Rocky-Vista and its aftermath

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Again, I'm speaking for the person who originally suggested this, but I'm guessing that's the point. They think things like this are a strong indication that there needs to be a....."different", body than the one who allows this sort of thing to happen. Not to mention, it's a little strange that there are different standards for accrediting DO & MD schools - it's an inconsistency that is not easy to reconcile.

Thanks for making my point, its difficult to articulate that without evoking strong emotions.

I just find it alarming that you can merely say, "hey I think I want a medical school, I have some friends with money, I think I'll start a school." If this is profitable, which I'm sure it is or they wouldn't go through with it, it is going to lower the standard for the quality of students that enter school. Just like all the branch campuses have, some of you may find that offensive, but it's true.

There is a reason medical school is hard to get into, and there are certain people that shouldn't be let in, just "really wanting to be a good doctor," doesn't make you one. So, by playing on these emotions of sub-par students just as chiropractic schools have, is going to hurt medical education and medical standards of care.

DO's have worked hard to earn their spots along sides of their MD colleagues. The quality of education is constantly improving at most institutions. But, we have much further to go to achieve the same level of academics that most LCME schools have, not so much in pre-clinical education, though there is room for improvement. But, the clinical education has got to improve and this must be addressed.

With so much attention to "pay for performance" right now, and criticism on medical accreditation (Mass Gen loosing JCAHO), its just a matter of time before medical schools receive this same scrutiny. When those standards are set, there won't be two. So if AOA wants to continue it's oversight of it's medical schools and GME; it is going to have to adapt to the changing medical community and adopt standards that exceed the current status quo.

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Again, I'm speaking for the person who originally suggested this, but I'm guessing that's the point. They think things like this are a strong indication that there needs to be a....."different", body than the one who allows this sort of thing to happen. Not to mention, it's a little strange that there are different standards for accrediting DO & MD schools - it's an inconsistency that is not easy to reconcile.

It may be strange to you that there are different accrediting bodies, but it is not strange to DOs and student DOs that we have the right to govern our own institutions. While I disagree with the AOA and COCA in regard to RVU, it does not mean that we are incapable of governing ourselves, and it is not is something that DOs should give up without a fight. We are a distinct profession, and our accrediting needs and standards are different from that of allopathic institutions.
 
It may be strange to you that there are different accrediting bodies, but it is not strange to DOs and student DOs that we have the right to govern our own institutions. While I disagree with the AOA and COCA in regard to RVU, it does not mean that we are incapable of governing ourselves, and it is not is something that DOs should give up without a fight. We are a distinct profession, and our accrediting needs and standards are different from that of allopathic institutions.

How are you distinct? Think carefully...
 
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How are you distinct? Think carefully...

The copious amounts of similarities does not preclude these two groups from having separate boarding and accreditation agencies. While I disagree with the AOA and COCA about Rocky Vista, I would not be willing to just hand over our profession to the MDs. Personally, I like my DO degree, I like the school I graduated from, and I have no problems being in the minority.
 
The copious amounts of similarities does not preclude these two groups from having separate boarding and accreditation agencies. While I disagree with the AOA and COCA about Rocky Vista, I would not be willing to just hand over our profession to the MDs. Personally, I like my DO degree, I like the school I graduated from, and I have no problems being in the minority.

"Hand over your profession"? Wow. As if technically being part under the auspices of the AMA/AAMC would somehow rape you of everything you've ever loved. Let's have a contest to see how dramatic we can make this. So far JayneCobb's in the lead. Anyone want to counter with, "We have a VASTLY different philosophy, how dare you suggest otherwise"? I would also consider, "OMM makes us totally unique, how dare you belittle our uniqueness" to be a raise. Bonus points for use of the words, "catastrophic", "cataclysmic", "horrendous", or "hellish".

(No one quote actual fact or trends within osteopathic medicine, though, it'll ruin it.)
 
"Hand over your profession"? Wow. As if technically being part under the auspices of the AMA/AAMC would somehow rape you of everything you've ever loved. Let's have a contest to see how dramatic we can make this. So far JayneCobb's in the lead.

(No one quote actual fact or trends within osteopathic medicine, though, it'll ruin it.)

It's amusing that you jump the gun and accuse me of being dramatic and yet you really haven't done anything but wave your hands and say hey look at me instead of showing how what I said was wrong unless you include the blatant strawman. Whether you admit it or not, but giving up our ability to accredit and guide ourselves is tantamount to giving over our profession to outsiders. I have no more business telling an MD school how to run things any more than they do telling us how to run ours. And I will also admit that I feel that the DO profession has continued to prove themselves through the years as just as clinically competent as our counterparts and have survived the initial onslaught of the AMA's attempts to shut down the profession and have not only survived but thrived and have earned the right to continue on their way as long as they maintain a competent level of education.

