S Corporation questions (1099 in CA)

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ronin8

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I'm moving to Los Angeles and need to start a S Corporation since the hospital pays 1099. I'm trying to use LegalZoom but there are a lot of questions which are foreign to me (shareholders, officers, miscellaneous services to complete forms, etc.). It should cost about $300 but all added up ends up being over $700. Has anyone done this before and knows the steps needed? I just don't want to have missing forms and be penalized at some point. Or should I just pay more for an accountant to handle everything? Thanks

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I am 1099 in CA and not incorporated. I have SEP-IRA to put my 49k/yr. My wife gets benefits for us at her job, so no need for me to incorprorate.....The costs to do so really add up, like $800/yr taxes, payroll (like Intuit), accountant to do tax forms on top of personal taxes, etc......
 
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I am 1099 in CA and not incorporated. I have SEP-IRA to put my 49k/yr. My wife gets benefits for us at her job, so no need for me to incorprorate.....The costs to do so really add up, like $800/yr taxes, payroll (like Intuit), accountant to do tax forms on top of personal taxes, etc......

But I've been told with an S Corp you can deduct so much
 
I have 1099 income, and I'm not incorporated either. I deduct a lot without it. There are benefits to an S Corp, but you should be researching whether those benefits are worth the higher costs. No sense paying those costs if you don't reap greater benefits. In my case, I'd be losing money by creating an S Corp. You may benefit, but check it out first. I don't know all of your details.

If you decide on the S Corp, I would consider having an attorney to consult with on this.
 
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The benefit of incorporating is that you can pay yourself a salary and also dividends. Let's say you make $300k/year. You could pay yourself a $200k/yr salary and take out $100k/yr in dividends (taxed at 15% instead of the income rate for that category).

However, the IRS really scrutinizes this so expect to be audited frequently. Also, there is a lot of discussion in Congress to close this loophole.

I'm an independent contractor who also gets 1099 income. I am not incorporated and have no plans to since it offers to liability protection.

NOTE: This does not constitute tax advice, so please speak with a tax lawyer before doing what I've described. The numbers used above were for example only and may not reflect what true amount of income you can claim as dividends from business profit.
 
I have 1099 income, and I'm not incorporated either. I deduct a lot without it. There are benefits to an S Corp, but you should be researching whether those benefits are worth the higher costs. No sense paying those costs if you don't reap greater benefits. In my case, I'd be losing money by creating an S Corp. You may benefit, but check it out first. I don't know all of your details.

If you decide on the S Corp, I would consider having an attorney to consult with on this.

Is there an income above which a S corp is a good idea?
 
Hmm okay I guess then the question is what can I deduct without an S Corp vs with? And if I incorporate in CA would Locums work outside the state be payable into the S Corp or would it be separate? I'm changing from a W2 job to 1099 this summer and I guess to make it easier maybe I should just not incorporate for the rest of the year, see what deductions I can get, then start a S Corp for 2012 if it's worth it?


The benefit of incorporating is that you can pay yourself a salary and also dividends. Let's say you make $300k/year. You could pay yourself a $200k/yr salary and take out $100k/yr in dividends (taxed at 15% instead of the income rate for that category).

However, the IRS really scrutinizes this so expect to be audited frequently. Also, there is a lot of discussion in Congress to close this loophole.

I'm an independent contractor who also gets 1099 income. I am not incorporated and have no plans to since it offers to liability protection.

NOTE: This does not constitute tax advice, so please speak with a tax lawyer before doing what I've described. The numbers used above were for example only and may not reflect what true amount of income you can claim as dividends from business profit.
 
I've also debated this, but haven't had the time to meet w/someone more knowledgable (ie, an accountant/tax person)

I'll be switching from W2 to 1099 (moonlighters) pay and training-grant/stipend (fellow's) pay. While I think incorporating might allow me to deduct travel between sites and some work-related expenses, I fear it will be more headaches (like audits, as Southern Doc alluded to..and fees and the like) I guess one good thing about an S-corp is that you can protect your assets better from liability--but I'm not in a hugely litigious field.

TexasPhysician, Spyderdoc, Southern doc..do you guys all contribute to SEP-IRAs? I'm looking for tax-advantaged ways to sock away my 1099 income. Is it tricky to set one of these up? You can put away up to 49k of deductable income, yes?
 
Is there an income above which a S corp is a good idea?

It is more tricky than that. Partly because you are "required" to be payed by the S Corp at an average rate. Say you are an anesthesiologist and anesthesiologists make on average $350,000. The 25%ile is $300,000 and 75%ile is $400,000. These are hypothetical numbers.

Now say you make $315,000. You could probably argue in court a "salary" of $300,000 and dividends of the remaining $15,000. You are unlikely to successfully argue that average means <25%ile in your field.

Factor in costs, legal fees, audits, time, keeping records, etc and you are upside down in that scenario.

