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[deleted916180]

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[Microbug]

Rice hands down. I question the quality of CUNY SoM.

 

[Microbug]

I really don't know how it'll turn out, as there are no graduates yet. Some people tell me though, that they should improve within the next 3 years, when I start it in 2021 (If i attend). Do you think this is true at all?

If you matriculate at sophie davis, is it binding? Can you apply for other med school?

 

[efle]

Have you gotten your financial aid info from Rice? Are you actually expected to to take 60k/yr in loans? Quarter million debt for just undergrad is insane

 

[OddNath]

Hey there- I went to Rice and absolutely loved it. That said, it was much cheaper then, and I got some merit scholarships (one from Rice), so it was only like $15,000 per year, everything included.

I don’t think I would’ve gone there at the price you’re listing now.

In addition- I can’t imagine turning down an MD acceptance! Holy cow! Imagine— instead of having to stress over grades and strategically revolve your life around taking the right classes to make the right grades, and blowing a summer to cram for the MCAT...you could just study whatever interests you! And then have med school waiting for you! This sounds like a dream...I wouldn’t turn this down. You can find smart classmates anywhere.

 

[Microbug]

Hey there- I went to Rice and absolutely loved it. That said, it was much cheaper then, and I got some merit scholarships (one from Rice), so it was only like $15,000 per year, everything included.

I don’t think I would’ve gone there at the price you’re listing now.

In addition- I can’t imagine turning down an MD acceptance! Holy cow! Imagine— instead of having to stress over grades and strategically revolve your life around taking the right classes to make the right grades, and blowing a summer to cram for the MCAT...you could just study whatever interests you! And then have med school waiting for you! This sounds like a dream...I wouldn’t turn this down. You can find smart classmates anywhere.

Yeah but it’s CUNY SOM. There are a sht ton of lost opportunities if it’s binding. Your summers are also gone so you can’t use it to do research and other things to make yourself more competitive.

 

[OddNath]

Yeah but it’s CUNY SOM. There are a sht ton of lost opportunities if it’s binding. Your summers are also gone so you can’t use it to do research and other things to make yourself more competitive.

But how much does that matter? It’s an MD school- if he studies hard and does well on Step 1, most opportunities will still be open. Worst case, they could do some away rotations at bigger name schools during MS4 to get their feet in the door.

Good point about the summers being filled already, I didn’t know that. And being only 3 years for undergrad, there isn’t so much elective time, once finishing all the premed requirements. So it’s not as cush as the 8 year BS/MD programs that I had in mind.

But anyhow- unless the OP is dead set on going into a very competitive specialty, going to a lower tier MD school shouldn’t impact him too much. It’s not like going to the Caribbean or something. I mean I went to a state school for med school and I think I did ok

 

[Microbug]

But how much does that matter? It’s an MD school- if he studies hard and does well on Step 1, most opportunities will still be open. Worst case, they could do some away rotations at bigger name schools during MS4 to get their feet in the door.

Good point about the summers being filled already, I didn’t know that. And being only 3 years for undergrad, there isn’t so much elective time, once finishing all the premed requirements. So it’s not as cush as the 8 year BS/MD programs that I had in mind.

But anyhow- unless the OP is dead set on going into a very competitive specialty, going to a lower tier MD school shouldn’t impact him too much. It’s not like going to the Caribbean or something. I mean I went to a state school for med school and I think I did ok

There are many amazing state med schools, Michigan, UCs, Iowa, Ohio State... CUNY’s just not the same. Even for the mount Sinai flex program (which I consider to be prestigious), their admission director once told me that if you’re doing well in terms of your apps, you shouldn’t apply (or other linkage programs) so you won’t limit yourself down the road. I mean I have no idea what speciality I want to but I would still aim to go to the best med school and get highest board exam score as I can just in case I do want to go into a competitive speciality.

