Ross University resuming semester on cruise ship. How will this affect their residency chances?

[Windom Earle]

Haha yep, laughing at the idea of going to medical school on a prison barge (which, it's important to note, is not actually a real situation that is happening to real people) definitely makes me a horrible person.

Do you think they will be getting a brand new, top of the line ship filled with food and entertainment or something that is leftover and cant make any money by running cruises so it running something more akin to something converted into prison barge like sits off Rikers Island? I am sure the excitement will wear off when you are smelling the low tide mud flats wafting over the deck

Just for the record, this is the name of the ship: Excellent Grandi Navi Veloci

I can't post links for some reason, but a Google search will show you just how nice the cruise ship is. Also, it appears as though students will be allowed to leave the ship whenever it is docked for groceries, to socialize, study at the Vet school, etc. Also, the plan is to finish this semester on the cruise ship, and then return to the island for the Spring.

With that being said, I agree with most of you. This is not the right environment for medical education. I can only imagine what the attrition rate will be now.

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[Lannister]

Just for the record, this is the name of the ship: Excellent Grandi Navi Veloci

I can't post links for some reason, but a Google search will show you just how nice the cruise ship is. Also, it appears as though students will be allowed to leave the ship whenever it is docked for groceries, to socialize, study at the Vet school, etc. Also, the plan is to finish this semester on the cruise ship, and then return to the island for the Spring.

With that being said, I agree with most of you. This is not the right environment for medical education. I can only imagine what the attrition rate will be now.

Ah yeah the prison barge thing was definitely a joke, the real ship looks decent. I feel sorry for the people who are prone to seasickness Is the ship actually going to travel around or will it just sit in port?

 

[Windom Earle]

Ah yeah the prison barge thing was definitely a joke, the real ship looks decent. I feel sorry for the people who are prone to seasickness Is the ship actually going to travel around or will it just sit in port?

This is from the Q and A on their website:

"31. Is there an option of living on St. Kitts instead of the cruise ship for students with motion sickness and other health issues?
The cruise ship will be docked near shore. Students will be provided housing via ship. Only in extremely extraordinary circumstances will RUSM consider securing land-based housing options."

 

[gonnif]

From the boat description with 1000 students in under 400 cabins, that prison barge may be more comfortable

 

[Terry Toma]

This whole thing is like the plot of a TV show making a last ditch effort to shake things up as ratings crash. "Hey,I know, when we come back for season 5, we should be on a cruise ship. Everything will be pretty much the same as season 4, just on a boat. We can make up some backstory about a storm or something and then just open episode one with this zany nautical medical school thing going on. We can create some opportunities for comedy and drama by packing 1,000 people into 400 rooms. That isn't too far fetched and unbelievable, is it?"

 

[Goro]

You should read their FAQ on Facebook. The use of internet will be limited to educational purposes only, meals are gonna be limited to 3x a day, and laundry is also limited and you HAVE to be roomed with other people potentially in a suit with no windows!

This ain’t no vacation.

This isn't just going to med school in a Third World country, it's going to med school in a Third World country's prison!

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

I agree, Ross grads already have the issues affecting all Off-Shore grads...

If they weren't off-shore before, they're certainly off-shore now.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The use of internet will be limited to educational purposes only,

So.... basically no Tinder.. However I guess it doesn't matter if everyone is within a tightly confined space

Ross plans to stick ~1000 students on a ship that has 387 cabins. For ~2.5 months. Sounds fun.

It's going to be quite the party. I heard a rumor it will be the site of Gronk's party cruise

I haven't actually been the Caribbean Islands before.

So why do you insist on recommending it to people?

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

So.... basically no Tinder.. However I guess it doesn't matter if everyone is within a tightly confined space



It's going to be quite the party. I heard a rumor it will be the site of Gronk's party cruise



So why do you insist on recommending it to people?

Because it's worth getting an MD even if you have to live in a third world country for 2 years.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Because it's worth getting an MD even if you have to live in a third world country for 2 years.

You keep thinking that. Reality is going to hit you like a train

 

[Weirdy]

Well since I did complete my basic sciences in the US, I haven't actually been the Caribbean Islands before. That being said, I have been told by some of my new classmates who have spent the last 2 years there that the school is very crafty about these sorts of things. In other words, they are aware they live in a place that is under threat from natural disasters so they prepare accordingly.

