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Rethinking my options - young mother, low undergrad gpa. Any advice?

Discussion in 'Nontraditional Students' started by typeogurl7, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. typeogurl7

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    I graduated having just turned 20 y.o. I had had a dismal first year, leading to a 3.14 overall GPA. My MCAT score is 33R. For the past year, I have been doing biomedical research full-time and applying for Fall 2007 matriculation only to DC area schools. I also gave birth in 2006.

    The application season has been very disappointing for me, with one waitlist only.

    I have been told by one admissions office that, to be considered competitive, I should do a graduate program or post-bacc. However, it would not be financially feasible for me to do this and THEN cover high med school costs too.

    My pre-med advisor suggests that adding another year of full-time work and "substantially updating" my application will yield better results if I reapply to the same schools.

    I have been racking my brain trying to figure out how I can "update" (read improve) my application, what I can do... I usually take care of my baby during the day, and work afternoons/nights and weekends. I am taking one class (one night/week). I am also taking Driver's Ed for the next 2 months, and doing some promotional work on the side. I have been reading and studying on my own, but I clearly can't get grades for that. So, this schedule leaves very little free time.

    However, I am still younger or as young as the average applicant at 21 y.o., so time is definitely on my side, but I cannot see myself waiting more than 2 years to start medical school.

    I have been getting extremely discouraged, and I am reconsidering going to medical school at all. Another consideration is whether I should mention being a parent if I reapply. I feel that becoming a parent has changed me completely for the better - I am so much more efficient, living more healthily, more caring and compassionate. It seems to me like it would be a lie to skip that part of my experiences. At the same time, it would inevitably lead to doubt about my being able to handle motherhood and medical school at the same time, considering my first undergraduate year's academic results.

    Does anyone have any advice for me, or a similar situation to mine that they overcame?

    Thanks so much!
     
  2. spicedmanna

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    MCAT and GPA are extremely important factors in medical school admissions. Your MCAT score is fine. Clearly the problem lies with your undergraduate GPA; that's what's holding you back. As suggested by the UMD admissions office, post-baccalaurate undergraduate work will help you substantially when you apply next. It would absolutely behoove you to raise that undergraduate GPA as much as you are reasonably able to accomplish. Your premedical advisor is also correct, in my opinion. Improving your package will likely include post-baccalaureate work and also participating in some volunteer, community service, clinical work, and doctor shadowing. These take a backseat to doing well in school, however. Doing well in school and trending A's in full semesters (or as full as you can achieve, given your individual situation) should be your priority.

    Now, I don't have kids, so I can't fully appreciate your situation. I can only give you my perspective as someone who is older, been out of school for some time, and has had previous careers. I think it is quite possible to care for your child, work, and go to school. It won't be easy, and you'll most definitely want to enlist as much support from those around you as possible, but I think it can be done. You need to evaluate how strongly you wish to become a doctor. If that's truly the career you want to pursue, you will need to realize that it's a fairly long, challenging, and expensive road. Are you willing to do what is necessary? If so, then read on.

    You heard from the horse's mouth (the UMD admissions office) what you need to do. Now the ball is in your court. I recommend that you do what is necessary to arrange your life in such a way where you are able to take post-baccalaureate classes (being mindful of your other priorities, of course). Yes, it's a big sacrifice, but it'll certainly be of benefit to your application. As far as finances are concerned, many people maintain jobs and a family while going to school. Will it be easy? Nope. Reduce the time you spend with work activities, arrange for day care, take evening classes, and take out a private loan, if you must. Set it up so that you can attend school, taking advanced undergraduate science classes with as full of a schedule as you can arrange (up to fulltime). Do well in your classes. Don't worry about paying for medical school right now; that's the least of your concern. You need to first get accepted. That means doing post-baccalaureate work. Almost no one pays for medical school out-of-pocket; everyone takes out a substantial loan for medical school and go into debt, so you need to think of it from that perspective. Your investment into post-bacc work is just a drop in the debt bucket, so to speak.

    There are a number of different undergraduate post-baccalaureate programs, informal and formal. Check out the post-baccalaureate forum for more information on them. If you must consider evening post-baccalaureate programs, there are ones available in your area at reasonable cost (www.scienceintheevening.umd.edu). Do some research.

    Finally, if you aren't picky about the letters after your name, consider DO schools in addition to MD schools. It might be toward your advantage to do so. Read up on it and do some research.

