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Salary.com and Ortho income

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ItsGavinC

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I'm under the impression that Salary.com has some wildly skewed salary numbers.

They list the median salary for Orthodontists in the US to be $106,000, and they list the 75th%ile to be $129,000.

I don't know a lot of orthodontists (5 or 6), but NONE of them are making less than $129k.

So my questions are thus: what are the statistical odds that all the orthos I know are in the 75%ile in terms of income? I have a friend in Seattle who just graduated from UW and his income in his first-year associateship will easily eclipse $129k.

Also, what type of workweek would be associated with an orthodontist earning $129k? My perception is that it would be an extremely limited workweek.

All in all, these numbers just don't seem to jive? Anybody agree? Disagree?
 

aphistis

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Originally posted by ItsGavinC
I'm under the impression that Salary.com has some wildly skewed salary numbers.

They list the median salary for Orthodontists in the US to be $106,000, and they list the 75th%ile to be $129,000.

I don't know a lot of orthodontists (5 or 6), but NONE of them are making less than $129k.

So my questions are thus: what are the statistical odds that all the orthos I know are in the 75%ile in terms of income? I have a friend in Seattle who just graduated from UW and his income in his first-year associateship will easily eclipse $129k.

Also, what type of workweek would be associated with an orthodontist earning $129k? My perception is that it would be an extremely limited workweek.

All in all, these numbers just don't seem to jive? Anybody agree? Disagree?
It's just like any other salary survey; a pretty web site doesn't necessarily correlate to accurate research, and a salary report isn't necessarily more accurate just because somebody's trying to get you to pay for it.

Though, as a practical matter, I'm surprised that salary.com would miss *any* salaries to the low side, considering they probably rely on customers printing salary reports for revenue...and who's going to pay for a salary report, if they can't print off an official-looking document to wave under their boss' nose and use to demand a raise? Fascinating.
 

Midoc

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Originally posted by ItsGavinC
So my questions are thus: what are the statistical odds that all the orthos I know are in the 75%ile in terms of income?

Also, what type of workweek would be associated with an orthodontist earning $129k?


For the first question I would say that there is a 0% chance of that being true. For the second question I would say 2 days a week or 4 days a week in an academic job.
 

Midoc

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And don't forget the report on the top 10 overpaid jobs in the US.

Here is the relevant section about orthodontists:

4) Orthodontists

For a 35-hour workweek, orthodontists earn a median $350,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists, meanwhile, earn about half as much working 39 hours a week on average, in a much dirtier job.

The difference in their training isn't like that of a heart surgeon vs. a family-practice doctor. It's a mere two years, and a vastly rewarding investment if you're among the chosen: U.S. dental schools have long been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially low supply to keep their income up.

This isn't brain surgery: Orthodontists simply manipulate teeth in a growing child's mouth -- and often leave adjustment work to assistants whose handiwork they merely sign off on. What makes their windfall egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.
 

ItsGavinC

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Dan, that CBS article was another source I had in the back of my mind.

A median of $129k versus a median of $350k is quite the discrepancy. That CBS article lists the median as being nearly TRIPLE what Salary.com lists. The MEDIAN!!

Dr. Jeff, that's what I assumed. Thanks for the verification.
 

groundhog

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Orthodontia is the best investment a parent can make in their child's oral health care. Getting those teeth properly spaced and alligned early sets the stage for an easily maintained cavity/peridontal disease free lifetime if one buys into a decent diet, personal oral hygiene care, and regular checkups at the dental office.
 

sxr71

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Originally posted by DrJeff
For my wife in her associate part time ortho position (3 days/24 hrs/week) to make that, she'd have to DECREASE the number of hours she works:wow:


Just to be clear, do you mean $129,000 or $350,000? Thanks.
 

DrJeff

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Originally posted by sxr71
Just to be clear, do you mean $129,000 or $350,000? Thanks.


:laugh: :laugh: I'm referring to the $129,000. If it was the $350,000 on a 3 day week, I'd be spending alot more time golfing and skiing and have my wife working 5 days a week then!:D
 

3rdMolarRoller

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I know of an orthodontist that only makes $25,000. He did a lot of work on my brother and he was really really good. And it semms like he has a really good client base. Oh I forgot to mention thats how much he makes a month.
 

sxr71

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Originally posted by Brocnizer2007
I know of an orthodontist that only makes $25,000. He did a lot of work on my brother and he was really really good. And it semms like he has a really good client base. Oh I forgot to mention thats how much he makes a month.