Craftiness does not equate to effectiveness.

Putting medical students on a cruise ship is not preparing accordingly.

They deserve better. Either call it off or do it correctly. Don't do it half-assed.

This mentality of half-assedness is the same reason why their attrition rate is so high.

 

[Goro]

Because it's worth getting an MD even if you have to live in a third world country for 2 years.

If you ask PDs, they'll prefer DOs over IMGs. Not everywhere, and there are PDs who prefer IMGS over DOs. But in fact, the data from them (source= http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf) is that you're likely to end up in Primary Care or Psych, just like, wait for it, if you were a DO, but only with much less chances.

So to summarize, IMG MD =/= US MD.

The Ross students have my sympathies, but they made their bunks, now they have to lie in them.

 

[gonnif]

You keep thinking that. Reality is going to hit you like a train

Or hit by a boat

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

You keep thinking that. Reality is going to hit you like a train

Yes I know that you have nothing but bad hopes for me in the future. Why don't you spend less time on this forum and worry about acing those boards first or else reality might hit you like a train.

I actually find this hostility quite amusing for no other reason than it reveals some of your true characters quite well. While it seems to be a minority of users here who like to bash foreign medical students and graduates (or anyone else who dares to place any importance on what degree they obtain), it is sad that this is the level of respect and collegiality that some of you have towards others.

 

[gonnif]

Yes I know that you have nothing but bad hopes for me in the future. Why don't you spend less time on this forum and worry about acing those boards first or else reality might hit you like a train.

I actually find this hostility quite amusing for no other reason than it reveals some of your true characters quite well. While it seems to be a minority of users here who like to bash foreign medical students and graduates (or anyone else who dares to place any importance on what degree they obtain), it is sad that this is the level of respect and collegiality that some of you have towards others.

My issue isnt bashing off-shore medical grads or docs, even with the ship. My issue as advisor is makes sure that those considering this path do so with their eyes open as to the risks, the cost, and the diminishing opportunities. as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

My issue isnt bashing off-shore medical grads or docs, even with the ship. My issue as advisor is makes sure that those considering this path do so with their eyes open as to the risks, the cost, and the diminishing opportunities. as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

Yes I have seen your preweitten recommendation many times. Something in it however doesn't make any sense to me. You say you would advise people to consider going abroad AFTER they fail to get into US medical schools twice and spend at least one year working on their applications in between (minimum of three years post college graduation). Wouldn't the smart thing to advise at that point be to pick another profession, as it is clear that that individual is unlikely to succeed in medical school?

 

[Weirdy]

Yes I have seen your preweitten recommendation many times. Something in it however doesn't make any sense to me. You say you would advise people to consider going abroad AFTER they fail to get into US medical schools twice and spend at least one year working on their applications in between (minimum of three years post college graduation). Wouldn't the smart thing to advise at that point be to pick another profession, as it is clear that that individual is unlikely to succeed in medical school?

This is elementary thinking.

Good advisors do not tell students to quit, at least until after all of their viable options are exhausted. And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit.

They may not like the fact that you chose the Caribbean, but they still need to respect the fact that you have power over your own decisions.

Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Do you think they will be getting a brand new, top of the line ship filled with food and entertainment or something that is leftover and cant make any money by running cruises so it running something more akin to something converted into prison barge like sits off Rikers Island? I am sure the excitement will wear off when you are smelling the low tide mud flats wafting over the deck
http://gcaptain.com/vernon-c-bain-prison-barge/

Sounds like the ship I did my last deployment on.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yes I have seen your preweitten recommendation many times. Something in it however doesn't make any sense to me. You say you would advise people to consider going abroad AFTER they fail to get into US medical schools twice and spend at least one year working on their applications in between (minimum of three years post college graduation). Wouldn't the smart thing to advise at that point be to pick another profession, as it is clear that that individual is unlikely to succeed in medical school?

Yes, I agree that most who go to the Caribbean should in fact pick another profession altogether.

Apropos of nothing, some of the heat you get around these parts (that I can tell anyway) is a bit over the top, but at the same time in your zeal to defend your decisions I think you make some pretty outlandish statements.

