Rolling the USMLE for DOs one more time

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Future DOc, Jan 24, 2000.

  1. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Okay, I know this topic was discussed on a separate post, but I just want to your opinions (esp any 3rd, 4th, & Residents)on a couple of questions I had.

    As some of you know, I am a 2nd year at WesternU/COMP & I am currently prepping for the COMLEX Step 1 in June. I am also considering the USMLE although I understand that it really is a waste of time considering that a lot of ACGME residencies accept the COMLEX (why put yourself through more torture). I have not decided yet on the AOA internship/residency situation although I would like to pursue that route. My main concern at this point is securing the BEST possible residency programs I can get, whether it be AOA or ACGME. I am also more concerned with the # of available slots because I want a better chance at securing a position. By the sound of all this, it seems like ACGME is the best route.

    My questions: If I decide to take both the USMLE & COMLEX Step 1 & hypothetically I passed both but I did a lot better on the COMLEX. How much of a factor is that when competing for primary care ACGME residency slots? My thinking is that it can hurt my chances more as opposed to just taking the COMLEX alone & kicking butt on it. Are my impressions accurate?

    Lastly, I've been hearing/reading that when applying for residency its usually the USMLE or COMLEX Step 1 thats ONLY required and not Step 2. My impressions are if you kick-butt in the Step 1 leave it at that when applying for residency. After securing the slot, then take Step 2. I've heard/read that if you do very well on Step 1 but so-so on Step 2 that can hurt you somewhat when applying for residency. The only time to take Step 2 concerning residency is if your Step 1 scores are so-so. If you do a lot better on Step 2, your chances are even better Are my impressions accurate?

    Sorry for all the questions...I just need anyones imput especially folks who have driven through this path already. I want to make sure my fact-sheet is updated & accurate. Thanks for any comments given!!! [​IMG]

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  2. Doctor TRuth

    Doctor TRuth Senior Member
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    I want to know the same thing as well.....
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. Paul's Boutique

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    I, too, would appreciate it... Any words from the wise?
     
  4. Deb

    Deb Senior Member
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    Future DOc

    Your impressions are accurate. If you kick butt on the COMLEX alone, you should
    be in fine shape, however, if you also take the USMLE and do poorly it may hurt
    your chances. In other words, most programs (depending on the specialty) have no
    problem using COMLEX scores, but if you've taken the USMLE they'll automatically
    use that number. Keep in mind though that if you do well on one you will probably
    also do well on the other.

    That being said, I'll tell you that I didn't take the USMLE. I thought about it
    but decided I didn't need the added stress or expense. Also, I spoke to reps at
    some of the programs I'm interested in and they assured me that my COMLEX score
    would suffice. So if you're still undecided, you might contact a few programs.
    The input I received convinced me I didn't need to take the USMLE.

    Lastly, regarding step II, whether or not you'll have to take it before submitting
    apps depends on your school. At UHS we're required to take step II this summer,
    so we'll have to submit those numbers. From what I've heard, if you take the test,
    you must submit your scores (if this info is incorrect please let me know). Oh
    well...at least it'll be over with.

    Hope this info helps.

    Deb MS-3
     
  5. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Thanks, Deb.....that was very helpful.

    So, my impressions were accurate concerning taking both the COMLEX & USMLE Step 1. I am defintely taking the COMLEX this June (or else i can't be licensed as a DO), but I was thinking about the USMLE also. I just heard different views about what happens if you do poorly in the USMLE, but awesome in the COMLEX. I understand that most likely there will be no difference in scores considering that you are prepping in the same fashion for both w/ the exception of OMT. I just don't want to risk it because who knows....you could have a bad day or feel awful the day of the USMLE & not perform to the best of your ability. I know that if you pass either COMLEX or USMLE, you can't re-take it to improve your scores. Ooohh, tough call!!! I guess I'll just focus on the COMLEX solely.