I'll be the first to admit that I have misgivings about the AOA, but that in and of itself does not equate to me wanting to disband them.

The real pertinent issues with placing the accreditation soley under the auspices of the ACGME are
  1. what would they do with the DO degree? would they convert them to mds ala California in the 60s?
  2. what place would the ACGME have governing any component of Osteopathic manipulative medicine?
  3. Why would the LCME/ACGME want to accredit our schools and residencies?
And I will not argue that DOs are substancially different from MDs. Merely our Musculoskeletal skills are better and I do know a few things which can help alleviate patients pain without using medications.

I"ve said it before, but there is no honor in conformity, and there is no need for the merging of the professions. As long as we are able to maintain and push each other to become better and more innovative in our teaching methodologies,

I'll ask you this. What benefit would their be for allowing the ACGME/LCME accredit Osteopathic institutions? Do you feel that there are no crappy MD schools or residencies? The reasons of "just because" or "for simplicity's sake" or "because they're better" are no better reasons to insist on a merger than "because I think of the whole patient, not just the parts"
 
How does the thread title: "Rocky-Vista and its aftermath" turns into the discussion of merger of the MD/DO profession?

RVU is the begining of the end

The real pertinent issues with placing the accreditation soley under the auspices of the ACGME are
  1. what would they do with the DO degree? would they convert them to mds ala California in the 60s?
  2. what place would the ACGME have governing any component of Osteopathic manipulative medicine?
  3. Why would the LCME/ACGME want to accredit our schools and residencies?
And I will not argue that DOs are substancially different from MDs. Merely our Musculoskeletal skills are better and I do know a few things which can help alleviate patients pain without using medications.

I"ve said it before, but there is no honor in conformity, and there is no need for the merging of the professions. As long as we are able to maintain and push each other to become better and more innovative in our teaching methodologies,

I'll ask you this. What benefit would their be for allowing the ACGME/LCME accredit Osteopathic institutions? Do you feel that there are no crappy MD schools or residencies? The reasons of "just because" or "for simplicity's sake" or "because they're better" are no better reasons to insist on a merger than "because I think of the whole patient, not just the parts"


1. Read my previous arguments, if this keeps rolling thats what will happen
2. Who's governing OMM now? A bunch of has beens holding on to pseudo science developed in the early 1900's pre PCN? That is a weak argument, that only stands with the nearly deads of osteopathy.
3. They wouldn't without improving them. Heard of the Flexner Report?

My point is, I agree with you. I see multiple advantages of having dual accrediting bodies. I too like my school, my profession, however I'm not so arrogant to say that things do not need to be changed. There are some very good schools and residency programs out there, but many are laughable. We need comprehensive reform that sets a new standard of care and education, right now we are falling behind. I'm afraid lowering the standard for admission will only put us in a more vulnerable position in the future.
 
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How are you distinct? Think carefully...

How about you think carefully..

How about you describe how osteopathic medical education is the same, and I'll refute your argument... seeing as you're the arrogant [edited] who presumes that he has the solution a problem that isn't even your own.

What do you know about the osteopathic community or our education? My bet would be on very little to nothing...

Yes, the AOA messed up, but as you can see there is quite a bit of discontent in the ranks of the DO profession. Because George Bush made a bad decision to go into Iraq does that mean that the Federal Government should be disbanded? That's ridiculous, and so is doing away with our accrediting body simply because it made a mistake.
 
How about you think carefully..

How about you describe how osteopathic medical education is the same, and I'll refute your argument... seeing as you're the arrogant [edited] who presumes that he has the solution a problem that isn't even your own.

What do you know about the osteopathic community or our education? My bet would be on very little to nothing...

If I am not mistaken Northerner is a DO? I could be wrong :)
 
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Yes! :p


Ok, maybe not disbanded... but at least dismantled and [some of the agencies] replaced.



RP 2008 gogogogogo

Well I dont thin kthat anyone on here would say that the AOA shouldn't undergo reform... But I don't think that we should give up our autonomy without a fight as DOs or student DOs.

No I don't think that northerner is a DO. I will have to check some of his post history I guess...
 
Hey guys,

I have done the extensive research and I still dont know...But what is the difference between DO's and MD's...I saw in another thread that DO's can practice witchcraft...is that true? Do witchcraft residencies take the COMLEX and how competitve must your score be?




:laugh:
 
Note:

1) Obvious comparisons between off-shore Caribbean schools and new US osteopathic medical schools. This is not the direction for the osteopathic profession to go; it is not a positive public image nor cognitive link for the profession to promote.

