Rick Kids and/or kids with highly educated parents do better on Step 1, why?

[Seth Joo]

In fairness, a lot of people think of "household income >$200k" as rich, and you're not going to be driving ferraris and owning villas on $200k

200k is not rich, its upper middle class in the US. I do not think even professors make that kind of money unless they teach at the upper elite universities.

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[NWwildcat2013]

200k is not rich, its upper middle class in the US. I do not think even professors make that kind of money.

Depends. If you have a spouse who doesn't work or makes way less and kids then it isnt. If you are single without kids that's a lot of money.

It's all relative.


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[terra330]

200k is not rich, its upper middle class in the US. I do not think even professors make that kind of money.

$200k is one of those figures where people who make significantly less than it will think of it as rich, while people who are in that ball park will consider themselves as well-off but not rich.

It does depend on the professor and where they're working and whatnot. Average is probably under $100k, but there will be some that can clear closer to $200k.

 

[Seth Joo]

$200k is one of those figures where people who make significantly less than it will think of it as rich, while people who are in that ball park will consider themselves as well-off but not rich.

It does depend on the professor and where they're working and whatnot. Average is probably under $100k, but there will be some that can clear closer to $200k.

A professor at some midtier university or college will probably make 80k to under 100k, its professors that work at elite schools that earn near 200k, I am talking about Harvard, MIT, Stanford, UCLA, those types of schools. Even UCLA I believe is lower than that.

People do not go into academics to get rich.

 

[terra330]

People do not go into academics to get rich.

Never said they do.

Also note that I did say household income. A professor + a second income could easily be in the 200k range (which IMO isn't rich, but many people, including the OP I suspect, would consider it rich)

 

[sancus3]

It depends on whether they have grants for research. I know professors at low tier (not in the top 100 universities according to US News) that make close to 200k. In some states their salaries are public record. They get paid a base salary from the university (~$45k) and then receive money from their grants ($100k/yr here for one grant, $20k/yr here for another grant, etc.). Some of them are rather money hungry and don't fit this altruistic paradigm you're setting up. On top of that, they use PhDs as slave labor (~40k/yr for 60-70hr/week), leading them on with promises of a full-time position that mysteriously disappears when they approach the end of their fellowship.

Money isn't a huge priority to everyone and there certainly are professors who teach or do research because it's their passion.

Like others have pointed out wealth is relative. My guess is someone with parents that net $200K/yr aren't exactly having everything handed to them on a silver platter. I doubt their parents can even afford to foot the bill for their medical tuition if they have siblings and live in a metropolitan area.

Children of the super-rich rarely consider medicine as a career of upward mobility. Medicine isn't a career that makes people super rich. For that you'd be in investment banking, finance, real-estate development, etc. So the only reason a kid from a super-rich family probably opts for medical school is because he/she loves the discipline of medicine and helping others, and with that kind of passion they're probably going to do well.

My guess is that most people opting for medicine are from middle to upper-middle class families. Some of these middle class kids erroneously see medicine as one of the careers that will make you rich, even though they'd make far more with less work in other careers. These middle class kids probably did have a leg-up over low socioeconomic status (SES) communities with crappy education systems and communities that don't value education. But then again, we're talking about kids from lower SES communities that made it to medical school so as group they probably had reasonable access to things necessary to get into medical school (e.g. good teachers, good curriculums, supportive families, etc.). So then again, if you're wondering why kids from higher SES families in medical school tend to do better than kids from low SES families, I don't think it's preposterous to think that maybe genetics are a factor and make things marginally easier. I certainly see kids in my class who grasp concepts faster than others. I see people who grasp concepts faster than myself and slower than myself and don't think it's crazy to think that ability may be an innate one.

A professor at some midtier university or college will probably make 80k to under 100k, its professors that work at elite schools that earn near 200k, I am talking about Harvard, MIT, Stanford, UCLA, those types of schools. Even UCLA I believe is lower than that.

People do not go into academics to get rich.

 

[Seth Joo]

It depends on whether they have grants for research. I know professors at low tier (not in the top 100 universities according to US News) that make close to 200k. In some states their salaries are public record. They get paid a base salary from the university (~$45k) and then receive money from their grants ($100k/yr here for one grant, $20k/yr here for another grant, etc.). Some of them are rather money hungry and don't fit this altruistic paradigm you're setting up. On top of that, they use PhDs as slave labor (~40k/yr for 60-70hr/week), leading them on with promises of a full-time position that mysteriously disappears when they approach the end of their fellowship.

Money isn't a huge priority to everyone and there certainly are professors who teach or do research because it's their passion.

Like others have pointed out wealth is relative. My guess is someone with parents that net $200K/yr aren't exactly having everything handed to them on a silver platter. I doubt their parents can even afford to foot the bill for their medical tuition if they have siblings and live in a metropolitan area.

