Rick Kids and/or kids with highly educated parents do better on Step 1, why?

psychMDhopefully

2+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2016
664
773
Status
Medical Student
Our deans decided to show us Step 1 data for our class, the people who did the best, ON AVERAGE were also people who came from families with high parental income and/or those who had physicians as parents. People from less privileged backgrounds overall did worse. But why the hell is that? We all took the same classes and mostly used UFAP, and people can take out loan money to buy resources so the " rich kids can afford more study resources" doesn't seem to apply here. Of course there will always be outliers that people like to post on threads like this of the guy grew up homeless and is now a neurosurgeon, or the girls whose dad is a neurosurgeon but she is failing everything. But overall more privileged people do better, Why? Is it just that their parent put them in elite education from k- college, so they have had a lifetime to develop study habits instead of just the 4 years of pre med? Does better education earlier in life when our brains are still very plastic mean an easier time learning things overall? Do the kids of physicians feel like they have to out do their parents achievements, and poorer students are just happy to be in med school? Students and admins, what do you think?
 

Goro

7+ Year Member
Jun 10, 2010
53,634
78,881
Somewhere west of St. Louis
Status
Non-Student
When you have the resources, you learn earlier how to learn.

Work ethic will cut across all demographics.
 
Jun 13, 2016
249
309
2 things.

1. The sample size of your one class is not very large. Is there real larger scale data to support your assertion?

2. It would make logical sense that kids who are used to learning being their primary role are better at learning. Kids who grew up with piano lessons and extracurricular activities and resources learned how to use them much earlier than people who had to fight their ass off to get them and may have had to work to help support their families rather than dedicate their time to study skills. Also, the rich kids can still afford more, even in medical school. There is something to be said for studying with a mind free of worry from having your rent paid on time and if you are going to be able to afford groceries if your school's student loan budget doesn't account for everything one may need (which many do not) but you have parental help.
 
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
When you have the resources, you learn earlier how to learn.

Work ethic will cut across all demographics.
When I was growing up I didn't have much money and lived in a podunk town with a subpar school system. At the time my parents did not have college degrees, but they instilled a strong work ethic in me.

I think it has been an uphill battle to be aware of what I needed to do at each step in order to get to medical school. Rich kids can afford better preparation at every step of the game and its easy for them to shadow or get clinically relevant ECs if their parents have connections. An example is that I didn't even know studying for the SAT was a thing people did. I just showed up one day and took it. It turned out well and I went to a good undergrad, but many other people at my high school had potential that could have been brought out with just a bit of preparation that is normal in other parts of the country. Without parental connections, I also had to cold call physicians for things like shadowing or to get clinical experience. Over the years I think it develops a certain strength and perseverance.

In medical school, I was frustrated by how rich my classmates were and how, although they think they had a hard road to medical school, it really fell into their laps compared to many other people who try to walk the same path. When asked where I grew up I would frequently be teased, and while many passed it off as a joke but I knew that there was truth in it. There is a very pervasive social/geographic elitism in medical school and at first it made me mad, but now Im just tired of it. If you grew up somewhere between the narrow strips of land on the coasts then you probably drove your tractor to a one room school house where you had lectures on creationism. Hyperbole obviously, but there are many frustrating and offensive assumptions that are made. I was disappointed to find that attendings are some of the worst offenders. Its exhausting and I usually avoid telling people where I am from.

All of this resulted in me having a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I studied harder than I ever had which resulted in me honoring every course in MS1 and 2 and scoring in the 100th percentile on Step 1. Looking back I think a lot of my drive was a desire to prove myself and show people that just because you grow up in a backwater town in a flyover state and didn't go to Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you can't be the best student in your medical school class. Sometimes I marvel at how many brilliant people with untapped potential are probably in towns like where I grew up across the country, but they never used that potential for silly reasons. Reasons such as not knowing they should study for the SAT, needing to work a job or two in high school, or having home issues that detracted from school performance.