2) Cogent criticism of the osteopathic "scatter them to the wind" clinical educational model. While supplemental, community-based rotations are good and innovative, the current osteopathic medical enterprise has abused this system as a way to avoid INVESTING in GME and bricks-and-mortar GME infrastructure.

3) The only way to curtail this development is for the osteopathic medical profession to apply direct pressure upon RVU through its network of personal relationships, political ties, and grass-roots advocacy. Student stakeholders who are concerned about the 30-50 year implications of this development on the prestige, credibility, and value of their education and degrees should work to introduce AOA House of Delegate Resolutions via their state societies or student organizations to change COCA accreditation standards in order to discourage for-profit COM's.


http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2007/10/01/prsc1001.htm

First for-profit med school nears approval: Medical educators debate whether the school will sacrifice education for profits.

By Myrle Croasdale, AMNews staff. Oct. 1, 2007.



With Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Parker, Colo., one step closer to becoming the only for-profit, accredited medical school in the United States, it is generating controversy in the medical community.

In August, the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation awarded the school provisional accreditation. Once fully accredited, it will join the ranks of 149 public and private medical schools in the U.S. All those institutions are nonprofits.

Critics say a for-profit school will be beholden to investors and will scrimp on educational mission. Supporters assert that Rocky Vista must meet the same accreditation standards of other osteopathic schools. They also say the school's educational outcomes will be the same as nonprofit schools.

"People are paying a lot of attention to this. There's been a lot of discussion, and there are some very vocal people against it," said Stephen C. Shannon, DO, MPH, president and CEO of the American Assn. of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine.

The phrase "for-profit school" triggers a negative picture of a business making money from tuition while skimping on education, he said. Medical educators from DO and MD schools alike are watching to see if Rocky Vista transcends that image.

Dr. Shannon is betting on Rocky Vista's success, at least as an educational venture. "It remains to be seen if this is the beginning of a trend or not," Dr. Shannon said. "That's not beyond the realm of possibilities."

There are 149 public and private accredited medical schools in the U.S.
He said Rocky Vista represents a change in how osteopathic medical education is structured, not a change in curriculum, clinical training, research or focus on primary care.

"The key is to be sure that the development of any college of osteopathic medicine, like allopathic medicine, is following national standards and focusing on quality education that relates to the needs of our health care system," Dr. Shannon said.

Ronnie Martin, DO, RPh, dean and chief academic officer of Rocky Vista, said the school board's independence convinced him to join the staff.

He said the board is free to determine the school's mission and budget, without interference from the school's chancellor and chief investor, Coral Gables, Fla.-businessman Yife Tien, who is not on the board. Tien is involved in managing the American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine on Montserrat, according to the Rocky Vista Web site.

Dr. Martin said he was not given guidelines on what profits the school is expected to generate.

Neither Tien or Rocky Vista's public relations representative returned phone calls. But according to Dr. Martin, the school's auditing firm projected that there will be no return on the $100 million investment for the first two to three years. The firm predicts that it will take 17 years to break even.

George Mychaskiw II, DO, chief of anesthesia at the Blair E. Batson Children's Hospital in Jackson, Miss., said he does not believe that accreditation standards are enough to ensure that a school with private investors will give students a high-quality education.

Dr. Mychaskiw said he believes a for-profit school within the osteopathic profession's ranks erodes creditability. "This is a very unsavory situation," said Dr. Mychaskiw, who also is a professor at the University of Mississippi School of Medicine.

Richard A. Cooper, MD, a physician work force expert and senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania's Leonard Davis Institute of Health Economics in Philadelphia, said the entry of a for-profit medical school is one of several factors muddying medical education's waters.

An increasing number of schools have moved away from the traditional model where students are immersed in an academic medical campus and culture in which there is a medical school and teaching hospital with clinical staff committed to education, patient care and research.

Instead, he said, new schools without ties to a neighboring tertiary hospital are shipping their students out for their third- and fourth-year clerkships to hospitals without strong teaching or research backgrounds.

"You learn a lot in medical school besides how to pass the exam [U.S. Medical Licensing Examination]," Dr. Cooper said. "You learn professionalism, leadership, responsibility. You are immersed in the experience."

It is a very special educational environment, he said, one that for-profit schools might not be able to capture.
 
This DeVry School of Medicine is not going to do anything good for the prestige of the D.O. degree. Or medicine as a whole.

I'm sure soon enough, the University of Phoenix will start online medical degrees. They'll just throw a cadaver room in their testing buildings, bribe a few members of the accreditation committee and away we go. How long till the banner ads?

