Retroactive USMLE P/F Reporting?

[Osminog]

Is there any news on whether students who take USMLE before 2022 but apply to residencies after 2022 will have their scores retroactively converted to P/F in the ERAS score report?

I feel like this is an extremely important issue, yet nobody seems to be talking about it. I don’t want to spend my post-M1 summer ripping through question banks and thousands of Zanki cards if a 270 and a 210 are both going to just be reported as “P”s.

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[wanderingorion]

Wouldn't doing PQs and flashcards help you during your 3rd year and on your scored STEP2 CK? I don't get why people try to just brush off STEP1 prep just because it's P/F. While not all of the information is clinically important, it will on all your shelves and during rounds all third year.

 

[throwaway1000000]

No one knows. Study hard if even it is going p/f. Most high scorers on s1 score well on s2 and some of it might have to do with good test-taking ability, but lot of it is developing a strong foundation of knowledge, work-ethic, and study habits.

 

[Osminog]

Thanks for the responses. For better or for worse, I’m not enough of a gunner to want to devote my last free summer to hardcore Step 1 prep just in the off-chance that it would benefit me for Step 2 prep and shelf exams during third year.

It sounds like there has been no official policy released at this point when it comes to retroactive P/F reporting, though, so what I said above is moot. Hopefully the folks at the NBME decide to show some basic courtesy and tell students what’s going to happen with their scores.

 

[DameJulie]

according to our student class meeting the current M1s will still get scored, and retroactive P/F is highly unlikely (AAMC don’t get paid extra to do more work by retroactive PF your score). They might postpone the implement time so that our whole nation wide class gets a score.

If you don’t mind sharing how to do Zanki to get 270 that would be great. Just curious on your workflow and how to strategically use it.

 

[wanderingorion]

Thanks for the responses. For better or for worse, I’m not enough of a gunner to want to devote my last free summer to hardcore Step 1 prep just in the off-chance that it would benefit me for Step 2 prep and shelf exams during third year.

It sounds like there has been no official policy released at this point when it comes to retroactive P/F reporting, though, so what I said above is moot. Hopefully the folks at the NBME decide to show some basic courtesy and tell students what’s going to happen with their scores.

Sometimes being a "gunner" is just learning the information well enough to be a good doctor.

 

[Chibucks15]

Sometimes being a "gunner" is just learning the information well enough to be a good doctor.

People kinda bastardized the term. There's a large difference between working hard and being a gunner. Gunners are the worst types of people, incessantly talking about grades and nonsense, actively working against if not sabotaging others, being all around obnoxious. Hard-workers who keep to themselves are completely different. In between are the CV padders with useless fluff, SJW, gunners who dont sabotage types. Don't be those types

And if you don't learn the information well enough to be a good doctor you aren't gonna make it. (Almost) Everyone who makes it through does pretty darn well as a practicing physician

 

[wanderingorion]

People kinda bastardized the term. There's a large difference between working hard and being a gunner. Gunners are the worst types of people, incessantly talking about grades and nonsense, actively working against if not sabotaging others, being all around obnoxious. Hard-workers who keep to themselves are completely different. In between are the CV padders with useless fluff, SJW, gunners who dont sabotage types. Don't be those types

And if you don't learn the information well enough to be a good doctor you aren't gonna make it. (Almost) Everyone who makes it through does pretty darn well as a practicing physician

Exactly, I just worry about P/F making people not study hard. Yes, it's a test, but has real world consequences. Hence my frustration with the thread

 

[Chibucks15]

Exactly, I just worry about P/F making people not study hard. Yes, it's a test, but has real world consequences. Hence my frustration with the thread

Completely understandable. While it may have that effect for some, I don't believe it will for the majority of people because of the type A personalities and insane work ethic required to get to this point. Its kinda a default to study hard for fear of passing. Worst case maybe up the passing score. Step 1 material has a large portion of it that is almost completely clinically useless, especially when you get to the nitty gritty that is required to score well on the beast. If there are less physicians learning the tiny intricacies of random biochemical cycles I think we'll be just fine. If people do study less, it will be those tiny concepts that will go by the wayside rather than important, large topics that actually make a good physician.

