Retina lifestyle and retina fellowship

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

curious cat

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2000
Messages
34
Reaction score
0
Can anybody comment on the lifestyle of a vitreoretinal surgeon? Is it really as bad as everyone says it is? If so, how bad?

Can anyone also comment on which retina fellowships are the most sought after? Which fellowships out there are considered to give the best training, whether it be academic programs or private practice programs?

Thanks.

Members don't see this ad.
 
bringin' up your post again as I'm also curious about the retina lifestyle.

I've heard only that it's more like general surgery, but am unclear as to in what ways. Is it the hours? The attitude? The call schedule? All of the above? Are there days in clinic, or are most days post-op rounds and then into the OR?

Any R-V folks care to comment on what their lives are like?

P
 
Originally posted by curious cat
Can anybody comment on the lifestyle of a vitreoretinal surgeon? Is it really as bad as everyone says it is? If so, how bad?

Can anyone also comment on which retina fellowships are the most sought after? Which fellowships out there are considered to give the best training, whether it be academic programs or private practice programs?

Thanks.

Here's an example. An intraocular foreign body came in to the clinic last Thursday followed by a MAC-On retina detachment. The retina surgeon went to the OR at 5:30 PM for the IOFB and did not finish the case until 1:00 AM. Then the MAC-ON RD was bumped b/c a potential open globe needed the OR, and he had to go back at 4 AM and operate on the MAC-ON RD until 9 AM.

Yes, being a retina surgeon is busy. It's busier than general ophthalmology.

The best programs for Retina have been typically Wilmer, Bascom Palmer, Wills, Iowa, MEEI, USC, Jules Stein, Oregon, etc... There are many others too.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Originally posted by Primate
bringin' up your post again as I'm also curious about the retina lifestyle.

I've heard only that it's more like general surgery, but am unclear as to in what ways. Is it the hours? The attitude? The call schedule? All of the above? Are there days in clinic, or are most days post-op rounds and then into the OR?

Any R-V folks care to comment on what their lives are like?

P

You have clinic in Retina. About 40-50 patients per day in clinic. 3-4 days in clinic and 1-2 days in the OR per week. Call can be busy because there are less retina specialists to take the call with you. Any trauma that detaches the retina or results in an intraocular foreign body, you're the surgeon to fix it.
 
andrew, how are retina surgeries done? i mean how do u access the retina? are there little robot arms that just pierce the sclera of the anterior eye ??
 
Originally posted by chef
andrew, how are retina surgeries done? i mean how do u access the retina? are there little robot arms that just pierce the sclera of the anterior eye ??

The surgeon places small ports in the pars plana. Surgical instruments can be inserted through these ports. No robotics involved. Retina surgery requires a steady hand.
 
What is the salary like compared to general ophthalmology and other subs?
 
Now is that an extreme case? I didn't think being a retinal specialist would be as intense as a general surgeon. Jesus!

I'm also suprised they're not in surgery more... Are there other surgical specialties in ophtho that aren't that bad?
 
Originally posted by snoopdizzle
Now is that an extreme case? I didn't think being a retinal specialist would be as intense as a general surgeon. Jesus!

I'm also suprised they're not in surgery more... Are there other surgical specialties in ophtho that aren't that bad?

Retina surgeons can be as busy as general surgeons. One of the faculty here joke that ophthalmologists who decide to pursue retina forfeit their ophthalmology life-style and assume the life similar to a CT surgeon. It's busy.

The other sub-specialities are much less demanding.
 