Children of the super-rich rarely consider medicine as a career of upward mobility. Medicine isn't a career that makes people super rich. For that you'd be in investment banking, finance, real-estate development, etc. So the only reason a kid from a super-rich family probably opts for medical school is because he/she loves the discipline of medicine and helping others, and with that kind of passion they're probably going to do well.

My guess is that most people opting for medicine are from middle to upper-middle class families. Some of these middle class kids erroneously see medicine as one of the careers that will make you rich, even though they'd make far more with less work in other careers. These middle class kids probably did have a leg-up over low socioeconomic status (SES) communities with crappy education systems and communities that don't value education. But then again, we're talking about kids from lower SES communities that made it to medical school so as group they probably had reasonable access to things necessary to get into medical school (e.g. good teachers, good curriculums, supportive families, etc.). So then again, if you're wondering why kids from higher SES families in medical school tend to do better than kids from low SES families, I don't think it's preposterous to think that maybe genetics are a factor and make things marginally easier. I certainly see kids in my class who grasp concepts faster than others. I see people who grasp concepts faster than myself and slower than myself and don't think it's crazy to think that ability may be an innate one.

It depends upon the school, a large mid tier state university will probably pay better than a mid tier private college or university. Public universities disclose the salaries of their employees, but many private schools do the same as well, even those that do not, its not hard to find that information.

Not all academics are altruistic but most are not money minded types, if you are talking about administrators then that is a different beast.

You have to compare national vs regional vs local universities, national universities almost always pay the highest.

 

[psychhopefull2016]

deleted

 

[Foot Fetish]

Some of these middle class kids erroneously see medicine as one of the careers that will make you rich, even though they'd make far more with less work in other careers.

Pray tell, what are these mythical careers of which you speak? I'll drop out of medical school right now if such a career exists (PROTIP: it doesn't)...Stop talking out of your ass. No professional that you can realistically plan on becoming makes MUCH more than a physician with FAR LESS work. Do you even know any I-bankers? I know a few. They work long hours. Out the door by 7 am, back home around 7-8 pm. And these guys are directors. To even get to that place, they had to bust their butts as low level analysts, which required working as much as a resident does. Same goes for Big Law. To make partner at one of those big firms that pays the big bucks you gotta work like an animal for years. It's just as stressful as residency or worse. It's all equivalent. There's no such thing as a free lunch in this world. The only reason we like to think our job is harder is because people's lives hang in the balance sometimes. But at the end of the day, stress is stress, no matter what the source is.

You can deny it up and down, but medicine is still the #1 route of social mobility in this county. No other job pays this much ON AVERAGE. Indeed, it's the most risk-averse route to a GUARANTEED life of material comfort. Obviously you won't be collecting yachts, but you will be materially comfortable as an MD in the US, and if you deny this then you're just plain delusional, out of touch with the reality of life for the average American, or just an asshat...

Sure, some extremely rare positions pay a ton with relatively less work as compared to a physician, but it's unrealistic to plan on getting those. For example, there are computer programmers out there making $200,000 annually...but it would be a cruel joke to tell a kid that he could plan his life around snagging such a job. You'd have to be in the 99th percentile of programmers to get that job. In other words, working for Google, Microsoft, etc...whereas pediatricians, a.k.a. the lowest paid medical specialty, make that ON AVERAGE (per 2016 medscape physician compensation report)...same thing goes for real estate; sure, some of those guys make millions doing relatively little, but the chances of getting there are much much much much less than even the chances of matching into Derm....

No other career all but guarantees you a 200K annual salary...the vast majority of finance/econ majors will end up making less than six figures working for some random, irrelevant company. Everyone wants to become the wolf of Wallstreet but 99% end up as Joe Shmo...

 

[sancus3]

I have friends who worked as first year analysts at Goldman that made close to $100k/yr after their bonus at AGE 22-24! 2/3 I know that worked there left after 3 years for more lucrative opportunities. I can think of one person working at Mckenzie in consulting who made around $80k/yr fresh out of college. I can also think of a few people who went to work for JP Morgan and PWC who were making around $70-80k/yr fresh out of college. I know another who worked with some firm doing merges and acquisitions fresh out of college and now works for Citadel making ~200k/yr at age 27!

All these people worked pretty hard but they actually got paid for it. On the other side I know tons of medical students who did undergad, then a masters (-$40k), and are now in medical school studying/shadowing ~80hrs/week and taking out ~65k/yr to pay for tuition and living expenses. Then they'll go onto residency while their loans continue to accumulate interest and they make a measly 53k/yr working 70hrs/week.

To make it in medicine you have to work your tail off, sacrifice, do extra-curricular activities, and then woo over PDs and physicians on rotations. It's not enough to just be smart, you're expected to have social competency too. If you can do all this well, you can sure as hell climb the corporate ladder.

