RO may have a role in this COVID crisis, but we need a clinical trial.....

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There is likely some person receiving radiotherapy while being intubated at any given day/week in the US (think Pediatric RT), and so I would think there is adequate experience in handling intubated patients, albeit concentrated in larger tertiary hospital sites. The concern for treating mechanically ventilated patient is very reasonable but moot, as one can start the trial with unvented pts with primary endpoint of freedom of progression to vent. I absolutely agree that trying to treat ventilated patients at the start would be too challenging, and I, as a proponent of this trial, would add that it may be a different pathophysiology that I am unsure LD IR can deal with. By that point, the lung has so much exudative gunk the mechanism of recovery is to clear up the gunk. And I don't know of any data that shows RT can accelerate clearance of such gunk. Best is a "preVent" trial, as Minesh M. implied.

The resistance to such trial appears to be more logistical rather than scientific. I'm hopeful that the brilliant minds are assessing the feasibility of the logistics. Certainly if it is not feasible and safe, such trial should not be pursued. But lets just say it is deemed feasible, would you naysayers be open to such trial?

And one thing the trialists should consider is using mobile CT scanners in additional to linacs..

Agree with you on many points

Big difference bw Peds intubation is that is a controlled and planned event for RT

COVID pts are being intubated to prevent death soon

i have many more thoughts on fixing practicality but I’m not part of the trial

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There is likely some person receiving radiotherapy while being intubated at any given day/week in the US (think Pediatric RT), and so I would think there is adequate experience in handling intubated patients, albeit concentrated in larger tertiary hospital sites. The concern for treating mechanically ventilated patient is very reasonable but moot, as one can start the trial with unvented pts with primary endpoint of freedom of progression to vent. I absolutely agree that trying to treat ventilated patients at the start would be too challenging, and I, as a proponent of this trial, would add that it may be a different pathophysiology that I am unsure LD IR can deal with. By that point, the lung has so much exudative gunk the mechanism of recovery is to clear up the gunk. And I don't know of any data that shows RT can accelerate clearance of such gunk. Best is a "preVent" trial, as Minesh M. implied.

The resistance to such trial appears to be more logistical rather than scientific. I'm hopeful that the brilliant minds are assessing the feasibility of the logistics. Certainly if it is not feasible and safe, such trial should not be pursued. But lets just say it is deemed feasible, would you naysayers be open to such trial?

And one thing the trialists should consider is using mobile CT scanners in additional to linacs..

I agree that preVent is better and using fluoro (can be covered, cleaned, and not have much contact with a patient such as need for a table). There is only 1 staff member who will be exposed (but likely already exposed to many of these types of patients) and with little PPE consumption.

I still would not participate in the trial, but with the appropriate logistical restrictions it is very possible. My other issue is, for something I am very skeptical about, a study that will be underpowered from the get go is not worth it. Is there a randomization with sham XRT? Then def. NOT worth it right now. Also, the study on the LINAC, must capture spread to ancillary staff and patients with resultant negative effects including delays in care, staff compensation, COVID infections + consumption of PPE etc.. The harm we fear is not just for the patient on this and not sure the study will be looking at this most vital endpoint.
 
I know it's a big logistical issue, but what if this was THEE life saving treatment for even 20% of intubated people? Not saying it is or isn't. Probably worth trying.
 
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By all means conduct the study and let us know how it goes. You have my support and thank you for your service and God speed!
 
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I know it's a big logistical issue, but what if this was a life saving treatment for even 20% of intubated people?

Hope is a hell of a drug ;)

I hope it works. I just think there is such a force of movement from our field due to desperation.

It's okay to hold the horses and think before acting :p
 
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OK how many of you have actually treated an intubated patient on a LINAC? I have multiple times, because we do crazy stuff like that in my cancer centre (stage III lungs, mediastinal lymphomas, etc). It is an absolute logistical nightmare, you're talking ICU teams down in the hallway, ICU nurses, respiratory therapists all nearby, All sorts of alarms and drips, etc. The terrible stress of a code blue and some of you can barely find where to take a pulse.

Ok so say you get all this done, logistical nightmare and all. Could it work? certainly. I don't think it is as "nutty" as people think it is. Part of the reason why our field is in this situation is because so many people are scared to death to ever stick their neck out in our field. Someone decided to treat a heart and perhaps we may gain a much greater role in refractory tachyarrhythmias. Someone decided to treat people with "crazy" high dose or XRT, SBRT, to central structures, a few people died, and we pioneered lung SBRT. It takes people with balls to move our field forwards and we badly need more of these people in our field. Eli gladstein used to rail against IMRT as "crazy" and "nutty".