Just wanted to give a broad perspective on the "Retina lifestyle". I have several friends and a fiancee that do full-time retina (CA, NY, DC, TN, OK, MI, LA). Academic retina is different than private practice retina. Most of my friends are not in academia and have very rewarding and comfortable lifestyles. In most large cities most eye trauma goes to the University teaching hospital. I do about 2-4 after-hours surgical cases a year from referring ophthalmologists (retinal detachments, trauma, some endophthalmitis cases). I get home before 9pm in those rare instances. I occasionally refer these cases to the university (not often in order to reliably be there for my referring doctors). I'm on staff at only one hospital and was relieved of call duty after one year (atypical, but nice that the Gen. ophthos in town waived hospital call for my retina group). I belong to a retina-only group, and I believe this is generally better than a general-retina mix practice (ie. multispecialty group). I work 3.5 - 4 days a week (about 35 - 40 hours) depending on my surgery schedule. Most endopthalmitis cases (eye infections) and about 60% of retinal detachments are treated in the office (20-45 minute procedures thanks to our great staff). Thus, the RARE 2-4 yearly after-hours cases. The rest are elective cases on my surgery days. I see about 150 patients per week (I think I've learned to balance giving patients my time and being efficient). I have 2 partners and that allows us to spread the work around. We see a large amount of diabetic retinopathy, exudative macular degeneration, retinal detachments, cataract surgery complications, and all the other stuff that keeps it interesting. I have 2-3 half days a week off to do personal errands, meet referal MD's and OD's, and occasionally to catch up on paperwork at the office. I perform about 1-3 in-office procedures per week, 25-30 laser treatments per week, and about 2-6 OR surgeries a week. The OR surgeries vary from 40 minute macular hole/epiretinal membrane cases, 1.25 hour routine RD/diabetic cases, to 2-2.5 hour PVR/TRD cases. We are fortunate to have an efficient 2 OR setup and can do up to 5 cases in one day and be done as early as 3pm, depending on the cases. I occasionally use one of my free half-days to even out the cases during the week and to always have an elective surgery day within about 2-3 days of seeing a patient. So, in general I think it is a misconception that retinal surgeons necessarily have a terrible lifestyle (I laugh when people compare it to General Surgery). Not all my retina friends have the same schedule as I do, but most are in similar situations. I think one reason for the misconception is that academia is MUCH different than private practice. My fiancee actually works less than I do but doesn't want to be as busy, she basically works about 3 days a week (less than 30 hours). I would say that my lifestyle is comparable to the general ophthalmologists in my city, except that I work until 5:00 pm on friday and all the gen ophthos in town are gone at noon! Another misconception is that all our patients end up with horrible vision. Our local OD's and MD's refer early in the disease process, and I have come to enjoy how well many patients do compared to what I saw in residency and fellowship. Pneumatic retinopexy frequently can take a macula-off retinal detachment from hand motion vision to 20/30 or better vision (about 60% of our RD patients are fixed in the office). I see diabetics with count fingers vision that can see well enough to read or drive after vitrectomy. I also enjoy the surgical variety of vitreoretinal surgery. Doing retina does pay well, I average about 800K. One of my partners makes more, and one contemplating retirement makes less as he is slowing down. Generally retinal surgeons average more than the general ophthalmologists, but every city has a few super high-volume cataract/refractive surgeons that make some the highest salaries in medicine. Our local super doc makes close to 2 mill per year. But realize that only a fraction of all the general ophthalmologists in the country can build that kind of practice. As far as hospital work, I admit 2-4 patients a year to the hospital (its enjoyable to occasionally round on patients in the hospital). In terms of fellowships, I would recommend that you seek training in an environment where you have a large amount of hands-on experience in the OR. I would never discourage anyone from getting the best medical retina training they can, but if you can't do the difficult surgical cases well and efficiently, then some of the negative attitudes about retinal surgery will come true. You have to be able to do the tough surgeries in order to get the clinic referals. One of my friends didn't have the best surgical training and he struggled for several years in private practice before he began enjoying his practice more. I would reiterate that practicing in an ALL-RETINA group may be more satisfying than being the only retina person for a large multispecialty group. In my group we spread the call around (I very rarely go to the office after hours), there is a wonderful comraderie and we discuss tough cases together, and we get more referals because we don't compete with general ophthalmologists. Also, things can be more efficient when everyone in the office is geared toward retinal diseases. I believe most people that get good training in surgical retina can practice in this manner. You may be somewhat geographically limited as the best jobs don't grow on trees, but if you find partners willing to treat you with respect, and more importantly if you treat your patients and refering docs well, I think retinal surgery can be extremely rewarding. Good luck to everyone making career choices out there!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Whoa! Great post! SO why would someone choose to do academic retina over private practice. Is it something you're stuck with or is it a choice? Also, how was retina fellowship? Was that like general surgery residency? What percentage of retina specialists have a low hour low call schedule like yours?
 