In medicine you hit a ceiling of earning potential around 200-700k/yr. To be in the 1%, you only need a family income >300k/yr. So yeah a lot of physicians make that, but they also have $1/2 million of debt, plus years of lost earring potential and living in a far from luxurious lifestyle. The majority of people in the 1% are executives, finance, management. These people started off making good money out of college living a far superior lifestyle to yours (nicer apartment, nicer car, better restaurants, better food, better vacations) because they were getting paid in their 20s while you were accumulating debt. Then the ones who are really smart and have social competency are able to climb the ladder or branch off to other more lucrative start-ups or opportunities. They also don't have the glass ceiling that doctors hit. So they can use their expertise in finance, economics, management to launch start-ups or better invest their money. They don't have the same ceiling that doctors do.

If you look at who composes the top 0.1% I highly doubt you will find many doctors. And it's not till that point where I think all financial worries melt away and you experience a quality of life that far exceeds the people making $300k.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...sachs-said-to-raise-junior-staff-salaries-20-

Pray tell, what are these mythical careers of which you speak? I'll drop out of medical school right now if such a career exists (PROTIP: it doesn't)...Stop talking out of your ass. No professional that you can realistically plan on becoming makes MUCH more than a physician with FAR LESS work. Do you even know any I-bankers? I know a few. They work long hours. Out the door by 7 am, back home around 7-8 pm. And these guys are directors. To even get to that place, they had to bust their butts as low level analysts, which required working as much as a resident does. Same goes for Big Law. To make partner at one of those big firms that pays the big bucks you gotta work like an animal for years. It's just as stressful as residency or worse. It's all equivalent. There's no such thing as a free lunch in this world. The only reason we like to think our job is harder is because people's lives hang in the balance sometimes. But at the end of the day, stress is stress, no matter what the source is.

You can deny it up and down, but medicine is still the #1 route of social mobility in this county. No other job pays this much ON AVERAGE. Indeed, it's the most risk-averse route to a GUARANTEED life of material comfort. Obviously you won't be collecting yachts, but you will be materially comfortable as an MD in the US, and if you deny this then you're just plain delusional, out of touch with the reality of life for the average American, or just an asshat...

Sure, some extremely rare positions pay a ton with relatively less work as compared to a physician, but it's unrealistic to plan on getting those. For example, there are computer programmers out there making $200,000 annually...but it would be a cruel joke to tell a kid that he could plan his life around snagging such a job. You'd have to be in the 99th percentile of programmers to get that job. In other words, working for Google, Microsoft, etc...whereas pediatricians, a.k.a. the lowest paid medical specialty, make that ON AVERAGE (per 2016 medscape physician compensation report)...same thing goes for real estate; sure, some of those guys make millions doing relatively little, but the chances of getting there are much much much much less than even the chances of matching into Derm....

No other career all but guarantees you a 200K annual salary...the vast majority of finance/econ majors will end up making less than six figures working for some random, irrelevant company. Everyone wants to become the wolf of Wallstreet but 99% end up as Joe Shmo...

 

[NotYou20]

My guess is that most people opting for medicine are from middle to upper-middle class families. Some of these middle class kids erroneously see medicine as one of the careers that will make you rich, even though they'd make far more with less work in other careers. These middle class kids probably did have a leg-up over low socioeconomic status (SES) communities with crappy education systems and communities that don't value education. But then again, we're talking about kids from lower SES communities that made it to medical school so as group they probably had reasonable access to things necessary to get into medical school (e.g. good teachers, good curriculums, supportive families, etc.). So then again, if you're wondering why kids from higher SES families in medical school tend to do better than kids from low SES families, I don't think it's preposterous to think that maybe genetics are a factor and make things marginally easier. I certainly see kids in my class who grasp concepts faster than others. I see people who grasp concepts faster than myself and slower than myself and don't think it's crazy to think that ability may be an innate one.

It seems to me that at my school actually middle class kids are pretty significantly outnumbered by the "upper middle." Same story as undergrad.

 

[BadgerBadger]

Seriously, who cares about someone else's financial status? Once in medical school, you're all on the same level playing field. Whether daddy is paying for med school of you're taking out your own loans, you're in the same situation and have the power to control your own destiny. Some people are blessed financial stability, life is not fair. But YOU have the power to make the most of your time in medical school.

Wait a minute. Once you're in medical school, rich/poor kids still aren't on the same level playing field. I don't know how much your school shells out for finaid, but mine only allows for you to basically not be homeless and definitely isn't enough for how much I see many of my classmates spending.

If your parents pay for your phone, car, insurance(s), grocery bill, housing, etc., you really don't have to worry about ANYTHING but school. That is a huge benefit compared to those students cutting coupons and comparison shopping trying to save a few dollars here and there because they have to keep their food budget low in order to cover other things. Housing too. There's a large difference between having a luxury apartment compared to a worse apartment as far as time spent dealing with inconveniences and keeping the place up. And you can't just "get a nicer place." Because again, loans are finite if you're paying 100% of your costs on your own. You literally don't have enough for everything, as many medical students with rich parents do.