    Good luck! :luck:
     
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  3. rgerwin

    rgerwin Senior Member
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    Go DO. Your life experience and MCAT score will get you tons of interviews, and you GPA is better than mine, and I got into my top choice. Don't mess around with post-bacc. It doesn't fit at all into the direction your life has taken, and would be a waste of time. Applying now might be hard, but apply again everywhere in June, and I'm almost positive you'll have an acceptance by Nov. Get a job you like for the next year, maybe add some volunteer experience, and you'll be all set for 2008.

    Good luck!
     
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  4. sunnyjohn

    sunnyjohn Got Mustard?
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    Take undergrad/post bacc courses at a local state univesity of college to improve your undergrad GPA and maximize your money.

    If you can get that BCPM up to a 3.0 (or over) and overall GPA up to 3.3 (or above) you stand a MUCH better chance (especially with your MCAT score). Applying to only schools in DC and Maryland is limiting with your lower GPA especially since most people apply fairly broadly. If you know you can't move and must stay locally, you must do all within your power to improve that GPA.

    I would also suggest a DO school. DEBUSK is still taking applications for this cycle.
     
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  5. ExtremeUnderdog

    ExtremeUnderdog Megalomania Extirpator
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    At the end of your post you stated that you are "reconsidering going to medical school at all". If you are having any doubts, which it appears you are, then the first thing you need to figure out is whether or not medicine is where you absolutely and unequivocally see your future.

    A. Have you had any exposure to the practice of medicine - did you work/volunteer/shadow in any clinical settings and for a substantial amount of time (not just a 20-hr stint)? If not, then I would strongly recommend you try to squeeze this into your schedule (and I really do appreciate how challenging this may be with an infant and a busy work schedule). You may find that this could be the single most important factor in helping you make a decision as to whether medicine is right for you.

    B. It is perfectly understandable that waiting is a challenge and all of us want to hurry up and live our lives, which explains your desire to get into med school in the next year or two. However, please consider the fact that life in medical school is very challenging (I have not been there yet, but I have seen close friends go through it and I also trust the many people who have shared their experiences here on SDN... it is very tough!). Having a few years to spend with your baby, to watch and guide him/her through many important milestones, to be able to leave a fairly independent and communicative toddler rather than a helpless little baby in daycare can make this wait quite worthwhile. (I can tell you from experience that leaving a 15-month-old in the arms of strangers all day and then not being able to find out if he/she was comforted when he/she cried, if his/her feelings were hurt, if he/she had a good time, etc. can be very difficult. On the other hand, picking up a 3-year-old from pre-school and listening to his/her impressions and stories of the day can be thrilling.)

    C. From what I understand "Numbers" is the name of the first phase of the game. So, if your numbers are not up to par, working another year in a lab is probably not going to do much to improve your chances. With all due respect to your pre-med advisor, I do have to say that the advice coming from the admissions office carries much more weight. The Georgetown SMP is an excellent option for someone in your position - low GPA and good MCAT. Since it is your alma mater you may have a leg up in the admissions process. There is a substantial financial burden that comes with it, however, loans do cover the SMP and if you really want to spend the rest of your life in medicine then an extra $50K should not really seem like such a big hurdle, given the fact that you will be able to repay the extra $50K in loans fairly easily once you are working.

    This brings us back to the original question - do you really want to spend the rest of your life practicing medicine?

    P.S. I am not discounting the financial implications of this by any stretch of the imagination. I am in the general area (northern Virginia), so I really do understand the added financial pain of post-bacc classes, grad programs, etc. while living in an area with such a high cost of living.
     
  6. OP
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    typeogurl7

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    Thanks to everybody for responding so quickly and thoughtfully. I will be sure to look into the differences and pros/cons with DO vs MD, and think more seriously about post-bac/other grad school.

    I am sure that I want to practice medicine, but I am also torn because of the financial burden I now know will be placed on our family (I had been expecting much more financial support from my parents, which it turns out they are unwilling to give.) Also, my interests have been changing in the past year - I was sure for a while that the only thing I would be happy doing is treating patients as a psychiatrist, but I am now veering toward the public health field and debating whether I wouldn't be more interested in treating populations, as an epidemiologist, for example. As it happens, positions in public health often require medical training in addition to a masters, and with good reason. I didn't mention before that I have the option of getting a good medical education in my country of origin. Again, this would come with sacrifices like my husband's job and therefore our income. I keep weighing the options and not being able to come up with a decision I feel comfortable with...

    Thanks again to everyone who replied!
     