Originally posted by snoopdizzle
Whoa! Great post! SO why would someone choose to do academic retina over private practice. Is it something you're stuck with or is it a choice??

Definitely a choice. Some enjoy the academic environment and academic challenges. Academic physicians see some of the most challenging cases. Others may enjoy doing research.

While large group retina practices can be as good as stated above, if you're in a smaller retina practice (i.e. one or two) and working with a general ophthalmology group, your call structure and schedule will be more demanding.

Finally, academia is never something you're stuck with. It is a choice. Some of the best retina physicians are solely academic doctors. Just remember that money isn't everything.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I must apologize if I sounded disparaging toward academic medicine. I have tremendous respect for all my former teachers and friends. I was only trying to point out a difference. Because the more difficult or rare diseases get sent to academic centers, the day to day environment is different. In private practice you can choose to take care of the difficult cases or refer them to your colleagues at the university. Academic attendings don't necessarily have a bad lifesyle either. The residents and fellows are there to learn and help them shoulder the burden of the more difficult problems. Research is important also, or we will never improve how we take care of patients. The academic doctor that really loves to teach and cares about residents/fellows is a treasure in my opinion. A survey many years ago suggested that only about 10-15% of academic attendings liked teaching, but enjoyed the clinic/OR support from fellows and residents. The Retina community is small and we have several great meetings every year. Almost all the cutting edge technology and treatment modalities are available to everyone in a short period of time. In our practice, we have Photodynamic therapy, Ocular coherence tomography, Fluorescein/ICG angiography, we have even done some macular translocation. Certainly, some of the best and brightest are in academic medicine. But, I believe many of the best and brightest are in the private practice world also (possibly Ophtho_MudPhud one day?). In private practice you will see most of the rare diseases, just less often than the university doctors do. I recently saw an intraocular lymphoma, for example. I enjoy my interactions with the university professors, its sort of like grand rounds, we put our heads together and hopefully come up with the best plan for our patients. I agree, money isn't everything. Unfortunately, many people choose ophthalmology for financial reasons only. Personally, I find the relationships I have with my patients, the intellectual stimulation of medicine, and relationships with my staff and partners to be the great joy of my career. Although it is important to give of yourself to your career and patients, I also like the idea of having balance in your life. I treasure the time I get to spend with my family, partners, and friends away from the office. As far as fellowship training goes, there are 1 and 2 year programs. Usually the 2 year programs are better (not always, and I haven't kept up with them). I have to admit, that my retina fellowship was MUCH busier than my residency. Probably not like General Surgery, but certainly busy. I enjoyed my fellowship anyway. As far as call in private practice, most retina docs share call with other ophthalmologists on staff at the hospitals. Most of my retina friends say that open globes are primarily closed by the person on call and then get refered to them the next day if need be. Some cities have "city call" where all the ophthalmologists in the city spread the hospital call around (still take call for own patients however) so each doctor may be on hospital call for a few weeks per year. The best advice I can give you, snoopdizzle, is to choose a career that is in line with your talents, temperament, and your heart. Best wishes!
 
retina guy, how long have u been in practice?

btw thanks for sharing great info, but have u heard of paragraphs?? LOL
 
Yeah, I really enjoyed those as well. I don't know why ophtho isn't more popular than it is. I am intrigued by the retina option, because if you find during your residency that you want something more intense you can go for it. EIther way, the specialty seems like a sweet deal and an interesting field to boot.
 