I write all of this to say that I can absolutely see how family income can make someone better prepared. Step 1 prep isn't cheap and if my parents chipped in I would feel more free to experiment with different resources or to use them for longer periods of time. Better schools at every stage, more money to invest in resources, networking/connections for ECs all adds up. High socioeconomic status also means you are more likely to have family members (siblings, cousins, etc.) and friends in medical school who can advise you on how and when to prepare for things. Those of us blazing the path for the first time need a combination of resourcefulness and grit to achieve the same scores.
 
Last edited:
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
I've also noticed that low SES students tend not to be interested in super competitive specialties anyway. The folks who come in wanting to do ortho, ENT, derm, plastics etc. seem to have physician parents. At least in my experience. So perhaps rich kids study harder due to this.

Could just be my school though.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:

NotYou20

5+ Year Member
Dec 23, 2012
729
1,109
Status
Medical Student
Early childhood development is really important and lasts a lifetime. Rich kids tend to have the best situation then and it builds on itself. I'd also wager that rich kids are a tad smarter on average. Maybe that's even among the med student population, maybe not.
 

mw18

5+ Year Member
Jan 7, 2014
890
959
Status
Medical Student
A possible theory is that it also may make sense that kids who are from more disadvantaged backgrounds got into the school with lower levels of performance on standardized tests (MCAT). It would make sense that at least some of this group would continue this trend as it is not certain that it was a lack of access to the information tested on the mcat that led to their lower performance. What they bring to the class as having overcome these obstacles is valuable, but it doesn't necessarily translate to Step 1 success.
 
OP
P

psychMDhopefully

2+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2016
664
773
Status
Medical Student
I've also noticed that low SES students tend not to be interested in super competitive specialties anyway. The folks who come in wanting to do ortho, ENT, derm, plastics etc. seem to have physician parents. At least in my experience. So perhaps rich kids study harder due to this.

Could just be my school though.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Its not just your school, I think poorer students are more likely to realize the value of primary care and serve the type of neighborhoods they come from, and kids who have physician parents tend to want to out do their parents, because they feel like they are expected to. I have a friend and his dad is a dermatologist, he is trying his damnedest to match derm at a place " more prestigious" than where his father did his training.
 

3characterslong

2+ Year Member
Mar 24, 2016
65
117
Its not just your school, I think poorer students are more likely to realize the value of primary care and serve the type of neighborhoods they come from, and kids who have physician parents tend to want to out do their parents, because they feel like they are expected to. I have a friend and his dad is a dermatologist, he is trying his damnedest to match derm at a place " more prestigious" than where his father did his training.
Additionally: Poor kids have already outdone their parents just by getting into med school, if that were a major motivating factor.
 

Jabbed

5+ Year Member
Jan 30, 2013
1,636
1,896
North of the Wall
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Malcolm Gladwell had a really interesting discussion on this in Outliers. Here's a synopsis:

Most professional hockey players have birthdays in fall/winter. Why? Because the cut-off month for a child to start elementary school is August/September. On day 1 of school, the child born in August is 11 months older than the child born in July. For the sake of argument, they might have identical growth/educational trajectories, but the child born in August is likely going to be physically larger than the child born in July. Now, put a hockey stick in each of their hands and who is likely to be the "better" player?

Now, the child born in August is put through expensive coaching and training and practices his hockey skills every day (he's good at it after all). The child born in July just can't compete initially, so there's less of a reason to invest effort in to him.

20 years down the line you have a pro-athlete and an average joe. The 11 months age difference at this point is negligible, but the ramifications of the differential treatment starting from an early age are huge.
 

DocWinter

Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2014
1,145
1,234
Status
Resident [Any Field]
It's not medical school, it's being raised in an education environment. The culture of learning and ability provided by money.

Also there are probably more of them smart genes going for them, by average, than the Joe like me that busted ass while working full time to get the sciences and MCAT complete at a later stage in life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tankster1 and porc

NotYou20

5+ Year Member
Dec 23, 2012
729
1,109
Status
Medical Student
Malcolm Gladwell had a really interesting discussion on this in Outliers. Here's a synopsis:

Most professional hockey players have birthdays in fall/winter. Why? Because the cut-off month for a child to start elementary school is August/September. On day 1 of school, the child born in August is 11 months older than the child born in July. For the sake of argument, they might have identical growth/educational trajectories, but the child born in August is likely going to be physically larger than the child born in July. Now, put a hockey stick in each of their hands and who is likely to be the "better" player?

