Retired from Medicine at 43: Why, How, and What Now?

[BLADEMDA]

I enjoyed his post on early retirement and congratulate him on meeting his goal of FIRE.

Retired from Medicine at 43: Why, How, and What Now? - Physician on FIRE

I retired from a career as an anesthesiologist at age 43. Why would I leave this lucrative field, how did I make the decision, and what will I be doing now?

www.physicianonfire.com

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[ryanjmy]

I guess technically he’s financially independent but I really don’t associate “forced minimalism” and a tiny home with wealth.

If I had to I could live the rest of my life with the money I’ve already accumulated but it would require major sacrifices. I won’t consider myself financially independent until I can live comfortably and do most of the things I enjoy.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I would be bored out of my mind

 

[deleted171991]

I guess technically he’s financially independent but I really don’t associate “forced minimalism” and a tiny home with wealth.

If I had to I could live the rest of my life with the money I’ve already accumulated but it would require major sacrifices. I won’t consider myself financially independent until I can live comfortably and do most of the things I enjoy.

A man who spends one dollar less than what he makes is wealthy. A man who spends one dollar more than what he makes is poor. (I think I am paraphrasing Ben Franklin, not sure.)

Everything else is a matter of perspective. For example, time is limited, hence priceless. Especially time spent with growing children.

I have seen more happy so-called "poor" folk than rich ones. Usually the rich don't know when to stop.

 

[nimbus]

I’d be lonely and unfulfilled without work. I like walking into work and saying “goodmorning” to my friends.

 

[deleted162650]

I’d be lonely and unfulfilled without work. I like walking into work and saying “goodmorning” to my friends.

You could always get some friends outside the hospital.

 

[vector2]

I would be bored out of my mind

Really, the problem is not being bored, but having the money to make your retirement a good experience and not a "stay in my shtty house 24/7 and eat canned beans" experience.

I would:

1. Spend time with wife and kids
2. Travel $$$$
3. Get back into mastering a foreign language ($$$ if serious and get a tutor)
4. Learn to golf and ski $$$$
5. Take my car to the track $$
6. Get serious about guitar again $
7. Catch up on the bazillion books in my read-for-pleasure list $
8. Catch up on the bazillion shows in my bingewatch-for-pleasure list $
9. Hit a bunch of a restaurants I haven't been to yet $$$
10. Start working out with a personal trainer $$



Even still, I think I might miss work a bit. But I'd only come back if I could find some way to work part-time, no call, only pump cases and occasional ICU rounding time (like maybe a weekend cover here and there).

 

[coffeebythelake]

Really, the problem is not being bored, but having the money to make your retirement a good experience and not a "stay in my shtty house 24/7 and eat canned beans" experience.

I would:

1. Spend time with wife and kids
2. Travel $$$$
3. Get back into mastering a foreign language ($$$ if serious and get a tutor)
4. Learn to golf and ski $$$$
5. Take my car to the track $$
6. Get serious about guitar again $
7. Catch up on the bazillion books in my read-for-pleasure list $
8. Catch up on the bazillion shows in my bingewatch-for-pleasure list $
9. Hit a bunch of a restaurants I haven't been to yet $$$
10. Start working out with a personal trainer $$



Even still, I think I might miss work a bit. But I'd only come back if I could find some way to work part-time, no call, only pump cases and occasional ICU rounding time (like maybe a weekend cover here and there).

I had to take a few months off work due to visa issues.
The first month was great and I did exactly what you're saying: travel, vacation, do new things, etc
The second month was excruciating and just itching to get back to work: had the $ and could have easily travelled, but what I did was slept in every day, felt so unfulfilled

 

[sevoflurane]

Really, the problem is not being bored, but having the money to make your retirement a good experience and not a "stay in my shtty house 24/7 and eat canned beans" experience.

I would:

1. Spend time with wife and kids
2. Travel $$$$
3. Get back into mastering a foreign language ($$$ if serious and get a tutor)
4. Learn to golf and ski $$$$
5. Take my car to the track $$
6. Get serious about guitar again $
7. Catch up on the bazillion books in my read-for-pleasure list $
8. Catch up on the bazillion shows in my bingewatch-for-pleasure list $
9. Hit a bunch of a restaurants I haven't been to yet $$$
10. Start working out with a personal trainer $$



Even still, I think I might miss work a bit. But I'd only come back if I could find some way to work part-time, no call, only pump cases and occasional ICU rounding time (like maybe a weekend cover here and there).

Completely agree. I would not be bored, but I would miss some of the satisfaction of our jobs. Pretty sure I’d get over that quickly.

My question is how much does it take to live the life you describe above. 150-200k/year?