I totally see arguments on how it may work or how it may not work. Things are a lot more complicated than "anti-inflammatory". There is a lot of evidence steroids may actually be harmful to COVID patients. Anti-IL6 Toclizumab data---inconclusive. Plaquenil---Inconclusive. People are not just dying from inflammation, this virus is causing massive coagulation issues and clots, attacking heart tissue and kidney tissue, causing fulminant hepatitis, anosmia and ageusia, a child just died of encephalitis from it, etc etc. We really don't have anything that is a slam dunk. We are throwing anything at it. So does it make sense to try this? maybe or maybe not. As Trump likes to say, "what do you have to lose?" and "we will see what happens"

Arthur Schopenhauer, once said, “All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
 
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To me it's not scientifically unfounded, it's an issue of logistics, and the inherent risk to staff for an experimental treatment.

I would mandate that we have radiation therapist consent if I was to open a trial like this. The risk of bodily harm to the person treating the patient is not negligible.

The time and resources for treating a non-intubated COVID-19+ patient are significant. The time and resources of treating an intubated patient historically is significant, but for different reasons (not PPE donning/doffing). I imagine that combining the two will lead to long times in the department, in a patient population that has capability of rapid decompensation, for an experimental view on something that may have a marginal benefit on clinical outcomes.

If people want to do it, more power to them, but I see no reason to put my institution's staff at risk for the sake of academic publishing.
 
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I mean, we have some lower quality clinical evidence that radiation improves outcomes in some with viral pneumonia. I get it's old but I don't think that's disqualifying. We started giving everyone Plaquenil based on less. I'd argue Plaquenil is more toxic that 50-100cGy of radiation.
 
I mean, we have some lower quality clinical evidence that radiation improves outcomes in some with viral pneumonia. I get it's old but I don't think that's disqualifying. We started giving everyone Plaquenil based on less. I'd argue Plaquenil is more toxic that 50-100cGy of radiation.

Plaquenil does not put departmental staff at risk of contracting the disease, who otherwise would not be at risk. This same statement can be said for any of the anti-virals being tested.
 
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I think we are minimizing the risk to the staff. The PI of this study has no "skin the game" but those delivering the treatment certainly do. I don't know the ethics of putting at risk those who have no possibility of benefit. Seems unwise.
 
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I gotcha and completely understand. I'd be the first to say "no" if some admin tried to stick me in an ICU to treat COVID patients, mainly because I'd have no capacity to actually help. IF (huge if) radiation does help, I think you have to have a ride or die attitude about it. You also need appropriate PPE.
 
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agree that downside is low to patient, and why not pull out all the stops on ventilated patient given poor prognosis. But how would you control for other medical therapy. Trial should not be done if it limits patients access to gilead or any other drug or convalescent serum.
Absolutely agree. Which is why "all available" other therapy (outside of a trial) should be given to all patients in the trial, irrelevant if they are irradiated or not. Do you get Remdisevir only on trial in the US?
 
Absolutely agree. Which is why "all available" other therapy (outside of a trial) should be given to all patients in the trial, irrelevant if they are irradiated or not. Do you get Remdisevir only on trial in the US?
Thought i heard "compassionate use" also being done in US?
 
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Are you fing kidding me? Give hypofxn b/c of COVID? Thank you for summarizing the Roa and Malmstrom data that any competent rad onc already knows

Indeed.

So far, we have only been giving HypoFx (15 x 2.66 Gy) to patients that were old (>65 yo) or frail (PS >1).
If they were MGMT-non-methylated it was an additional reason to give the 60yo, PS1 patient also HypoFx.

We have also given 10 x 3.5 Gy or 5 x 5 Gy in a few cases, although when you get down to doses like that, you start questioning why you are irradiating at all...

Today, we had 2 GBM patients coming in, both of them not old and super fit, yet we opted not to give them 30 x 2 Gy but rather 20 x 2.66 Gy.
20 x 2.66 Gy is the exact same BED as 30 x 2 Gy (a/b=3).
We have decided now to make 20 x 2.66 Gy the standard for the fit GBMs who are going to get RT + Temozolomid. I think it's reasonable, you spare them 2 weeks of treatment.
I am not comfortable with giving 15 x 2.66 Gy to super-fit GBM patients.
 