 

[OddNath]

There are many amazing state med schools, Michigan, UCs, Iowa, Ohio State... CUNY’s just not the same. Even for the mount Sinai flex program (which I consider to be prestigious), their admission director once told me that if you’re doing well in terms of your apps, you shouldn’t apply (or other linkage programs) so you won’t limit yourself down the road. I mean I have no idea what speciality I want to but I would still aim to go to the best med school and get highest board exam score as I can just in case I do want to go into a competitive speciality.

I guess based on my experience, watching 10 years of classes of MD students from state schools (mine and a couple others) and Ivies graduate...most people don’t end up wanting to do integrated plastics/derm (though there were MD students from my class who matched in both of these). The most neurotic premed from Rice, who went to a top 5 Ivy for med school, ended up having to scramble for residency (but in the end, she’s doing fine too).

I think that med school name or whatever is certainly a factor in residency admissions, but not #1, maybe more like #6? After step 1, MS3 grades, away rotation performance, AOA status, exceptional research experience (Doris Duke/HHMI scholars/etc for MD-only).

So, for the OP, it will come down to his goals. If he’s set on matching at a competitive specialty at Harvard, then yes, going to HMS is pretty much the way to do that. It’s just, by turning down the BS/MD, he then gets the joy of competing with a gazillion other Rice premeds for what may end up being an equivalent outcome. He will probably be fine either way— it’s just the stress and extra $$$ are big factors which I think will matter more in the long run. Only my opinion.

 

[WingedOx]

So are these your only options? These are pretty disparate choices.

 

[efle]

I'm lucky enough where my parents can afford to send me there w/out financial aid. We didn't qualify for any actually. I'm gonna try and see if I can get any out of them.

Can't hurt to try, especially with the pre-admit to a med school that comes attached at Sophie Davis. Tell them Rice is your first choice but you cannot justify a $240,000 expense when another institution would cost half as much with a guaranteed medical school seat. Worst case they say too bad, at which point it comes down to how much that amount of money means to your family. If cost is not an issue for your fam then don't be scared to go to Rice if you'd be happier there for your next 4 years. You can be pretty dang confident you'll still end up in a US MD school (I think they report something like an 85-90% success rate for Rice premeds), and a much more established MD program at that.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Another incentive to go to Rice. BCM loooovvvvesss Rice graduates...

 

[PreMedMissteps]

• 90% of students applying to med school get in, 99% after taking a gap year

Stats like this can be very misleading. You don’t know how many freshmen were weeded out. How many are weeded out by the time they’re seniors? 50%? 75%?

 

[WingedOx]

Stats like this can be very misleading. You don’t know how many freshmen were weeded out. How many are weeded out by the time they’re seniors? 50%? 75%?

I'm not sure why people think this is the school's fault.

 

[foregoingfun]

I thought CUNY schools were quite reputable?

 

[efle]

Stats like this can be very misleading. You don’t know how many freshmen were weeded out. How many are weeded out by the time they’re seniors? 50%? 75%?

Rice inflates, I would be shocked if they weeded a majority out

 

[Senescence kid]

I finished Ccny and have a lot of friends in Sofie Davis. Overall very positive comments. You will have a decent amount of time during undergrad portion for interests outside of school, one Of my friends is an auxiliary police, volunteer Emt and takes part in EC activities . Rotations are at St Barnabas , which from what I herd from a Urology attending does not have a lot of med students or residents potentially offering you more one on one time with attendings. The CUNY med kids have their own building too , so there are separate study places and the students usually keep together and don’t mix with the regular undergrad pop.

Just some things I noticed about CUNY SOM .

But my personal .02 is that if you choose the tradition 4 years of undergrad and then applying ..... keep your UG costs as low as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[PreMedStudent55555]

I actually got into SD but stepped back from it but first let me congratulate you as getting into SD is no easy feat. However, the issue with SD is that you get screwed over if you don't pass your boards. It's a bit hazy for me but I have a friend who went to SD and couldn't pass her STEP 1 or STEP 2 and was dropped from the program. This completely screwed her over as she didn't even have a BS coming out and had to start over from the beginning. (They integrate med school classes from the beginning so its confusing).