Would you mind expanding on the job opportunity subject? What is it like finding a job as a young retina doc? Are you "recruited" often"? What are starting salaries like?

Also, how much vacation?
 
I have been in practice about 4 years. Yes, I should format these in paragraphs, hehe. Ophthalmology is not as popular as other specialties for many reasons. There is limited exposure to it in most medical schools. Many people feel it has less core medical and surgical qualities to it than other mainstream specialties. People are attracted to different things. I think finding good jobs in medicine takes some work. Large cities are predominantly saturated with eye docs. It may take longer to build a busy practice in large cities, but it can be done. There are plenty of jobs in semi-rural areas, but unless you do some general ophthalmology, you will have to do some traveling in your area to stay busy. Also, I have seen a trend in multispecialty or General ophthalmology practices looking to hire their own retina doc. Sometimes, these groups want to make extra revenue by keeping the retina "in house". Many people get taken advantage of for greedy reasons. Some never achieve true partnership and leave. There are recruiters out there, but their primary interest is placing you in a job and getting their placement fee. I believe retina only groups are best, but these jobs are harder to find. Three friends of mine went out on their own, struggled at first, and are now very happy. Unfortunately, it is difficult to be ultra selective about geography if you want the best job. But you can go anywhere if you work hard and persist and maybe even take a temporary job somewhere else until you can work out the perfect geography. I recommend talking to ophthalmologists in the town/city you want to go to. I looked at a large number of potential jobs, screened out many jobs on the phone, and interviewed at several places. I actually got my job through an older retina surgeon who is a friend. Even then, you won't know if you are in the right place until you have practiced there for awhile. I would say that most solid job offers a few years ago were between 150K to 200K. There were some offers 200K to 250K. Don't get fixated on only the highest salary, though. One job I looked at had a very high salary but was probably a very bad situation. I could write a pamphlet on the nuances of looking for a great practice to join. You should expect to become a partner in 1-3 years, 2 years being average. There are practices that only offer employee positions. They are probably only interested in improving their incomes through your hard work. Usually vacation to start is 2-3 weeks plus 1 week educational leave. This is usually increased the second year of employment. Anyway, hope this information is useful.
 
Does the "set your own hours" part of it come in when you're a partner. Does that also coincide with a large jump in salary?
 
this q doesnt really go w/ the thread but i'll ask it here b/c retina guy seems to have realworld practice experience and knows many eye docs -

in large city ophtho practices, how much does the race/ethnicity of the doc affect the pts one sees? for example, do asian docs tend to mostly see asian pts b/c asian pts prefer asian docs, or does race have zero role in determining the pt population for each doc?
 
Originally posted by chef
this q doesnt really go w/ the thread but i'll ask it here b/c retina guy seems to have realworld practice experience and knows many eye docs -

in large city ophtho practices, how much does the race/ethnicity of the doc affect the pts one sees? for example, do asian docs tend to mostly see asian pts b/c asian pts prefer asian docs, or does race have zero role in determining the pt population for each doc?

There are numerous asian ophthalmologists in practice in large cities with diverse patient populations. While initial racial barriers may exist, these are simply superficial. During the residency, we may even see some racial bias... but this is really rare. Out of thousands of patients I've seen, only one has refused evaluation from a "foreign doctor". Don't worry, losing one or two patients a year or even a month because of patients' racial bias will not hurt your practice. We live in a much more accepting time. Furthermore, medical schools are graduating more ethnic physicians these days; and if you look around the hospital, caucasions are the minority in some departments. Just my 2 cents.
 
How do you go from 200K to 800K?
 
Just wanted to thank retina_guy for his valuable advise and input.