"Could Medicine be your passion? Take our quiz and find out"
"Earn your Medical Degree while you work!"
"Get your D.O. online and SAVE!"
 
I know there are medical schools out there not even using cadavers!!! There is no need for a cadaver room.
 
I'm sure soon enough, the University of Phoenix will start online medical degrees. They'll just throw a cadaver room in their testing buildings, bribe a few members of the accreditation committee and away we go. How long till the banner ads?

"Could Medicine be your passion? Take our quiz and find out"
"Earn your Medical Degree while you work!"
"Get your D.O. online and SAVE!"

When everyone goes to college, it matters which college you went to. There was a time in American history when a high school diploma meant something, and a Bachelor's degree was an accomplishment. Today, assuming you don't have family in the Longshoreman's union, about the best job that a high school diploma will buy you is dodging bullets in Iraq. If you have an average BA from an average school, you'll probably end up as a Barista at Starbucks. A Masters is the new bachelors. What happens when this trend works its way up the chain? DOs will be back to wearing blue vests when they work...because they work at Wal-Mart clinics.

Those of you who are afraid of the AMA, the ACGME, and the NBME - you would do well to be far more afraid of MBAs, Attorneys, Accounts, and Insurance Companies. They will be the ones who can destroy you career if you're not smart about managing it.

Everyone should join the AMA. Every MD, every DO. There is strength in numbers. If you don't believe me, let me share with you a longshoreman's payscale...


Basic Lonshoreman
Day = $30.68 hr = $63,000 yr
Night (time and 1/3) = $40.91 hr = $85,000 yr

Skill I = Semi-Tracter
Day = $33.08 hr = $68,800 yr
Night (time and 1/3) = $44.11 = $91,700 yr

Skill II = Heavy Forklift > 15 tons
Day = $35.35 hr = $73,500 yr
Night (time and 1/3)= $47.13 = $98,000 yr

Skill III = Container handling equip. (Top loaders, cranes)
Pay is 10 hr per day (8 straight and 2 OT)
Day = $36.48 hr = $104,000 yr
Night (time and 1/3) = $48.64 = $129,600

The AOA has proven itself quite incapable as a professional organization by letting Rocky Vista come into being and threaten the future of the degree. Follow the direction that they are busily setting for the "osteopathic profession" and you may end up working for less than a crane operator...assuming that you can work at all.
 
"Today, assuming you don't have family in the Longshoreman's union, about the best job that a high school diploma will buy you is dodging bullets in Iraq.

The AOA has proven itself quite incapable as a professional organization by letting Rocky Vista come into being and threaten the future of the degree. Follow the direction that they are busily setting for the "osteopathic profession" and you may end up working for less than a crane operator...assuming that you can work at all"

It's nice to see that stereotyping is alive and well on SDN. Good Job!:thumbup:
 
This is hilarious! People have no stinkin' idea what a DO is, they've never heard of it, they think it's a bogus degree (remember Paris' doc?), yet the opening of a DO school for profit will doom this invisible profession.

I'm looking forward to seeing RVU grow into a good, solid DO school. Then I'm going to resurrect this thread!
 
How about you think carefully..

How about you describe how osteopathic medical education is the same, and I'll refute your argument... seeing as you're the arrogant [edited] who presumes that he has the solution a problem that isn't even your own.

What do you know about the osteopathic community or our education? My bet would be on very little to nothing...

Yes, the AOA messed up, but as you can see there is quite a bit of discontent in the ranks of the DO profession. Because George Bush made a bad decision to go into Iraq does that mean that the Federal Government should be disbanded? That's ridiculous, and so is doing away with our accrediting body simply because it made a mistake.

Well, I know that a DO's education is similar enough to USMD that the ACGME allows DOs to enter into USMD residencies. I'd say that would have to make the DO and MD educations relatively similar on multiple levels. But why can't USMD's enter DO GME training programs? Is it the lack of OMM training or how we as MD's arent trained to see our patients from a complete, whole, total biopyschosocialmetaphysical point of view? While I'm not 100% certain, I doubt either really count for jack in those nice uber competetive radiology, derm and surgical DO-only residencies of yours. Point is youre not that darn unique, and in fact many DO's flock to train at MD institutions.
 
Hey guys,

I have done the extensive research and I still dont know...But what is the difference between DO's and MD's...I saw in another thread that DO's can practice witchcraft...is that true? Do witchcraft residencies take the COMLEX and how competitve must your score be?




:laugh:


In order to be competitive for a residency in witchcraft, you must have a COMLEX score of 600. Applicants to our residency program below a 600 will not be looked at.