Overall, my impression of the program was this: CUNY SOM is a pretty good school. If you want to be a physician go there. However, you can't mess up. It's a very strict path and if you falter, you are screwed because you don't even have a BS and you came out of city college. I decided to go the traditional route because I wanted a traditional college experience and options. If things went bad in college, I would at least have a BS and can try to see myself through gap years. In all honestly, you're a smart person and if you could get into SD, you can survive it but you'd probably also do just as well in Rice. Just be wary of SD. I've only heard one story but it deterred me from that path as I saw it as a high risk/high reward program as the BS and MD is intertwined unlike regular programs that give you a BS and then a conditional MD acceptance.

 

[RunawayGrape]

If you go to Rice for undergrad, you may be able to establish residency in Texas and apply for Texas med schools when the time comes. Med school is way cheaper there, so perhaps that's something else to consider.

 

[Microbug]

I finished Ccny and have a lot of friends in Sofie Davis. Overall very positive comments. You will have a decent amount of time during undergrad portion for interests outside of school, one Of my friends is an auxiliary police, volunteer Emt and takes part in EC activities . Rotations are at St Barnabas , which from what I herd from a Urology attending does not have a lot of med students or residents potentially offering you more one on one time with attendings. The CUNY med kids have their own building too , so there are separate study places and the students usually keep together and don’t mix with the regular undergrad pop.

Just some things I noticed about CUNY SOM .

But my personal .02 is that if you choose the tradition 4 years of undergrad and then applying ..... keep your UG costs as low as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Do they rotate anywhere else? Barnabas does not have the best reputation.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

90% of students applying to med school get in, 99% after taking a gap year

Can you provide a link for this

 

[WingedOx]

Thank you. I had high stats and my interviews were all outstanding, so I think that's what got me in. I honestly was thinking of not even interviewing for the program, as I didn't want to go from the start and only applied because my mom forced me to.

I've heard multiple stories like that, and it does scare me a little, though I dont think I would have to worry if I put in the necessary work.

Do you mind if I ask what college you decided to go to, instead of Sophie?

I am dead set on medicine, so I would definitely be doing pre med, taking the mcat, and applying to med school no matter my stats, if I went to Rice.

Yeah, if it were almost any other med program, I'd take it, but this is the only one I was accepted to.

Ugh. two massive red flags there. This is why accepting to people out of HS is generally a bad idea.

 

[OddNath]

A few things to address here--

Another incentive to go to Rice. BCM loooovvvvesss Rice graduates...

So, while there is a high proportion of the BCM class which comes from Rice, part of this is due to self-selection-- Rice students tend to be pretty motivated to do well on the MCAT/etc, and many of them, due to proximity, have done shadowing/research with Baylor faculty and gets letters from them. I've known plenty of Rice students who did NOT get into BCM (myself included, haha, but I'm there now as a fellow!). So, yeah it does help, but it's not a guarantee.

I think I'd fit in really well at Rice. I'm in a group chat with a lot of people who were accepted also, and they seem like really nice people.

True, but if meant that I had a better chance at matching into a competitive residency (ortho surgery for example), should I bet on myself and take it?

People from state schools match into ortho. But, if you're set on matching ortho at Baylor, for example, then yes being a BCM med student would help quite a bit. This would be an awfully specific goal to have this early in the game, though.
Like I said earlier, the rank/tier/name of med school is a factor in residency admissions, but not the highest attribute. It matters, but if it were me, it wouldn't be worth another $200,000 to make that happen (just based on my own family's finances). Your financial equation might be quite different than mine was.

These, and my state school (I have a full ride there).

Ok why aren't we talking about this?! You have a full ride to undergrad as well, congrats! As others have said, minimizing the cost of undergrad is a real factor. Sure, your family may be able to swing the >$200,000...but does that come with strings attached? I'm just saying...in some families it does. Like "I paid all that extra for your undergrad, now you need to specialize in X or practice in your hometown Y", etc. I don't know your family dynamic- it's just something worth considering, if it really is their money.

Does your state school have an honors program/college? I would seriously be considering this option.

If you go to Rice for undergrad, you may be able to establish residency in Texas and apply for Texas med schools when the time comes. Med school is way cheaper there, so perhaps that's something else to consider.