How much in the bank if you want to retire by 50. 4,5,6+ mil?

 

[DM27]

My main goal is not so much FIRE as to achieve financial independence and go part-time (work 2 days a week) as early as possible, and eventually fully retire when I no longer derive enjoyment from work. I cherish my time outside of work, but I also find work fulfilling in its own way, I just want to shift the balance towards lifestyle as early as possible and then be able to stop working at whatever point I can no longer derive enjoyment from it.

Regarding the post above, my number is $5million for an expected full retirement at 55. This will likely change with time and depending on if I go part time early or decide to push retirement and spend interim time after 55 as part time.

Physician on FIRE seems to have taken the FIRE Lean approach, which is too spooky for me especially because of its higher reliance both on your rate of return in retirement and your ability to perpetuate a contracted lifestyle with the added risk of possible financial issues with older children and unexpected health issues. I am also not sure if he is in a similar position to WCI where his website is generating enough income that it essentially rendered his working income as almost unnecessary. The post briefly addresses the website as producing income but does not go into much detail as to how much.

One thing I wish from a lot of these FIRE type posts is more transparency about their actual financials, I am happy for him for being able to retire at 43, and he deserves the right for a brag post. However, the educational value is lacking without some hint as to if he is some major outlier (maybe he makes >700k a year, maybe he and his wife live a unibomberesque life and their living expenses are 20k/year).

 

[IMGASMD]

My main goal is not so much FIRE as to achieve financial independence and go part-time (work 2 days a week) as early as possible, and eventually fully retire when I no longer derive enjoyment from work. I cherish my time outside of work, but I also find work fulfilling in its own way, I just want to shift the balance towards lifestyle as early as possible and then be able to stop working at whatever point I can no longer derive enjoyment from it.

Regarding the post above, my number is $5million for an expected full retirement at 55. This will likely change with time and depending on if I go part time early or decide to push retirement and spend interim time after 55 as part time.

Physician on FIRE seems to have taken the FIRE Lean approach, which is too spooky for me especially because of its higher reliance both on your rate of return in retirement and your ability to perpetuate a contracted lifestyle with the added risk of possible financial issues with older children and unexpected health issues. I am also not sure if he is in a similar position to WCI where his website is generating enough income that it essentially rendered his working income as almost unnecessary. The post briefly addresses the website as producing income but does not go into much detail as to how much.

One thing I wish from a lot of these FIRE type posts is more transparency about their actual financials, I am happy for him for being able to retire at 43, and he deserves the right for a brag post. However, the educational value is lacking without some hint as to if he is some major outlier (maybe he makes >700k a year, maybe he and his wife live a unibomberesque life and their living expenses are 20k/year).

He does, in his post mentions, live in a 90k house.

Maybe I haven’t been to rural or super low COL area, but I know for sure my SO would never ever live in that house. I personally, cannot imagine a 90k house without at least some work that has to be done.

 

[pjl]

He is pretty vocal about the concept of FatFIRE, which people discuss meaning living a much better life than you guys are thinking when you see the 90k house. I think he describes it as living on >100k/year. I suspect he is living off an amount substantially higher than that. Remember that he won’t have a mortgage payment, has fully funded 529s for kids, and won’t need to save for retirement anymore. Also he will continue making a substantial blog income.

From other reading, he likes to travel extensively for months at a time, so I expect his use of his house is low. He also mentions the “lake home” which is probably worth a lot more than the 90k one.

 

[Southpaw]

He has two homes without a mortgage, including a lake home. He can spend summers there with his family now without worrying about work. He has funded the 529s and funded his retirement accounts for the lifestyle he lives. And I’m sure he’ll continue to blog. He’s a great writer. Good for him. He won the race - no need to keep running.

 

[okayplayer]

He also has 100k/year in blog income...Not something most of us have to help cushion our loss in clinical income.

Not trying to be a hater, just telling it like it is.

 

[okayplayer]

Okay, fine I am being a hater.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Okay, fine I am being a hater.

No, I think you're right. So many of these FIRE types talk about how they "retire" at age X, and conveniently forgetting to mention the high 5 to 6 figure income they make off their blog, as if that's not work.

With no mortgage and kids' education paid for, I think $4M at 55 is plenty fatFIRE.

 

[abolt18]

I guess technically he’s financially independent but I really don’t associate “forced minimalism” and a tiny home with wealth.

If I had to I could live the rest of my life with the money I’ve already accumulated but it would require major sacrifices. I won’t consider myself financially independent until I can live comfortably and do most of the things I enjoy.

If you really read his blog and his story, he has not experienced "forced minimalism." He simply already lived that way. He has documented for years that his family's spending is ~60-80K per year and they want for nothing.