  7. ExtremeUnderdog

    ExtremeUnderdog Megalomania Extirpator
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    MD vs. DO: One thing to consider is that if you ever intend to practice outside the US (say in Bulgaria), then the DO will be a problem.

    Education in Bulgaria: If you intend to practice mostly in the US, then you should really try to get your education here, the hurdles can be daunting for FMGs. (I am a former Eastern Bloc kid myself, so I have thought about going "back" to get my education, but have been advised by a number of expats to exhaust all my options here before going that route.)

    Public Health: You do not need an MD to work in public health. If you are interested in Epidemiology, then a PhD in Epi will be much more valuable than and MD. MDs generally have one survey Epi course and maybe one other public health course, unless they decide to do a residency in preventive medicine. I have a masters in Public Health, from a reputable program within a top 30 med school, and the MD students at that med school got very little exposure, while the preventive medicine residents were in the same classes with us public health grad students.

    Money: I know this may be hard, but try not to let money make the most important life decisions for you... if you can help it. I am not advocating for financial irresponsibility, rather for making decisions with a cool head and an honest heart, without worrying about the wallet... the head and heart have a way of solving the wallet problem once a sound decision has been made (in my experience at least). I felt compelled to post again after reading your last message, because I can honestly say that the single most asinine decision with the greatest negative ramifications I have ever made in my life was based in part on financial worries (and in part on my parents' refusal to support me as they had promised)... 15 years later I am still trying to dig myself out of the hole started by that decision.
     
  8. OP
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    typeogurl7

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    ExtremeUnderdog-

    It seems you and I have some similar considerations facing us. I am sorry you have had to go through the parental lack of support that I am going through now, and thanks for the warning about the long-term repercussions. It is a little (just a little) comforting to see that I am not alone in having these issues - so many of the people I know attempting the medical route are single, childless, and still dependent on their parents...

    I looked at some PhD Epidemiology programs like you suggested, and it seems like something I would greatly enjoy. A couple questions for you though: was medicine your ultimate goal when you decided to get your MPH, and do you plan to put your MPH to use after med school? Also, have you felt limited in terms of your career options with only an MPH (I'm assuming that's your only graduate degree)? I would also ask what that decision was...but I'm guessing you don't feel comfortable sharing it here since you didn't specify it in your last post.

    Thanks again so much for all your advice, please keep it coming! =)
     
  9. imrep1972

    imrep1972 Senior Member
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    Just to add something...

    It was mentioned to consider Georgetown's SMP. Your stats would compare favorably to many students in our program. I think yoiu would have a very good chance of being accepted for the next year, and they're still taking applications.

    If you are thinking about MD at all, I'd strongly advise you to go the SMP route. It would also allow you to take many of the first year med school classes, so that you could get a better feel for what med school is like.

    Good luck, whatever you decide.

     
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    typeogurl7

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    imrep -

    It was not clear to me from the SMP website, so maybe you can enlighten me since you've gone through the courses in the program: Once you get your MD, are your career options at all enhanced by having the Masters too, or is the Masters's sole use for getting into med school? On the surface, it seems like just a ploy to get into med school as opposed to something that I could use in the future. That's what's driving me to look for other Masters programs.

    Thanks!
     
  11. spicedmanna

    Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

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    Well, ideally, you'd want something that will help you get into medical school and be useful after medical school as well, but this is on a continuum, really, since almost every program you complete is going to be of some use to you in your admissions process, and every experience of some benefit in rounding out your MD/DO. With that said, some of the programs that benefit you the most in the medical school admissions process will not be as useful to you after you receive your MD/DO (read: pretty much not at all); some programs that benefit you minimally in the admission process, will be of great utility in your life, especially if you don't get into medical school.

    If your main goal is to get into medical school, then post-baccalaureate undergraduate work and SMP are your best options. The post-bacc will serve to raise your undergraduate GPA, an important component in the admissions process, and show that you can do consistanly good work across a difficult schedule. The SMP basically mimics MSI, and you are graded based on how the MSI's perform, so this gives the adcomms something to compare. As far as cost is concerned, SMP's, in particular, and some formal post-baccalaureate programs can be expensive. Informal post-baccalaureate program costs can vary, but are generally less expensive. Both can be very beneficial to the medical school admissions process depending on your individual situation, but neither of these types of programs will provide much utility after you receive your MD/DO.