This is true, but it is NOT automatic. I had friends from Rice (who were not TX residents) who went and bought condos to establish residency. 10 years ago, to get TX residency, it was something like you had to either own property (in your name) and be paying taxes for at least a year, or be working a full time job (and contributing taxes in that way) for at least a year after finishing undergrad. It can certainly be done, but it is non-trivial. You don't get it just by living in Houston as an undergrad student.

Stats like this can be very misleading. You don’t know how many freshmen were weeded out. How many are weeded out by the time they’re seniors? 50%? 75%?

Yeah this 90%/99% stat seems maybe a little exaggerated, but moreover, also confounded by the self-selection of students. Once again, many of these students were very hard-working and motivated to begin with, and would've had the same high MCAT if they had gone elsewhere for undergrad, and likely would've pushed themselves to be good med school candidates had they gone elsewhere. So, it's a little hard to interpret these numbers. For what it's worth, from my anecdotal sampling, I can think of 3 people off the top of my head who never got in to med school-- they had mediocre gpa's (maybe 3.4-3.6) and some other factors, but anyways, just going to Rice by itself isn't a guarantee.

Anyhow, to the OP, if you do go to Rice-- of course, enjoy it. Also, I would recommend not necessarily majoring in bio/biochem like everyone else...since at the end of the day, what matters is gpa/MCAT and storyline. Essentially, if you are passionate about social anthro or linguistics or whatever, and you can show how you went the extra mile to do research and an honors project (and maybe other activities) that tie into how it relates to medicine...this makes for a much more interesting personal statement/interviews later. Just sayin. I've seen too many people make the mistake of "I have to major in biochem and do EMT and spend all my summers doing bench research b/c that's what everyone does" and then have a disappointing application storyline later.

 

[DokterMom]

Rice is an amazing school and if your parents can afford it and, as @OddNath wisely observes, it doesn't come with heavy emotional strings -- then absolutely choose Rice. You will get an incredible education with a cohort of extremely bright students who will help you stretch your intellect and develop your mind in ways that will benefit you for the rest of your life. In addition, you will have a valuable credential that will help when you apply to medical school and also help if you change your mind -- which happens.

Houston is an inexpensive place to buy property, so you probably can buy property here to establish residency, and with roommates, come out ahead or pretty close to break even -- again, if your parents can afford it. There are lots of excellent and very affordable medical school options in TX, so if you like it here, it's as good place to be a med student. (Note: The proportion of TX applicants to matriculants is about average, but the cost and process are better and the range of school competitiveness is broad.)

I don't know what your state school is, but that's also an option to consider. You'll They'll save a boatload of money which could potentially be applied toward your medical school tuition -- or would they do Rice + Med School? (Lots of families plan financially for 4 years of private college but not for grad/med school.)

Anyway -- Rice sets you up very well for medical school, and also very well for Plan B. If the money is not a problem, it's a tough option to beat. (And as you note -- the food!)

 

[WingedOx]

I don't know what your state school is, but that's also an option to consider

Guessing it's Binghampton.

Though with regard to buying property in TX, I'd be careful. For one thing the area around Rice University is one of the trendiest upscale areas in Houston so don't expect it to be all that inexpensive, and it also much of it sits in the 500 year floodplain, which as we learned last fall is a risky venture. I'd also caution about establishing residency and make absolutely sure you know the requirements for it, because in most states simply being a student isn't good enough.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Guessing it's Binghampton.

Though with regard to buying property in TX, I'd be careful. For one thing the area around Rice University is one of the trendiest upscale areas in Houston so don't expect it to be all that inexpensive, and it also much of it sits in the 500 year floodplain, which as we learned last fall is a risky venture. I'd also caution about establishing residency and make absolutely sure you know the requirements for it, because in most states simply being a student isn't good enough.

True.. when in a state for education purposes, that usually doesn’t count for residency for tuition/instate purposes for a state med school. However, if the student does a gap year and works full time between Rice and med school, maybe it would be possible then.

