retirement for sole proprioters, llc, indepent contractors?

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finalpsychyear

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Hey guys. Im trying to figure out what exactly I can contribute towards retirement if i have:
1. Private practice
2. Another Independent contractor Job 1099


I know about the sep ira, 401k, and traditional and roth iras. Is the total contribution limit for all of these combined 53k if your under 50? Since many are in real practice i figured they may share their 2 cents.

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Be a baller: defined contribution plan. Up to $220K. Like off the remainder of what you earn. Retire in no time.

But it's like owing money to the mafia, once you're in, there's no going back.

Or set up a multitiered corporate structure, which pays each other. Takes about $10-20k to set up.
 
Hey guys. Im trying to figure out what exactly I can contribute towards retirement if i have:
1. Private practice
2. Another Independent contractor Job 1099


I know about the sep ira, 401k, and traditional and roth iras. Is the total contribution limit for all of these combined 53k if your under 50? Since many are in real practice i figured they may share their 2 cents.


Yes, it is but I think it is dependent on how much of your income is from private practice I.e. the majority of your income has to be from private practice.
 
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If you're 1099, open up a solo 401k and contribute the max (I think it's 53k this year and 54k in 2018) as employer contribution (I think it's 20% of net income though, not gross). If you also are a W-2 employee, you can contribute the 18k to a 401k as employee contribution. That right there is 71k. If you want to contribute more, then contribute in a taxable account. The other good option mentioned above is defined benefit plan, but that only makes sense if you'll have consistent income above 350k. Read about this on White Coat Investor.
 
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If you're 1099, open up a solo 401k and contribute the max (I think it's 53k this year and 54k in 2018) as employer contribution (I think it's 20% of net income though, not gross). If you also are a W-2 employee, you can contribute the 18k to a 401k as employee contribution. That right there is 71k. If you want to contribute more, then contribute in a taxable account. The other good option mentioned above is defined benefit plan, but that only makes sense if you'll have consistent income above 350k. Read about this on White Coat Investor.

I have a PP 1 day of the week and do 30 hrs as independent contractor so i get a 1099 for that of course. any reason you suggest a 401k instead of a sep as i have no employees right now. Also, can you exceed the 53k limit if you have both the 401 and sep or is the 53k a combined limit? thanks for your help.
 
I have a PP 1 day of the week and do 30 hrs as independent contractor so i get a 1099 for that of course. any reason you suggest a 401k instead of a sep as i have no employees right now. Also, can you exceed the 53k limit if you have both the 401 and sep or is the 53k a combined limit? thanks for your help.

53k is combined limit for all employer 401k contributions, if you make enough. solo 401k better than sep ira because you can do backdoor roth, and i think the max for sep ira is lower than solo 401k
 
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I have a PP 1 day of the week and do 30 hrs as independent contractor so i get a 1099 for that of course. any reason you suggest a 401k instead of a sep as i have no employees right now. Also, can you exceed the 53k limit if you have both the 401 and sep or is the 53k a combined limit? thanks for your help.

You can use your corporation to set up a traditional pension type fund that people used to get back "in the old days" by using a 401k - I think you are able to contribute up to 100k/yr. The rule is that whatever you decide to set into that pension fund, you can't increase or decrease and have to contribute to it no matter what for at least 5 years or else the IRS will get mad.
 
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@Shikima

That is a defined benefit plan. You can contribute 210K, but there are ways to contribute much more. It will not work if you have employees.
 
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@Shikima

That is a defined benefit plan. You can contribute 210K, but there are ways to contribute much more. It will not work if you have employees.

so for example if you set that up you could easily deduct 100k from your pretax gross towards retirement? What is the catch with that maybe that you have to keep doing that 100k for a set amount of years?
 
so for example if you set that up you could easily deduct 100k from your pretax gross towards retirement? What is the catch with that maybe that you have to keep doing that 100k for a set amount of years?

You have to do it for a set number of years. It's tax deferred, so you could deduct 200k, but at 59 you're gonna be paying. There are extensive accounting requirements that needs to be done by a professional. If you have employees, you have to offer something similar. Screw any of these up and you are in big trouble.
 