And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit. -snip- Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

No, if you have no evident future in a career a good advisor in fact should tell you to quit instead of wasting your literally priceless time, energy as well as money.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This is elementary thinking.

Good advisors do not tell students to quit, at least until after all of their viable options are exhausted. And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit.

They may not like the fact that you chose the Caribbean, but they still need to respect the fact that you have power over your own decisions.

Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

Exactly. You can present the facts—the risks and all the stats—and help them make an informed decision. It’s not your place to tell them to quit, but to give them the info, perhaps even tell them what you would do, and then let them live their lives.

 

[ciestar]

This is elementary thinking.

Good advisors do not tell students to quit, at least until after all of their viable options are exhausted. And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit.

They may not like the fact that you chose the Caribbean, but they still need to respect the fact that you have power over your own decisions.

Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

Hmm, what other profession also follows this thinking?

 

[gonnif]

Yes I have seen your preweitten recommendation many times. Something in it however doesn't make any sense to me. You say you would advise people to consider going abroad AFTER they fail to get into US medical schools twice and spend at least one year working on their applications in between (minimum of three years post college graduation). Wouldn't the smart thing to advise at that point be to pick another profession, as it is clear that that individual is unlikely to succeed in medical school?

If you read my comments carefully, you will see I say student shouldnt even consider off shore schools until after they have done the 2 cycles with repair in between. First of all, a large fraction of these students will either not complete repair or a do a second full cycle and give up before that. Others will try both cycles and still give up. Some will consider other medical fields during these 3-4 years of work. Finally you will get a group who have perserved learned to work, understand what this path will entail and still go forward. These are the ones who are likely to succeed. Others will not have learned or will no introspection and go forward. In any event, I would still want to sit down and advise the student. But in the end, I can only advise them so far. This is America and everyone has the have the right to be an idiot, even if means leaving the country to do so.

 

[gonnif]

Exactly. You can present the facts—the risks and all the stats—and help them make an informed decision. It’s not your place to tell them to quit, but to give them the info, perhaps even tell them what you would do, and then let them live their lives.

Sure it is your place to tell them they are being an idiot. Lawyers advise clients to go foward with a case or not all the time as well does any advisors in any position. In the end if they want risk lifelong debt and help increase my DeVry stock price, I wont stop them. Remember the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits

 

[Goro]

Exactly. You can present the facts—the risks and all the stats—and help them make an informed decision. It’s not your place to tell them to quit, but to give them the info, perhaps even tell them what you would do, and then let them live their lives.

An adviser has an obligation to tell an advisee that they are making a mistake, especially a BIG mistake.

 

[gonnif]

An adviser has an obligation to tell an advisee that they are making a mistake, especially a BIG mistake.

if only someone advised me about that for my first 3 wives

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

An adviser has an obligation to tell an advisee that they are making a mistake, especially a BIG mistake.

Absolutely agree. I just also agree that there’s a difference between telling someone they should quit and giving them realistic advice. Telling them the Carib is a big, big risk and likely a huge mistake is realistic (and good) advice.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

if only someone advised me about that for my first 3 wives

Though, would you have listened?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sure it is your place to tell them they are being an idiot. Lawyers advise clients to go foward with a case or not all the time as well does any advisors in any position. In the end if they want risk lifelong debt and help increase my DeVry stock price, I wont stop them. Remember the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits

Fair enough. I think it’s totally appropriate to tell someone the decision to go to the Carib is likely a gigantic mistake given the data, but that’s different than telling them they should quit after two cycles. If they want to keep trying, that’s on them.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Fair enough. I think it’s totally appropriate to tell someone the decision to go to the Carib is likely a gigantic mistake given the data, but that’s different than telling them they should quit after two cycles. If they want to keep trying, that’s on them.

it's in the phrasing imo. you can say "mr. LizzyM 50, you should quit this pursuit," which probably wouldn't go over well, or you can say something like "mr. lizzym 50, unfortunately the reality is that you aren't competitive for US medical schools. i can't in good conscience advise that you continue expending your time, energy, and money in this manner. are there other careers that had interested you in college or after?" granted a real advisor can do it much better than this half-assed example but you get the idea.

 

[gonnif]

Though, would you have listened?