    Lastly, my medical school only requires Step 1 for graduation. I think they have changed that for Class of 2003 & the rest of the upcoming classes to require that they sit for both Step 1 & 2 for grad. Wow, that makes adds quite a bit of more pressure! Oh well...I'll just focus on the COMLEX only at this point & investigate the best residency programs for me (AOA or ACGME)

    Thanks again...anyone else have anything to comment on? Please fill free to reply-I like to hear people's view on the situation esp current DO students or prospective DO students. This also applies to you all as well.

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  6. spunkydoc

    spunkydoc Senior Member
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    there is still a lot of rumor about there about validation of COMLEX, perception of COMLEX in the allopathic world..

    check with programs in which you are really interested..honestly, the COMLEX is so poorly written and so draining that you will likely be too pooped out to endure yet another gruel with the USMLE..as time goes by and you put it off, you will eventually bail..that seems to have been the trend this last year..

    consider this: if some allopathic program wil not take you b/c of COMLEX w/o USMLE, do you really want to attend a program that clearly discriminates against DO's from the outset?

    good luck
     
  7. Test Boy

    Test Boy Senior Member
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    What are the consequences if you did mediocre on the COMLEX but did pretty well on the USMLE? How will that be looked upon?
     
  8. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Good point, spunkydoc....I was just thinking about that as well. I was speaking to a lot of my 2nd year collegues the other day about both exams & we all had the general consensus that it will be extremely trying on you to sit for both examinations. Our lives are very stressful at this point to try & survive the rest of the 2nd yr, finalize rotation ste-ups, & then prep for step 1 at the same time. Talk about NUTS!!!

    I agree w/ you on being w/ certain allopathic programs not accepting the COMLEX. Interestingly, I have not seen (yet) certain allopathic programs turning you away b/c you didn't take the USLME-even very well known ones in Cali...Loma Linda, USC, UC Irvine, & the like have accepted DOs into their residncy programs w/out taking the USMLE. I have not decided where I want to do my residency just yet, but I'll will definitely take that into consideration when the time comes.

    To Test Boy: Again, it all depends on which program you are eyeing. If you are dead set on doing AOA residency & there are not very few slots, you better have competitive COMLEX numbers to contend with. One reason a lot of DOs do an AMA residency instead is because of the better chances in matching on certain programs than AOA. Also, the BEST possible program (AMA or AOA)you can match with should be in the forefront, not whether they were AMA or AOA. Remember that you can take all the USMLE Steps & pass 'em all, but if you are a DO student & you don't pass your own boards...getting a license will be nearly impossible.

    If you are dead set on a particular AMA program that they want you to take the USMLE as well, your chances are great if you have awesome USMLE scores & you can still get your license if you pass the COMLEX as well. However, like spunkydoc & I were discussing, taking both exams will be unlike anything you have experienced before. So, the big question I am wondering is if its worth it to put myself through that. It true that some allopathic programs will ask you for your USMLE scores but there are many other allopathic programs (like the ones I mentioned above) also that don't & the COMLEX will suffice. It all depends on your plans...

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  9. Newdoc2002

    Newdoc2002 Senior Member
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    Easy there future Doc. I don't think a blind study of one (sorry Deb) makes all your assumptions correct. The decision to take the USMLE should be based on where you will be applying and what residency you want.

    I am currently a student at TCOM and IF I am correct, we usually have the greatest percentage of DO students (~60-75%) taking the USMLE from each class with a respectable passing rate but usually below our passing rates for the COMLEX. So, there is a lot of "wisdom" running around the halls, and you can usually get a good census opinion. We even did a survey of the 3rd year class.

    Most people have issue with the different styles of the two test and not so much content. The recent addition of the CBT for the USMLE really threw a monkey wrench into the test prep and many students did not feel preped for taking such a test and consequently hurt their scores. Keep these issues in mind.

    I have personally spoken with many AMA residency program directors and representatives at our annual "Internship and Residency Fair". I have gotten different opinions from different specialties. And even a FP program director says while not absolutely necessary, he likes to see a USMLE score to help level the field. Although I think this may just be ignorance of the COMLEX. Although, who can blame him when residency directors see a lower USMLE passing rate for DO students but don't bother to looking into why. That's for another forum.