I am sure there are many of us out there getting close to the end of residency..trying to figure out the best path to take.

:confused:
 
Originally posted by jkin
How do you go from 200K to 800K?

It sounds like retina_guy is doing tons of laser treatments. Depending on the laser treatment, the surgeon can bill $1200-$1800 per treatment.

Retina_guy states that he is doing: "25-30 laser treatments per week".

With an average $1500/treatment, then he is billing $37,500-$45,000 per week for lasers alone. The laser treatment can only be billed once per 90-day period in a patient. So if a patient is returning for multiple PRP treatments, then the patient cannot be billed again until the 90-day period expires. Thus, the above figure may be an over estimation. 25-30 laser treatments per week seem high to me, but it sounds like retina_guy has a busy practice.

Best regards,
 
So are you saying 800K is not as normal as he is acting like it is?
 
Originally posted by jkin
So are you saying 800K is not as normal as he is acting like it is?

jkin,

I never said that.

Published averages for private practice retina surgeons range from $400-$500K/year. I know several practices that pay their retina docs close to the $800K/mark. My point was that if retina_guy is doing as many laser procedures as stated in his post, then he is billing on average $40,000/week or $160,000/month. Thus, his laser billing is averaging $1.9million/year. This billing easily pays for the cost of a new laser, his lease, cost of staff, and his $800K salary.
 
Thanks!

Are you considering retina?
Are there other ophtho subspecialties that have salaries this much higher than general?
 
Originally posted by jkin
Thanks!

Are you considering retina?
Are there other ophtho subspecialties that have salaries this much higher than general?

I am not considering surgical retina. However, I have an interest in medical retina. Additionally, I joined the Navy last year after starting ophthalmology residency, and there is a need for ocular pathologists and neuro-op; so, I'm in the process of lining up my ducks to do both ocular path/neuro-op fellowships. Academia is where more heart is. I want to do research, teach, and care for patients.

In regards to high paying sub-specialties, oculoplastic surgeons are able to make very comfortable incomes.

Keep one thing in mind. Anyone in medicine or ophthalmology can make high salaries if they establish a practice like an assembly line and crank. LASIK surgeons can make seven figure salaries. There are cataract practices that can make over $500K/year. While these large volume practices provide an invaluable service to the delivery of health care, I don't find this rewarding. I don't think money is the ultimate goal in medicine.

My advice is to pick a field that sparks passion in your heart. Don't go for the money; otherwise, I fear you'll burn out quickly.

Good luck!
 
I absolutely agree. I have been interested in ophthalmology from day one for many reasons. But now that I am actually getting closer I am trying to get as much info as possible. Not because I am in it for the money, only so that I don't make a decision without knowing a key bit of information. Thank you.
 
Hi everyone!

First off, thanks so much too all the posters on this thread, Retina_Guy, Dr. Doan, etc. Super informative stuff.

Few more questions...

1) I've read that annual salary can go as low as ~30k per year while in retina fellowship... Is this true? And if so, is it the rule or the exception? Do some people end up having to take out supplementary loans during these two years?

2) Are most retina fellowships at 501(c)(3) institutions? I presume the private practice ones are not? Or are fellows at such programs able to have loan payments count towards Public Service Loan Forgiveness if the private practice where their fellowship is has any sort of university affiliation? (Sorry if this is a dumb / sneaky question...)

3) How large (if at all) is the difference between average salary in academic retina vs private practice retina after fellowship? Are the job opportunities in the private sector generally such that the higher annual salary over most academic jobs multiplied by the 4 years after surgical retina fellowship to get to the 10-year mark for PSLF outweighs the amount of loans forgiven under PSLF?
 
Hi everyone!

First off, thanks so much too all the posters on this thread, Retina_Guy, Dr. Doan, etc. Super informative stuff.

Few more questions...

1) I've read that annual salary can go as low as ~30k per year while in retina fellowship... Is this true? And if so, is it the rule or the exception? Do some people end up having to take out supplementary loans during these two years?