People complained about "leanFIRE" but he has made it abundantly clear in his blog and in podcasts that once he realized he was already financing independent (net worth > 25x his yearly spending), he continued to work for several years so he could have a lot more than the 25x. I think he's said he's more like 33x. He then went part time to see if less work would make him like it more. He just found that he hated it even more and decided to quit entirely.

If you read his blog and sign up for his emails, he goes into quite a bit detail about the actual numbers behind his success as an anesthesiologist and as a blogger. Additionally, half of all the money that comes in from the blog goes to charity.

Reading his blog made me very excited to pursue FI, but reading about the RE part just made me anxious to be done working one day and I haven't even finished residency! I had to stop reading about the early retirement stuff.

 

[deleted171991]

And he didn't even move to a cheaper country with a better climate, such as Spain, which would make that retirement even sweeter.

 

[pgg]

There's FIRE, but there's also fatFIRE, and moFIRE (morbidly obese FIRE).

If you don't live in a high cost area, don't have an array of expensive hobbies involving boats, airplanes, or exes sucking alimony, it doesn't take a lot of cash to be happy and live well.

Retiring early to a minimal existence, or one that's dependent upon a different and less secure job (like blogging), isn't my idea of winning. FatFIRE (which he defines as $100K/yr of income with no major expenses) is something I could probably do. And moFIRE ($200K/yr) sounds pretty great. $2.5M and $5M in assets are the respective milestones there at 4% SWR, which honestly is a reach for even a physician to hit early enough to be "FIRE". Maybe I need a blog.

 

[Mikkel]

I thought we all chose our professions because we enjoy what we do and we're satisfied in the practice. I plan on working as an anesthesiologist until my seventies, not because I have to but because I want to.

Maybe this will change if the regulations become too burdensome.

 

[pgg]

I thought we all chose our professions because we enjoy what we do and we're satisfied in the practice. I plan on working as an anesthesiologist until my seventies, not because I have to but because I want to.

Maybe this will change if the regulations become too burdensome.

I've known people who were working in their 70s, apparently happily. It's not for me. Even a no-call position at that age would be painful. I plan on going part-time and/or no-call before quitting for good, well before I hit 70. Anesthesia is fun, but it's not that fun.

 

[Sublimazing]

He does, in his post mentions, live in a 90k house.

Maybe I haven’t been to rural or super low COL area, but I know for sure my SO would never ever live in that house. I personally, cannot imagine a 90k house without at least some work that has to be done.

That was when i stopped reading. As a resident the house i live in now is small, one story, no yard, and in Shreveport, and it cost double that.

 

[BLADEMDA]

One thing I noticed being Fi already was the health insurance cost on his web site. The single greatest expense per him was the health insurance cost which required some type of income to offset. Those Silver or Bronze policies were expensive in the $16,000-$20,000 annual range with high deductibles. Many bloggers suggested they needed $300K in reserves to pay for health insurance and expenses until Medicare kicked in at age 65. His blogger income and real estate income will allow him to offset the cost of a solo health insurance policy (deductible).

This is one of the main reasons I will likely continue working part-time into my 60's.

 

[DM27]

He also has 100k/year in blog income...Not something most of us have to help cushion our loss in clinical income.

Not trying to be a hater, just telling it like it is.

This is what makes it very hard to relate to a lot of the more successful physician financial posters like WCI, they already have established a non clinical practice side hustle that produces enough income to fund their retirement income in its own. This couldn’t be more different from my situation.

 

[BLADEMDA]

The True Cost of Healthcare in Early Retirement: A Guide to Open Enrollment - Physician on FIRE

An early retiree shares the true cost of healthcare in early retirement as he experienced in 2019. He shares his 2020 projected expenses with an ACA plan.

www.physicianonfire.com

If you read this section take a few extra minutes and also read the comments by others.

 

[PieOHmy]

The things you own, end up owning you.

 

[Southpaw]

If I were an internist, family practice, or really any office-based specialty I could see myself working well into my 60s or early 70s. Especially if I owned my own office and dictated my hours and patient load.

Its hard to describe to other physicians and family members the drag of this job. So much of it bugs me more and more each year. Hospital administrators (especially the mid-level nursing admins) and the control they hold over us, protocol-based medicine which turns patient-specific art into a one-sized fits all mess, and definitely all the nights and weekend nonsense that we deal with.

if there are anesthesiologists willing to work into their 70s - god bless em. For me, I’m not willing to do dietFIRE, FIRElite, or whatever it’s called. I’m willing to work at my current pace (I take call....) until all debt is paid off including mortgage, and I have enough savings to put the kids through college and live on roughly 100-120k per year. Then I will look for something different. I’d even consider retraining for something more intellectually stimulating.