    I know it's hard to decide now, but it is only money ($340)and you are looking at your future. With the advent of computer based testing, you may even decide to take the USMLE after you receive your COMLEX step 1 scores. If they place you near the top, the USMLE may not be needed.
    Just my opinion. Good luck!

     
  10. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Newdoc2002, thanks for responding!!

    Most of the things that you posted, I know already. I did not decide that I was correct based on one a person. I have spoke to a lot of upperclassmen & residents and got their opinions on it.

    Overall, they plain put it that if you did very well on the COMLEX Step1, there is no need to take the USMLE because 95+ ACGME including the extremely competitive ones in southern cali will take you even if you didn't take the USMLE. A lot of WesternU/COMP alumni are proof of that. The people I spoke with generally stated that when applying to ACGME programs, kicking butt in the COMLEX solely will give you more of an edge than kicking butt in the COMLEX but just passing the USMLE barely.

    I was just trying to hear more opinions from other people on this board esp 3rd/4th/Interns/Residents from other parts of the country & see what they think.

    I was told that if you inquire about a ACGME program & they REQUIRE/INSIST that you take the USMLE, they are probably not very DO-friendly anyway. Therefore, you should just set you sights somewhere else because there are other places that will still take you w/out having takien the USMLE.

    The same goes for the Step 2 in relation to Step 1 (either COMLEX or USMLE). If you did very well on Step 1, its probably wise to not sit for the Step 2 (unless your school requires it for graduation) until after you have landed the residency slot.

    Applying for residency is like a game. To win, you have to be strategic & keen. Check out everything you need to know & then make a plan so you can be successful at accomplishing it.

    By the way, you mentioned that majority of the classes at TCOM take the USMLE with a relatively lower passing rate than the COMLEX, how are they doing landing ACGME slots through that approach? Very successful? or small percentage? I am interested in knowing because majority of the WesternU/COMP grads I spoke with say that they never had a prob landing ACGME just taking the COMLEX alone. The resistance they have encountered (the ones who INSISTED on taking the USMLE), they just didn't consider & went to the ones that did.

    Again, if I am not mistaken, 95+% ACGME accept COMLEX alone. That leaves just 5% that require you to take the USMLE. Its very easy, just don't go to the 5% residency programs!!

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  11. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    I wouldn't assume that schools that want a USMLE score are "DO unfriendly." One possible explanation that has already been mentioned is that since they deal primarily with allopaths, they want to be fair when it comes to awarding residencies. You wouldn't want someone to get into medical school having taken a test other than the MCAT, so why should the allopathic residency directors allow us into their programs without taking their branch's equivalent entrance test, the USMLE.

    Honestly, would DO residencies allow a person to come from Harvard with a 99th-percentile USMLE and no COMLEX? If the answer is no--and I am almost sure that it is--then how can you claim discrimination when we try to do it in the reverse direction? Sounds like more whining. Just get in there and kick some ass on those exams and leave the crying to the little kids you tend to in clinic. The only way to change allopathy's perspective of osteopathy is to beat (or at least tie) them at their own game. You can start by thrashing the USMLE Step One.

    [This message has been edited by Lennox (edited 01-29-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Lennox (edited 01-29-2000).]
     
  12. dcdo

    dcdo Senior Member
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    The point of this string is not to whine or complain about discrimination, but is just about the practicality of taking both tests. I would guess that the majority of the people here would be happy if all they had to do was take USMLE. Unfortunately the AOA/licensing board MAKES us take COMLEX. I don't think anyone would dispute that taking 2 board exams is a royal pain in the ass.

    Granted,plenty of whining DOES occur on this board but I don't think it applies here.

    [This message has been edited by dcdo (edited 01-29-2000).]
     
  13. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    True, griping isn't a major issue on this thread. But, as you noted, it goes on in a lot of others. My point is simply to take the bull by the horns by taking the USMLE regardless of whether or not you need it. Unless people are afraid that they'll be "found out" by the allopaths, they shouldn't have any problem with doing it.