Now, the child born in August is put through expensive coaching and training and practices his hockey skills every day (he's good at it after all). The child born in July just can't compete initially, so there's less of a reason to invest effort in to him.

20 years down the line you have a pro-athlete and an average joe. The 11 months age difference at this point is negligible, but the ramifications of the differential treatment starting from an early age are huge.
Good book. I'm probably a more relevant example of the principle. I was a very good reader growing up, reading at a high school level by third grade or so. I enjoyed it too. In second and third grade my school had a little group for the advanced readers separate from the rest of the class. It was great but it stopped for whatever reason in fourth grade. After this I struggled to find books other than Harry potter that I enjoyed. My parents tried to help, but my mom mostly read romance novels and dad didn't read at all. No one I asked could find a book I liked. I'm sure they're would've been tons but I was recommended standards teenage novels that bored me. So I stopped reading except for the odd history book. I found a few books at the end of high school that I liked and got back into it in college.

But I'm not a great reader anymore. My vocabulary is mediocre. If i was from an affluent family it'd be much more likely that my interest and talent would've been fostered. Instead it just died out.

I'm not from a poor family either, just an uneducated one. I'd imagine over half the country had a similar or worse situation.
 

giantswing

7+ Year Member
Jan 12, 2010
789
1,012
Status
Maybe they had better conditions while studying, and were less stressed out on test day? Meaning, they went home and lived in luxury, had amazing meals prepped for them, and had all their chores taken care of? The people who have this advantage tended to do very well in my class during 1st year (they'd go home for a couple days every other week). I'm too far away from home to do that, but if I could go home to mommy's porsche, nice restaurants, fancy gym with hot girls, etc. every other weekend vs. staying here for months at a time and having to live in isolation in my apartment, eat ****ty takeout/meals I try to prepare, and live in a lower class area, I'd be happier too.
Cry me a river. What about people who are married and/or have children?
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
35,552
65,171
4th Dimension
Cry me a river. What about people who are married and/or have children?
Generally those I know that are married with children fare worse than those that are not, while those who are married without children do better. Kids are a time and energy sink for most people, while spouses can help make your life easier and give you something to work toward.
 
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
Generally those I know that are married with children fare worse than those that are not, while those who are married without children do better. Kids are a time and energy sink for most people, while spouses can help make your life easier and give you something to work toward.
I agree from what I've seen. I know a few people that have had children in medical school and I don't envy them one bit. Balancing studying and family after an exhausting day on say, surgery, would be incredibly difficult.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 

immunology89

7+ Year Member
Sep 2, 2011
88
23
Status
This notion of the poor farmer's daughter/son wanting to go back to serve her/his community as a PCP having any significant effect on a school's step 1 average is pretty silly. Unfortunately, very few medical students endorse rural origin, despite 20% of the US population living in such areas. About 1% of physicians were born in a rural county according to the AAFP Center for Policy Studies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: slowlybutshelly
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
This notion of the poor farmer's daughter/son wanting to go back to serve her/his community as a PCP having any significant effect on a school's step 1 average is pretty silly. Unfortunately, very few medical students endorse rural origin, despite 20% of the US population living in such areas. About 1% of physicians were born in a rural county according to the AAFP Center for Policy Studies.
I don't know about others but I was just suggesting that the "poor farmer's daughter/son" may score lower on average due to desiring less competitive specialties rather than the few of them that are in med school classes bringing the average down.

I agree with you though that it is a shame the demographic isn't well represented.
 