The problem with no call/no weekends is that it typically means a surgery center type case variety which to me would be complete boredom. If I could find cool cases and intellectual stimulation from 7-2, and do my own cases most of the time, that’d be amazing. But our field, and most practices, don’t offer that.

 

[vector2]

If I were an internist, family practice, or really any office-based specialty I could see myself working well into my 60s or early 70s. Especially if I owned my own office and dictated my hours and patient load.

Its hard to describe to other physicians and family members the drag of this job. So much of it bugs me more and more each year. Hospital administrators (especially the mid-level nursing admins) and the control they hold over us, protocol-based medicine which turns patient-specific art into a one-sized fits all mess, and definitely all the nights and weekend nonsense that we deal with.

if there are anesthesiologists willing to work into their 70s - god bless em. For me, I’m not willing to do dietFIRE, FIRElite, or whatever it’s called. I’m willing to work at my current pace (I take call....) until all debt is paid off including mortgage, and I have enough savings to put the kids through college and live on roughly 100-120k per year. Then I will look for something different. I’d even consider retraining for something more intellectually stimulating.

The problem with no call/no weekends is that it typically means a surgery center type case variety which to me would be complete boredom. If I could find cool cases and intellectual stimulation from 7-2, and do my own cases most of the time, that’d be amazing. But our field, and most practices, don’t offer that.

I can't speak for other areas, but in my neck of the woods there are academic, pseudoacademic, and PP jobs in tertiary centers that are no-call and/or mommy track. You may have a late day (out at 7p) every now and then but you won't be holding the pager or be in house overnight at all, or have to work weekends.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I thought we all chose our professions because we enjoy what we do and we're satisfied in the practice. I plan on working as an anesthesiologist until my seventies, not because I have to but because I want to.

Maybe this will change if the regulations become too burdensome.

I'm going to be honest, amongst my attendings in trainings and my current colleagues who were/are in their mid-late 60s, none of them were exactly amazing clinicians. Super smart and experienced? Sure. But they were also generally not great technically, were not up to date with latest studies or technology, and were just slower. Caveat obviously being these are academic places so it probably self-selects for slower and you probably lose technical skills working with residents for 30+ years. No excuses for the other 2. Maybe too much specialization?

Maybe it's different in PP, I dunno. I just don't think anesthesia is an old person's field like psychiatry or IM or FM might be.

 

[okayplayer]

If I were an internist, family practice, or really any office-based specialty I could see myself working well into my 60s or early 70s. Especially if I owned my own office and dictated my hours and patient load.

Its hard to describe to other physicians and family members the drag of this job. So much of it bugs me more and more each year. Hospital administrators (especially the mid-level nursing admins) and the control they hold over us, protocol-based medicine which turns patient-specific art into a one-sized fits all mess, and definitely all the nights and weekend nonsense that we deal with.

Pretty outstanding summary. I am almost 6 years in. My wife (PCP) and I will retire when the last kid leaves the house (that's the plan any way). Age 52 for me. Whatever $Xmm it is at that time, we will make do with. Might work a bit doing vacation coverage for my group as a transition out (if that's still an option at that time). If I project out our current savings rate over 16 more years, I think it will be sufficient.

 

[periopdoc]

I plan on dying on my stool, either in the OR or on the $hitter, in the Bahamas, while on vacation. LOL.

But in all seriousness, I don't ever see myself retiring. They will have to pry the laryngoscope from my cold, dead hand! I will eventually leave cardiac to the young, hungry guys. The fellowship will never have paid itself off in income, but was more than worth it in terms of opening doors, and career fulfillment.

Sorry for injecting some optimism into the board recently. I just have a very different outlook than some of the morose killjoys that overpopulate this forum. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

Hi there!

What I've done really isn't anything to celebrate or decry. It's just what felt like the right decision for my family and me. I started writing about these topics to show others how it can be done. If retiring from medicine isn't of interest to you, I commend you. But I do think financial independence is a worthwhile goal that everyone should strive for. It simply gives you options.

It's been four months now since I worked my last call shift and I haven't missed working. Haven't' been bored, either. We've spent time in a few colonial cities in Mexico for the last 9 weeks and head home for the holidays tomorrow. It's been a great trip, and I'm excited to return someday.

I'd like to clarify a few misconceptions, although some of the comments are spot-on.

I don't consider myself fully retired as I do have the website, and that can keep me as busy as I want to be. It does earn income, but we don't rely on it. I was FI before I started which is why I pledged to donate half of the profits. I've given a bit more than that, and we've donated a six-figure sum time in 2019 as a result of that pledge.