 

[Goro]

Hi, I was fortunate to be accepted to both, and I need help deciding. I think that Rice is amazing and I could do well there, but is it worth forgoing a guaranteed spot at a (very new) medical school?

Rice Pros

• I love Houston. I have family there and the food is great. Cheaper than NYC
• Research and shadowing opportunities are plentiful
• Small classes, so I could get solid LORs
• Great undergraduate education
• Smart peers who will push me to do better
• 90% of students applying to med school get in, 99% after taking a gap year
• Connections to Baylor Medical School
• Great premed advising

Rice Cons

• More expensive than Sophie Davis ($45k tuition + $12k for food and housing)
• No guarantee I'll get into medical school
• I'll have to take the MCAT
• Will require more work (I'm willing though)
• Far from home (4 hour flight)
• High competition, though students help each other do well

Sophie Davis Pros

• No MCAT
• 7 year med program
• I place out of afew of classes, so I'd only be taking ~4 classes a semester
• Guaranteed acceptance to CUNY SoM
• Much closer to home (1 and a half hour train ride)
• Cheap for UG and Med School ($7k tuition the first 3 years, $40k the next 4 for medical school +$15k for food and housing)

Sophie Davis Cons

• Not as strong academics as Rice. Students told me classes are rushed to squeeze in all the material
• Students generally wouldn't be as smart (much lower SAT/GPA of average accepted student), I wouldn't be driven as far
• No meal plan
• CUNY SoM is very new. No idea how matches to competitive fields will be
• Very little flexibility. Schedule is basically set; only 3 elective spots.
• Less prestigious than Rice
• Can't transfer, as no colleges except CCNY accepts credits

As you can probably tell, I'm stuck. My parents, especially my mom, want me to take Sophie Davis, but I believe in myself that I can do better for med school, if I go to Rice, though obviously it isn't guaranteed. What would you do given my pros and cons?
Thanks

Rice is indeed an outstanding school with a lousy football team to prove it!

 

[WingedOx]

True.. when in a state for education purposes, that usually doesn’t count for residency for tuition/instate purposes for a state med school. However, if the student does a gap year and works full time between Rice and med school, maybe it would be possible then.

Tough call. Problem is you'd be applying during that gap year so only working a few months when you start out, so that may actually not be long enough. You could do the same thing at a cheaper school.

 

[OddNath]

Hey there- first, I would go take a look at SUNY Stony Brook, like this weekend. See if you can go talk to some pre-med students, maybe even meet with their pre-med advisor. Maybe sit in on a class. Really get a feel for the place. If this is a place that you would have access to smaller class sizes (at least for the upper level classes) and think you could thrive, this would be a good option.

I can’t imagine paying $60,000/year to go to Rice. Think about what else you could do with the money, that could enrich your college experience— would you like to spend your winter breaks doing medical trips abroad? Would you like to spend your summers at the NIH (or Harvard or Oxford) to do research? Using some money to absolutely maximize your summer/winter breaks (almost a third of the year) could go a long way.

Brooklyn/SUNY downstate- is this a 7 or 8 year program? If 8, I’d strongly consider. If 7, I’d consider only if you think you would thrive there as an undergrad.

 

[not_real_name]

While going through this thread, I realized you had some great options! And a tough decision. What did you end up deciding?

Hi, I was fortunate to be accepted to both, and I need help deciding. I think that Rice is amazing and I could do well there, but is it worth forgoing a guaranteed spot at a (very new) medical school?