 

[coldcase331]

Wait a minute. Once you're in medical school, rich/poor kids still aren't on the same level playing field. I don't know how much your school shells out for finaid, but mine only allows for you to basically not be homeless and definitely isn't enough for how much I see many of my classmates spending.

If your parents pay for your phone, car, insurance(s), grocery bill, housing, etc., you really don't have to worry about ANYTHING but school. That is a huge benefit compared to those students cutting coupons and comparison shopping trying to save a few dollars here and there because they have to keep their food budget low in order to cover other things. Housing too. There's a large difference between having a luxury apartment compared to a worse apartment as far as time spent dealing with inconveniences and keeping the place up. And you can't just "get a nicer place." Because again, loans are finite if you're paying 100% of your costs on your own. You literally don't have enough for everything, as many medical students with rich parents do.

Well my school gave out the same max amount to everyone, enough to cover living expenses, rent, tuition. Thought all schools did this


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[giantswing]

The lesson that can be learned here is that life isn't fair, and that there will always be someone with more than you. There will be plenty more people with less.

**my parents aren't doctors, aren't wealthy, and I took loans out for medical school

 

[psychhopefull2016]

Wait a minute. Once you're in medical school, rich/poor kids still aren't on the same level playing field. I don't know how much your school shells out for finaid, but mine only allows for you to basically not be homeless and definitely isn't enough for how much I see many of my classmates spending.

If your parents pay for your phone, car, insurance(s), grocery bill, housing, etc., you really don't have to worry about ANYTHING but school. That is a huge benefit compared to those students cutting coupons and comparison shopping trying to save a few dollars here and there because they have to keep their food budget low in order to cover other things. Housing too. There's a large difference between having a luxury apartment compared to a worse apartment as far as time spent dealing with inconveniences and keeping the place up. And you can't just "get a nicer place." Because again, loans are finite if you're paying 100% of your costs on your own. You literally don't have enough for everything, as many medical students with rich parents do.

I was very much one of the lucky ones and my parents were paying for my phone bill and health/car insurance for the first 3 years of med school. I then got married and now I'm paying for them together with my husband who doesn't make much and it makes a massive difference in my stress level knowing that my loans have to pay for that much more especially with 4th year interview costs looming and I gained a lot of new respect for those who have not had any of that stuff the whole time. And I am still quite lucky to get a bag of groceries dropped off from time to time and my parents buying my interview suit. But that financial stress makes a massive difference

 

[Moose A Moose]

They're able to get to the library faster than the other kids because Daddy bought them a fast BMW. Duh.

 

[chipwhitley]

Sure, some extremely rare positions pay a ton with relatively less work as compared to a physician, but it's unrealistic to plan on getting those. For example, there are computer programmers out there making $200,000 annually...but it would be a cruel joke to tell a kid that he could plan his life around snagging such a job. You'd have to be in the 99th percentile of programmers to get that job. In other words, working for Google, Microsoft, etc...whereas pediatricians, a.k.a. the lowest paid medical specialty, make that ON AVERAGE (per 2016 medscape physician compensation report)...same thing goes for real estate; sure, some of those guys make millions doing relatively little, but the chances of getting there are much much much much less than even the chances of matching into Derm....

I think it would be a cruel joke to tell a kid he can plan his life around becoming a doctor, given how competitive getting into a US med school is. You're forgetting that a lot of people fail to even make it to med school in the first place, and even more screen themselves out before even applying. Many people fail out of med school too, especially in the Caribbean. If you looked at every person who ever wanted to be a doctor and then tracked them to see how many actually make it all the way through, the numbers would be quite similar to the other professions you mentioned. The difference is that medicine has a huge barrier to entry, yet anyone can be a computer programmer with as little as a 12-week 'bootcamp' course, and getting a real estate license isn't exactly hard either (it's a 45 hour course in my state).

You really can't compare the average when fields have vastly different barriers of entry. If computer programming changed the rules so only Google or Microsoft-worthy people were allowed to work in the field, their average would be $200k as well.

 

[BadgerBadger]

Well my school gave out the same max amount to everyone, enough to cover living expenses, rent, tuition. Thought all schools did this


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They do. I'm not saying that they give more $$$ to those whose parents earn more. But the % of students who spend more than what the school budgets for COA to make their lives more comfortable is huge. My school budgets ~$700 for rent and utilites, $250 for food (ALL food - going out, bars, etc., not just groceries), $1900/yr for car maintenance + insurance, and $2,500/yr for all other miscellaneous expenses. Which includes all your shopping, phone bill, health insurance, and day-to-day expenses.

See here for proof.

First off, most med students spend more than $250 in food. A meal out costs ~$15-20. Let's use $15 as a conservative estimate, although this could be much higher. If you go out 3x/week as many students do, that will add up to $180 for the month. Looks like if you want to keep up with your well-to-do classmates, you're gounna have to get by with $70 for your remaining meals for the month. Also note this doesn't include going out to coffee shops.