As far as the budget, I think $80k will be pretty close to what we spend in a year -- if we spend more time in higher-cost of living areas of the world, it might inch closer to $100,000. Ignoring online income, our nest egg would support about double what we spend without breaking the 4% rule. 2019 has been a very good year for us and anyone with a stock-heavy investment portfolio.

We did move into that little $90,000 house. It's a place for our stuff and a home base up north close to family when we're in the states. It's about 80 miles from the cabin we bought in northern Michigan just before the hospital where I was working went belly-up. We paid $15k for that cabin at auction and put another $50k into it. I love that place, but it's no mansion. Eventually, we'll probably settle into one larger place on a lake up north but with the travel plans we have (our kids at 9 & 11 are at great ages to roam), this setup with two small places works well.

On tap in 2020 is two months in Spain this winter, a visit to Las Vegas for the WCI conference, and back to Michigan for much of the spring and summer. Our kids will go to Space Camp in Florida in July. We'll be off to the west coast for a month early in the fall before boarding a 30-day cruise west to Shanghai. We'll be bumming around SE Asia for nearly 5 months before boarding a ship from Tokyo bound for Vancouver in the spring of 2021. I say we're taking things a year at a time, but we're nearly 18 months out now, I guess!

So that's what we're up to and it works for us. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you reach your financial goals and live the life you want to live.

Cheers!
Leif / PoF

 

[BLADEMDA]

Hi there!

What I've done really isn't anything to celebrate or decry. It's just what felt like the right decision for my family and me. I started writing about these topics to show others how it can be done. If retiring from medicine isn't of interest to you, I commend you. But I do think financial independence is a worthwhile goal that everyone should strive for. It simply gives you options.

It's been four months now since I worked my last call shift and I haven't missed working. Haven't' been bored, either. We've spent time in a few colonial cities in Mexico for the last 9 weeks and head home for the holidays tomorrow. It's been a great trip, and I'm excited to return someday.

I'd like to clarify a few misconceptions, although some of the comments are spot-on.

I don't consider myself fully retired as I do have the website, and that can keep me as busy as I want to be. It does earn income, but we don't rely on it. I was FI before I started which is why I pledged to donate half of the profits. I've given a bit more than that, and we've donated a six-figure sum time in 2019 as a result of that pledge.

As far as the budget, I think $80k will be pretty close to what we spend in a year -- if we spend more time in higher-cost of living areas of the world, it might inch closer to $100,000. Ignoring online income, our nest egg would support about double what we spend without breaking the 4% rule. 2019 has been a very good year for us and anyone with a stock-heavy investment portfolio.

We did move into that little $90,000 house. It's a place for our stuff and a home base up north close to family when we're in the states. It's about 80 miles from the cabin we bought in northern Michigan just before the hospital where I was working went belly-up. We paid $15k for that cabin at auction and put another $50k into it. I love that place, but it's no mansion. Eventually, we'll probably settle into one larger place on a lake up north but with the travel plans we have (our kids at 9 & 11 are at great ages to roam), this setup with two small places works well.

On tap in 2020 is two months in Spain this winter, a visit to Las Vegas for the WCI conference, and back to Michigan for much of the spring and summer. Our kids will go to Space Camp in Florida in July. We'll be off to the west coast for a month early in the fall before boarding a 30-day cruise west to Shanghai. We'll be bumming around SE Asia for nearly 5 months before boarding a ship from Tokyo bound for Vancouver in the spring of 2021. I say we're taking things a year at a time, but we're nearly 18 months out now, I guess!

So that's what we're up to and it works for us. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you reach your financial goals and live the life you want to live.

Cheers!
Leif / PoF

Do you have any real estate investments which throw off cash each month? Second, what did you do about health insurance? Do you have an ACA certified plan or a non certified plan? Did you consider a Medi-Share type plan?

You mentioned briefly that there was a possibility of locums or part-time work so you were keeping your medical license. How many ACTIVE licenses are you holding? What about MOCA? are you maintaining your certification?

If the market "corrects" 30% in 2021 or 2022 does that affect your lifestyle or plans? Will you do locums if the correction lasts for 2-3 years?

Thank You and best of luck ( you look awfully young to be retired).

 

[doctalaughs]

Hi there!

What I've done really isn't anything to celebrate or decry. It's just what felt like the right decision for my family and me. I started writing about these topics to show others how it can be done. If retiring from medicine isn't of interest to you, I commend you. But I do think financial independence is a worthwhile goal that everyone should strive for. It simply gives you options.