    Any responsible, informed person will tell you that, especially when it comes to popular/competitive residencies, we'll be at a disadvantage. It may be hard to accept but it's the truth and trying to ignore it or dismiss it as heresay is foolhardy. It does exist and we have to take steps to combat it. Burying our heads in the sand, like other posters imply is correct. Rob said: "If you don't get the place you want it's because of you, not your degree." Bull****. I have friends who have family on staff at UCSD and they were told point-blank that DOs and FMGs don't get IM positions.

    Medical education is a very costly, long-lasting endeavor, and it's only fair to present all facets of it to those who are contemplating a career in the field. Just like you'd want to know the cost of the school, you ought to know the opportunities that it will afford you when you're done. And hearing nonsense like I've read that tells the pre-med that you're good to go with a DO degree is a bit misleading. You have great opportunities, sure, but to a fair number of people you'll always be a person who didn't get into the main branch of medicine. Sounds pretty much like the situation for most of us, doesn't it?
     
  14. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Lennox...I believe I had asked you this question NUMEROUS TIMES but have yet to receive an answer, ARE YOU CURRENTLY A 3RD/4TH YEAR DO MEDICAL STUDENT? ARE YOU CURRENTLY A DO INTERN/RESIDENT? ARE YOU EVEN IN MEDICAL SCHOOL AT ALL PRESENTLY? If not, please don't try to comment on things I believe you have absoltely no clue about. You can't begin to phantom what it's like out there when you're not even a medical student..let alone a DO medical student.

    I didn't mean to say that AMA residencies who require or insist that you take USMLE are not DO friendly, but there is a question of WHY do I have to take their boards? The COMLEX was designed to be AS equivalent to the USMLE. My profession requires me to take my own boards to become licensed & ALL 49 states except Louisiana allow me to practice as a physician w/out the USMLE, AND 95% of ACGME DON't require me to take it to be in their program. So, why should I? To prove I am just as good as an MD!!! Yeah, whatever. I am not training to become an MD, so why do I need to take their own exams.

    You mentioned a lot of whining, but like dcdo said, this is not whining but a perfect logical discussion that many DO medical students face (like you even know) but noone ever tells us anything because like in medical world you have to learn everything on your own.

    You said that you have friends on the UCSD staff who doesn't accept any DOs or IMGs into their IM program. Now, WHO'S not being freindly!!! I guess that's one of the 5% programs I was earlier refering too. Take note fellow DOs!!!

    If you are not going to contribute anything worthwhile to the people on this thread that can learn a lot about what we need to do concerning the USMLE, GET OUT!!! A lot of your rambbling, bashing, & heavy critizing are just wasted space, so please spare us that!!

    I would love to have a more further discussion with you concerning the life of a DO medical student or even an MD medical student but you are obviously unarmed!!! I am through reading anymore of your responses!!! I've moved on!!!

    My apologies to everyone else for being critical...I didn't mean too!!!

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  15. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    Rob,

    Glad to hear that you'll no longer write "critiques" of my posts, all of which have been based upon reliably obtained information.

    Perhaps some people would like to go to UCSD, and the fact that they can't with a DO ought to be of some concern. After all, it's not like I'm saying that some podunk school is rejecting DOs--this is UCSD, for God's sake. I would think that after living in Pomona for several years that the thought of being able to walk around in the evening without worrying about your safety would be attractive. UCSD has that and much more to offer. But not to a DO in internal medicine.


    I don't need to be at COMP to hear the stories that you're not doubt hearing about all of the doors that are open to people from your school. For that, I have friends who have actually graduated, unlike yourself where it seems that your information comes to us via a second-year student. Please allow my friends who've finished school--DO and MD alike--some credit. And by the way, you don't have to be a DO yourself to know what it's like to get a residency with that degree. Plenty of people will know what sorts of options are available to us. So stop acting like this is some secret society where you must be a DO student in order to comment on matters that are pertinent to the profession.