You scared me there for second!
 

DrJeff

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Originally posted by Brocnizer2007
I know of an orthodontist that only makes $25,000. He did a lot of work on my brother and he was really really good. And it semms like he has a really good client base. Oh I forgot to mention thats how much he makes a month.

Thats a fairly reasonable number for an established ortho practice owner:wow:



Question: "What do you call a dentist who stinks at using the handpiece??"




















An orthodontist!:laugh: :wow: :D :hardy:
 

datdude

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I think I could come up with 350,000 reasons
why it's ok to stink with a hand piece

stank you very much
 

hafido

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I cannot support or disprove any of those stats, but my good friend who intorduced me to dentistry is an orthodontist. He makes $450K per year.
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by hafido
I cannot support or disprove any of those stats, but my good friend who intorduced me to dentistry is an orthodontist. He makes $450K per year.

Where do you guys get this figure?:wow:
I don't have access to any dental magazines so some other source would it helpful.

Also what do ortho do besides braces???:confused:
 

ItsGavinC

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Originally posted by hafido
I cannot support or disprove any of those stats, but my good friend who intorduced me to dentistry is an orthodontist. He makes $450K per year.

Likewise, at our Give Kids a Smile day, I met an orthodontist fresh out of UOP (2 years). He took an associateship in Phoenix and pulled 60k in December alone.
 

blankguy

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How competitive are ortho postdoc programs? They seem to be pretty cutthroat when I see them admitting onlye 4 or 5 people per program.
 

gryffindor

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Extremely competitive is right; ortho is the most sought after post-grad program. You basically have no chance if you are sitting at the bottom of your class unless your dad is the chair of the department. Even if you have been out of school for a few years, they still scrutinize over your dental school grades & boards (maybe not as much if you were straight out, but still). About half of the applicants each year match into a spot.

But that's not gonna stop me from re-applying and getting into a program in the upcoming cycle.
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by griffin04
Extremely competitive is right; ortho is the most sought after post-grad program. You basically have no chance if you are sitting at the bottom of your class unless your dad is the chair of the department. Even if you have been out of school for a few years, they still scrutinize over your dental school grades & boards (maybe not as much if you were straight out, but still). About half of the applicants each year match into a spot.

But that's not gonna stop me from re-applying and getting into a program in the upcoming cycle.

Does this mean that even people who rank in the middle have a good shot at it? I was under the impression that they take the cream of the crop.

Why would they want to look at your undergrad grades? Wouldn't just looking at the grades at dental school suffice?
 

ItsGavinC

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Originally posted by blankguy
Does this mean that even people who rank in the middle have a good shot at it? I was under the impression that they take the cream of the crop.

Why would they want to look at your undergrad grades? Wouldn't just looking at the grades at dental school suffice?

They DO take the cream of the crop. Those who rank in the middle have a shot, but not a "good" shot.
 

blankguy

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Would it be possible to get some statistics pertaining to how many people choose to specialize in ortho per class? Get accepted?

Also what stats do you consider middle of the pack in the class GPAwise and Board scorewise?
 

ItsGavinC

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Originally posted by blankguy
Would it be possible to get some statistics pertaining to how many people choose to specialize in ortho per class? Get accepted?

Also what stats do you consider middle of the pack in the class GPAwise and Board scorewise?

Probably very difficult to get those statistics outright. The best way is to talk to upperclassmen at school. If you don't attend a school yet, then this can be a problem.

Middle of the pack is going to vary A LOT from class to class. So much so that any attempt to actually provide figures would just mislead you. Schools understand this (for the most part), which is why they RANK students. A GPA of 3.6 means little if your class rank with that GPA is 35 out of 50.
 

Mo007

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What if you mess-up someone's smile :mad: - and it leads to being sued :( - is that taken into consideration for Orthodontists salary!.

Their insurance must be higher than other specialties right?
 

aphistis

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Originally posted by Mo007
What if you mess-up someone's smile :mad: - and it leads to being sued :( - is that taken into consideration for Orthodontists salary!.

Their insurance must be higher than other specialties right?
It may or may not be, but are you seriously suggesting that orthodontics is the only field of dentistry where you can screw up someone's mouth if you're not careful?
 