Now let's look at housing. I'm using this 2015 MCW med student living guide as reference.
Typical student lives in Wauwatosa area. Lives in a 2 bdrm apartment. In the "popular apartment complexes" section, let's look at some of the 2 bdrm prices that I can find easily.

Wilshire Manor- can't find prices
The Overlook- "Monthly rent starting at $1425"
The Enclave- cheapest is $1,610, so $805 per person.
The Reserve at Wauwatosa Village- cheapest is $1497, so $748.50/person
Serafino Square Apartments- can't find prices
Bluemound Village Apartments- "start at $885 for 2bdrm/1 bath" as per their craigslist post. This one is reasonable.

Add on ~100 for utilities, and the "most popular" medical student apartments+utilities are way past $700/mo.


Personal expenses. I'll wager $60 for a phone plan, $45 for basic internet (basically a necessity), and $30 for basic hygiene (more if you're a woman). That's $145 for bare-bones living. Comes out to $1,740/yr. You have $760 for everything else that comes up over the year, or $64/mo. That's your clothing, flying-to-interviews, shopping, everything else budget.

You're also screwed if your parents don't have health insurance. Which you should have because you probably have a nutritional deficiency from living off of $70/mo for groceries. Okay, that's a hyperbole.

I'm not arguing that it's not fair that med students largely fund their non-tuition expenses via their parents. But this was just to show people that it's HARD coming from a low SES and doing well in med school because you're not afforded many of the benefits that better off students have.

And using the "take out loans, everyone else does" argument works for tuition, but not living expenses. If you try to live exclusively off loans, you are living far below the average med student, probably in the lowest 2-5% of med students.

 

[TedStark]

I come from a low SES and am taking out loans. I don't stress about it because money isn't real, and if I need more I can just borrow more.

 

[Lexington2012]

There is a correlation between IQ and income.

 

[psychhopefull2016]

I come from a low SES and am taking out loans. I don't stress about it because money isn't real, and if I need more I can just borrow more.

You don't have a loan cap? We do? It is about 24k/year for living expenses/step exams/travel for interviews/ insurance etc.

 

[Petrichor1]

Early childhood development is really important and lasts a lifetime. Rich kids tend to have the best situation then and it builds on itself. I'd also wager that rich kids are a tad smarter on average. Maybe that's even among the med student population, maybe not.

Nope, having tutored many rich kids that's lol. They are good at copying and utilizing outside ideas to their advantage, that's for sure. I think that poverty and family background are impt to assess together rather than clumping things up like it has become a habit for our educated population. If a kid with educated parents is poor, there is a lot of potential because of home values. Counter that with a first gen who has family that doesn't understand the educational paradigm but understands its value but maybe not to the extent needed. Both kids have a lot to prove because they know educational value but not necessarily have the resources or clear motivation to the innate skills that often provide societal success and are developed and honed in early childhood. Rich people know that and that is why they start getting tutors the minute their child starts doing badly in third grade. But regardless, a lot of times hard work trumps intelligence and it is only during school that the academic merit ensues. Weirdly though the real world may not always attest to intelligence. So just being a doctor in any field is good enough. The real test of life awaits when we are employed and making a difference beyond pen and paper.

 

[giantswing]

I'm already seeing this as the majority of the M1 repeaters are URM. They're all smart but they got in with lower scores and don't have an efficient studying pattern or mentality.

The repeaters of my year were almost exclusively ORM females.

 

[Dr. Janitor]

"Rick" kids......

 

[TedStark]

You don't have a loan cap? We do? It is about 24k/year for living expenses/step exams/travel for interviews/ insurance etc.

There's always a way to get more money. Some schools have special loan funds set up. We can borrow quite a bit extra for interviewing during fourth year. Hell if you're you're going into primary care you can get stipends as a student. I'm sure some banks would love to refinance you with additional loans if you passed your boards. There's always the military. Obviously none of these options are a "win" most of the time, but medical students are far from starving.

 

[psychhopefull2016]

There's always a way to get more money. Some schools have special loan funds set up, we can borrow quite a bit extra for interviewing during fourth year. Hell if you're you're going into primary care you can stipends as a student. I'm sure some banks would love to refinance you with additional loans if you passed your boards. There's always the military. Obviously all of these options aren't a "win" most of the time, but Medical students are far from starving.

I'm ok myself because my husband is making like 20k/year and we have some money left from our wedding and my parents would help if needed but I honestly didn't know I could get more from the school.

 

[TedStark]

I'm ok myself because my husband is making like 20k/year and we have some money left from our wedding and my parents would help if needed but I honestly didn't know I could get more from the school.

Just ask and see. Mine has an emergency fund.

 

[FiveOClock]

If you make >$200K per year, you're definitely affluent. That's nearly 4x the median household income in the U.S. You don't need to own a luxury sports car to qualify as rich.

That is not functionally affluent. Someone making 200k with a couple of kids do not live a cushy lifestyle, especially in most cities. 500k+ would be a more reasonable definition of "rich." If you can't afford to join a country club, then you're not rich.