Of course not! Luckily i am still good friends with 3 out of the 4

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

If you read my comments carefully, you will see I say student shouldnt even consider off shore schools until after they have done the 2 cycles with repair in between. First of all, a large fraction of these students will either not complete repair or a do a second full cycle and give up before that. Others will try both cycles and still give up. Some will consider other medical fields during these 3-4 years of work. Finally you will get a group who have perserved learned to work, understand what this path will entail and still go forward. These are the ones who are likely to succeed. Others will not have learned or will no introspection and go forward. In any event, I would still want to sit down and advise the student. But in the end, I can only advise them so far. This is America and everyone has the have the right to be an idiot, even if means leaving the country to do so.

So you recommend your students spend all that time and money trying to improve their applications under the pretense that most of them will be unsuccessful? Seriously though, this process is long enough as it is. If I didn't get into any medical schools when I was in first applying out of college, there is no way I would ever consider doing anything to tack on any additional years to this already outlandishly drawn out process. Your reasons for avoiding going abroad are also pretty mediocre at best (and even contradictory). You seem to suggest the biggest risk in attending a foreign school is financial. I suppose you must also believe then that SMPs are free and that there is no such thing as an opportunity cost in terms of several years of lost potential income.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I know to stay away from Carribean schools but I have to say this cruise ship medical school thing sounds totally SICK !!!!!

 

[gonnif]

So you recommend your students spend all that time and money trying to improve their applications under the pretense that most of them will be unsuccessful? Seriously though, this process is long enough as it is. If I didn't get into any medical schools when I was in first applying out of college, there is no way I would ever consider doing anything to tack on any additional years to this already outlandishly drawn out process. Your reasons for avoiding going abroad are also pretty mediocre at best (and even contradictory). You seem to suggest the biggest risk in attending a foreign school is financial. I suppose you must also believe then that SMPs are free and that there is no such thing as an opportunity cost in terms of several years of lost potential income.

Most will find success thru my general advice. However that success may not be med school. They may realize the level if work and commitment is too much and move on to other things. Some will be successful in getting in US schools. Some who go thru all that work and dont get in to US school will be that better prepared to offshore schools. Thr risk for off shore schools is the "success" rate of starting school, earning a degree , and getting a residency slot. You can argue the not starting med school as soonas possible is years of lost income. Starting med school is pure debt and unless you complete and get a residency slot, aint no money coming in. So I take the approach to minimize risk. If you are looking to maximize revenue stream, i suggest you are in the wrong profession

 

[pseud0]

lol are they bringing cadavers onto the ship?

this is some grim peak capitalism right here. Forcing students to endure this **** to pad their bottom line while the corporations have bribed our politicians enough to allow these ****ty schools to take advantage of federal student loans. **** this

 

[Mad Jack]

Minimally.

Their chances are around 60-70%, and they'll stay that way. I wouldn't recommend the Caribbean because statistically it is a poor decision, but Ross is a good school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

it's in the phrasing imo. you can say "mr. LizzyM 50, you should quit this pursuit," which probably wouldn't go over well, or you can say something like "mr. lizzym 50, unfortunately the reality is that you aren't competitive for US medical schools. i can't in good conscience advise that you continue expending your time, energy, and money in this manner. are there other careers that had interested you in college or after?" granted a real advisor can do it much better than this half-assed example but you get the idea.

Yeah. I mean it’s really the same thing when it comes down to it, but given that there are people who are successful after going to the Carib or places like Oschner (sp?), I think if someone really doesn’t want to give up, you can present those options. You just have to present them very realistically, including what living conditions will be like (or the possibility of having to live on a run down boat for two years).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know to stay away from Carribean schools but I have to say this cruise ship medical school thing sounds totally SICK !!!!!

That’s the norovirus.

 

[863168]

@Rhabdoviridae By "opportunity cost" you are implying that premedical students can define opportunity outside of being accepted into medical school.