You have to do it for a set number of years. It's tax deferred, so you could deduct 200k, but at 59 you're gonna be paying. There are extensive accounting requirements that needs to be done by a professional. If you have employees, you have to offer something similar. Screw any of these up and you are in big trouble.

ok im looking more in this for the future. Say one day I am able to contribute 100-200k a year for the 5-10 year requirement. What happens then? Can I expect 100-150k a year indefinitely if my retirement is 35 years away roughly?
 
ok im looking more in this for the future. Say one day I am able to contribute 100-200k a year for the 5-10 year requirement. What happens then? Can I expect 100-150k a year indefinitely if my retirement is 35 years away roughly?

You mean like a defined contribution plan? $2 mil for 35 years at historic models of the NYSE would yield you about $21-38mil, the SWR of which would be over $1mil/year.
 
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You mean like a defined contribution plan? $2 mil for 35 years at historic models of the NYSE would yield you about $21-38mil, the SWR of which would be over $1mil/year.

holy molly. Im not even going to wonder why more people aren't doing this. I still live like a resident and I guess I can do this lifestyle for another 5 years. Looks like I'll be looking for more work after all.

Is there a rough calculator I can use to make this calculation?What about something more conservative like 500k-1mil vested in this over 30 years as it wud likely take me AT LEAST 5 years with an added wknd job solely for this working weekends to accrue that along with all the other expenses I have. Not sure what SWR is but im guessing its some kind of expected yearly payout at retirement. If i can even get 250-500k per year once i retire almost guaranteed starting in 30 years just by working like a dog for 5 years I'm all in for this. Almost sounds too good to be true.
 
holy molly. Im not even going to wonder why more people aren't doing this. I still live like a resident and I guess I can do this lifestyle for another 5 years. Looks like I'll be looking for more work after all.

Is there a rough calculator I can use to make this calculation?What about something more conservative like 500k-1mil vested in this over 30 years as it wud likely take me AT LEAST 5 years with an added wknd job solely for this working weekends to accrue that along with all the other expenses I have. Not sure what SWR is but im guessing its some kind of expected yearly payout at retirement. If i can even get 250-500k per year once i retire almost guaranteed starting in 30 years just by working like a dog for 5 years I'm all in for this. Almost sounds too good to be true.

google: Firecalc But you can figure it out yourself.

If you really want to be a baller, look at the numbers for if you contribute the maximum for your kids until adulthood. Hint: the numbers hit billions.
 
holy molly. Im not even going to wonder why more people aren't doing this. I still live like a resident and I guess I can do this lifestyle for another 5 years. Looks like I'll be looking for more work after all.

Is there a rough calculator I can use to make this calculation?What about something more conservative like 500k-1mil vested in this over 30 years as it wud likely take me AT LEAST 5 years with an added wknd job solely for this working weekends to accrue that along with all the other expenses I have. Not sure what SWR is but im guessing its some kind of expected yearly payout at retirement. If i can even get 250-500k per year once i retire almost guaranteed starting in 30 years just by working like a dog for 5 years I'm all in for this. Almost sounds too good to be true.

On average it's true. Though it's hard to generate 2MM by 35 (say) with doctor's salary and student loans. Assuming a post-inflation average return of 7%, if you have 1MM at 35 it's only 10MM, but if 2MM at 35, it's 20MM.


Also keep in mind about "working like a dog" for 5 years, basically you are timing the market. There are debates in the investing circles about the true advantage of dollar cost averaging, but from a psychological perspective, dramatic shifts in working/leisure are often damaging to your mental health, especially if you timed the market WRONG.

Secondly, I can't imagine what I would need 20MM for at 65 or 70. Expensive fun things (like a boat or a plane) should be rented and not owned. Old retired people don't need a lot of space. OTOH, in your 30s often you need post-tax dollars to say buy a house or pay for childcare. So if you are generating 750k+ a year post tax, and all of a sudden you need to consume more than the top tax bracket, your marginal tax rate goes way up. It's difficult to plan for things like this easily if your plan is dramatic ups and downs in your income. Especially bad if you have dramatic drop of taxable income, since for a year at least your estimated taxes are way higher.

Another thing that people often don't think about: there's a non-trivial chance of death before 65. On average the chance is about 15% by actuarial tables. Physicians and other high SES individuals prolly have a lower chance, but I'd say it's still significant, likely in the high single digits. There are young attendings who have incurable cancer. It's not as rare as you think. So when you do your cost/benefit analysis you might want to do it with risk adjusted. In fact, as we all know, in the pre-45 group, the biggest reasons of early mortality relate to poor mental health (i.e. suicide, car accidents, substance abuse, etc), and even in the post-55 group, things like poor med adherence, poor diet and exercise and smoking continue to contribute to early mortality. Your 360 degree health is a large portion of your effective total asset, and neglecting that to pursue total revenue generated is not financially sound. I think of this also in terms of asset investment/depreciation. Human capital is a nonlinearly depreciating asset that typically reaches the highest rate of return in your late 40s or even 50s. If you burn yourself out in your late 30s, it's like drinking a design vintage before its optimal maturity date.