It's been four months now since I worked my last call shift and I haven't missed working. Haven't' been bored, either. We've spent time in a few colonial cities in Mexico for the last 9 weeks and head home for the holidays tomorrow. It's been a great trip, and I'm excited to return someday.

I'd like to clarify a few misconceptions, although some of the comments are spot-on.

I don't consider myself fully retired as I do have the website, and that can keep me as busy as I want to be. It does earn income, but we don't rely on it. I was FI before I started which is why I pledged to donate half of the profits. I've given a bit more than that, and we've donated a six-figure sum time in 2019 as a result of that pledge.

As far as the budget, I think $80k will be pretty close to what we spend in a year -- if we spend more time in higher-cost of living areas of the world, it might inch closer to $100,000. Ignoring online income, our nest egg would support about double what we spend without breaking the 4% rule. 2019 has been a very good year for us and anyone with a stock-heavy investment portfolio.

We did move into that little $90,000 house. It's a place for our stuff and a home base up north close to family when we're in the states. It's about 80 miles from the cabin we bought in northern Michigan just before the hospital where I was working went belly-up. We paid $15k for that cabin at auction and put another $50k into it. I love that place, but it's no mansion. Eventually, we'll probably settle into one larger place on a lake up north but with the travel plans we have (our kids at 9 & 11 are at great ages to roam), this setup with two small places works well.

On tap in 2020 is two months in Spain this winter, a visit to Las Vegas for the WCI conference, and back to Michigan for much of the spring and summer. Our kids will go to Space Camp in Florida in July. We'll be off to the west coast for a month early in the fall before boarding a 30-day cruise west to Shanghai. We'll be bumming around SE Asia for nearly 5 months before boarding a ship from Tokyo bound for Vancouver in the spring of 2021. I say we're taking things a year at a time, but we're nearly 18 months out now, I guess!

So that's what we're up to and it works for us. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you reach your financial goals and live the life you want to live.

Cheers!
Leif / PoF

That’s amazing - good for you.

I don’t know how you do all that travel and keep your budget under 100k!

I personally would be nervous until my 4% could support 350k/yr which means I have a bit more to go. Maybe I’m spoiled in lifestyle although I don’t buy fancy cars, only own 1 house and no divorce, medical expenses etc (do like travel though and probably spend 25-40k a year now on that depending on the year which I would only assume goes way up if I had no job).

Can you elaborate on what you have saved/calculated to consider your kids college “fully funded?” That’s the big X factor for me in terms of calculating my safe full financial independence the way I want to live. So hard with how tuition is going up like crazy, whether they pursue grad school, public vs private etc. Could easily swing a million or more either way!

Again thank you and great job in securing what you and your family wanted!

 

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

Home - Physician on FIRE

We help physicians reach Financial Independence and Retire Early. The only question is, will you be next?

www.physicianonfire.com

Do you have any real estate investments which throw off cash each month? Second, what did you do about health insurance? Do you have an ACA certified plan or a non certified plan? Did you consider a Medi-Share type plan?

You mentioned briefly that there was a possibility of locums or part-time work so you were keeping your medical license. How many ACTIVE licenses are you holding? What about MOCA? are you maintaining your certification?

If the market "corrects" 30% in 2021 or 2022 does that affect your lifestyle or plans? Will you do locums if the correction lasts for 2-3 years?

Thank You and best of luck ( you look awfully young to be retired).

Good questions! I've invested a low six-figure amount into a variety of crowdfunded real estate deals. It's a small portion of the portfolio. I have a drawdown plan that doesn't depend on cashflow necessarily, but I haven't had to enact it yet.

For healthcare, we purchased bronze HSA plan from the exchange. Considered health sharing, but there are too many limitations. More on that through process here.

I have one active license and I haven't done any MOCA yet this year, but I'll probably do 30 questions a day for 4 days yet in December to keep my ABA profile showing "participating in MOCA." Thanks for the reminder!

A significant market downturn wouldn't affect my future plans. The 4% rule is basically based on retiring at the worst time possible, and we're spending 2% at most. We're also diversified a bit with some bonds and real estate so a 30% drop in the stock market might drop our portfolio 20% to 25% at the most. A prolonged downturn might have us more likely to spend time in Mexico again than an expensive place like New Zealand or Iceland, but it's nothing we shouldn't be able to weather.

Cheers!

 

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

That’s amazing - good for you.

I don’t know how you do all that travel and keep your budget under 100k!

I personally would be nervous until my 4% could support 350k/yr which means I have a bit more to go. Maybe I’m spoiled in lifestyle although I don’t buy fancy cars, only own 1 house and no divorce, medical expenses etc (do like travel though and probably spend 25-40k a year now on that depending on the year which I would only assume goes way up if I had no job).