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The trial can/could/should be done with IMPT, for complete sparring of neaby lymph nodes and avoid “low dose bath”. Better immune response if you do lymph node sparring WLI with IMPT
 
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The trial can/could/should be done with IMPT, for complete sparring of neaby lymph nodes and avoid “low dose bath”. Better immune response if you do lymph node sparring WLI with IMPT

Stop trolling
 
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When it comes to James Welsh- lets just say Paul Wallner was on to something!!!!!
 
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maybe James Welsh can clue you in, mate.

From the bio:

"Dr. Welsh had a singular focus in life to help humanity... In his current position as a tenured Associate Professor at MD Anderson Cancer Center, Dr. Welsh realizes his mission on a daily basis. "

Must be quite a guy.
 
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From the bio:

"Dr. Welsh had a singular focus in life to help humanity... In his current position as a tenured Associate Professor at MD Anderson Cancer Center, Dr. Welsh realizes his mission on a daily basis. "

Must be quite a guy.

They did cross the word “cancer” out.
 
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From the bio:

"Dr. Welsh had a singular focus in life to help humanity... In his current position as a tenured Associate Professor at MD Anderson Cancer Center, Dr. Welsh realizes his mission on a daily basis. "

Must be quite a guy.
Know 0 about him, but that is over the top as it gets. Doubt even Ghandi or the Dalai Lama would ever describe themselves that way.
 
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Becoming the butt of jokes now, at least for Ralph


Someone should design a trial, where only one COVID-infected lobe is irradiated, so that abscopal effects can take place in other infected lobes.
That may possibly satisfy him...


Abscopal.png
 
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Someone should design a trial, where only one COVID-infected lobe is irradiated, so that abscopal effects can take place in other infected lobes.
That may possibly satisfy him...


View attachment 305088
For anything abscopal related, Jim Welsh is Mulder and Silvia Formenti is Scully
 
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Looks like Khan removed his post on “being honored to run game changing rad Onc trial for COVID”
 
For anything abscopal related, Jim Welsh is Mulder and Silvia Formenti is Scully
The Genius Hack Every Radiation Oncologist Should Know:
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(Simply Astonishing, Only a Few People Know These Hacks)
Shocking Truth Revealed - Top Radiation Oncologists Explain How?
 
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Looks like Khan removed his post on “being honored to run game changing rad Onc trial for COVID”
What happened to him was a form of cyberbullying. I don't think he should have removed the post though. There is still a news release on the Emory site however. Had it been me I would have defended the hell out of the thought process on twitter; the rationale, goals, risks, etc. Not only for my own sake but for my specialty's sake. And Ralph W showed himself to be yet again, at the very least, not a very collegial fellow (called it "hocum"! for pete's sake). And not very intellectually honest. There is way more tangible data that RT affects pneumonia outcomes than RT interacts meaningfully with immunotherapy. And way more years of history for the former vs the latter. Ralph criticized RT for pneumonia along the lines of "how does it even work?" yet seldom hesitates to wax I'm-clever speculative about oligomets and immuno, etc.
 
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What happened to him was a form of cyberbullying. I don't think he should have removed the post though. There is still a news release on the Emory site however. Had it been me I would have defended the hell out of the thought process on twitter; the rationale, goals, risks, etc. Not only for my own sake but for my specialty's sake. And Ralph W showed himself to be yet again, at the very least, not a very collegial fellow (called it "hocum"! for pete's sake). And not very intellectually honest. There is way more tangible data that RT affects pneumonia outcomes than RT interacts meaningfully with immunotherapy. And way more years of history for the former vs the latter. Ralph criticized RT for pneumonia along the lines of "how does it even work?" yet seldom hesitates to wax I'm-clever speculative about oligomets and immuno, etc.

I'm with you on the bullying. Ralph W def did not have to go after MK the way that he did.

At the same time I will say many ppl warned ROs about the dangers of how this trial was presented, including several of us on here and Twitter, especially to other specialties. Much of the issue IMO was him saying "game changer" etc before enrolling a single patient.

Also, chasing abscopal is BS. I'm on team ablate all sites of dz
 
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I'm with you on the bullying. Ralph W def did not have to go after MK the way that he did.