2) Are most retina fellowships at 501(c)(3) institutions? I presume the private practice ones are not? Or are fellows at such programs able to have loan payments count towards Public Service Loan Forgiveness if the private practice where their fellowship is has any sort of university affiliation? (Sorry if this is a dumb / sneaky question...)

3) How large (if at all) is the difference between average salary in academic retina vs private practice retina after fellowship? Are the job opportunities in the private sector generally such that the higher annual salary over most academic jobs multiplied by the 4 years after surgical retina fellowship to get to the 10-year mark for PSLF outweighs the amount of loans forgiven under PSLF?

Keep in mind that the info you see here is nearly 15 years old and fairly out of date (medicine changes faster than you think!) With the advances in vitreoretinal surgical technology as well as changing standards of care, the lifestyle isn't as bad as it used to be. In fact, I would argue we're kind of in a retina renaissance era (or at least the past several years has been so).

1) Annual salary in fellowship ranges from where you do fellowship. Some places pay you commensurately with your PGY level, other places pay you a flat salary. I was lucky to have mine on the PGY pay scale, but on average what I've seen is that 40k tends to be the average. Some places let you moonlight for more money. Some places also barely pay you any money (one fellowship in New Orleans paid 13k a year...less than minimum wage).

2) Surprisingly there are a large number of fellowships at private practices and are not 501(c)(3) affiliated. The latter is a tricky question and I'm not sure how to best answer that.

3) A lot of it depends on location, at least for starting. For more prestigious academic universities, you tend to get paid less compared to private practice (though I think I was lucky). The job opportunities in the private sector can be fairly lucrative, especially if you are in a high need area, and pay can quickly reach > 500k after a few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
1. Yes some fellowships pay very poorly but many now pay on a pgy scale. I went to a private practice fellowship and was treated very well on that end (and many others!)
2. No idea
3. I wouldn't keep a loan around for 10 years getting underpaid in the process. That's penny wise pound foolish. If you are interested in academics do that, otherwise go private and pay off your loans quickly. My 2 cents
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do either of you know which fellowships don't qualify for PSLF? There are quite a few excellent hybrid programs like Beaumont/ARC, Tufts/OCB, UAB/RCA, RGW/Georgetown, etc., and I'm wondering what fellows do regarding loan burden if they don't qualify since they include significant private practice time. I assume you continue payments according to salary, as in residency, until you finish, but that those 2 years wouldn't count towards PSLF.
 
Do either of you know which fellowships don't qualify for PSLF? There are quite a few excellent hybrid programs like Beaumont/ARC, Tufts/OCB, UAB/RCA, RGW/Georgetown, etc., and I'm wondering what fellows do regarding loan burden if they don't qualify since they include significant private practice time. I assume you continue payments according to salary, as in residency, until you finish, but that those 2 years wouldn't count towards PSLF.
I understand everyone's situation is different, but I'll tell you what I did. I chose the best fellowship that matched best with my goals regardless of PSLF. I got great training then landed a great job where I wanted to be (major metro area on the coast). During fellowship I put loans on forebarence and deferment. When I finished and started getting paid real money, I lived on less than I made and paid back my loans in 2.5 years ($200k). I was single during residency and married during fellowship (no kids). I never once considered PSLF just based on my goals and personality.

I guess my only bit of advice for you would be to not decline an offer to train at an excellent program simply because it won't help you with PSLF. That would be a real shame. Otherwise good luck to you
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I understand everyone's situation is different, but I'll tell you what I did. I chose the best fellowship that matched best with my goals regardless of PSLF. I got great training then landed a great job where I wanted to be (major metro area on the coast). During fellowship I put loans on forebarence and deferment. When I finished and started getting paid real money, I lived on less than I made and paid back my loans in 2.5 years ($200k). I was single during residency and married during fellowship (no kids). I never once considered PSLF just based on my goals and personality.