That said, in my mind, considering student loans and what not, a typical psychiatrist in a typical part of the country should be financially independent in his/her mid 50s with reasonably good financial planning and without having to "work like a dog" or do "multi-level corporate ownership". Indeed, this is what you see. As I mentioned in a thread a long time ago, senior attendings are in general fairly well off--not like private jet well off, but business class a few times a year shouldn't be an issue.
 
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On average it's true. Though it's hard to generate 2MM by 35 (say) with doctor's salary and student loans. Assuming a post-inflation average return of 7%, if you have 1MM at 35 it's only 10MM, but if 2MM at 35, it's 20MM.


Also keep in mind about "working like a dog" for 5 years, basically you are timing the market. There are debates in the investing circles about the true advantage of dollar cost averaging, but from a psychological perspective, dramatic shifts in working/leisure are often damaging to your mental health, especially if you timed the market WRONG.

Secondly, I can't imagine what I would need 20MM for at 65 or 70. Expensive fun things (like a boat or a plane) should be rented and not owned. Old retired people don't need a lot of space. OTOH, in your 30s often you need post-tax dollars to say buy a house or pay for childcare. So if you are generating 750k+ a year post tax, and all of a sudden you need to consume more than the top tax bracket, your marginal tax rate goes way up. It's difficult to plan for things like this easily if your plan is dramatic ups and downs in your income. Especially bad if you have dramatic drop of taxable income, since for a year at least your estimated taxes are way higher.

Another thing that people often don't think about: there's a non-trivial chance of death before 65. On average the chance is about 15% by actuarial tables. Physicians and other high SES individuals prolly have a lower chance, but I'd say it's still significant, likely in the high single digits. There are young attendings who have incurable cancer. It's not as rare as you think. So when you do your cost/benefit analysis you might want to do it with risk adjusted. In fact, as we all know, in the pre-45 group, the biggest reasons of early mortality relate to poor mental health (i.e. suicide, car accidents, substance abuse, etc), and even in the post-55 group, things like poor med adherence, poor diet and exercise and smoking continue to contribute to early mortality. Your 360 degree health is a large portion of your effective total asset, and neglecting that to pursue total revenue generated is not financially sound. I think of this also in terms of asset investment/depreciation. Human capital is a nonlinearly depreciating asset that typically reaches the highest rate of return in your late 40s or even 50s. If you burn yourself out in your late 30s, it's like drinking a design vintage before its optimal maturity date.

That said, in my mind, considering student loans and what not, a typical psychiatrist in a typical part of the country should be financially independent in his/her mid 50s with reasonably good financial planning and without having to "work like a dog" or do "multi-level corporate ownership". Indeed, this is what you see. As I mentioned in a thread a long time ago, senior attendings are in general fairly well off--not like private jet well off, but business class a few times a year shouldn't be an issue.


Hi. The only thing I'll point out is with inflation 10 million today will really have the buying power of 5 million in 30 ish years from now.

Also, my working like a dog comment is an additional 8 hrs a week to try and fund this potential idea.
 
On average it's true. Though it's hard to generate 2MM by 35 (say) with doctor's salary and student loans. Assuming a post-inflation average return of 7%, if you have 1MM at 35 it's only 10MM, but if 2MM at 35, it's 20MM.


Also keep in mind about "working like a dog" for 5 years, basically you are timing the market. There are debates in the investing circles about the true advantage of dollar cost averaging, but from a psychological perspective, dramatic shifts in working/leisure are often damaging to your mental health, especially if you timed the market WRONG.

Secondly, I can't imagine what I would need 20MM for at 65 or 70. Expensive fun things (like a boat or a plane) should be rented and not owned. Old retired people don't need a lot of space. OTOH, in your 30s often you need post-tax dollars to say buy a house or pay for childcare. So if you are generating 750k+ a year post tax, and all of a sudden you need to consume more than the top tax bracket, your marginal tax rate goes way up. It's difficult to plan for things like this easily if your plan is dramatic ups and downs in your income. Especially bad if you have dramatic drop of taxable income, since for a year at least your estimated taxes are way higher.