At the same time I will say many ppl warned ROs about the dangers of how this trial was presented, including several of us on here and Twitter, especially to other specialties. Much of the issue IMO was him saying "game changer" etc before enrolling a single patient.

Also, chasing abscopal is BS. I'm on team ablate all sites of dz

Bingo. Big difference between 'we are evaluating this as a potential treatment and hope to improve outcomes' (which is reasonable, IMO) and 'this will be a game-changer and WILL improve outcomes'. Especially in public social media where everybody feels they are an expert in everything.
 
Bingo. Big difference between 'we are evaluating this as a potential treatment and hope to improve outcomes' (which is reasonable, IMO) and 'this will be a game-changer and WILL improve outcomes'. Especially in public social media where everybody feels they are an expert in everything.
Not greatest choice of words. Heck horrible word choices. We can’t pull up the tweet now. But he did not say “will” change outcomes and made no overt promises or claims. I think in fact he said “could” or “hopes” to be a game changer. Making claims like “will” would be a graver sin. But at one time or another we are all guilty of poor word choices. One thing to rib, another to pelt or crucify. However it’s a spicy stew when you mix covid anxiety, studies from a hundred years ago, social justice/ethics warrioring, radiation fears, the Emory ivory tower... and twitter.
 
Not greatest choice of words. Heck horrible word choices. We can’t pull up the tweet now. But he did not say “will” change outcomes and made no overt promises or claims. I think in fact he said “could” or “hopes” to be a game changer. Making claims like “will” would be a graver sin. But at one time or another we are all guilty of poor word choices. One thing to rib, another to pelt or crucify. However it’s a spicy stew when you mix covid anxiety, studies from a hundred years ago, social justice/ethics warrioring, radiation fears, the Emory ivory tower... and twitter.

As I said before, I understand why people want to do this and the pneumonia data etc.

However, other reasonable folks see this as reckless and dangerous, thus the harshest response is warranted. Many are in disbelief that this could pass an IRB. Should it be done with more tact, sure, but man it's Twitter you know it won't be "Dr. Khan, I disagree with such a proposal as it goes against our long held medical principal of beneficence" it's gonna be "YO, YOU DUMB BRO. U GONNA BE KILLIN' THEM B & T CELLS AND KILL THE PT AND INFECT THE WHOLE DEPT! SMH #XRTFAIL #XRTSHAME #1930sDATAISWEAK"
 
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As I said before, I understand why people want to do this and the pneumonia data etc.

However, other reasonable folks see this as reckless and dangerous, thus the harshest response is warranted. Many are in disbelief that this could pass an IRB. Should it be done with more tact, sure, but man it's Twitter you know it won't be "Dr. Khan, I disagree with such a proposal as it goes against our long held medical principal of beneficence" it's gonna be "YO, YOU DUMB BRO. U GONNA BE KILLIN' THEM B & T CELLS AND KILL THE PT AND INFECT THE WHOLE DEPT! SMH #XRTFAIL #XRTSHAME #1930sDATAISWEAK"
Dangerous? Hmm. Maybe just on the basis of carting sick patients around a hospital. Exposure to staff etc. But the XRT is not dangerous. About 100,000 women a year get breast RT, millions more walking around who have. I have never called their "covid equivalent" lung XRT exposure "dangerous," nor have I ever seen rad oncs say so.
Heck I think the onus is on someone to show how, on the basis of the medical literature and how things have been and are done in medicine in general, XRT is not "a" standard of care for pneumonia. I don't see anything but paper thin differences between this and RT for arthritis, dupuytren's, tendinitis, etc., where RT is a standard of care (and paid for by Evicore!) and not considered "dangerous." Somebody mentioned leech therapy on twitter, deriding XRT for pneumonia. As an intern, I dealt with leeches (literally) quite a bit! Put them on and took them off several people on plastics rotation.
 
Dangerous? Hmm. Maybe just on the basis of carting sick patients around a hospital. Exposure to staff etc. But the XRT is not dangerous. About 100,000 women a year get breast RT, millions more walking around who have. I have never called their "covid equivalent" lung XRT exposure "dangerous," nor have I ever seen rad oncs say so.
Heck I think the onus is on someone to show how, on the basis of the medical literature and how things have been and are done in medicine in general, XRT is not "a" standard of care for pneumonia. I don't see anything but paper thin differences between this and RT for arthritis, dupuytren's, tendinitis, etc., where RT is a standard of care (and paid for by Evicore!) and not considered "dangerous." Somebody mentioned leech therapy on twitter, deriding XRT for pneumonia. As an intern, I dealt with leeches (literally) quite a bit! Put them on and took them off several people on plastics rotation.