 

[BadgerBadger]

That is not functionally affluent. Someone making 200k with a couple of kids do not live a cushy lifestyle, especially in most cities. 500k+ would be a more reasonable definition of "rich." If you can't afford to join a country club, then you're not rich.

If your household makes 200k, you're in the 94.38th percentile. How is that not cushy? 500k is in the top 99.8 percentile. I would say that's "super wealthy" rather than rich.

 

[FiveOClock]

If your household makes 200k, you're in the 94.38th percentile. How is that not cushy? 500k is in the top 99.8 percentile. I would say that's "super wealthy" rather than rich.

Ah because you're forgetting that there are people that have a lot of money but not a lot of income, i.e. a huge chunk of the upper class. So you could make 0$ a year and be ultra wealthy which is why people making 500k a year are no where close to being in the 1% for wealth, just income.

Also, citing this blog is the equivalent of citing nothing.

 

[chipwhitley]

If your household makes 200k, you're in the 94.38th percentile. How is that not cushy? 500k is in the top 99.8 percentile. I would say that's "super wealthy" rather than rich.

I mean, it's all relative. If you live in San Francisco Bay Area, you can barely afford a house on a household income of 200k. Doesn't seem "super wealthy" or even cushy to me.

 

[benjamin94559]

They do. I'm not saying that they give more $$$ to those whose parents earn more. But the % of students who spend more than what the school budgets for COA to make their lives more comfortable is huge. My school budgets ~$700 for rent and utilites, $250 for food (ALL food - going out, bars, etc., not just groceries), $1900/yr for car maintenance + insurance, and $2,500/yr for all other miscellaneous expenses. Which includes all your shopping, phone bill, health insurance, and day-to-day expenses.

See here for proof.

First off, most med students spend more than $250 in food. A meal out costs ~$15-20. Let's use $15 as a conservative estimate, although this could be much higher. If you go out 3x/week as many students do, that will add up to $180 for the month. Looks like if you want to keep up with your well-to-do classmates, you're gounna have to get by with $70 for your remaining meals for the month. Also note this doesn't include going out to coffee shops.

Gotta go on that chipotle diet to save money. Only 7 dollars a meal and probably has the calories to count as 2.

 

[chipwhitley]

Lol @ living in the bay area. Crowded, expensive, noisy, crappy scenery, the 49er syndrome affecting women...

Yet so many people want to be there!

 

[tennischamp822]

.

 

[ese2]

If your household makes 200k, you're in the 94.38th percentile. How is that not cushy? 500k is in the top 99.8 percentile. I would say that's "super wealthy" rather than rich.

There are so many other factors besides that. What if you have 3 students and live in the north shore or other expensive places to live? Then you are not rich by most people's standards. Affluent maybe, but not rich.

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[trepon]

I come from lower SES but with above average stats for my medical school. Money was a big issue at first in medical school. I constantly worried about it. I didn't go out as often, didn't buy as many resources like qbanks as I should have, and was just more stressed. I was passing but not doing as well as my stats would predict

I recall a classmate saying it was impossible not to survive off the loan amount our school gave us. This classmate was covered under their parents health insurance, had their phone bills paid for, and had a much nicer car they didn't have to make payments on. Their expenses were thousands less than mine on the same amount of loan money.

I got married in medical school and my spouse supports me now. I am doing much better in school and am now doing better than my stats would have predicted.

I have qbanks, can afford little destressors like going out, and just worry a lot less about money.

Money mattered a lot in my performance in med school.

 

[Mad Jack]

This is not uncontroversial, for strong scientific reasons as well as for moral reasons, particularly when notions like "smarter babies"--genetic inheritance of intelligence--has had a fraught and devastating legacy throughout human history. That doesn't mean it can't be talked about, but at least the discussion needs to be informed by lots of rigorous scientific data and careful reasoning.

A great book on this topic is Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man." A modern classic of anthropology. You might disagree with its conclusions, which is fine, but 1) it's incredibly well written, 2) it conveys the perils of confusing data with measures (which happens often in medicine, even on the wards, even to the administrators, even when it comes to things like sepsis, nevermind class), and 3) at least it starts the conversation, a conversation you can continue to have with your colleagues throughout your medical career, regardless of what you ultimately conclude.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/06/intelligence-is-still-highly-heritable/#.V8GTV3TD_qB

This blog says everything I would say about the issue, but with sources and stuff, so I'm just linking to it rather than paraphrasing. Intelligence is heritable, but the trouble is it is the result of likely thousands of loci so we're not sure exactly how clustered intelligence genes are amongst populations and what percent of intelligence is heritable. Intelligence is like diabetes or obesity- a series of genes work with the environment to come up with an outcome, but that outcome is still being influenced by genes. Some people will never be rocket scientists or astronauts- they just don't have the brains for it no matter how hard they try. If genes aren't determining that, what do you postulate is? And why do you so strongly want to believe that everything from diabetes to sports potential to height to cancer propensity can be inherited, but intelligence is just a blanket characteristic all human beings possess independent of genes?