S corps are heavily scrutinized, and if I were doing it, I'd have an attorney with me the whole way. There may be loopholes I'm unaware of and I'm no attorney.

S corps also make home office deductions much more difficult. You may benefit from that deduction more than a S Corp.

A C Corp may even benefit you more than a S Corp if your income is "average". It can get income into a lower tax bracket.

Without knowing your entire situation, it is impossible to accurately help so please take this post as merely informative.
 
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Okay yes I will average about 300k/y but it's not consistent as I'm leaving a W2 job next month and starting some Locums work for the remainder of the year. I guess it would be easier to just do my own taxes for 2011 and start this Corp for next year when I know more about it. I just wonder what kind of deductions I can take without a corporation?

My friend who has an S Corp in my same position just has an accountant take care of it but he only pays less than $1000/y for the service, which sounds too good to be true considering you are all saying I would need an attorney also.
 
Texas Physician has got this right. The only financial benefit to incorporating for a doc is to play a little game with the IRS where you argue that part of your salary is dividend and the rest is salary. This lets part of your income be taxed at the lower dividend rates instead of the regular tax rates. Like the home office deduction, you're walking a fine line there, and need to be careful. Most physicians aren't going to be able to have a huge tax savings by saying half their income is dividend income.

Just because you get 1099s (aka are an independent contractor) doesn't mean you need to incorporate.

As mentioned above, there is no real malpractice liability reason to incorporate. And without the trick mentioned above, no real tax reason to incorporate.
 
TexasPhysician, Spyderdoc, Southern doc..do you guys all contribute to SEP-IRAs? I'm looking for tax-advantaged ways to sock away my 1099 income. Is it tricky to set one of these up? You can put away up to 49k of deductable income, yes?

I contribute my annual 49k to the SEP-IRA. It is super easy to set up on any of the broker sites. I personally use Vanguard for my SEP-IRA, but have taxable accounts at Schwab and Fidelity as well......

To the OP, if you are going to convert to W2 this year, why bother setting up corp? It is very costly to set up, plus you will have to pay the $800 tax, plus accounting fees as well as payroll service fees......Is this output of thousands of dollars going to save you more than that in a few potential write-offs?

As 1099, you still get to write off many expenses, and they are "off the top" deductions. You really should talk to an accountant or tax lawyer to make sure it is worthwhile to do.....

Good luck
 
I contribute my annual 49k to the SEP-IRA. It is super easy to set up on any of the broker sites. I personally use Vanguard for my SEP-IRA, but have taxable accounts at Schwab and Fidelity as well......

Good luck

agreed. It's not hard. 49k is the max or about 20% of "income" - whichever is lower I believe. I put income in quotes because there is a weird calculation in there.
 
Um, sorry guys. S corps have small tax advantages, but it has to do eith avoiding medicare/social security tax on your dividends not any lower income tax rates on the dividend income. The above posters are correct that the irs looks carefully to ensure your wage income is reasonable, but like I said the tax benefits of this are currently small. I am a partner in a s corp, and although I am not a cpa, I can tell you with great confidence that s corps are Pass-through tax entities. This means that unlike c corps and mutual fund companies dividends, the s corp dividends are reported to shareholders/owners on a k-1, which goes into a schedule E on your tax forms. This schedule e income is taxed at your marginal rate, ie 35% if you are in AMT phaseout hell range like myself.

The tax advantage you get on dividends is avoiding the 1.45% personal medicare tax rate, the 1.45% matching employer tax rate, and both the personal 6.2% (4.2% this year only) and employer 6.2% soc sec tax. Of course any reasonable anesthesioligist salary would be well over the $106,500 soc sec wage cap, so you only get a 2.9% tax break.

Now, there are many tax advantages to 1099 income and self employment (largely business expenses and being able to reach large employer solo 401k/sep ira employer contributions of $49,000ish without the pesky nondescrimination rules that can limit groups contributions), but these are specific to 1099 income, not s corps.
 
This lets part of your income be taxed at the lower dividend rates instead of the regular tax rates.

I thought dividends are usually taxed at ordinary income tax rates, so why would there be savings associated with that? Long term (>1 year) capital gains get taxed at the 15% rate-- is that what incorporating allows you do by deferring compensation at least a year and netting it as a capital gain?

ETA: Nevermind, RabbMD answered my question.
 
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I thought dividends are usually taxed at ordinary income tax rates, so why would there be savings associated with that? Long term (>1 year) capital gains get taxed at the 15% rate-- is that what incorporating allows you do by deferring compensation at least a year and netting it as a capital gain?