    I never intended to have a war of words with you. I incorrectly assumed that you were putting down my phlebotomy training. For that mistake I am sorry. But I will continue to debunk the overly enthusiastic prognoses that you regularly spill onto this site with near-religious zeal. Don't take these things so personally. I'm in the same boat as you, with all of the restrictions that a DO degree will impose. These include:

    1. Inability to sign-off for a certificate of health for a student heading overseas. This is because we aren't recognized by the vast majority of countries as physicians. In fact, from what I heard from a DO at MSU, in Europe only Germany looks at us as real doctors.

    If you don't believe me then do some research on the matter. It's galling, I know, but it's true.

    2. Residencies that are hard for MDs to get will be harder for us. A 95th percentile USMLE means more than a 95th percentile COMLEX. Why? Because of the caliber of students taking it. Those same people who got high MCATs--and went to top MD schools--are usually getting the top USMLEs. Those who didn't tend to go to DO schools. I don't see any reason for them to get a lot smarter in the interim between the MCAT and a licensing exam. Do you really believe that Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF/Standford/you-name-the-school will say, "Yeah, you did well on the DO boards. And you're a really nice guy, so we'll take you over a guy from MD with the same score on the USMLE?" They know the reasons people end up at DO schools and unfortunately, the burning desire to be labelled as a second-class doc is not among them.

    Mind you I don't subscribe to the theory that a DO is an unreliable source of health care. But I'm not the one you need to convince. Rather, it's the public and our friends in allopathic schools/hospitals.


    Although I frequently find fault with your posts, I do admire your enthusiasm. I wish you well with your endeavors.




    [This message has been edited by Lennox (edited 01-30-2000).]
     
  16. dcdo

    dcdo Senior Member
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    And now for some positive info....

    A friend of mine since 7th grade from COMP did a residency in ER at UCI and is now also doing pediatrics at UCI. I don't know if he took USMLE, I guess I'll have to ask. Also, if you look on the web at different residency programs you will find that most of them do have DO's in them. Not to say that discrimination doesn't exist out there, but it's not a closed world.
     
  17. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Lennox...I never intended to have any controversial debate with you or anyone. I am just sharing what I know & seen.

    Yes, I may be "just a second-year" in your eyes by nonetheless I AM a medical student. I am in a medical program & I am undergoing all the things that is entailed in the life of a 2nd year student physician. You on the other hand have yet to taste it so please give me a little credit for my position. You don't know the life of a medical student or an intern/resident....esp a DO. I admit I don't know the life of the latter, but I do know the former.

    Again, you keep stating your friends, but I just have to wonder WHY all of your friends are adventuring through the paths & hurdles of medicine you are claiming and you are still where your are! Is it credible? Sound dumbfounded to me?

    You state about DO opportunities oversees & how they are viewed as just chiropractors & not full physicians except in Germany. Who cares? I don't intend to practice oversees so spare me that comment. I don't think majority posting on these boards will go that route either so its not worth our time!!

    I never said the all grads that come from COMP or any other osteopathic medical school never run into resistance. If they do, break through it!! You say you want to become a DO but all that you have stated are just mere excuses. I never make any excuses for anything!!! I never said that I will never hit hurdles, but that's what I have been doing my whole life. Never say never, buddy if you want to survive especially in the world of medicine.

    Lee Burnett DO posted on previous threads here & stated that he & a couple of his classmates didn't take the USMLE & are all residents at USC ER, UCI Family Practice, UC Davis Family Practice. Bradon Attkinson DO also posts here and is a resident at UCSF Family practice program. Adam Attoun DO is currently a resident at Loma Linda Radiology program & is also a clinical professor at the medical school there. Andrew Pumerantz DO is clinical professor for Internal Med/Infectious Diseases at Yale Med School & lastly John Steinnman DO is only one of few physicians (MD or DO) in the country that is a spinal surgeon & is a professor at Loma Linda & COMP. How do I know this? Most of them have lectured to us here or I have spoked with. So, I have seen the possibilities & ignored what you claim as resistance.

    You have stated that I may give "overly enthusiatic prognoses" concerning the DO profession, but look above, buddy!!! Explain to me why DOs are able to be in such positions that you state are never possible (ie UCSD program)? Again, it doesn't seem to be the title to me but the person himself/herself.