 

[BadgerBadger]

I recall a classmate saying it was impossible not to survive off the loan amount our school gave us. This classmate was covered under their parents health insurance, had their phone bills paid for, and had a much nicer car they didn't have to make payments on. Their expenses were thousands less than mine on the same amount of loan money.

This is something I see often too.
"My parents aren't supporting me in school" = "My parents aren't paying my tuition / rent and buy me groceries, but still pay for my car/health/life insurance, as well as my $80 unlimited data cell phone bill, my car payment, and also send me money when I charge too much on my credit card from time to time."

 

[lymphocyte]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/06/intelligence-is-still-highly-heritable/#.V8GTV3TD_qB

This blog says everything I would say about the issue, but with sources and stuff, so I'm just linking to it rather than paraphrasing. Intelligence is heritable, but the trouble is it is the result of likely thousands of loci so we're not sure exactly how clustered intelligence genes are amongst populations and what percent of intelligence is heritable. Intelligence is like diabetes or obesity- a series of genes work with the environment to come up with an outcome, but that outcome is still being influenced by genes. Some people will never be rocket scientists or astronauts- they just don't have the brains for it no matter how hard they try. If genes aren't determining that, what do you postulate is? And why do you so strongly want to believe that everything from diabetes to sports potential to height to cancer propensity can be inherited, but intelligence is just a blanket characteristic all human beings possess independent of genes?

Did you read the study? Trawling across 2,000,000 SNPs in 125,000 people revealed a few SNPs that seemed to explain less than 3 months worth of educational attainment (NB: nothing to do with "intelligence") across 12+ years. One summer. We have zero clue about the causal effects of those SNPs (if they indeed are causal and not merely associative), so they might impact on things like health just as much as anything else. There's a lot of speculation in that blog post, as there tends to be when the actual scientists are disciplined and methodologically careful.

I don't disagree that "outcomes are influenced by genes." (Who would think otherwise?) I strongly disagree that there's a thing called "intelligence" (or any psychometric g-like factor) which is reifiable, unitary, measurable, inheritable, and has any kind of psychological significance beyond performance on a select battery of tests of questionable validity.

If you disagree with any or all, that's okay--like I said, this topic is not uncontroversial--but we have to be clear about 1) what the science actually says, 2) the limitations of the science, and 3) what, exactly, we're disagreeing about. And any discussion of intelligence, especially IQ, needs to have some mention of principal component analysis, because people often conflate data with measures, as if it were the measures that needed explaining in the first place.

Regarding astronauts and rocket scientists. I'm neither, and I have no idea what it takes, but I'd imagine people vastly overestimate the role of "intelligence" (probably a whole pile of known and unknown cognitive abilities, few of which are actually inheritable to a meaningful extent) and give short shrift to behavioural factors like grit, perseverance, collegiality, etc. (which might also have a genetic component).

 

[Michael_Scott]

When you have the resources, you learn earlier how to learn.

Work ethic will cut across all demographics.

agree to a certain extent but it's easier said then done....as a person who was not a "rich kid", I understand the struggles I came across compared to my peers who had more privileges and resources (ex: parents who were doctors and provided them with many resources)...it takes more time and energy for those who don't have the same resources to climb the ladder, not saying that this is an excuse but also don't want to be completely oblivious to the fact...at the end of the day, I am content at how far I came along with peers who had more resources.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/westlake-grad-nets-100k-st-davids-foundation-schol/nr6rB/

 

[FranzLO]

I was low SES also, but I worked hard and I'm smart, like all of us. I will make more as a resident than my parents did. My family is full of smart people but while IQ may correlate with income, circumstances of birth are what they are. I am the first person in my family to graduate college. Certain advantages will always be there for people with money, connections, etc. It cannot be denied. However, I don't use it as an excuse for myself and I also don't judge those with more than me, since I can't pretend I know how hard they work or their motivations. Ultimately, we are ending up in similar places. I broke the chain, and maybe my kids, grandkids, and on will be judged for being wealthy. Oh well.

 

[751866]

If you make >$200K per year, you're definitely affluent. That's nearly 4x the median household income in the U.S. You don't need to own a luxury sports car to qualify as rich.

So you're defining rich as what someone makes, rather than what they have in net assets (equity)? Would you say Larry Ellison (or any other super-rich person) is poor or non-affluent if he decided to take 1 dollar as his total compensation (salary/bonus/benefits) for several years?
Making a ton of money and accumulating wealth are different things...

Having a cushy life is also much different than you think...Someone making 250k as the only household income to support 3 kids and a spouse in a reasonably populated suburban area is much less cushy than someone else with no children and no spouse to support in the same geographic location...