  • Like
Reactions: immunology89
Oct 27, 2013
4,212
1,359
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Our deans decided to show us Step 1 data for our class, the people who did the best, ON AVERAGE were also people who came from families with high parental income and/or those who had physicians as parents. People from less privileged backgrounds overall did worse. But why the hell is that? We all took the same classes and mostly used UFAP, and people can take out loan money to buy resources so the " rich kids can afford more study resources" doesn't seem to apply here. Of course there will always be outliers that people like to post on threads like this of the guy grew up homeless and is now a neurosurgeon, or the girls whose dad is a neurosurgeon but she is failing everything. But overall more privileged people do better, Why? Is it just that their parent put them in elite education from k- college, so they have had a lifetime to develop study habits instead of just the 4 years of pre med? Does better education earlier in life when our brains are still very plastic mean an easier time learning things overall? Do the kids of physicians feel like they have to out do their parents achievements, and poorer students are just happy to be in med school? Students and admins, what do you think?
Look up the enrollment data at the best universities in the country, you might notice that the students there happen to come from the best private schools and richest public school districts in the country. Also many of these students often enter postgraduate study in various fields including medicine, so maybe that might be why more well to do students score well on board exams. Well to do students also score well on SAT exams and tend to get into top universities, the same people usually repeat that performance on other standardized tests. I think its because they got access to better educational resources to succeed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldanddone

immunology89

7+ Year Member
Sep 2, 2011
88
23
Status
Look up the enrollment data at the best universities in the country, you might notice that the students there happen to come from the best private schools and richest public school districts in the country. Also many of these students often enter postgraduate study in various fields including medicine, so maybe that might be why more well to do students score well on board exams. Well to do students also score well on SAT exams and tend to get into top universities, the same people usually repeat that performance on other standardized tests. I think its because they got access to better educational resources to succeed.
Those enrollment data may ironically become more skewed with public colleges going tuition-free: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/the-problem-with-tuition-free-public-education/496238/
 

solitarius

7+ Year Member
May 20, 2010
1,355
948
Status
Medical Student
I'd say the nature of medical education favors people who have refined their study methods and can grind long hours. Most medical students fall in the same lump where performance is totally a function of effort - i.e., they're nerds not geniuses or critical thinkers.

What's interesting to note is that there are a lot of high SES kids who dropped premed, so you're seeing selection bias. You're comparing the best of high SES against the best of low SES. The former has been ruthlessly culled in the admissions process, the latter less so.

From my own class, I know who the high SES kids are. They're neurotic workaholics. The low SES kids tend to have lower confidence, worse preparation; some cram.

I wouldn't obsess about SES. An equally effective study could have examined the correlation of Step 1 scores with student's looks, social awkwardness, and virginity status.
 

slowlybutshelly

ms4
7+ Year Member
Nov 14, 2009
505
17
out of my backpack
Status
Medical Student
http://www.acadianmuseum.com/apology.html

This is the community I am from. generations and generations of 'up by the bootstraps'. My father couldn't speak French in schools and was told he had to speak English. there are murals in my area that have been painted 'I will not speak French'..like a kid is writing . I will not....

I started medical school when learning was on paper out of books, and there was bubble in scan tron exams, even way before turnikin to prevent plagiarism. Now technology has advanced and there is embedded videos on computerized exams. My standardized test scores were very poor circa 1989 when it was pen and paper bubble in scantrons. now, because I discovered that I was an audio learner, I am passing exams because the current technology meshes with my learning style.

BUT I am twice the educational debt of a regular student. all because I started from a family growing rice and beans on a farm raising cattle in acadiana. I have done rotations where people say 'what is a white person doing here'? People are so quick to judge that just because you are white you come from ...$$$. I had no help with my education from my parents, extended family, or siblings. says a lot about my family I know..but there is Hope. the audacity of Hope doesn't just apply to inner city areas..
 
Last edited:

Phloston

Lifetime Donor
7+ Year Member
Jan 17, 2012
3,660
1,353
Osaka, Japan
When you don't come from a family with a lot of money your priorities and outlook are different. I lived with a poor Vietnamese family for a year whose mother was doing research, but it was always a side endeavor at best. Focusing on your goals and dreams is a luxury. It's the new luxury.
 