Fair. What I think is more accurate is that I think the therapeutic ratio is NOT good. I think there is a chance of harm in a sick patient who needs their lymphocytes by giving them 1 Gy whole lung, while I think there is a smaller chance of any benefit.

The older studies were mostly bacterial pneumonia. The early 20th century, literally pre-1940s data, I'm sorry, should be held with some suspicion. The pneumonia of today with modern imaging, serology, and a hundred years of medicine is not the pneumonia of the 1900s - 1930s.

Just b/c there are some indications for XRT like Arthritis, Keloid, and Dupuytren's is really an apple to oranges comparison. What we want to know is, in humans, what is the benefit of 1 Gy whole lung XRT on sick COVID patients? We have very minimal data on this, certainly not enough in many people's opinion to bring ill patients down from a hospital bed into a rad onc dept. What they are going for is an anti-inflam reaction (stopping cytokine storm???), but very reasonable to think this is not the time to deplete lymphocytes.
 
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Not greatest choice of words. Heck horrible word choices. We can’t pull up the tweet now. But he did not say “will” change outcomes and made no overt promises or claims. I think in fact he said “could” or “hopes” to be a game changer. Making claims like “will” would be a graver sin. But at one time or another we are all guilty of poor word choices. One thing to rib, another to pelt or crucify. However it’s a spicy stew when you mix covid anxiety, studies from a hundred years ago, social justice/ethics warrioring, radiation fears, the Emory ivory tower... and twitter.

I saw his tweet pre-edit, and pre-removal. His initial tweet said "will be a game changer". He then edited it to "suspect it could be a game changer". Then he deleted it.
 
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As far as I am concerned, the only reason not to try this would be to avoid exposure risk...

The idea of 1 Gy of RT being "too dangerous" when everyone was loading up patients with plaquenil off trial is a little laughable. In my (albeit limited) experience, I haven't seen someone die of a fatal arrythmia shortly after receiving 1 Gy of RT. Just sayin'...

Low dose RT is no more or less crazy than any of the other dozen-or-so treatments they are trying for COVID, most of which were "never approved for pneumonia".

You cannot lament the 'death of rad onc' while you tear down on any semblance of innovation. Residency expansion isn't killing our field, it's hurting the job market --big difference. If anything is killing the field, it's mundanity, cynicism, and a lack of imagination.
 
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Let’s be clear on the “exposure” piece.

You’re not going to do this with cancer patients in the department. You’re not going to do this without appropriate PPE (gloves, gowns, masks, N95s). You’re not going to be simming them. You’re going to be moving these patients once onto the treatment couch for 3 minutes and then back onto their bed and getting them out of Dodge. Environmental services will be terminally cleaning the vault thereafter.

you and the therapists probably run a similar risk of exposure ordering Jimmy Johns delivery.

droplets in the hallway, I’m not sure on that piece. Hospital would need to have some policy in place.
 
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I think there is a chance of harm in a sick patient who needs their lymphocytes by giving them 1 Gy whole lung, while I think there is a smaller chance of any benefit.
Zero chance of harm.* IMHO. Why?
1) You either have enough lymphocytes, or you don't. You're immunocompromised or not. I don't think you can be "10% immunocompromised." To hear my med onc colleagues tell it, the "mild" (when/if it's "mild") decrease in blood counts from chemo doesn't lead to increase in infections like pneumonia. And different human races/sexes, have different "normal" lymphocyte counts--these do not correlate with pneumonia susceptibility AFAIK. (Can COVID-19 affect different races differently? Maybe.) But if needing lymphocytes are key, 1) we should be able to correlate covid outcomes with pre-covid lymphocyte numbers, and 2) maybe contemplate GM-CSF injections for patients with pneumonia? Doubt these two things. The body has a surfeit of white blood cells to get the deterge job(s) done, in general.**
2) Low-dose RT will not significantly affect lymphocyte counts. (See #1.)
3) Can't cite this, but lots of places in old days doing TBI regimens of e.g. 12 Gy/6 fx would not use lung blocks at all. There were never any adverse effects, looking at anything (lung tox, pneumonia, pneumonitis, etc) seen in those groups vs groups that did get lung blocks. Within the limits of retrospective comparisons of course.