I guess my only bit of advice for you would be to not decline an offer to train at an excellent program simply because it won't help you with PSLF. That would be a real shame. Otherwise good luck to you

The plus with PSLF is that you know it's paid off, though. I'm going to have nearly 400k in loans pre-interest, so if it's between deferring for 6 years for residency and fellowship but having a huge debt afterward, and paying a pittance those 6 years but having the option to do a mere 4 years more and then have all the rest forgiven, I would lean to the latter. Sure, you could do the cost analysis, and maybe it makes more sense to just forget PSLF, but I'd rather have the option to go either way at the 6 year mark. And if your first 2 years in PP are at a significantly lower salary than you would get once you hit partner, then really we're talking about you making big bucks just two years before you'd have it completely forgiven through PSLF. To each their own, certainly, but personally I prefer the option that guarantees freedom 4 years after fellowship over the one that is dependent on what jobs I can find, and which may make me choose to go somewhere I don't want just for income that allows me to pay off loans quicker.
 
The plus with PSLF is that you know it's paid off, though. I'm going to have nearly 400k in loans pre-interest, so if it's between deferring for 6 years for residency and fellowship but having a huge debt afterward, and paying a pittance those 6 years but having the option to do a mere 4 years more and then have all the rest forgiven, I would lean to the latter. Sure, you could do the cost analysis, and maybe it makes more sense to just forget PSLF, but I'd rather have the option to go either way at the 6 year mark. And if your first 2 years in PP are at a significantly lower salary than you would get once you hit partner, then really we're talking about you making big bucks just two years before you'd have it completely forgiven through PSLF. To each their own, certainly, but personally I prefer the option that guarantees freedom 4 years after fellowship over the one that is dependent on what jobs I can find, and which may make me choose to go somewhere I don't want just for income that allows me to pay off loans quicker.
I would argue you are more limited in terms of job choice if you choose PSLF. You have to work in a public/non profit institution. I don’t think any government program is guaranteed, just ask the hundreds who applied for PSLF this year just to find out later they didn’t qualify! It’s a numbers thing and a personality thing. To each their own for sure
 
I would argue you are more limited in terms of job choice if you choose PSLF. You have to work in a public/non profit institution. I don’t think any government program is guaranteed, just ask the hundreds who applied for PSLF this year just to find out later they didn’t qualify! It’s a numbers thing and a personality thing. To each their own for sure
Oh, it definitely limits your opportunities once you're out of fellowship, but if I'm not mistaken, most residencies and fellowships are at 501(c)(3)S, so it would only leave 4 years left if, for example, you did a surgical retina fellowship, and at that point you could decide if it's worth N it to continue with PSLF or just pay it off yourself.
 
Yes that’s right. Just remember right out of med school you have to start making loan repayments as per the program, never miss a payment and fulfill all their requirements. Then out of fellowship you have to continue doing so and get a job in the public/non profit sector. Then hope after all that work that some beurocrat doesn’t decide to alter the program.
 
I would not do PSLF as an ophthlamologist.

First, you're assuming that if you do a fellowship, the terms for PSFL don't change and that you would qualify. Second, your potential income will easily be able to pay off your loans as long as you aren't financially reckless during your training.

The big thing is that the biggest thing you'll sacrifice is your autonomy after fellowship. There is a strong reason why these non-profit/public sector jobs are open: it may be fun for the first year or two, but the drawbacks will make you miserable (little room for growth, loss of significant autonomy, . Your potential salary as a general ophthalmologist after a few years can range from 300 to 500K, if not more. If you do retina, you'll make that much right away.

You may be in a situation where the PSFL works out for you perfectly, but I would advise against it in most situations. My opinion is that the first few years out of training are crucial in terms of developing your career. I know a few fellow ophthalmologists who were in a similar situation and basically had their careers derailed a few years by being in such situations.
 