slowlybutshelly

ms4
7+ Year Member
Nov 14, 2009
505
17
out of my backpack
Status
Medical Student
whoa. I graduated high school, went to Duke, did Peace Corps, went tulane for my MPH. passed step1, CS. Now being told I cannot go forward because of 6 attempt rule changes. First in my family to attempt medical school. But I come from immediate family of ClusterB personalities. in debt up to my ears...all educational debt. have not had children because 'I will spend the rest of my life getting myself out of debt along with any hypothetical future children'.
I'm one of the exceptions. Dropped out of HS, first in my family to graduate college, 260s on Step 1. I agree about your small sample size and I'd be interested to know what the results would be on a larger scale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dougy

slowlybutshelly

ms4
7+ Year Member
Nov 14, 2009
505
17
out of my backpack
Status
Medical Student
I do not understand what is in pink below my last
whoa. I graduated high school, went to Duke, did Peace Corps, went tulane for my MPH. passed step1, CS. Now being told I cannot go forward because of 6 attempt rule changes. First in my family to attempt medical school. But I come from immediate family of ClusterB personalities. in debt up to my ears...all educational debt. have not had children because 'I will spend the rest of my life getting myself out of debt along with any hypothetical future children'.
post; is this a response? and if so, how did you do it? I see a little arrow that points upward so I am assuming it refers to my post.
 

slowlybutshelly

ms4
7+ Year Member
Nov 14, 2009
505
17
out of my backpack
Status
Medical Student
My heart break i sthat I see the fraternity/sorority system; that is the medical ssystem. But it makes me sick at times. The 'immunity' some populations have. The feeling that if i make is into this system that I won't 'fit in with the one I left'. The sense that 'yes I am a scientist' but no I do not want to make a rank/order list.
 

slowlybutshelly

ms4
7+ Year Member
Nov 14, 2009
505
17
out of my backpack
Status
Medical Student
I think there is the 'worry factor'; the "I may be an olympian but do I deserve to pass'? I know I struggle with a fear of success. many people think I have stinking thinking but the fact is that I was not brought up parenst who said ' try something, see if you like it; be the best you can be in it. I was brought up in a family that the message was ' I had you but you are stealing my resources'. and 'how darn you be ambitious' ..pure CLUSTERB control. I am trying to undo it all at age 50.
 

Foot Fetish

2+ Year Member
Jun 4, 2016
682
1,357
Status
Medical Student
M1 here. I come from a socioeconomically disadvantaged background. 1st generation college student. My parents used to work as janitors when I was growing up actually...and now I fully plan on crushing the rich kids when it comes to grades and board scores. My background fuels me. Contrary to what some posters have been positing, I don't feel like I already "made it" just by getting here. I feel as though I have something to prove. I will work harder than the rich kids. I already see it happening. It's week 1, and they're already planning parties, going out to bars, etc...meanwhile, I crank Anki cards for hours and hours, stopping only to watch lecture videos on 2x speed. I'm on a mission. That said, I'm under no illusion that all my hard work will guarantee that I'm in the top 15% of the class. There are more factors involved. Some of it comes down to innate intelligence (IQ) and luck. I don't pretend to have the highest IQ, but what I lack in intelligence I will make up for in sheer determination and brutish hard work (when I'm not posting on sdn lol)
 
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
M1 here. I come from a socioeconomically disadvantaged background. 1st generation college student. My parents used to work as janitors when I was growing up actually...and now I fully plan on crushing the rich kids when it comes to grades and board scores. My background fuels me. Contrary to what some posters have been positing, I don't feel like I already "made it" just by getting here. I feel as though I have something to prove. I will work harder than the rich kids. I already see it happening. It's week 1, and they're already planning parties, going out to bars, etc...meanwhile, I crank Anki cards for hours and hours, stopping only to watch lecture videos on 2x speed. I'm on a mission. That said, I'm under no illusion that all my hard work will guarantee that I'm in the top 15% of the class. There are more factors involved. Some of it comes down to innate intelligence (IQ) and luck. I don't pretend to have the highest IQ, but what I lack in intelligence I will make up for in sheer determination and brutish hard work (when I'm not posting on sdn lol)
Get it. I had the same feelings/reactions first year. Just make sure not to burn out or be too antisocial. The former can undermine your studying efforts obviously and the latter is important because your classmates often have insider information or tips that you'll want them to feel comfortable sharing with you.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Oct 27, 2013
4,212
1,359
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Those enrollment data may ironically become more skewed with public colleges going tuition-free: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/the-problem-with-tuition-free-public-education/496238/
You don't mention the entire article, the article states that more high ranked public schools will get applicants from rich families while less prestigious public universities will get poorer applicants. Who really knows what will be the result.