    You can believe what you want to believe, but I am no doubt experiencing medical school & will later experience rotations & residency. So, I do have some credibility to what I have to say. You are on the other hand NOT a medical student (considering that you never answered my ques 3X)so YOU DON'T KNOW WHATS IT LIKE. Until you get your feet wet, I still can't understand how YOU KNOW how things are. Its like you saying how vacationing in the Bahamas is wonderful & beautiful when you never even been there.

    Get more experiences first (like you phlebotomy situation) before you comment!!!

    dcdo: good input!!!

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  18. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    Rob:

    Get a life. You mentioned several people out of many thousands--what about the rest? Surely you don't think that you'll end up at Yale. That would be a pretty tall order for someone who says things like: "You can't begin to phantom what it's like out there..."

    "Phantom," Rob? Uh, I believe you meant "fathom." Instead of spending hours trying to promote osteopathy, why don't you pick up a dictionary. If not for my sake then for the sake of your patients. After all, they do need to know what you're talking about...and it's tough when their doctor doesn't even know what means what.

     
  19. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Lennox, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!! Enough is enough already, alright! You are obviously oblivious to anything I was saying earlier, so please get off the thread if you are not going to contribute something useful to the rest of your medical collegues!!!

    Your bashing attitude to most of the inquiries here is a total reflection of the type of person you are...and that demonstrates the type of doctor you will become (if you ever even get into med school). I have pity for YOUR patients!!! "What this, Mr Smith, you are not taking your glucotrol daily!! That's Bull****!!!!" Beware of this doctor everyone!

    Oh well....anyone else has anything more constructive & USEFUL to add? I may have misspelled a word or two, but I man enough to admit when I'm wrong. However, this person who uses words like "Bull****" or "S***" in his replies obviously has a lot of bitterness or insecurities. We're more mature than that, Lennox so if you are ready to be more helpful on the boards, just keep staying inside your little ignorant, arrogant, pre-med world until then, okay?

    Please, for the sake of up-coming DO students or any medical student, DON'T apply to medcine...esp osteopathic medicine. Your biterness will just be a burden plus you will be wasting a seat in a medical class. Leave it for someone worthwhile!!

    By the way, I do have a life...a medical student life. Something one day I HOPE you can TRY & experience [​IMG] Again, just like your phlebotomy situation, please get some WORTHWHILE expereinces first before you reply on things...

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  20. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    Boy Rob,

    You've figured me out. I use a bit of profanity, so I must be insecure. You're going to ace that pysch. rotation if you keep this up...

    Anyway, if you were even half as good a writer as you ought to be if you're going to call yourself a doc, then you wouldn't have written a post that would lead a person conclude that you might very well be talking about my phlebotomy experience.

    So far I've been on-hand to help pre-meds sift through the enormous amount of hyperbole that you regularly spew on this site. Face facts, Rob: In large part it's still an allopathic world. My pointing this out doesn't mean I'm bashing osteopathy. If you had an ounce of journalistic integrity you'd at least acknowledge that I voice my opinion that DOs are as competent as MDs. Get over your self-serving attitude. Out in the real world we're still a minority with all the problems that status implies. You're so hell-bent on preserving osteopathy from abuse that you run the risk of limiting its growth by trying to silence those who point out its weaknesses. Two of the most glaring of examples of this are the lack of public awareness and the sometimes discriminating allopathic world of mainstream American medicine.

    Try to realize that you don't have to be a second-year in the heart of Pomona in order to know what one's getting into. If I am going to spend over $100K then you'd expect that I would look into what the profession offers me. I did, and one way was to talk to not only the DOs who wrote me letters of rec. but to my friends who were already in the schools...

    You have said repeatedly that you're done talking but you always respond to my posts. I'm done arguing with you on this thread. I'm sure we'll be talking again, though.



    [This message has been edited by Lennox (edited 01-30-2000).]
     
  21. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Gosh, What a waste of space!!!!