Thank you,

C&C
Director of Witchcraft Program


:luck::hardy::laugh::):D
 
I just read this entire thread. Wow.

RVU is part of a very big story, which can be summarized thus:

The LCME said "no increases. We are 100% committed to quality medical education, and we will not compromise one iota." The AOA said "we just want more DOs." And then opened the floodgates. Osteopathic student numbers more than doubled from 1985-2007. Allopathic numbers barely moved an iota. (link)

Was the AOA wrong? I don't know. The fact is that America imports some 30% of its physicians from non-US schools. We need more docs, like a lot more. They have to come from somewhere.

Was the LCME wrong? I don't know. Maybe they just wanted to keep USMDs as a super exclusive club.

Either way, the physician shortage looms. MDs and DOs are sure to be in very high demand. At the same time, funding for the US health care system, for-profit or not, seems to stand on very shaky ground. The number of uninsured Americans goes up and up, to almost 50 million people. (link) These forces, much more so than anything the AOA or COCA does, will control the trajectory of our physician careers as DOs.

As a total aside, in my personal opinion, I think the AOA is a pack of fools. There's only one word to describe them: dumb.

Regardless of what motivated it, the consequence of this rapid expansion in DOs will be the end of whatever incidental DO distinctiveness is left. The day when anyone can say there's a meaningful difference between an MD and a DO isn't fast approaching, it's come and gone. Likewise, the era when DOs were discriminated against in any meaningful way has also come and gone. The argument is over, SDN flame wars notwithstanding.

As far as the future, keep the OMM if you want. At this point its sort a quaint exercise in palpation skills, a passing nod to a different era of medicine, and a cultural emphasis on the importance and power of touch in medicine. I enjoyed learning it and I'd defend its value, but the the idea that OMM is some meaningful set of diagnostic & therapeutic skills that DOs employ as physicians is a fantasy, and the notion that this training is what "sets us apart" from MDs is a catchy slogan for a glossy admissions brochure.

(Let me clarify this point. I love OMM. However, every study done on this shows that DOs don't actually use OMM in their medical practice. I cannot just pretend like I don't know this. Does that mean it has no value? No. But it does mean that there are probably as many if not more MDs, in fields like pain management and orthopedics, that use manual therapy as there are DOs who do so. The osteopathic profession cannot simply lay claim to something that does not belong to it.)

I think for those of us within the profession, our drumbeat should synchronize to one rhythm: demand quality in education, quality in residency training, and quality in certification standards.

We owe it to ourselves, our patients, and all the worthy medical students who will come after us with the desire to become amazing DOs, MDOs, MDs or whatever the hell we are eventually called. It doesn't matter one scintilla.

Shout it loudly if you have to, but keep shouting it. Raise the bar.

bth7, OMS III
still proud to be (almost) a D.O.
 
I think everyone should quit whining about this school and go about your business.

It's not going to affect you in any way.
 
The LCME said "no increases. We are 100% committed to quality medical education, and we will not compromise one iota." The AOA said "we just want more DOs." And then opened the floodgates. Osteopathic student numbers more than doubled from 1985-2007. Allopathic numbers barely moved an iota. (link)

Was the AOA wrong? I don't know. The fact is that America imports some 30% of its physicians from non-US schools. We need more docs, like a lot more. They have to come from somewhere.

Was the LCME wrong? I don't know. Maybe they just wanted to keep USMDs as a super exclusive club.

While you say you don't view this new school as a threat, I think the above is more accurate than you realize.

The AOA does seem to be saying "More DOs please, and damn the consequences" while the LCME is holding its traditional line. Nobody really disputes that RVU is only the first of many for-profit, University of Phoenix-style D.O. schools to come, which means that the number of people admitted to D.O. schools will increase while the number of American M.D. admits will stay relatively constant.

If there are more and more D.O. slots available per cycle, this means that people with worse applications will be admitted with each passing year. In addition, a for-profit institution has less concern for an applicant's qualifications and more concern for their credit rating. After all, like any business, their primary objective is not to make a quality product. Their objective is to generate profit.

It necessarily follows that while the quality of the average M.D. matriculant will stay constant, the quality of the average D.O. matriculant will deteriorate.

What this means is that the gap between DO and MD, which has been narrowing as it should be in recent years, will once again widen. The DO will again begin to be seen as a second-class clinician degree, on level with a Caribbean degree, or perhaps even the up-and-coming DNP degree. A residency director, or the head of a private medical practice, will have increasing reason to suspect that a given DO grad was a slacker who couldn't cut it in the MD application process, so he bought himself a matriculation in an inferior pathway.

Is this fair? Well, not entirely, no. But you know the saying about a few bad apples.