ETA: Nevermind, RabbMD answered my question.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear above. You do pay ordinary income tax rates on your S Corp dividends. But you don't pay medicare tax (2.9%) or SS tax (you've probably already maxed this out already.) Read more here:
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/incorporating-to-reduce-liability-and-to-save-taxes/
 
I'm moving to Los Angeles and need to start a S Corporation since the hospital pays 1099. I'm trying to use LegalZoom but there are a lot of questions which are foreign to me (shareholders, officers, miscellaneous services to complete forms, etc.). It should cost about $300 but all added up ends up being over $700. Has anyone done this before and knows the steps needed? I just don't want to have missing forms and be penalized at some point. Or should I just pay more for an accountant to handle everything? Thanks

If you are a doctor, you need a C corp. Accountants shouldn't make legal decisions about choice of legal entity. You are SO lucky to get a 1099 and have this opportunity. C corps allow more executive and fringe benefits to doctors than any other type of corporation and are the only type to use if you intend to be profitable. S corps are for losing money. C corps are for making money. That is why all big and all successful US corps are C corps and all their executives make more than doctors, well, too many do, and pay less in taxes. You need a PC or PA, depending on CA law. Don't need legal zoom. Just go to CA Secretary of state for this. They should have articles and bylaws. Your purpose is to practice medicine. Until you take a partner this should be very simple. At that point it should be time to get a serious financial advisor and lawyer, in that order to draft shareholder agreement, employment agreement, etc. Your tax return will be an 1120 for a C corporation. Your advisor should set up an open architecture custom 4011K PSP for you now, and you can fund only the employee deferral once a month, decide at end of year how much more to fund to zero out your corporation so you won't pay double tax. I have to tell you you can't rely on this to avoid penalties with IRS and must find professional advice. I'm just a nice tax attorney/fin advisor married to a rad, and IRS requires me to tell you the above.
 
Um, sorry guys. S corps have small tax advantages, but it has to do eith avoiding medicare/social security tax on your dividends not any lower income tax rates on the dividend income. The above posters are correct that the irs looks carefully to ensure your wage income is reasonable, but like I said the tax benefits of this are currently small. I am a partner in a s corp, and although I am not a cpa, I can tell you with great confidence that s corps are Pass-through tax entities. This means that unlike c corps and mutual fund companies dividends, the s corp dividends are reported to shareholders/owners on a k-1, which goes into a schedule E on your tax forms. This schedule e income is taxed at your marginal rate, ie 35% if you are in AMT phaseout hell range like myself.

The tax advantage you get on dividends is avoiding the 1.45% personal medicare tax rate, the 1.45% matching employer tax rate, and both the personal 6.2% (4.2% this year only) and employer 6.2% soc sec tax. Of course any reasonable anesthesioligist salary would be well over the $106,500 soc sec wage cap, so you only get a 2.9% tax break.

Now, there are many tax advantages to 1099 income and self employment (largely business expenses and being able to reach large employer solo 401k/sep ira employer contributions of $49,000ish without the pesky nondescrimination rules that can limit groups contributions), but these are specific to 1099 income, not s corps.

Finally hearing some sense here on taxes, thanks for this sensible post, but on the retirement area, there is still some confusion. There were ERISA changes in 2001 and most especially some great ones in 2006,7 and 8 which allow huge deductible contributions to retirement up to more than 200K per year, not just the 49K per year you are all describing as max. Also there are new plans, cash balance and combo plans which work brilliantly for docs, and have more flexibility year to year than they used to. Yes, its complicated and yes the costs of implementation are higher, but wow, the deductions are big and you might actually get to retire at a lifestyle you might like. Deductions are NOT a problem anymore for doctors, at least not under current tax law. If you make enough money to be able to put some away, deductions up to more than 1M a year are available to you and you get to keep the money and use it even before retirement should you need to. Minimums may apply to these larger sums, but get out the word, you need to find these before Obama does. Section 79 has essentially a Roth for the the rich, the OJ plan is a defined benefit plan, now made better because it can be used in combo with 401K, and please check out the captive insurance company, the darling of the highly paid doctor who wants to save a LOT of money and protect it, and reduce insurance costs as well. And yes, there is more. Do you have a Health SAvings account? Its just another little deductible savings account which can end up like an IRA. The list of corporate fringe benefits you can provide yourself might surprise you. But you need a C corp. That is the first step and not hard at all. The popularity of the S corp is because something like 90% of small business fail and they need pass through of losses. The ridiculous truth is that doctors don't pass through losses, they pass through ordinary income gains and the minor savings from tweaking salaries over payroll taxes is just hawks chasing flies. You guys have better things to do and finding a decent advisor who understands your income tax bracket is job one. The number one biggest item in your line item budget is taxes, and that is where your financial planning should begin, not in working harder, not in worrying about small investment fee savings, but in those huge tax bills you DONT EVEN OWE.
 
Touchadream-

Please explain why you think a C Corp with its double taxation is a better entity then an S Corp with its single taxation for a doctor who actually wants to spend most of the money he makes each year. I've run the numbers and can't think of a reason a doc would want a C Corp.
 
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