Applying to medical school is an expensive process that favors more affluent people, you need a minimum of a four year degree, plus an MCAT score. Many people usually take a prep course, those cost thousands of dollars alone. Applications to schools are expensive, going to an interview costs money, going to school costs money, deposits, everything else. Many schools are located in places with little or no public transportation.

I got family in Japan, where college is far less expensive, and they have no complaints. The ROI is much better there for a graduate compared to a graduate in America in 2016. Right now the country is having problems, that it is trying to get foreigners to study there and work there. Here we got college graduates leaving school and making coffee at Starbucks or not even working.

The only people sweating the idea of free public colleges are administrators at private colleges around the country, because they realize that the public financial aid money $$$ is going to soon go away. The only private schools that will survive will be the elite schools, the Harvards and Stanfords, MITs, etc.
 
Last edited:

sancus3

2+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2016
12
3
Status
Medical Student
I'm sure there are tons of exceptions but isn't intelligence a huge determinant in upward mobility and a highly heritable trait? Maybe their parents are more successful because they're bright, and they're predisposed to learn material quicker because their parents gave them better genes. I'm sure all sorts of psychosocial factors are at play too but we're not all created equal.

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v20/n1/full/mp2014105a.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: HereWeGo21 and W19
OP
P

psychMDhopefully

2+ Year Member
Jan 1, 2016
664
773
Status
Medical Student
M1 here. I come from a socioeconomically disadvantaged background. 1st generation college student. My parents used to work as janitors when I was growing up actually...and now I fully plan on crushing the rich kids when it comes to grades and board scores. My background fuels me. Contrary to what some posters have been positing, I don't feel like I already "made it" just by getting here. I feel as though I have something to prove. I will work harder than the rich kids. I already see it happening. It's week 1, and they're already planning parties, going out to bars, etc...meanwhile, I crank Anki cards for hours and hours, stopping only to watch lecture videos on 2x speed. I'm on a mission. That said, I'm under no illusion that all my hard work will guarantee that I'm in the top 15% of the class. There are more factors involved. Some of it comes down to innate intelligence (IQ) and luck. I don't pretend to have the highest IQ, but what I lack in intelligence I will make up for in sheer determination and brutish hard work (when I'm not posting on sdn lol)

And then you realize everybody in the class is just as smart and hard working as you, and they also have the dream of being top of the class. You may be able to transcend the class rank in undergrad, but that is Very, very, VERY, hard to do in med school. There is just to much academic talent in a med school class. Post here after you first semester and we'll see if you are top of the class.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dougy
Jun 22, 2015
521
711
And then you realize everybody in the class is just as smart and hard working as you, and they also have the dream of being top of the class. You may be able to transcend the class rank in undergrad, but that is Very, very, VERY, hard to do in med school. There is just to much academic talent in a med school class. Post here after you first semester and we'll see if you are top of the class.
I'm not genius but did it. It just takes a lot of hard work. People don't study as much as I thought they would in med school. Lots of going out, foodies wasting time trying local restaurants all the time, people hiking on weekends, taking trips etc.

The solution is don't have a life and work hard. Mix in the prerequisite level of intelligence to get into med school and you can do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 

coldcase331

2+ Year Member
Feb 23, 2015
651
749
Status
Medical Student
Seriously, who cares about someone else's financial status? Once in medical school, you're all on the same level playing field. Whether daddy is paying for med school of you're taking out your own loans, you're in the same situation and have the power to control your own destiny. Some people are blessed financial stability, life is not fair. But YOU have the power to make the most of your time in medical school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DetectiveAlonzo

Foot Fetish

2+ Year Member
Jun 4, 2016
682
1,357
Status
Medical Student
I'm not genius but did it. It just takes a lot of hard work. People don't study as much as I thought they would in med school. Lots of going out, foodies wasting time trying local restaurants all the time, people hiking on weekends, taking trips etc.

The solution is don't have a life and work hard. Mix in the prerequisite level of intelligence to get into med school and you can do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
This 100% .