In its greed for raw numbers, the AOA has corrupted the osteopathic field. One can only hope that it is not irrevocable.
 
While you say you don't view this new school as a threat, I think the above is more accurate than you realize.

The AOA does seem to be saying "More DOs please, and damn the consequences" while the LCME is holding its traditional line. Nobody really disputes that RVU is only the first of many for-profit, University of Phoenix-style D.O. schools to come, which means that the number of people admitted to D.O. schools will increase while the number of American M.D. admits will stay relatively constant.

If there are more and more D.O. slots available per cycle, this means that people with worse applications will be admitted with each passing year. In addition, a for-profit institution has less concern for an applicant's qualifications and more concern for their credit rating. After all, like any business, their primary objective is not to make a quality product. Their objective is to generate profit.

It necessarily follows that while the quality of the average M.D. matriculant will stay constant, the quality of the average D.O. matriculant will deteriorate.

What this means is that the gap between DO and MD, which has been narrowing as it should be in recent years, will once again widen. The DO will again begin to be seen as a second-class clinician degree, on level with a Caribbean degree, or perhaps even the up-and-coming DNP degree. A residency director, or the head of a private medical practice, will have increasing reason to suspect that a given DO grad was a slacker who couldn't cut it in the MD application process, so he bought himself a matriculation in an inferior pathway.

Is this fair? Well, not entirely, no. But you know the saying about a few bad apples.

In its greed for raw numbers, the AOA has corrupted the osteopathic field. One can only hope that it is not irrevocable.

I call bull. C'mon, as it has always been, the residency directors are not only going to look at what is behind your name. Rather, they are going to check WHICH DO SCHOOL you came from. A PCOM, CCOM, DMU-COM, MSUCOM, NYCOM grad is going to be lookd at on a different level than a graduate from RVU. PDs aren't complete idiots... they are physicians. If you find a way to stand out, they aren't goign to disqualify all DO applicants simply because they're DOs. This isn't the 70's, and although I disagree with RVU's existence completely, I don't think that its impact will be as catastrophic as you would believe.
 
Rather, they are going to check WHICH DO SCHOOL you came from. A PCOM, CCOM, DMU-COM, MSUCOM, NYCOM grad is going to be lookd at on a different level than a graduate from RVU.

Of course this will be true.. at first.

But how long before the expanding for-profit sector of the DO medical education system will start to affect the admissions processes at other schools?

After all, the traditional schools will be in direct competition with for-profit businesses now. And just like non-profit hospitals in competition with HCA, the traditional DO schools will begin to adapt for-profit business models just to survive and compete.

Among other negative consequences such as diverting budget resources to marketing, this means that an applicant's financial status will have increasing weight on whether they get admitted. Just like with Caribbean schools.

This is on top of the fact that a rapidly expanding population of DO matriculants means that the average quality of an average DO matriculant will drop. Don't fool yourself into thinking program directors won't notice.

And don't forget that the for-profit schools will have direct influence on the AOA itself once they are accredited. There is no reason not to believe they will band together to further their own interests and form a sizable voting bloc to influence AOA policy.

So... will the kind of discrimination that I was talking about happen right away? No, of course not. Everyone posting here is safe, and while RVU is the only for-profit on the scene, RVU grads will simply be the pariahs of the DO degree. But as more and more for-profits enter the scene, and the DO profession is increasingly dominated by them...

Well, you get the picture. ;)
 
SDN is so entertaining! I love the Rube Goldberg logic on these pages.

The for-profit school will open, their students will be shunned, other schools will need to compete, the AOA will be forced to do their bidding, the government will notice, George Bush will take control of the AMA and the AOA to maintain order, the Communists will take that opportunity of distraction to plant spies, Democracy will collapse, NOOOO! We must stop RVU!!
 
Nobody really disputes that RVU is only the first of many for-profit, University of Phoenix-style D.O. schools to come....

Who have you been talking to? This is an experiment, and it doesn't mean that another for-profit school will ever open up. If (and thta's a great big "IF") it's successful...then there might be some others open up in due time.

....which means that the number of people admitted to D.O. schools will increase while the number of American M.D. admits will stay relatively constant.....

No, allopathic schools have already been told that they need to increase their enrollment by 30% to keep up with the demand for physicians. Two brand new allopathic schools are opening in Florida where I live. Others re increasing enrolment.

....If there are more and more D.O. slots available per cycle, this means that people with worse applications will be admitted with each passing year....