    I know I originally started this thread, but I really want more USEFUL & TRUTHFUL info this time.....please no more unwanted comments!!!

    ANYONE ELSE have anything to say about my original posts concerning DOs & the USMLE....someone who actually has SOME REAL experiences and wouldn't mind commenting. Thanks!!

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  22. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    Dude,

    I have yet to take either of the boards; that much is true. But why can't I pass on the information culled from my friends who are further in DO school than you are? Would it have anything to do with the fact that it's less-than-overwhelmingly enthusiastic?

    I really have to wonder about this mindset. Anything that is said that is even slightly upsetting is instantly shrugged off because the source--in this case me--isn't in DO school--yet. It matters not a bit to you that my friends who are DOs told it to me. I didn't make it up just to cause consternation.

    If you think that discrimination isn't something to be concerned about that's your problem. But the interviewers that I had at MSU told me that it's out there in Wisconsin, the Dakotas, Arkansas, etc. Now you may not want to practice there, but for f*ck's sake, why don't you allow for the fact that others might and stop telling me that regional limitations aren't to worry about.

    There are obviously people who consider us second-rate. Your post involved the taking of another branch of medicine's board exam. The only reason someone would consider such an arduous undertaking is to prove themselves to that group of people--allopaths, in this case. And I said let's ram home the point with maximum clarity by doing well on both tests.

    I hope that you toughen up a bit before you deal with allopaths who will no doubt push your buttons. God knows, you've got more than your share, Robert.
     
  23. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member
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    Lennox, lets end this right here, okay! I am man enough to extend my peace offering!!

    You are right that you are entitled to offer any input that fellow medical collegues may want to hear. But you have got to realize that what you state MOST of the time is just 50% of the truth. You need more pieces to the complete the puzzle!

    Yes, I know there is discrimination out there....there has been discrimination everywhere for thousands of years. But what are you going to do if you are faced with such an obstacle? By reading most of your posts, it sounds like you're afraid to face it & making more excuses for it.

    I, on the other hand, realize that I will face it one day, but what am I going to do...run away!! Not me, buddy!!! I have dealt with much worse obstacles in my life & a little discrimination is not going to stop me.

    Like I mentioned before, if you are faced with a barrier, break through it!!! Why not!! I have mentioned a few DOs above among many who have successfully tapped into the allopathic world...even without taking the USMLE. Yes, they most likely did run into discrimination like you stated, but they have conquered it!!! Could you please explain to me why that is when you say there are so much discrimination out there for DOs?

    Your few DO friends doesn't speak for the majority, so please quit telling up-coming hopefuls things that are only 50% truthful. Yes, they may be ahead of the game than I am, but I am still ahead of YOU. So, please give me a little credit, alright!!

    Lastly, I will apologize about your phlebotomy situation, but your slandering, bashing, degrading, & cursing especially at me is not appreciated at all. I have very tough skin, but I am sure the majority on these boards don't appeciate comments like that one bit.

    You can say & believe what you want to, but I can do the same thing as well! Most of the people who read & posts on these threads rely on some sound input, if possible. So, you have the right to respond to anything with your view, but if I don't see it that way, I am obliged to do the same as well. PEACE!!

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP Class of 2002
     
  24. Lennox

    Lennox Member
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    I fail to see how I am encouraging you to "run away" by advising that you take the USMLE. If you've learned your medical school lessons thoroughly then you ought to be able to ace this test, too. Hey, it's too bad that some of them look down on us but being able to say, "I scored in the 90th percentile. How did you do?" would go along way towards equalizing the situation.

    Osteopathy is my future, just like it is yours. I have a vested interest in its advancement. Infighting only wastes our time and distracts us from our goal of promoting the field.

    Regarding my angry posts, I apologize for any feelings that were hurt. I'm sure you understand how easy it is to get carried away. Nonetheless, I shouldn't have been rude to you.



    [This message has been edited by Lennox (edited 01-31-2000).]
     
  25. Paul's Boutique

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    DING DING DING!!! It's the end of the 15th round in the square circle, folks! The judges have decided, and the TKO goes to...