I may not be the most intelligent person in my class, but I can be the hardest working. While they're all out getting hammered tonight, I'll be finishing up my flash cards for NEXT WEEK'S lectures. Seriously, we all may be comparably intelligent and capable, so it comes down to who is willing to make more sacrifices. A lot of these kids comes from families where they never had to make sacrifices. Their idea of sacrifice is settling for a Lexus instead of a Benz...I on the other hand grew up pretty poor. Seeing my parents put in backbreaking manual labor to provide for our family was life-changing. Sitting in a comfortable chair and studying anatomy for 10 hours straight doesn't seem so bad when you've seen people work a hell of a lot harder.

And then there's the factor of the formerly neurotic geeky premed kids now trying desperately to catch up on missed experiences. Personally, I sowed enough wild oats in undergrad for a lifetime. Think "Animal House." At first, I regretted it because it destroyed my undergrad GPA and forced me to take 2 gap years to get into med school...but now that I'm in med school, I am so grateful that I partied like crazy in college because now I have no more desire to do so. While the ones who were obsessive premeds are now blossoming and trying desperately to be more sociable and adventurous for once in their lives, I'm over here buckling down and reading like a man possessed. I'm also engaged to be married, so I don't have to worry about dating or any of that other time-wasting crap. I'm focused like a laser right now.

So yeah, we're all intelligent people in med school, but few have the sitzfleisch to separate themselves from the pack. This is basic science we're talking about after all. It's not rocket science. Sure there are some concepts that you need to wrap your head around, but they're concepts that most college kids could understand. The real meat of it is just plain old memorization. Lots of it. This is where I thrive. To make an analogy between the brain and a conputer, I may not have the fastest CPU in my class, but I have tons of hard-drive space and plenty of time to fill it up. That's what's gonna put me on top. Go ahead. Turn on the damn firehose. I'll drink it all and not miss a drop.
 

Syncrohnize

PGY-1
7+ Year Member
Dec 28, 2010
2,866
2,831
Status
Resident [Any Field]
This 100% .

I may not be the most intelligent person in my class, but I can be the hardest working. While they're all out getting hammered tonight, I'll be finishing up my flash cards for NEXT WEEK'S lectures. Seriously, we all may be comparably intelligent and capable, so it comes down to who is willing to make more sacrifices. A lot of these kids comes from families where they never had to make sacrifices. Their idea of sacrifice is settling for a Lexus instead of a Benz...I on the other hand grew up pretty poor. Seeing my parents put in backbreaking manual labor to provide for our family was life-changing. Sitting in a comfortable chair and studying anatomy for 10 hours straight doesn't seem so bad when you've seen people work a hell of a lot harder.

And then there's the factor of the formerly neurotic geeky premed kids now trying desperately to catch up on missed experiences. Personally, I sowed enough wild oats in undergrad for a lifetime. Think "Animal House." At first, I regretted it because it destroyed my undergrad GPA and forced me to take 2 gap years to get into med school...but now that I'm in med school, I am so grateful that I partied like crazy in college because now I have no more desire to do so. While the ones who were obsessive premeds are now blossoming and trying desperately to be more sociable and adventurous for once in their lives, I'm over here buckling down and reading like a man possessed. I'm also engaged to be married, so I don't have to worry about dating or any of that other time-wasting crap. I'm focused like a laser right now.

So yeah, we're all intelligent people in med school, but few have the sitzfleisch to separate themselves from the pack. This is basic science we're talking about after all. It's not rocket science. Sure there are some concepts that you need to wrap your head around, but they're concepts that most college kids could understand. The real meat of it is just plain old memorization. Lots of it. This is where I thrive. To make an analogy between the brain and a conputer, I may not have the fastest CPU in my class, but I have tons of hard-drive space and plenty of time to fill it up. That's what's gonna put me on top. Go ahead. Turn on the damn firehose. I'll drink it all and not miss a drop.

:banana:
 
Dec 1, 2014
1,740
1,614
Who cares how they did? lol

Seriosuly?

There's rich people out there dumb as ****ing rocks and there are "poor" people out there that are ****ing geniuses.

Wealth is a state of mind, not one that has to do with what is in your pockets or bank account.
 