Also, there are so many physicians currently practicing in every specialty with mediocre to terrible board scores compared to the system of today. I've seen too many examples of incredible older physicians to think that it makes that much difference in the long term. SDN world is probably gonna come after me but well see

 

[slowthai]

Completely understandable. While it may have that effect for some, I don't believe it will for the majority of people because of the type A personalities and insane work ethic required to get to this point. Its kinda a default to study hard for fear of passing. Worst case maybe up the passing score. Step 1 material has a large portion of it that is almost completely clinically useless, especially when you get to the nitty gritty that is required to score well on the beast. If there are less physicians learning the tiny intricacies of random biochemical cycles I think we'll be just fine. If people do study less, it will be those tiny concepts that will go by the wayside rather than important, large topics that actually make a good physician.

Also, there are so many physicians currently practicing in every specialty with mediocre to terrible board scores compared to the system of today. I've seen too many examples of incredible older physicians to think that it makes that much difference in the long term. SDN world is probably gonna come after me but well see

I honestly don't think anyone would come after you, lol. The major driver for step mania has always been the match. No one can cogently argue that smashing step will make you a better, or even good doctor.

 

[Chibucks15]

I honestly don't think anyone would come after you, lol. The major driver for step mania has always been the match. No one can cogently argue that smashing step will make you a better, or even good doctor.

Oh you'd be surprised at the backlash I've gotten for saying just that haha this is SDN after all

 

[Mass Effect]

Wouldn't doing PQs and flashcards help you during your 3rd year and on your scored STEP2 CK? I don't get why people try to just brush off STEP1 prep just because it's P/F. While not all of the information is clinically important, it will on all your shelves and during rounds all third year.

I'm guessing there's going to be an abnormally high fail rate the first time this thing goes P/Fs. Seems everyone thinks they're studying to get a 270 when, realistically, many are studying to get average or pass.

 

[dohopeful13]

It definitely sucks not knowing, but I doubt even USMLE knows yet. They obviously rushed the decision to get a pat on the back from the academic crowd.

But compared to the MS2s COVID step-limbo and the M0s not getting any ceremonies/having to start online, every class has its downsides.

 

[Mass Effect]

Oh you'd be surprised at the backlash I've gotten for saying just that haha this is SDN after all

The next time someone makes such an assertion, hit them up with Dr. Death.

Christopher Duntsch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[M&L]

in my school we had a big townhall thing (before COVID), where I asked precisely that question and I was told that no one knows yet. At all. Nothing was decided about that. So, our school academic development told us to study the "normal" way, as if we assume that the grades matter. And see what happens later.

 

[7331poas]

lmao at all these people saying to study anyway. Anki is a grind. If the test is pass fail I am not going to waste my time learning about rare biochem diseases that occur once every century.

 

[Newyawk]

lmao at all these people saying to study anyway. Anki is a grind. If the test is pass fail I am not going to waste my time learning about rare biochem diseases that occur once every century.

Not sure if youre referring to the lysosomal storage disorders etc or ones not even in first aid. Memorizing the rarest of diseases is almost entirely useless for any med school board exam. On the other hand, being able to answer a novel pathophys Q is what i thought separated the higher scores from the average memorizers.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Everyone should be studying for it like it’s still scored until there’s certainty that it’s not. Worst case scenario being you find out it’s p/f and you have a super chill 4th semester and take essentially all of dedicated off.

 

[Yankees27]

With all that's going on, is the date when to begin P/F set in stone?

 

[slowthai]

Seriously can't wait to see what strategies the next P/F classes use to smash step 2. I have said in the past that you could potentially just run a lightweight step 1 deck like bros and then go crazy with Dorian for step 2, but we'll see. Could be that only the good test takers can get away with doing the bare minimum to pass step 1 while killing step 2. Who knows?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Everyone should be studying for it like it’s still scored until there’s certainty that it’s not. Worst case scenario being you find out it’s p/f and you have a super chill 4th semester and take essentially all of dedicated off.

Honestly people should still be studying like it’s scored. The majority of people aren’t getting 270s from studying like crazy.

 

[slowthai]

I have to say that whether what we're studying is clinically useful or some biochem minutiae is completely immaterial to me. Completely. lt's a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Chibucks15]

lmao at all these people saying to study anyway. Anki is a grind. If the test is pass fail I am not going to waste my time learning about rare biochem diseases that occur once every century.