There has been a big increase in the number of slots available in DO schools for the last 5 years and a corresponding increase in the number of applicants. However, the average MCAT and GPA of matriculants has NOT dropped. The MCAT has risen somewhat and the GPA has just barely risen. That tells me that the "quality" of applicants has not diminished. Further increases could change that eventually, but you can't really belive that a decrease of average MCAT by a point or two would significantly change the "quality" of healthcare in America.


In addition, a for-profit institution has less concern for an applicant's qualifications and....Their objective is to generate profit....

Every medical school in the US has to make a "profit" somehow or they will be in trouble. If a med school is consistently operating in the red, then heads will roll. Would it surprise you to learn that companies like Amazon.com often don't make or pay out profits at all? The investors make money by selling the shares that they own as the share values increase, but they don't actually get dividends. They may operate at a loss or the "profits" get re-invested into the company so that it can continue to grow. Who says RVU won't do the same?

You've really jumped to so many conclusions that your argument is incredibly weak. It's easy to rant and rave. If you really want to change things, become a part of the AOA and work toward change from within. That's the only way it's gonna happen.
 
No, allopathic schools have already been told that they need to increase their enrollment by 30% to keep up with the demand for physicians.

15%, actually, last I heard. And it's a *recommendation* from the AMA... as opposed to someone "telling" the schools what to do. And it's the first bump in a long while.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/38/a-05cme.pdf (page 31)

Every medical school in the US has to make a "profit" somehow or they will be in trouble. If a med school is consistently operating in the red, then heads will roll. Would it surprise you to learn that companies like Amazon.com often don't make or pay out profits at all? The investors make money by selling the shares that they own as the share values increase, but they don't actually get dividends. They may operate at a loss or the "profits" get re-invested into the company so that it can continue to grow. Who says RVU won't do the same?

Are you aware of how Caribbean schools operate? Do you really think they just reinvest all of their profits?

And you may accuse me of weak comparisons, but comparing RVU to Amazon... come on man.

Maybe I'm being too doom-and-gloom. I don't know. My theory hinges on whether or not more for-profit schools follow in RVU's footsteps. But why wouldn't they? DeVry and University of Phoenix are successful, just like all those for-profit Carribean schools, right? Will these businessmen abstain from entering the market and generating more profits for themselves out of some sort of goodwill?
 
15%, actually, last I heard. And it's a *recommendation* from the AMA... as opposed to someone "telling" the schools what to do. And it's the first bump in a long while.

A different source says "The Assn. of American Medical Colleges has asked allopathic medical schools, which in 2005 accepted about 17,000 students, to expand that by 30% by 2015."

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/site/free/prsc0918.htm

But the actual percentage or who says it really makes little difference. More physicians are needed in the next few years. While I personally don't agree with "for-profit" medical schools, the scenario you present is a bit far-fetched.
 
that article and this subject is old news...give them a fair chance already

You are very correct. I'm sorry for reposting it. My bad.

In other news related to this thread, this is pretty interesting:

From American Medical News,

Growing awareness of an impending physician shortage is partially behind an all-time high in medical school interest, experts say. So is an upcoming generation of college graduates with a strong sense of altruism, a growing population and a cyclical upswing tied to a softer economy.

Allopathic medical schools saw 31,946 first-time applicants for the 2007-08 academic year, according to the Assn. of American Medical Colleges. It reflects an 8% increase over 2006-07.

The American Assn. of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine also saw its applicant pool reach a record level for the 2007-08 academic year, with 11,500 candidates.

Nationally, the allopathic 2007-08 class reached nearly 17,800 students, a 2.3% increase from last year. Osteopathic schools saw the size of first-year classes grow 11.8% to 4,300, as new schools opened in Arizona, New York and Tennessee.

Here's a link to the original article, publish in Nov 5th, 2007 of Amednews.com:
Record number vied for 2007-08 medical school slots



bth
 
Looks like the for profit is a model that is catching on....Sullivan University is a for profit school in Louisville, Kentucky and they have a new pharmacy school. Provisional accredition and the works...

Nobody said a peep when they opened their school but I guess there is a big difference between pharmacy and medicine.

Much ado about nothing?
 
Looks like the for profit is a model that is catching on....Sullivan University is a for profit school in Louisville, Kentucky and they have a new pharmacy school. Provisional accredition and the works...

Nobody said a peep when they opened their school but I guess there is a big difference between pharmacy and medicine.

Much ado about nothing?

Because there have been for-profit pharm schools for a while?

Feel free to jump into the pharm forums and read about some of the issues facing them which many blame on having too many schools.
 
Because there have been for-profit pharm schools for a while?

Feel free to jump into the pharm forums and read about some of the issues facing them which many blame on having too many schools.
Eh. The people who post that junk in pharm are also paranoid about being replaced robots and all sorts of other things that have nothing to do with reality.