Rice Pros

• I love Houston. I have family there and the food is great. Cheaper than NYC
• Research and shadowing opportunities are plentiful
• Small classes, so I could get solid LORs
• Great undergraduate education
• Smart peers who will push me to do better
• 90% of students applying to med school get in, 99% after taking a gap year
• Connections to Baylor Medical School
• Great premed advising

Rice Cons

• More expensive than Sophie Davis ($45k tuition + $12k for food and housing)
• No guarantee I'll get into medical school
• I'll have to take the MCAT
• Will require more work (I'm willing though)
• Far from home (4 hour flight)
• High competition, though students help each other do well

Sophie Davis Pros

• No MCAT
• 7 year med program
• I place out of afew of classes, so I'd only be taking ~4 classes a semester
• Guaranteed acceptance to CUNY SoM
• Much closer to home (1 and a half hour train ride)
• Cheap for UG and Med School ($7k tuition the first 3 years, $40k the next 4 for medical school +$15k for food and housing)

Sophie Davis Cons

• Not as strong academics as Rice. Students told me classes are rushed to squeeze in all the material
• Students generally wouldn't be as smart (much lower SAT/GPA of average accepted student), I wouldn't be driven as far
• No meal plan
• CUNY SoM is very new. No idea how matches to competitive fields will be
• Very little flexibility. Schedule is basically set; only 3 elective spots.
• Less prestigious than Rice
• Can't transfer, as no colleges except CCNY accepts credits

As you can probably tell, I'm stuck. My parents, especially my mom, want me to take Sophie Davis, but I believe in myself that I can do better for med school, if I go to Rice, though obviously it isn't guaranteed. What would you do given my pros and cons?
Thanks

 

[bluejay21]

Hey I was in a similar situation to you- I was accepted to Sophie Davis, the Brooklyn BA-MD program, and given a guaranteed spot at SUNY-Upstate through a college Upstate. I ended up choosing Sophie Davis and it will definitely get you in the door of medicine but may not be for everyone. What I mean is that from the very first day, all your classes will be focused on medicine and taking the boards. You will have little to no time for anything much else as they will pack your summers and semesters with going to clinics as early as your undergraduate years to shadow doctors. If you are committed to medicine, I would choose Sophie. But if you are still not sure, then choose the traditional route. I do regret a bit not having the typical college experience but I think it is worth it in the end for me personally. It really depends on you and how driven you are to doing this that you are willing to make those sacrifices.

 

[rad56]

Hey I was in a similar situation to you- I was accepted to Sophie Davis, the Brooklyn BA-MD program, and given a guaranteed spot at SUNY-Upstate through a college Upstate. I ended up choosing Sophie Davis and it will definitely get you in the door of medicine but may not be for everyone. What I mean is that from the very first day, all your classes will be focused on medicine and taking the boards. You will have little to no time for anything much else as they will pack your summers and semesters with going to clinics as early as your undergraduate years to shadow doctors. If you are committed to medicine, I would choose Sophie. But if you are still not sure, then choose the traditional route. I do regret a bit not having the typical college experience but I think it is worth it in the end for me personally. It really depends on you and how driven you are to doing this that you are willing to make those sacrifices.

I'm happy that I got to read your comment and if it's no bother or distraction to your studies, how were your stats getting into the Sophie Davis program including grades, extracurricular activities, and how the interviews went. Their requirements seem pretty low and I pass all of them grade-wise but still am kind of scared about what more they require to get into the program, knowing how challenging it is? Thanks in advance and hope you're doing well in the program so far!

 

[trusttheprocess1]

Hey I was in a similar situation to you- I was accepted to Sophie Davis, the Brooklyn BA-MD program, and given a guaranteed spot at SUNY-Upstate through a college Upstate. I ended up choosing Sophie Davis and it will definitely get you in the door of medicine but may not be for everyone. What I mean is that from the very first day, all your classes will be focused on medicine and taking the boards. You will have little to no time for anything much else as they will pack your summers and semesters with going to clinics as early as your undergraduate years to shadow doctors. If you are committed to medicine, I would choose Sophie. But if you are still not sure, then choose the traditional route. I do regret a bit not having the typical college experience but I think it is worth it in the end for me personally. It really depends on you and how driven you are to doing this that you are willing to make those sacrifices.

Hi @bluejay21. I'm quite late to this conversation, but I'm in a similar situation and would greatly appreciate any help. I'm currently trying to decide between the 8-year SUNY Upstate program and the Sophie Davis program. Would you be able to give me some insight as to what factors made you choose Sophie over Upstate and how you made a decision? I'm honestly torn and would appreciate any insight.
Thank you!