The logistics of XRT + covid would not be "my cup of tea." If it's another fellow's cup of tea, go for it. XRT harm not a significant variable in the calculus.

* "Zero" is strong. Less that 1 in 10,000 chance of XRT toxicity, let's say.
** EDIT:
actually Google just told me that having too many lymphocytes gives you a wildly increased lung cancer risk?! So let's decrease those lymphocyte numbers as much as possible.
I saw his tweet pre-edit, and pre-removal. His initial tweet said "will be a game changer". He then edited it to "suspect it could be a game changer". Then he deleted it.
I'll defer to your recollection... it's like he went through that whole first they ignore you/then ridicule you/then attack you thing, in reverse, in his own head.
 
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I can't let go of the potential harm to the staff. Can anyone think of another example (other than war) where other people are put at risk for the benefit of a clinical investigators career?
 
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Zero chance of harm.* IMHO. Why?
1) You either have enough lymphocytes, or you don't. You're immunocompromised or not. I don't think you can be "10% immunocompromised." To hear my med onc colleagues tell it, the "mild" (when/if it's "mild") decrease in blood counts from chemo doesn't lead to increase in infections like pneumonia. And different human races/sexes, have different "normal" lymphocyte counts--these do not correlate with pneumonia susceptibility AFAIK. (Can COVID-19 affect different races differently? Maybe.) But if needing lymphocytes are key, 1) we should be able to correlate covid outcomes with pre-covid lymphocyte numbers, and 2) maybe contemplate GM-CSF injections for patients with pneumonia? Doubt these two things. The body has a surfeit of white blood cells to get the deterge job(s) done, in general.
2) Low-dose RT will not significantly affect lymphocyte counts. (See #1.)
3) Can't cite this, but lots of places in old days doing TBI regimens of e.g. 12 Gy/6 fx would not use lung blocks at all. There were never any adverse effects, looking at anything (lung tox, pneumonia, pneumonitis, etc) seen in those groups vs groups that did get lung blocks. Within the limits of retrospective comparisons of course.

* "Zero" is strong. Less that 1 in 10,000 chance of XRT toxicity, let's say.

I sympathize with your points and understand where you are coming from, but...

If low-dose XRT won't affect lymphocytes much than why do you think it's effective enough to control a cytokine storm?

Ok, "dangerous" may be a poor choice of words? Maybe more harm than good, ? Anyway are you saying that 1 Gy is so benign we can treat anybody with 1 Gy (mind you these are non-cancer patients who will likely recover anyway)? If not than why not? We know there will not be decades of follow up etc.

1 Gy of Whole Lung XRT is NOT SAFE agreed? It will not make anyone healthier (although we all have those patients who ask if it will give them mutant super powers haha) and if there is a semantic battle with "dangerous" that is fine, but these are again NON-cancer patients. Yes keloid patients, I know I know, but much different field, with much different side effect profile.

What PREVENT is arguing is that there is enough data to show low dose XRT 35 cGy and 100 cGy is completely safe in non-cancer patients in the long run (No) and there is good pre-clinical data to start this in a sick non-cancer population with hospital exposure risk (this is where I say no).

Although, it may seem like an "easy transfer" with full PPE, in real life it will not be so. I don't think they are capturing data on exposure risks to staff as an endpoint. They should.
 
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I can't let go of the potential harm to the staff. Can anyone think of another example (other than war) where other people are put at risk for the benefit of a clinical investigators career?

Full disclosure, my institution is opening a trial using low dose RT for COVID patients...
I will be enrolling and treating patients on protocol, I am not the PI.

I agree that no one -from radiation therapists, to nurses, to transporters, to physicists, to radoncs- should be compelled to accept more personal risk for a clinical trial. But if health care workers choose to participate, it probably won't be to merely advance the careers of the would-be co-authors.

I think I can speak for most advocates of these studies and say that I don't to think that RT is likely to help... but given the god-awful misery this virus is causing, the small (yet plausible) probability of success warrants investigation by willing investigators.
 
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I can't let go of the potential harm to the staff. Can anyone think of another example (other than war) where other people are put at risk for the benefit of a clinical investigators career?
I presume lots of the clinical research work in nuclear medicine is linked to certain doses being received by the personell injecting isotopes.
And certainly, clinical research in gastroenterology, cardiology involving fluroscopy also bears risks.

All of them are of stochastic nature, but still...
 