    If you choose other types of post-baccalaurate work, such as master's work in other fields, it will generally not be as useful to the medical school admissions process. While not true for all schools, many schools will look at your undergraduate GPA as separate from your graduate GPA; the two rarely mix and you are judged primarily, at least at the initial stages of the admissions process, on your undergraduate GPA. Since the majority of the applicants to medical schools are traditional, meaning they only have bachelor's degrees and completed undergraduate work, adcomms have trouble evaluating your graduate work tangibly across the applicant population. Thus, it is often viewed as something of a good extracurricular activity rather than as something analogous to your undergraduate work. This isn't true in all cases; you should contact the admissions offices of the schools you intend to apply and seek advise on this matter, but in general this is the perception.

    If you can't see yourself doing anything other than post-bacc work outside of post-baccalaureate undergrad or SMP-type graduate programs, I'd still recommend doing some post-bacc undergrad work to raise your science GPA to at least 3.0+ (greater if you can). Right now, it's well-below average. It will stick out like a sore thumb to admissions folks. Also, you need to be conscious of overall GPA cut-offs early on in the admissions process. I don't know where the line is, but you don't want to be anywhere near it. So some work to raise your science and overall GPA will be beneficial, in my mind. In many instances, contrary to popular belief a good MCAT score will not make up for a low GPA. Both need to be as good as you can get them. It's partially a numbers game to get your foot into the door.

    Also, if you want to be a physician, then need to realize that it's very likely to be an expensive venture. There are few ways around it. Sometimes, costs can be minimized by attending a state school. Sometimes people do a national health scholarship, or go into the military; these will give you a "free" ride (in quotes, because you pay in other ways). Other than that, you will most likely be taking out a substantial loan in the amount of $200K+. I kind of agree with ExtremeUnderDog. Every time I've made a choice based on economics alone, it hasn't turned out to be the most optimal choice. Make the choice with both heart and mind, and I believe that the rest will fall into place, in time.

    My 2 cents. Good luck! :luck:
     
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  12. TheGalvaniFrog

    TheGalvaniFrog Dissected & Electrocuted
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    Yep, the SMP is purely a "ploy" for people hell-bent on getting into a U.S. MD school. It's not particularly useful for anything else.
     
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    typeogurl7

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    spicedmanna-

    Oooh thinking about that $55k for the SMP is so painful... I'm taking a class now that I could apply toward the BCPM gpa as a grad class. I looked at the science in the evening at UMCP that you referred me to, and that seems much more doable than a whole program. I wouldn't be able to take those classes, though, until the fall of this year, which would be weeeell into the new application season and therefore the grades wouldn't be available. I'm thinking about maybe taking some classes at Montgomery College over the summer, since the schedules are so flexible and it's generally considered pretty reputable as far as community colleges go.

    I looked at some of your other posts; did you end up deciding to do the SMP at Georgetown?

    Thanks again for your advice and to everyone else who responded!
     
  14. Taty

    Taty Senior Member
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    You are young!!You can do it!!! I did not have ANY financial support from my parents and could make it through. You can do it its just going to take some time.
     
  15. spicedmanna

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    Hi, typeogurl7,

    When I began this venture, I had been out of college for many years. I elected to do the SIE program at UMCP to refresh my prerequisite classes and to raise my GPA. I found it to be quite good, and it definitely served it's purpose for me. I definitely worked hard, but I managed to get straight A's across full schedules for a couple of semesters. I maintained that average throughout. According to the AMCAS scale, it raised my GPA some, but not a whole lot, because I already had many credits. Currently, it's 3.35 overall and my BCPM is 3.29. I took the MCAT and got a 28P, which, unfortuately, is below average for a matriculant (what hurt me the most was the 7 that I received in PS). I have a great package otherwise, with many years of biomedical research experience at NIH, experience in somatic psychology, and now, some EMT-B experience. No love so far from allopathic schools.

    I was getting worried that I wouldn't get in this year, so I thought about options to improve my package. I thought about doing additional post-baccalaureate work and going into a SMP program. Neither of these programs turned out to be particularly exciting options, as you might imagine. Besides, they are fairly expensive, as you mentioned. I wondered, "Was there not another alternative?"

    Well, I did some soul searching and some doctor shadowing, and I realized that I was making this process much harder for myself than it really had to be. I really should have gone DO from the onset, but somehow didn't. I had some misconceptions about DO floating around my mind, and I guess I bought into some of them unconsciously. After shadowing a few DO's, I realized that all of my assumptions were pretty much false. Not only that, I realized that DO was actually closer to what I wanted anyway. My entire history, package, and biopsychosocial approach to wellness coaching and teaching (I've been a coach and yoga teacher for many years), were completely spot on in terms of being in alignment with the DO education. Furthermore, since I suspect that I will want to work in primary care, I think this type of training further enhances and optimizes my preparation for that particular area of practice. It was like, "Hello, McFly, if the shoes fit you comfortably, and you smile everytime you wear them, perhaps you should wear them?!" Well, that's precisely what I did; I fully embraced DO.