Another thing that people often don't think about: there's a non-trivial chance of death before 65. On average the chance is about 15% by actuarial tables. Physicians and other high SES individuals prolly have a lower chance, but I'd say it's still significant, likely in the high single digits. There are young attendings who have incurable cancer. It's not as rare as you think. So when you do your cost/benefit analysis you might want to do it with risk adjusted. In fact, as we all know, in the pre-45 group, the biggest reasons of early mortality relate to poor mental health (i.e. suicide, car accidents, substance abuse, etc), and even in the post-55 group, things like poor med adherence, poor diet and exercise and smoking continue to contribute to early mortality. Your 360 degree health is a large portion of your effective total asset, and neglecting that to pursue total revenue generated is not financially sound. I think of this also in terms of asset investment/depreciation. Human capital is a nonlinearly depreciating asset that typically reaches the highest rate of return in your late 40s or even 50s. If you burn yourself out in your late 30s, it's like drinking a design vintage before its optimal maturity date.

That said, in my mind, considering student loans and what not, a typical psychiatrist in a typical part of the country should be financially independent in his/her mid 50s with reasonably good financial planning and without having to "work like a dog" or do "multi-level corporate ownership". Indeed, this is what you see. As I mentioned in a thread a long time ago, senior attendings are in general fairly well off--not like private jet well off, but business class a few times a year shouldn't be an issue.

1) I would really appreciate it if you address me directly.

2) my advice is unusual. Absolutely. Most psychiatrist will have little interest in anything I have to say. I’m not shooting for average. That being said:

A. Like some, I figured out the rich don’t get rich by paying half of their income to the IRS. There’s a ROI that varies between having enough capital to aggressive tax sheltering. Less than $100 mil? Offshore is gonna prompt an investigation. A multi tiered llc, which is based upon 1980s hospital corporate structure might make your tax rate around 20%. At 1MM a year that’s a thing. At 200k, or whatever you guys earn that’s like a 20-30k/yr savings. Over 30 years of work, that’s around 1-2MM. Maybe that’s nothing to some. Not to me.
 
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1) I would really appreciate it if you address me directly.

2) my advice is unusual. Absolutely. Most psychiatrist will have little interest in anything I have to say. I’m not shooting for average. That being said:

A. Like some, I figured out the rich don’t get rich by paying half of their income to the IRS. There’s a ROI that varies between having enough capital to aggressive tax sheltering. Less than $100 mil? Offshore is gonna prompt an investigation. A multi tiered llc, which is based upon 1980s hospital corporate structure might make your tax rate around 20%. At 1MM a year that’s a thing. At 200k, or whatever you guys earn that’s like a 20-30k/yr savings. Over 30 years of work, that’s around 1-2MM. Maybe that’s nothing to some. Not to me.

I did some more digging on the defined benefit plans and it turns out whether someone starts contributing when they are lets say 35-40 years old vs 50 years old the ultimate payout at retirement age lets say 62 for this purpose ends up being the exact same something like 210k or whatever it is adjusted at the time you start it. Also, the difference is if you start young your paying maybe 50-60k per year vs later in your 50s your paying 150-200k to still get THE SAME exact benefit.

What am i missing here? Im guessing the contribution lets say in the 10 year window of making payments towards the DB will be a lot less if you do it in the 33-43 age range vs 50-60 year range but is that basically it? What happens after the 10 years are up am i still responsible for funding it after that time if i were to start young?
 
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I did some more digging on the defined benefit plans and it turns out whether someone starts contributing when they are lets say 35-40 years old vs 50 years old the ultimate payout at retirement age lets say 62 for this purpose ends up being the exact same something like 210k or whatever it is adjusted at the time you start it. Also, the difference is if you start young your paying maybe 50-60k per year vs later in your 50s your paying 150-200k to still get THE SAME exact benefit.

What am i missing here? Im guessing the contribution lets say in the 10 year window of making payments towards the DB will be a lot less if you do it in the 33-43 age range vs 50-60 year range but is that basically it? What happens after the 10 years are up am i still responsible for funding it after that time if i were to start young?

That’s a defined benefit plan, not a defined contribution plan...
 
Be a baller: defined contribution plan. Up to $220K. Like off the remainder of what you earn. Retire in no time.

But it's like owing money to the mafia, once you're in, there's no going back.

Or set up a multitiered corporate structure, which pays each other. Takes about $10-20k to set up.

What defined contribution plan lets you deduct up to 220k pre tax ?
 
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