Can you elaborate on what you have saved/calculated to consider your kids college “fully funded?” That’s the big X factor for me in terms of calculating my safe full financial independence the way I want to live. So hard with how tuition is going up like crazy, whether they pursue grad school, public vs private etc. Could easily swing a million or more either way!

Again thank you and great job in securing what you and your family wanted!

Your goal is therefore 25*$350,000 = $8.75 Million!

If you've tracked spending and that's what you need, then that's the number. But with a paid off house and no other debts, you can live awfully well on half or maybe even a quarter of that.

Regarding the 529s, we've funded 2 plans to the low six-figures, and they've got 7 to 9 years to grow. That should be more than enough for a 4-year public education and I fully expect our boys to have some college credits out under their belts well before we have to start paying. So many options for early and dual enrollment and more.

Also, keep in mind you want to pay for the first $4,000 of expenses in cash (not from 529s) for four years for each child to earn a $2,500 American Opportunity tax credit. This does phase out for higher incomes (one more reason to retire before your kids are in college).

Cheers!
-PoF

 

[chocomorsel]

That’s amazing - good for you.

I don’t know how you do all that travel and keep your budget under 100k!

I personally would be nervous until my 4% could support 350k/yr which means I have a bit more to go. Maybe I’m spoiled in lifestyle although I don’t buy fancy cars, only own 1 house and no divorce, medical expenses etc (do like travel though and probably spend 25-40k a year now on that depending on the year which I would only assume goes way up if I had no job).

Can you elaborate on what you have saved/calculated to consider your kids college “fully funded?” That’s the big X factor for me in terms of calculating my safe full financial independence the way I want to live. So hard with how tuition is going up like crazy, whether they pursue grad school, public vs private etc. Could easily swing a million or more either way!

Again thank you and great job in securing what you and your family wanted!

Seriously? You would pay a million dollars for your children’s college? How many do you have? More than four?
And less 350k a year makes you nervous? Wow!!! We must be living in totally different worlds. At that rate, you will work and die at work.

 

[aneftp]

The key with Obamacare is to keep ur adjusted income BELOW 400% of poverty. Aka a family of 4 means less than 100k. So if u have adjusted gross income less than 400% u will get subsidies. And I’m sure he deducted even more to keep his income below 250% of poverty which means huge savings.

My neighbor is retired stock broker. Age 59 now. Been retired for 5 years. He claims him and his wife have 60k income. Below the 400% mark. It’s a running joke. He lives off Sabine’s. He just got back From Greece vacation. Says BecUse of the 10-13k plus subsidized Obamacare. He got what essentially was a free vacation to Greece this year. Him and his wife used to pay in excess of $3000 a month (both have pre existing conditions) with a whopping 30k deductible as self employed in 2013. Obamacare changed it all in 2014. He did his math.
The math is to keep ur income low as self employed and live off your savings.

obamacare doesn’t count against some one who has 15 million plus saved mainly in tax de

 

[BLADEMDA]

I highly recommend one retire after sending their kids to college and grad school. But, that is just my opinion as I am old school. Retirement occurs after all your obligations to immediate family members have been met. For me, that is just around the corner even though I have been Fi for a few years now.

But, this is all highly subjective with the vast majority of early FIRE occurring in their mid to late 50s. Average FIRE is around 62-65 IMHO.

Again, as an old school type of guy anyone retiring before age 60 is indeed FIRE in my book.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Seriously? You would pay a million dollars for your children’s college? How many do you have? More than four?
And less 350k a year makes you nervous? Wow!!! We must be living in totally different worlds. At that rate, you will work and die at work.

Death at work really isn't that bad as long as long as there has been time for travel, personal leisure and other interests. For example, job sharing (1/2 position) would allow plenty of time for everything on your to do list/bucket list while still earning a decent income. If 1/2 job share is too much then how about a 1/3 or 1/4 position? Again, that income combined with some savings is enough to semi-retire for most Anesthesiologists. So, "dying" at work may mean passing away at your job but only while working a part-time position.

 

[Consigliere]

Seriously? You would pay a million dollars for your children’s college? How many do you have? More than four?
And less 350k a year makes you nervous? Wow!!! We must be living in totally different worlds. At that rate, you will work and die at work.

Well, I work and I'm dead at work but for different reasons.

 

[doctalaughs]

Seriously? You would pay a million dollars for your children’s college? How many do you have? More than four?
And less 350k a year makes you nervous? Wow!!! We must be living in totally different worlds. At that rate, you will work and die at work.

Maybe I’m just paranoid. My kids are 7 and 12 (only two) but I don’t want them saddled with debt if they wish to pursue something like medical or law school. And private colleges are like 80k/yr now... projected to be easily 120k/yr by the time my kids go through... that could easily be 1.5 mill required if they both pursue graduate degrees, even if not both in law/medicine.