The accreditation standards need to ensure a quality experience for DO students regardless of whether or not their school is for profit. Pharmacy has had to change some things in recent years and your profession may well have to do the same.
 
This is hilarious! People have no stinkin' idea what a DO is, they've never heard of it, they think it's a bogus degree (remember Paris' doc?), yet the opening of a DO school for profit will doom this invisible profession.

I'm looking forward to seeing RVU grow into a good, solid DO school. Then I'm going to resurrect this thread!

So far so good. As promised, things are looking good for the school. Rise old thread! Awaken from your slumber! :D

By the way, RVU was the osteopathic school that had the most graduates enter osteopathic residencies this past match, compared to all other schools. Interpret this as you will, but this is good to support the profession.

Their matches are solid for a new school, too.

I'm interested to see how the school does in the near future as more classes graduate. Will they start gravitating towards ACGME residencies more? Will the matches change?

See the following thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897556
 
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Dear Med student...

Do you think I don't know what I am talking about?? I have interviewed there and was told exactly what I posted. Those professors that are "paid very well" have to supplement thier teaching salary. That is not to say that academic salaries are not supplemented at other schools. They are, but most schools pay much better AND provide more support for the professor in helping them set up research and clinical opportunities. There are other schools that are the same and I am currently teaching at one and had hoped to move to a better situation.
I really liked the people at TOURO especially Dr Foy.....I wanted to work there and felt I had alot to give the school. I am glad the students did well on thier Boards....but you know....that is more a function of the students and thier ability to study and understand the material taught. I am not denigrating the school itself...

I cant speak for the other two, but Im a personal friend with one of the professors at the NY one. For the sake of shielding him/her from identification on here I wont explain *how* I got to know them, because it would give away which professor I'm referring to, but they stated that they are teaching at touroCOM-NY because it paid "much more" than PCOM, NYCOM or UMDNJSOM did for their position, and is not afraid to say that the paycheck was what made the decision for them. I have *zero* clue what CA and NV branches are like, nor do I know what "much more" means. except that its more than the three closest COMs to Touro-NY.

But by your reference to a Dr. Foy, I assume you are specifically talking about one of the other two branches.

carry on.
 
i appreciate the commitment to your 5 year plan.

So far so good. As promised, things are looking good for the school. Rise old thread! Awaken from your slumber! :D

By the way, RVU was the osteopathic school that had the most graduates enter osteopathic residencies this past match, compared to all other schools. Interpret this as you will, but this is good to support the profession.

Their matches are solid for a new school, too.

I'm interested to see how the school does in the near future as more classes graduate. Will they start gravitating towards ACGME residencies more? Will the matches change?

See the following thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897556
 
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So far so good. As promised, things are looking good for the school. Rise old thread! Awaken from your slumber! :D

And another 5 years or so have passed and the osteopathic profession has not disappeared or imploded, RVU students are doing well and representing the profession proudly. The government hasn't taken over control of osteopathic schools, and the Caribbean isn't full of for-profit DO schools.

Let's see what the osteopathic profession looks like in 2022, if that evil RVU school is still in business. See you then! OK, thread, back to sleep now...
 
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And another 5 years or so have passed and the osteopathic profession has not disappeared or imploded, RVU students are doing well and representing the profession proudly. The government hasn't taken over control of osteopathic schools, and the Caribbean isn't full of for-profit DO schools.

Let's see what the osteopathic profession looks like in 2022, if that evil RVU school is still in business. See you then! OK, thread, back to sleep now...

Normally I'm anti necro-bumping but this was solid.
 
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Agreed. It is just nice to see something positive in this forum for a change.
 
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I don't know, personally I'm not for for-profit medical education. I think it's blatantly antithetical to the way medical education should be. Even if a lot of non-profit schools function to pay their highest earners a ton, I don't like the idea of a school's model actually being founded on that principle.

And we are kind of seeing an explosion of for-profit medical schools. BCOM, CNU, and the host of others that are in the application process on both the MD and DO side.

To be clear also, this says nothing about the quality of graduates or students at RVU, BCOM, or anywhere. They are just like the rest of us, trying to get through med school, putting in the majority of effort, and succeeding because of that effort. I'm just not a fan of Tien, what he did with AUC, or the fact that he's set this precedent for American medical education.
 
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I don't know, personally I'm not for for-profit medical education. I think it's blatantly antithetical to the way medical education should be. Even if a lot of non-profit schools function to pay their highest earners a ton, I don't like the idea of a school's model actually being founded on that principle..
Think of it like this. All schools are for-profit. The only difference is that the "for-profit" ones are honest about it.
 
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