 

[751866]

Did you read the study? Trawling across 2,000,000 SNPs in 125,000 people revealed a few SNPs that seemed to explain less than 3 months worth of educational attainment (NB: nothing to do with "intelligence") across 12+ years. One summer. We have zero clue about the causal effects of those SNPs (if they indeed are causal and not merely associative), so they might impact on things like health just as much as anything else. There's a lot of speculation in that blog post, as there tends to be when the actual scientists are disciplined and methodologically careful.

Some very good points. People need to be more critical of what they're reading, but it would probably help if the pre-med and medical education systems put an increased emphasis on statistics and probability related (at least to) medical and public health research (especially to understand all the caveats associated with data mining and other common studies in these areas).
...

If you disagree with any or all, that's okay--like I said, this topic is not uncontroversial--but we have to be clear about 1) what the science actually says, 2) the limitations of the science, and 3) what, exactly, we're disagreeing about. And any discussion of intelligence, especially IQ, needs to have some mention of principal component analysis, because people often conflate data with measures, as if it were the measures that needed explaining in the first place.

This primarily rests on the background of those consuming research-- even doing lots of research (labs, studies) doesn't mean someone will actually know how to think critically about (or understand) an analysis and the conclusions that were drawn (i.e. do they necessarily follow, was the methodology appropriate, and so on...). (PCA is probably lost on 99% of anyone reading, but you do have a very good point in bringing it up.)

 

[darklabel]

They still have $80 unlimited cell phone plans? What a waste. I never get close to the 2 gb/month I have under my $25/month plan.

I think the people who got grandfathered into the AT&T plan of unlimited for 35$ a month can't be beat. I use around 5 gigs a month but thats because I use Google Maps and internet radio liberally.

 

[username456789]

The repeaters of my year were almost exclusively ORM females.

Mine were ~4/5 black I believe.

 

[Dires]

I'm sure there are tons of exceptions but isn't intelligence a huge determinant in upward mobility and a highly heritable trait? Maybe their parents are more successful because they're bright, and they're predisposed to learn material quicker because their parents gave them better genes. I'm sure all sorts of psychosocial factors are at play too but we're not all created equal.

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v20/n1/full/mp2014105a.html

How dare you...

I am so triggered.

 

[fancymylotus]

I think the people who got grandfathered into the AT&T plan of unlimited for 35$ a month can't be beat. I use around 5 gigs a month but thats because I use Google Maps and internet radio liberally.

We are never giving up our att family plan for this exact reason


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[VCorp]

When I was growing up I didn't have much money and lived in a podunk town with a subpar school system. At the time my parents did not have college degrees, but they instilled a strong work ethic in me.

I think it has been an uphill battle to be aware of what I needed to do at each step in order to get to medical school. Rich kids can afford better preparation at every step of the game and its easy for them to shadow or get clinically relevant ECs if their parents have connections. An example is that I didn't even know studying for the SAT was a thing people did. I just showed up one day and took it. It turned out well and I went to a good undergrad, but many other people at my high school had potential that could have been brought out with just a bit of preparation that is normal in other parts of the country. Without parental connections, I also had to cold call physicians for things like shadowing or to get clinical experience. Over the years I think it develops a certain strength and perseverance.

In medical school, I was frustrated by how rich my classmates were and how, although they think they had a hard road to medical school, it really fell into their laps compared to many other people who try to walk the same path. When asked where I grew up I would frequently be teased, and while many passed it off as a joke but I knew that there was truth in it. There is a very pervasive social/geographic elitism in medical school and at first it made me mad, but now Im just tired of it. If you grew up somewhere between the narrow strips of land on the coasts then you probably drove your tractor to a one room school house where you had lectures on creationism. Hyperbole obviously, but there are many frustrating and offensive assumptions that are made. I was disappointed to find that attendings are some of the worst offenders. Its exhausting and I usually avoid telling people where I am from.

All of this resulted in me having a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I studied harder than I ever had which resulted in me honoring every course in MS1 and 2 and scoring in the 100th percentile on Step 1. Looking back I think a lot of my drive was a desire to prove myself and show people that just because you grow up in a backwater town in a flyover state and didn't go to Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you can't be the best student in your medical school class. Sometimes I marvel at how many brilliant people with untapped potential are probably in towns like where I grew up across the country, but they never used that potential for silly reasons. Reasons such as not knowing they should study for the SAT, needing to work a job or two in high school, or having home issues that detracted from school performance.

I write all of this to say that I can absolutely see how family income can make someone better prepared. Step 1 prep isn't cheap and if my parents chipped in I would feel more free to experiment with different resources or to use them for longer periods of time. Better schools at every stage, more money to invest in resources, networking/connections for ECs all adds up. High socioeconomic status also means you are more likely to have family members (siblings, cousins, etc.) and friends in medical school who can advise you on how and when to prepare for things. Those of us blazing the path for the first time need a combination of resourcefulness and grit to achieve the same scores.

This post has made me realized that I'm a huge waste of a human being and I should've been aborted, instead of being given the chance to become a physician. Great job on making it to the top. I'd certainly buy you a beer if I knew who you were.