    Dr. TRuth!!!
     
  26. HW

    HW Junior Member

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    OK, here's my 2 cents. I'm a 4th year at TCOM and a higher percentage of my school's students do take the USMLE. I took the COMLEX and USMLE, both steps I and II. My reasoning was that I couldn't be absolutely 100% sure about what I would do for residency and where I would want to go (can anyone at the end of their 2nd year when they've yet to begin rotations and see different hospitals?)
    I only applied to ACGME residencies and they all appreciated me taking the USMLE, not becaue of DO prejudice. The reason is that 95% of applicants are MD students taking the USMLE, and they have no clue about the COMLEX. For the most part they just know that we have to take and pass it to graduate and get liscenced, but to compare one applicant to another...it isn't that helpful.
    So I wanted to compete, and I took both tests. Yeah, its tough...but it was my choice not to close any doors to my future.
    And its paid off, it turns out that it was the best thing for me. I would have never even gotten an interview had I not taken the USMLE for what's ended up to be my #1 choice. Tulane is in Lousianna which requires USMLE for licensure...so applicants must have it, and it has nothing to do with DO prejudice.
    My advice is to try not to narrow your options too early on. I think the USMLE was helpful for me. And I think the CBT is great because its only a one-day test and you pace yourself as you like. And also don't try to think that you could put off taking the step I to another year...it'd be way too difficult and practically know who plans to do that actually does it.
    There it is, my opinion.

    ------------------
    hw
     
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  27. DO Boy

    DO Boy Senior Member
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    Thank you for that informative post! I've been wondering for some time now, what I was going to do about USMLE and COMLEX.

    To me, if taking two extremely difficult tests and scoring well on them is a at all a possibility for me, I'm all for it.

    But for all I know, I could bomb my classwork and be disadvantaged by taking the USMLE. We'll see after our 1st and 2nd years...

    Wish me luck!


    DO Boy
    TCOM 04

    By the way HW, what residency did you get at Tulane? FP, IM, OBGYN, etc?
     
  28. RBorhani

    RBorhani Emergency Physician
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    I just went through the ACGME interview process for emergency medicine. If you want to apply to a competitive residency such as emergency medicine and you want to apply in the western or southern part of the country then you should take the USMLE. I only took the comlex and I did well on the exam, I did have couple of programs tell me that they really did not know how to compare my COMLEX score to USMLE (this after they grant me an interview!) and few programs in Calif (univ of Calf programs) rejected me and pointed out that a major factor was the lack of USMLE score. UCI for example has interviews few DO students for Emergency Medicine this year but they have all taken the usmle. But for the most part none of the other programs had any problems with my COMLEX scores. If you want to apply to less competitive residencies such as family med, im, psych, peds, etc then you should have no problem ?.a lot of my friends have done that they all got interviews with top programs. If you want to apply to real competitive residency i.e. urology, ortho, derm, etc then you will really hurt yourself if you don?t take the usmle. Also if you do well on part one my suggestion is not to take part II till march of your 4th year. You can only hurt yourself if you don?t do as well as you did on part one. However, if you don?t do so well on part one then you should take part II in aug of your 3rd year so you can show the residency programs that you have improved. Hope this helps a bit?
    Rez B.
     
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  29. DO Boy

    DO Boy Senior Member
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    To me, Dr. Borhani, you have provided the most valuable piece of information concerning whether or not to take the USMLE. I now know exactly what I'm going to do (depending on what residency I decide!).

    Thanks for that great post, and good luck on the Match (don't the results come in March?)

    DO Boy
    A fresh, very naive, and excited incoming first year med student (I wonder how much of this will remain during my intership? I'll let you know in four years!).


     
  30. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Verified Account 10+ Year Member

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    If you're going to go through the pleasure of preparing for the boards, just take both exams and get it over with! The USMLE is now computer based and steps I and II can be hacked out in one afternoon each at a local Silva learning center. I think that the recognition of the COMLEX will improve over the next 5-10 years, but until then it is wise to just cover all your bases and take both tests.
     

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