I’m currently 46 but think I can hit my target by 55 (not counting house equity which is 2 yrs from being all paid off and 529 funds which is currently 550k) even with the inevitable downturn in the market. Maybe 58 if a big correction happens. Not TOO old — although 40-41 like the physician on fire would sure be nice. Not sure that leeway/# is possible for any (physician) unless they inherit.

 

[doctalaughs]

Regarding the 350k/yr target number... I guess I didn’t run the numbers in detail but that’s about what I live on now after taxes and savings.... maybe 300k now that I think about it since I underestimated savings that would no longer be required. I figure the last couple years of mortgage I have left in that “living” number would be offset by increased healthcare and travel spendings since I’d be older with more time?

 

[okayplayer]

I’m not worried about overfunding 529s at all. Excess 529 money for my own kids becomes a phenomenal vehicle for taking care of future grandchildren’s college some day.

 

[pjl]

I’m not worried about overfunding 529s at all. Excess 529 money for my own kids becomes a phenomenal vehicle for taking care of future grandchildren’s college some day.

Or an educational cruise in the Mediterranean Sea.

 

[deleted126335]

Or an educational cruise in the Mediterranean Sea.

I suspect that is not Kosher.

 

[pjl]

I suspect that is not Kosher.

True, but who knows what will change over the next 30 years.
You can use it for something as simple as cooking classes, and there are certain parts of a semester abroad they currently cover.

 

[Mman]

one thing that requires a bit of guesstimation math for me in my calculations is trying to determine the actual tax rate I will be paying in early retirement living off taxable accounts. It gets a little complicated because you need to determine what % of an annual withdrawal is going to be subject to tax (something like 1/2 to 2/3 is probably just the principal you put in and not subject to tax) and the rest will be taxed but possibly probably at capital gains rate which should be lower.

The math of figuring out how much you spend per year isn't that complicated (I update a spreadsheet monthly) but that's your after tax spending. Then you gotta back out how much withdrawal pretax that will require based on what effective tax rate you are going to be paying. Realistically my wife and I currently spend around $8-10K per month excluding mortgage, but I will probably target about $15K per month after taxes to leave some buffer and I always use 3% withdrawal rate for long term sustainability. 4% was based on 30 year retirement horizons and the earlier you potentially go way beyond that.

I hope to hit it by early 50s and then either just work 1/4 to 1/2 time or totally retire.

 

[anbuitachi]

If you really read his blog and his story, he has not experienced "forced minimalism." He simply already lived that way. He has documented for years that his family's spending is ~60-80K per year and they want for nothing.

People complained about "leanFIRE" but he has made it abundantly clear in his blog and in podcasts that once he realized he was already financing independent (net worth > 25x his yearly spending), he continued to work for several years so he could have a lot more than the 25x. I think he's said he's more like 33x. He then went part time to see if less work would make him like it more. He just found that he hated it even more and decided to quit entirely.

If you read his blog and sign up for his emails, he goes into quite a bit detail about the actual numbers behind his success as an anesthesiologist and as a blogger. Additionally, half of all the money that comes in from the blog goes to charity.

Reading his blog made me very excited to pursue FI, but reading about the RE part just made me anxious to be done working one day and I haven't even finished residency! I had to stop reading about the early retirement stuff.

That was when i stopped reading. As a resident the house i live in now is small, one story, no yard, and in Shreveport, and it cost double that.

Being able to pursue FIRE needs certain 'requirements' to be met. I mainly read these types of posts for fun when im bored at work. But it's never going to happen to me, and I'm not aiming for FIRE either... Im in a high cost of living area where a 600 sq ft studio near work costs 1M. Salary is low, and hours worked is high, and so are taxes. For me to even consider FIRE, i'd have to move out to much lower cost of living area!

My goal is to go part time after 60s, to maybe 2 day a week, which if same as today, should generate close to 80k in income

 

[HalO'Thane]

I’m still not 100% sure how to accurately calculate my income needs in retirement. I do know that some of my current largest after tax expenses include the following:

1. Mortgage
2. Private School Tuition
3. 529
4. IRA for my wife and I
5. Supplemental Life and Disability Insurance

Those expenses should all hopefully drop off in 15-20 years when I am in my late 50s. I definitely want to downsize my house so property taxes should be less and there will be less wear and tear on my car. Even after accounting for higher health insurance costs and more travel expenses, I feel like I can easily live off even 40% of my current income.

Obviously a lot can change in that time so I guess I will worry about crossing that bridge when it comes