That's exactly it. Save the once in a lifetime diseases for when you're in an uber fellowship that actually will see them. No sane person is going to remember it from Step 1 prep at the end of preclinical. So why even test on them other than to score it? So realistically P/F won't change all that much in my mind in the long run

 

[12jas]

Step 1 prep just in the off-chance that it would benefit me for Step 2 prep and shelf exams during third year.

I don't know what kind of material you think is covered on shelf exams and step 2 but there is a huge amount of overlap. There is no "off-chance." It absolutely could mean the difference of Honors grade/ good step 2 score. Everyone thinks they are 270 material just if they study their ass off. Reality is I studied as hard as I possible could only to get 230's but it has paid huge dividends on my shelfs throughout the year.

 

[altblue]

lmao at all these people saying to study anyway. Anki is a grind. If the test is pass fail I am not going to waste my time learning about rare biochem diseases that occur once every century.

You don't have to give up your life to obsess and prepare for Step 1 year in advance, lol. The main takeaway instead is that you shouldn't slack off and should study reasonably hard. Helps prevent failing step and lays the foundation down for future medical knowledge

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

lmao at all these people saying to study anyway. Anki is a grind. If the test is pass fail I am not going to waste my time learning about rare biochem diseases that occur once every century.

Not sure how you're studying, but I am doing zanki and still have a life and a family.

 

[Osminog]

You guys make it sound like getting a passing score on Step 1 is a gargantuan task for the typical med student. At my school (based on what I’ve heard and directly observed), plenty of students procrastinate board prep or study for boards in wildly inefficient ways (e.g., group “studying,” which mostly entails idle chatter and giggling); this especially applies to the bottom-quartile students. Despite this, almost all the students take the board exam on time and pass on the first attempt.

Consider the fact that among first-time test-takers in the US, the Step 1 pass rate is something like 95%. If you’ve been doing okay in classes and you don’t have severe memory deficits, I highly doubt you need to waste your summer memorizing 30,000 word associations just to avoid performing in the bottom fifth percentile.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Seriously can't wait to see what strategies the next P/F classes use to smash step 2. I have said in the past that you could potentially just run a lightweight step 1 deck like bros and then go crazy with Dorian for step 2, but we'll see. Could be that only the good test takers can get away with doing the bare minimum to pass step 1 while killing step 2. Who knows?

My guess is that around this time next year there will be an anki deck that’s some sort of homunculus of the current dorian stuff and B&B step 2 content that’s supposed to launch later this year. Glad I’m getting out sooner, but I’m almost jealous of people who will get that kind of high quality instruction in third year.

 

[Newyawk]

I honestly cant talk about step exams on these forums anymore. Its like talking to a wall. Bunch of anki bros out here

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I honestly cant talk about step exams on these forums anymore. Its like talking to a wall. Bunch of anki bros out here

I mean...it works?

 

[throwaway1000000]

I honestly cant talk about step exams on these forums anymore. Its like talking to a wall. Bunch of anki bros out here

Pretty much everyone does anki now and 10% of them get above a 250.
Think that explains it.

 

[slowthai]

My guess is that around this time next year there will be an anki deck that’s some sort of homunculus of the current dorian stuff and B&B step 2 content that’s supposed to launch later this year. Glad I’m getting out sooner, but I’m almost jealous of people who will get that kind of high quality instruction in third year.

I know AnKing will be on that pronto

 

[Mass Effect]

You guys make it sound like getting a passing score on Step 1 is a gargantuan task for the typical med student. At my school (based on what I’ve heard and directly observed), plenty of students procrastinate board prep or study for boards in wildly inefficient ways (e.g., group “studying,” which mostly entails idle chatter and giggling); this especially applies to the bottom-quartile students. Despite this, almost all the students take the board exam on time and pass on the first attempt.

Go with that if it works for you. Remember that the average is the average for a reason and plenty of people scored under that score. Without studying like crazy, some would not pass. That's just a fact.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Seriously can't wait to see what strategies the next P/F classes use to smash step 2. I have said in the past that you could potentially just run a lightweight step 1 deck like bros and then go crazy with Dorian for step 2, but we'll see. Could be that only the good test takers can get away with doing the bare minimum to pass step 1 while killing step 2. Who knows?

It probably depends on the timing of s2. If taken after 3rd year like it is traditionally, I would be curious how many people will study for it and ignore their class curriculum in the first 2 years. Maybe 30-40%.