Oct 27, 2013
4,212
1,359
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I'm sure there are tons of exceptions but isn't intelligence a huge determinant in upward mobility and a highly heritable trait? Maybe their parents are more successful because they're bright, and they're predisposed to learn material quicker because their parents gave them better genes. I'm sure all sorts of psychosocial factors are at play too but we're not all created equal.

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v20/n1/full/mp2014105a.html
People from more affluent backgrounds have access to better resources, usually live in safer living environments, I could probably write a very long book on the subject on this issue. There are many poor kids who have the potential to do well in school but do not because of many factors that prevent them and often its economic and environmental, many kids don't have access to internet, they don't have parents buying them computers and iPads, sending them to good schools where they become good learners.

The odds are better for richer students to perform better but even then its up to the person.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2013
4,212
1,359
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Everyone is beating around the bush here. On average smarter people are richer. Smart people have smart babies.
LOL. I know plenty of smart people who are not rich. Its not like my professors in school were driving Ferraris and owned palatial villas in the Mediterranean. These people are extremely intelligent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OchemOficionado

coldcase331

2+ Year Member
Feb 23, 2015
651
749
Status
Medical Student
LOL. I know plenty of smart people who are not rich. Its not like my professors in school were driving Ferraris and owned palatial villas in the Mediterranean. These people are extremely intelligent.
But he does bring up the point that smart people have smart babies. There is no doubt that intellectual compatibility can be important to a good number of people. If smart people come together and have babies, they will instill the value of education/hard work.
 

lymphocyte

2+ Year Member
Feb 27, 2015
2,068
3,387
COPD 50/50 Club
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Everyone is beating around the bush here. On average smarter people are richer. Smart people have smart babies.
But he does bring up the point that smart people have smart babies. There is no doubt that intellectual compatibility can be important to a good number of people. If smart people come together and have babies, they will instill the value of education/hard work.
This is not uncontroversial, for strong scientific reasons as well as for moral reasons, particularly when notions like "smarter babies"--genetic inheritance of intelligence--has had a fraught and devastating legacy throughout human history. That doesn't mean it can't be talked about, but at least the discussion needs to be informed by lots of rigorous scientific data and careful reasoning.

A great book on this topic is Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man." A modern classic of anthropology. You might disagree with its conclusions, which is fine, but 1) it's incredibly well written, 2) it conveys the perils of confusing data with measures (which happens often in medicine, even on the wards, even to the administrators, even when it comes to things like sepsis, nevermind class), and 3) at least it starts the conversation, a conversation you can continue to have with your colleagues throughout your medical career, regardless of what you ultimately conclude.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OchemOficionado

TedStark

Membership Revoked
Removed
May 28, 2016
86
70
Imagine two kinds of people running a marathon, walkers and runners. The poor kids (walkers) are just happy to be there. The rich kids (runners) are competing with each other. The majority of the class is walking. "I grew up in the trash cans, family Med , 250k/year, less studying/stress? Hell yea." Since everything is graded on a curve, by default, the runners are at the top. Congrats runners.
 
Oct 27, 2013
4,212
1,359
Status
Resident [Any Field]
But he does bring up the point that smart people have smart babies. There is no doubt that intellectual compatibility can be important to a good number of people. If smart people come together and have babies, they will instill the value of education/hard work.
That is true, but smart people are not necessarily rich, there are many rich people who are not smart.
 

terra330

5+ Year Member
Jan 7, 2012
415
312
Status
Medical Student
LOL. I know plenty of smart people who are not rich. Its not like my professors in school were driving Ferraris and owned palatial villas in the Mediterranean. These people are extremely intelligent.
In fairness, a lot of people think of "household income >$200k" as rich, and you're not going to be driving ferraris and owning villas on $200k
 
Last edited:

Foot Fetish

2+ Year Member
Jun 4, 2016
682
1,357
Status
Medical Student
In fairness, a lot of people think of "household income >$200k" as rich, and you're not going to be driving ferraris and owning villas on $200k
If you make >$200K per year, you're definitely affluent. That's nearly 4x the median household income in the U.S. You don't need to own a luxury sports car to qualify as rich.