If low-dose XRT won't affect lymphocytes much than why do you think it's effective enough to control a cytokine storm?
In theory, it's immunomodulatory. And if you look into the ex-vivo research, you will see that the dose ranges are variable. Which means that if you go substantially over 1 Gy (but still in "safe regions") you may have a counter-effect. So, 2-4 Gy seem to be immunosuppressive, but doses up to 1 Gy seem not to.
ALL EX-VIVO, all in theory...

1 Gy of Whole Lung XRT is NOT SAFE agreed? It will not make anyone healthier (although we all have those patients who ask if it will give them mutant super powers haha) and if there is a semantic battle with "dangerous" that is fine, but these are again NON-cancer patients. Yes keloid patients, I know I know, but much different field, with much different side effect profile.
The point is, that perhaps 1 Gy of WLI may be good for pneumonia. That's at least what was studied back in the 30s and based on that, people are speculating it may work on COVID too. That's the theory. And to prove that, you need an experiment.

What PREVENT is arguing is that there is enough data to show low dose XRT 35 cGy and 100 cGy is completely safe in non-cancer patients in the long run (No) and there is good pre-clinical data to start this in a sick non-cancer population with hospital exposure risk (this is where I say no).
Valid arguments. It's a risk/benefit calculation.

Although, it may seem like an "easy transfer" with full PPE, in real life it will not be so. I don't think they are capturing data on exposure risks to staff as an endpoint. They should.
I posted here a couple of weeks ago that one of our patients got COVID in the middle of his head&neck treatment. We kept on treating him, daily, with full PPE and all. The whole show. For ONE patient. Yes, one cancer patient and one important part of his treatment (adjuvant RT for pN+ SCC of H&N), but we decided to subject personell to all those risks to help this one patient. With a fractionated treatment and something like 20+ fractions to go... On a daily basis.
Unfortunately we had to stop treatment a few days afterwards, since his COVID-condition deteriorated and haven't been able to restart (unclear if we ever will).

The trial is Emory is looking at 5 patients, which will get 1 (?) fraction. That's 5 "encounters" with a COVID patient (or perhaps 10, since they will have to sim them too). But still, the whole exposure risk from that one trial is less than the exposure risk we had with one patient. And believe me, we were certainly not the first ones and will certainly not be the last ones in that situation.
 
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Here is the original tweet:
Adjustments.JPG


And the nail in the coffin:
Adjustments.JPG


Incredibly irresponsible to say the least. I mean... broadcasting a single arm 5 patient study that “promises to improve patient outcome” and “will be a game changer” then comparing it to “light therapy” and tagging Trump?

Apart from the reckless delivery on twitter, I have issues with doing a 5 patient whole lung RT study during this pandemic.

What could possible be learned? All patients die? Related to treatment? I dunno. All live? Might be intervention, or not... it’s apparently a phase I/II so there’s some kind of efficacy endpoint?

All the while putting staff at risk and cancer patients too if there’s contamination of the vault. Not worth the risk given nothing can be learned in my opinion.

Perhaps there is a role for RT based on the historical data, but come on need a better study than this that justifies the risk.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
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Here is the original tweet:
View attachment 305168

And the nail in the coffin:
View attachment 305169

Incredibly irresponsible to say the least. I mean... broadcasting a single arm 5 patient study that “promises to improve patient outcome” and “will be a game changer” then comparing it to “light therapy” and tagging Trump?

Apart from the reckless delivery on twitter, I have issues with doing a 5 patient whole lung RT study during this pandemic.

What could possible be learned? All patients die? Related to treatment? I dunno. All live? Might be intervention, or not... it’s apparently a phase I/II so there’s some kind of efficacy endpoint?

All the while putting staff at risk and cancer patients too if there’s contamination of the vault. Not worth the risk given nothing can be learned in my opinion.

Perhaps there is a role for RT based on the historical data, but come on need a better study than this that justifies the risk.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
NOW I recall.
Why were people nitpicking his word choices?

prom·ise /ˈpräməs/ give good grounds for expecting (a particular occurrence or situation).
sus·pect /səˈspekt/ have an idea or impression of the existence, presence, or truth of (something) without certain proof.

In retrospect... perfect word choices?
But in seriousness he had good grounds (on the basis of previous published experiences) for expecting something without certain proof. I don't personally think we should reward or upbraid merely on the basis of taciturnity. (The thing I chuckled at was "high profile.")
 
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