I would not do PSLF as an ophthlamologist.

First, you're assuming that if you do a fellowship, the terms for PSFL don't change and that you would qualify. Second, your potential income will easily be able to pay off your loans as long as you aren't financially reckless during your training.

The big thing is that the biggest thing you'll sacrifice is your autonomy after fellowship. There is a strong reason why these non-profit/public sector jobs are open: it may be fun for the first year or two, but the drawbacks will make you miserable (little room for growth, loss of significant autonomy, . Your potential salary as a general ophthalmologist after a few years can range from 300 to 500K, if not more. If you do retina, you'll make that much right away.

You may be in a situation where the PSFL works out for you perfectly, but I would advise against it in most situations. My opinion is that the first few years out of training are crucial in terms of developing your career. I know a few fellow ophthalmologists who were in a similar situation and basically had their careers derailed a few years by being in such situations.
Thank you for writing this - it's certainly food for thought. 2 questions:
1) As a retina associate, you make 300-500 k? I've seen the numbers quoted much lower on other SDN posts, but I never know what to believe since no one ever agrees here or elsewhere.
2) Would you mind sharing how that derailed your colleagues' careers? I'm not fully following why those first couple years out of fellowship are so crucial. Is it just a matter of people getting complacent in the job they do for those couple years, or results from being miserable those couple years, or something I'm missing?
Thank you!
 
Thank you for writing this - it's certainly food for thought. 2 questions:
1) As a retina associate, you make 300-500 k? I've seen the numbers quoted much lower on other SDN posts, but I never know what to believe since no one ever agrees here or elsewhere.
2) Would you mind sharing how that derailed your colleagues' careers? I'm not fully following why those first couple years out of fellowship are so crucial. Is it just a matter of people getting complacent in the job they do for those couple years, or results from being miserable those couple years, or something I'm missing?
Thank you!

Sure.

1) Yes, starting out I did make between that amount. Where I live, if anything it’s on the smaller side because I’m in academics. The private offerings were easily >500K. In fellowship there was an offer of 750K, but I really had no desire to take my family there where the job was offered.
2) one of my friends started out at the VA with a part time gig at the academic side. Without giving out too many details, he was basically miserable at the VA because most of his work was medical
And he was only able to operate once a week or two. Once he started operating and working more at the academic side due to the volume, his employers at the VA became more irate with him and made his life difficult. He left after a few years for another job.

The reason why it’s important is because at those years, that’s when you have the most up to date knowledge and that your surgical proficiency (note; not overall skill level) is sharpest. It’s also the best time to not only hone your skills, but also develop enough surgical autonomy that you can develop new skills on your own. If you look in the community, you will often find older docs using surgical techniques that are nearly out of date - I knew a few people out for decades still using 20G routinely. You want to be in a place that does not let you become surgically complacent.
 
Sure.

1) Yes, starting out I did make between that amount. Where I live, if anything it’s on the smaller side because I’m in academics. The private offerings were easily >500K. In fellowship there was an offer of 750K, but I really had no desire to take my family there where the job was offered.
2) one of my friends started out at the VA with a part time gig at the academic side. Without giving out too many details, he was basically miserable at the VA because most of his work was medical
And he was only able to operate once a week or two. Once he started operating and working more at the academic side due to the volume, his employers at the VA became more irate with him and made his life difficult. He left after a few years for another job.

The reason why it’s important is because at those years, that’s when you have the most up to date knowledge and that your surgical proficiency (note; not overall skill level) is sharpest. It’s also the best time to not only hone your skills, but also develop enough surgical autonomy that you can develop new skills on your own. If you look in the community, you will often find older docs using surgical techniques that are nearly out of date - I knew a few people out for decades still using 20G routinely. You want to be in a place that does not let you become surgically complacent.
That makes a lot of sense, and I hadn't really thought about it that way before. Certainly food for thought; thank you.
 
Top