NewNameForGoogleBot

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Ortho strikes me as having a relatively small number of claims. Endo on the other hand - get an good insurance company with good lawyers.
 

Mo007

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Originally posted by aphistis
It may or may not be, but are you seriously suggesting that orthodontics is the only field of dentistry where you can screw up someone's mouth if you're not careful?

I was trying to find out if the benefits of being orthodontist included fewer claims compared to other specialties.
 

DrJeff

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You'd actually be suprised at how few overall dental malpractice claims that there are :clap: This holds true for both specialists and for GP's. Think about it, for the most part, if something goes wrong at your hands, you can often quite easily take care of it, plus if you've done everything you're supposed to and obtain informed consent prior to the treatment, than there are very few true "suprises" that the patients encounter.

Think about it, if you have a unanticipated complication during an endo and the tooth requires extraction, you can fix the problem via and implant or a bridge and the patient is happy with the outcome. I will guarentee all of you that you'll encounter a situation during your career where you'll do something like this or similiar(wheather you were at fault or not)

The only big malpractice cases that you'll really see in dentistry is generally complications with sedation procedures(either oral or IV), and then most of those are situations where proper monitoring and/or history taking wasn't done prior to/during the procedure.

There is a reason why us folks in the dental field pay way, way less than our medical colleagues, the overall risk is much less, and the outcomes are often way, way less severe than those that our medical colleagues can experience.

In the big scheme of things, malpractice is an extremely small issue in dentistry.
 

Mo007

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How many programs are there in the US for orthodontics, the length of the program and the salary while specialising?

What kind of stats would be required on the NBDE1 and NBDE2?
 

aphistis

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Originally posted by Mo007
I was trying to find out if the benefits of being orthodontist included fewer claims compared to other specialties.
My original comment came off sounding a little barbed, and that wasn't how I meant it. Sorry! :D
 

Mo007

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Originally posted by aphistis
My original comment came off sounding a little barbed, and that wasn't how I meant it. Sorry! :D

No problem Bill - whatever it takes to find out an info! :laugh:
 

DocDrtySanchez

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For those of you who are curious about the stats necessary to be competitive for ortho...I'm a fourth year student and I matched with the following stats...
Part I boards: 97 overall
GPA: 3.7/4.0
Rank: 6/92

MS degree prior to dental school.

Externships, research, academic/clinical awards

Abundant teaching and research experience prior to and during dental school

Good recommendations...from what I was told at interviews.
I applied to 15 programs...was invited to interview at 13, went to 9, matched at my first choice.

All in all. it takes a lot of work to match into an ortho program, and everyone else I know who matched has similar stats. This is not to say there aren't exceptions, but it takes a lot more luck to fall into that category...or you've got to be the relative of a chairperson/faculty member.

With regard to undergraduate grades...mine were absolutely dismal during my first two years...I partied way too much. Made no difference when it came down to getting an ortho spot.

Hope this helps...best of luck to all.
DocDrtySanchez
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by ItsGavinC
Probably very difficult to get those statistics outright. The best way is to talk to upperclassmen at school. If you don't attend a school yet, then this can be a problem.

Middle of the pack is going to vary A LOT from class to class. So much so that any attempt to actually provide figures would just mislead you. Schools understand this (for the most part), which is why they RANK students. A GPA of 3.6 means little if your class rank with that GPA is 35 out of 50.

You mean if you happen to be in an unusually competitive class it could work against you??? Like if you had a GPA of 3.7 with a score on the boards of say 94-95(excuse if this comes across as being a bit off the wall or wacky the stats) but some how still rank say 20 out of 50 you have slim chance?
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by DocDrtySanchez
For those of you who are curious about the stats necessary to be competitive for ortho...I'm a fourth year student and I matched with the following stats...
Part I boards: 97 overall
GPA: 3.7/4.0
Rank: 6/92

MS degree prior to dental school.

Externships, research, academic/clinical awards

Abundant teaching and research experience prior to and during dental school

Good recommendations...from what I was told at interviews.
I applied to 15 programs...was invited to interview at 13, went to 9, matched at my first choice.

All in all. it takes a lot of work to match into an ortho program, and everyone else I know who matched has similar stats. This is not to say there aren't exceptions, but it takes a lot more luck to fall into that category...or you've got to be the relative of a chairperson/faculty member.

