit: My comment about everyone knowing it is impossible was more about the general climate of MD/PhD applications, where anyone I talk to, in real life or the interwebs, is dismayed as soon as they hear I am applying in anthropology. And my point was not that I don't think that opinion is grounded, only that no one has ever shared the actual "grounds" with me. My questions on that point really were sincere.

 

[miz]

OP, what was your science GPA?
I know you've already decided to retake but your MCAT/GPA are lower than the MD only admissions at many of these schools and your practice MCATs are skewed away from the sciences, which seems to be a red flag if your science GPA is also low. You might consider doing extensive prep (further away than a July test date)
A preliminary hurdle for any applicant is would this person do well in medical school? If they have any doubt about your capacity to pass med school, especially given your strong research credentials I'd think they'd cut you loose and suggest that you pursue a PhD only program.

 

[dap]

OP, what was your science GPA?
I know you've already decided to retake but your MCAT/GPA are lower than the MD only admissions at many of these schools and your practice MCATs are skewed away from the sciences, which seems to be a red flag if your science GPA is also low. You might consider doing extensive prep (further away than a July test date)
A preliminary hurdle for any applicant is would this person do well in medical school? If they have any doubt about your capacity to pass med school, especially given your strong research credentials I'd think they'd cut you loose and suggest that you pursue a PhD only program.

Thanks! Again, the reason my MCAT is skewed away from science is simply because I didn't prepare. It has been 3 years since I've looked at a lot of those physics formulas or anything in gen chem. My science GPA is a 3.61. I had a couple of really silly C's, namely a C in a class (physics) in which my lowest test grade was 100. I never went to the class and then showed up and aced the exams, got like 5% attendance grade. I still have all the graded exams and half-seriously considered bringing them with me to my interviews

I really am pretty strong in science, though I haven't demonstrated it well. I hope I can show that with a more serious effort on the MCAT. I have A+'s in 5 senior level science courses, A's in almost all the others, and I will have a very strong letter of rec from an MD and prof. at my school who teaches medical microbiology (one of the dreaded classes & profs). I went to school wanting to do basic research, and that neuro professor I mentioned above was so impressed with my performance in his bio class that he pulled me aside after class and asked me if I would come work in his lab. I've also had a couple of semesters with 16-18 hours of all upper-level science classes and gotten A's, so hopefully they will see that I can handle a high course load of science and hack it.

 

[BrightandClear]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to make a brief comment.

You may find the "I'm awesome and nobody understands me" attitude less than productive during your application cycle. I'm also a very 'uniquely' qualified applicant. Even though I tried to go into this cycle with a very open mind, I was utterly shocked by being criticized for things I never even considered as a weaknesses and praised for aspects of my application I had perceived to be among my bigger flaws. This process is almost never what you expect it to be.

/lecture

 

[dap]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to make a brief comment.

You may find the "I'm awesome and nobody understands me" attitude less than productive during your application cycle. I'm also a very 'uniquely' qualified applicant. Even though I tried to go into this cycle with a very open mind, I was utterly shocked by being criticized for things I never even considered as a weaknesses and praised for aspects of my application I had perceived to be among my bigger flaws. This process is almost never what you expect it to be.

/lecture

Thanks, I didn't mean to come off that way. This forum is also not the application process, and my personal statement will be slightly more intentional, planned, and proof-read than a forum response.

When I say I "haven't demonstrated" that I can do science, I don't mean I haven't demonstrated it to people on this forum, I mean I haven't demonstrated it in my application. I recognize that flaw, and that is what I was saying by I hope I can fix that with a better effort on the MCAT.


The fact is, I get that it's really hard to get into an MD/PhD program. I have back-up plans. I also feel that as long as my MCAT and GPA don't automatically shut the door on me (which is basically what this thread was asking), and the admissions committee does look at my whole application, that I do have a shot at getting in somewhere. My point in responding with more information about other qualifications was to try to get past the whole "you don't really know what you're doing" spiel and into the actual discussion. So if my defensiveness comes off as "I'm awesome and nobody understands me," I apologize. That's not my plan in approaching applications and interviews. Thanks again for your comment.