    One advantage of applying DO is that the primary application (AACOMAS) actually REPLACES your old grade with a new grade, if you retake the class. It's not like AMCAS, which averages everything in. This raised my GPA still further. DO schools are more "holistic" in their admissions approach, meaning they look at the intangible factors with considerable weight. Furthermore, their overall averages for matriculants tend to be lower. At this time, I have two upcoming interviews (one next week) that I received pre-secondary. I'm pretty excited.

    So, no, I elected not to pursue the SMP program on the account of my good fortune thus far with DO schools. If I don't end up getting in this year, I'm think I'm going to do further clinical work (through EMT-B) and take additional advanced science classes.

    Anyway, I seem to be carrying on excessively in this reply. With respect to your own process, if you decide to go the post-baccalaureate route with the SIE program at UMCP, or at another school, it may be worth delaying your application process until next year. I know that sucks and all, to have to wait still longer, but I think it will give you the best chance to increase your GPA before reapplying. Just make sure you reapply before your MCAT expires. If you go DO, you can improve your GPA faster, because of grade replacement. Keep this in mind.

    Good luck!
     
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  16. ExtremeUnderdog

    ExtremeUnderdog Megalomania Extirpator
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    There are a number of positive things about not being single and childless in this process (and this isn't just some pep talk to make us feel better :D). As you mentioned in your first post, you have already realized how much more organized, focused and responsible you have become since entering parenthood. As a woman, it is wonderful that you have already had a child and realized that medicine is still your passion without interfering or detracting from you as a mother. There are many, and I mean MANY (three that I know personally and a bunch I have come across through mutual friends and online) women, who discover that once they have children they do not enjoy medicine as a career. These women invariably followed the traditional path to med school and started their families while in med school, residency or later. Afterwards they feel trapped in a profession into which they have invested so much time and money that they simply cannot walk away. You will not be faced with these very trying issues.

    I went into the MPH program as a stepping stone to medical school, which was not the correct path (as I discovered, the MPH does very little to redeem a weak undergrad GPA, even if you do very well). However, I can honestly say that it was a really enlightening experience... despite the fact that I had already been on the peripheries of medicine for 10 years, I had very little understanding of the true issues that are at the root of our health care crisis. Most physicians I know/meet have a limited understanding of the health care system and recognize this as an unfortunate shortcoming. So... the MPH is a good degree and a great experience, but I would not advise getting it solely as a precursor to med school. An MPH is not limiting in career options - there are myriad choices within local/state/federal health departments, agencies, non-profit organizations, clinics and often hospitals. However, I want to practice medicine, I want to make connections with individuals as opposed to populations alone, as someone said on these board... I want to "smell the patient". :D

    The decision I made was giving up my spot as an undergrad at Johns Hopkins, because I had to borrow $24K for tuition (for the entire 4 years, yes... only $6K per year) and living expenses - my parents adamantly refused to fund me if I went out of state. I did learn an invaluable lesson though - don't let money paint your dreams! :) Everything does happen for a reason, so I needed to learn that lesson and my life was meant to unfold exactly in that way, however, if given a choice it is always nice to have the option of unfolding your own life in the best possible way. ;)
     
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    typeogurl7

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    That's a great point about the personal benefits of having children early in this situation, I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. Regarding the Public Health side, I guess I need to think very seriously about whether I would be happy treating populations without treating individuals, and I guess I still have a lot more research to do. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences with me, ExtremeUnderdog.

    Thank you also to spicedmanna for sharing your experiences and advice.

    You have both been so helpful. Good luck in your own endeavours!
     
  18. 1Path

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    As a person who is also limited to the DC metro area, I think patience is the one quality you HAVE to master if you want to be successful. IMHO, 2 years or more is certainly not an unreasonable timframe to put together the solid app to med school given you are also a parent. And the good thing about living in metro DC is that there's a wide range competitively speaking, of schools to focus on and apply to. I'd also agree that you have to move beyond your issues about money since you'll be competing for spots with kids who have NO issues about spending what ever it takes to get in.

    Good luck!
     
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