With regard to undergraduate grades...mine were absolutely dismal during my first two years...I partied way too much. Made no difference when it came down to getting an ortho spot.

Hope this helps...best of luck to all.
DocDrtySanchez

Not to go off on a tangent. What is the difference between somebody who gets low 90s in the boards vs somebody who got a high 90s like yourself?

I'm curious to the stats from each school. So if people from various schools posted stats or bits of it(since complete information is a bit of a haphazard affair) at the schools they attend that will be fine.
 

omsres

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I've heard there is little difference from 93 to 99. Just look at the percentile for these scores. If memory serves it's like the 96th to the 99th respectively.

Anyone feel free to correct me.
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by omsres
I've heard there is little difference from 93 to 99. Just look at the percentile for these scores. If memory serves it's like the 96th to the 99th respectively.

Anyone feel free to correct me.

If this is the case, then it would be a matter of who's luckier?
 

DocDrtySanchez

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There is little difference between a 93 and 99 on part I with regard to the percentile ranking...however, admissions committees may percieve differences between the two when comparing candidates. In the end, just do your best and see where your luck takes you. With regard to the ortho match, I think just about half of the people who are invited for interviews and submit match lists actually match. I'm not sure how it goes at individual schools, but at my school, practically everyone who applied matched. (all of whom are very competitive and certainly deserved it)
 

ItsGavinC

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Originally posted by blankguy
You mean if you happen to be in an unusually competitive class it could work against you??? Like if you had a GPA of 3.7 with a score on the boards of say 94-95(excuse if this comes across as being a bit off the wall or wacky the stats) but some how still rank say 20 out of 50 you have slim chance?

Well, in the scenario you just painted, a 3.7 wouldn't be too swell if you were ranked middle of the class (20 out of 50). That means their must be some high grade inflation, or your classmates are sheer brilliance personafied.
 

blankguy

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Let's just say that its sheer brilliance that you have a GPA of 3.7 and rank say 10th??
 

sxr71

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Originally posted by blankguy
If this is the case, then it would be a matter of who's luckier?

When you are talking about -the 99th percentile maybe 40-50 people in the entire nation have that score, and assuming they all want to specialize and match into Ortho, there would still be a good amount of room for others. Even when you look at the 96th percentile perhaps 160-200 people have received that score that year, so there's room for all of them (again assuming they all want Ortho).

However a better score means better choice. I think if your heart is set on particular program, then you might have to get that 99-99.5 percentile.
 

Mo007

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Originally posted by blankguy
Dentistry comes in as #10 under best paid.

I wonder what the other top 10 jobs were? :rolleyes:
 

aphistis

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8 of them were medical specialties, and the other was CEO's (#9, interestingly enough). Yeah, blankguy, they lumped all dentists together. If they'd done the same with medicine, we'd be #3 and there'd seven more spots available for other jobs.
 

blankguy

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CEO is the broadest job description because it could be for any company in any industry. ALso the pay varies so wildly I am not quite sure it is a good idea to lump and rank it among the other professions.
 

ItsGavinC

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One of the coolest things about that article is the "average hours per week" data. Sure, dentists are #9 on the list overall, but our hours are still 10 hours lower than the next lowest profession, which happens to be the medical specialty of psychiatry.

Sure, it lists the average surgeon as making $50,000 more than us, but they are also listed as working nearlyy 30 hours more each week.

It's a no brainer what job is really sweet :D
 

Mo007

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The income difference after taxes between #1 and #10 is moderately small.

You get more $$$$? So as uncle Sam! :D
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by ItsGavinC
One of the coolest things about that article is the "average hours per week" data. Sure, dentists are #9 on the list overall, but our hours are still 10 hours lower than the next lowest profession, which happens to be the medical specialty of psychiatry.

Sure, it lists the average surgeon as making $50,000 more than us, but they are also listed as working nearlyy 30 hours more each week.

It's a no brainer what job is really sweet :D

OMG!:eek:

A statistic that ItsGavinC validated!:D :laugh:
 

the big wand

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I wonder if Bill Gates is included in the survey.....

How about people who won national lotteries? I'm sure they'll make lots of money simply by earning interest from banking....
 

blankguy

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Originally posted by the big wand
I wonder if Bill Gates is included in the survey.....

How about people who won national lotteries? I'm sure they'll make lots of money simply by earning interest from banking....

That would be after taxes. OUCH!:mad:
 
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