 

[863168]

I'm surprised RUSM is rolling out their new academic program before 2020. 1,000 students per semester, only 400 will make it out alive. Students group up in pairs in order to battle against other pairs to survive until the end. The finale plot twist: is that only one person out of each pair will go on to residency, this is determined by the one with the higher Step 1 score.
In all seriousness, I think I watched a Japanese show with a similar plot where desperate people gamble their lives away on a cruise ship sailing to nowhere.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I believe you are taking about me. I did not make my decision impulsively and had far more reasons to do it than I explained in my prior threads.........I have also reported your disrespectful comment to the mods

That person didn't name you. Why did you out yourself?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That person didn't name you. Why did you out yourself?

A need to validate a poor decision?

 

[gonnif]

lol are they bringing cadavers onto the ship?

this is some grim peak capitalism right here. Forcing students to endure this **** to pad their bottom line while the corporations have bribed our politicians enough to allow these ****ty schools to take advantage of federal student loans. **** this

Ross and its sister school, AUC are core revenue centers for DeVry Medical International, a wholly owned subsidiary of Adtalem (the renamed DeVry Education Inc) and is a publicly-traded company that has fiduciary responsibility to its share holders to gain as much value as they can. The welfare of the students legally come second in this regard

 

[VincentAdultman]

If I was a premed adviser, I would straight up tell someone to quit rather than go offshore after a couple of cycles failing to get into a US school.

Guess that's why I'm not an adviser.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Students will live and study on the cruise ship through December.

“We are exploring our location options for continued studies beyond that,” said Ross University Dean and Chancellor William F. Owen, Jr. in a statement. “The next locale is still being determined

source - chitrib

the story is even more ridiculous; after December apparently there's no plan... who knows maybe a Zeppelin docked in Turks and Caicos!

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Ross and its sister school, AUC are core revenue centers for DeVry Medical International, a wholly owned subsidiary of Adtalem (the renamed DeVry Education Inc) and is a publicly-traded company that has fiduciary responsibility to its share holders to gain as much value as they can. The welfare of the students legally come second in this regard

Have American students always been allowed to take out fed student loans for the Caribb meds? If not, when did this start?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If I was a premed adviser, I would straight up tell someone to quit rather than go offshore after a couple of cycles failing to get into a US school.

Guess that's why I'm not an adviser.

That’s better than encouraging people to go there in lieu of US med schools.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

This is elementary thinking.

Good advisors do not tell students to quit, at least until after all of their viable options are exhausted. And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit.

They may not like the fact that you chose the Caribbean, but they still need to respect the fact that you have power over your own decisions.

Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

This is elementary thinking.

There are plenty of people for whom, due to lack of ability, poor temperament or ethical issues just straight up should not be doctors, and as someone's advisor you have every right to say that they should do something else. Part of being a good advisor is telling the truth, and some things just aren't for some people.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Have American students always been allowed to take out fed student loans for the Caribb meds? If not, when did this start?

From my understanding, only 6ish medical schools in the Caribbean (AUA, AUC, MUA, Ross, Saba, SGU) currently qualify for Federal student loans under NCFMEA guidelines. The rest have either no Fed loan programs or a mix of shady practices that may include enrollment in loosely-affiliated onshore programs or other unsavory practices.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

From my understanding, only 5 medical schools in the Caribbean (AUA, AUC, MUA, Ross, Saba) currently qualify for Federal student loans under NCFMEA guidelines. The rest have either no Fed loan programs or a mix of shady practices that may include enrollment in loosely-affiliated onshore programs or other unsavory practices.

Isn't St.George's one of them?

 

[PreMedMissteps]

This is elementary thinking.

Good advisors do not tell students to quit, at least until after all of their viable options are exhausted. And even then out of tact, you do not tell them to quit.

They may not like the fact that you chose the Caribbean, but they still need to respect the fact that you have power over your own decisions.

Telling them to quit is crossing that line.

Good advisors first diplomatically state the facts, risks, costs, and timeline. Sometimes, frank words are needed. Most of the time, the advisee takes heed. Sometimes, the students need to proceed with a bad plan and it hits them upside the head into reality. A few still will go ahead and apply. On the JHU premed website, there's a mention that alludes to that despite their best advising some students will still stubbornly proceed - maybe due to parental pressure. Advisors can't move mountains, only can chip away at the rocks.

I still feel very badly about a student who went Caribb after one failed app season which he essentially caused by applying to a bad list and applying very late. That student got caught up in the hurricane mess and is now being educated in England. Sounds like a cut and paste situation held together by duct tape.