Honestly until you get a decent grasp of the organ systems, I doubt you can even study for S2. At least I couldn't. For us, organ systems happened in 2nd year and I doubt I could study for s2 without finishing each organ system module.

And I also doubt you need that much time to study for S2 like you do for S1. I studied pretty hard for s1 with 2 years of studying all day long, in the summer, to score in the 250s on S1. For S2, pretty much studied a few hours each day and on weekends for the shelf exams and 1 month dedicated and scored in the 260s (same percentile as s1 but considerably less effort).

For the rest 60%, who likely will wait till mid-2nd yr or 3rd yr, it will be less crazy than s1, mainly because you won't have the time like you do now. Sure, some people will pick easy rotations, etc to create more study time but rotations will be taking majority of your time unlike now when all your focus is on s1.

My bottom line is, I am curious, but I doubt people's study habits will change much for s2 like they did for s1 mainly because of limited time in 3rd year when you would be studying for this.
S2 is also a much more clinical reasoning exam than a memorizing exam like s1 can sometimes be.

 

[slowthai]

It probably depends on the timing of s2. If taken after 3rd year like it is traditionally, I would be curious how many people will study for it and ignore their class curriculum in the first 2 years. Maybe 30-40%.

I doubt it would be that high tbh lol. A minority of people ignore class stuff currently. People will focus more on class now that the most important step will be 3 years away instead of 2. I think being on SDN/reddit makes it seem like everyone's gunning for a high step from day 1 of med school.

Honestly until you get a decent grasp of the organ systems, I doubt you can even study for S2. At least I couldn't. For us, organ systems happened in 2nd year and I doubt I could study for s2 without finishing each organ system module.

But the thing is, Anki allows you the freedom to study ahead if you're willing to put the work in consistently. Another option I've mentioned is to do step 1 and 2 decks concurrently during preclinicals. It could be synergistic; you'd be seeing the clinical side of the basic science you're learning and then "coast" during third year by just keeping up with your step 2 deck and hammering UWorld (and maybe Amboss).

 

[throwaway1000000]

I doubt it would be that high tbh lol. A minority of people ignore class stuff currently. People will focus more on class now that the most important step will be 3 years away instead of 2. I think being on SDN/reddit makes it seem like everyone's gunning for a high step from day 1 of med school.

But the thing is, Anki allows you the freedom to study ahead if you're willing to put the work in consistently. Another option I've mentioned is to do step 1 and 2 decks concurrently during preclinicals. It could be synergistic; you'd be seeing the clinical side of the basic science you're learning and then "coast" during third year by just keeping up with your step 2 deck and hammering UWorld (and maybe Amboss).

Maybe not lol. My view is biased because I studied a ton and I am on SDN.

I agree it won't be that high if I look at my class.

Yeah definitely. Just saying until I finished my cardiology module in 2nd year, I don't think I can do any cardiology related questions on s2.
What will likely happen is instead of people spending a ton of time about sarcomeres, wiggers diagram, they will start to focus on more clinical aspects of cardiology when studying, which is a good thing.

 

[bananafish94]

Seriously can't wait to see what strategies the next P/F classes use to smash step 2. I have said in the past that you could potentially just run a lightweight step 1 deck like bros and then go crazy with Dorian for step 2, but we'll see. Could be that only the good test takers can get away with doing the bare minimum to pass step 1 while killing step 2. Who knows?

Step 2 is a completely different animal that requires a totally different strategy in my opinion. Step 1 greatly rewards memory and knowing more things, and Step 2 more rewards clinical reasoning. I got a little bit above average on Step 1. Just in my personal experience, I did Zanki all of my M2 year (it was only invented that year so I didn't have the chance to do it from the very beginning) and I feel like it probably got me to my personal maximum but I really don't think even another year of intensive studying would have considerably improved my score. In contrast I got an extremely high score on Step 2 and didn't really do Anki at all because as I got into studying I felt like it was less about memorizing and more about practicing the questions and getting familiar with the type of clinical reasoning the exam is testing.

On an unrelated note I still think I would have studied just as hard if Step 1 was P/F. Again, this might have more to do with my personal comfort with risk but when the consequences of failing are so profound there's no cushion that I would ever feel totally comfortable with. I studied very hard for CS even though it's P/F just because the consequences of failing are dire.