Salary of Doctors on Decline?

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collegefreak12

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Many people here say that the salary of the doctor's is going down. But, does anyone have any statistical evidence of that claim? Can you show me the rates of doctors these days, compared to before they started going down? Or is this something people just say

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Many people here say that the salary of the doctor's is going down. But, does anyone have any statistical evidence of that claim? Can you show me the rates of doctors these days, compared to before they started going down? Or is this something people just say

Where have you been?
 
Many people here say that the salary of the doctor's is going down. But, does anyone have any statistical evidence of that claim? Can you show me the rates of doctors these days, compared to before they started going down? Or is this something people just say

It is public knowledge that physician's reimbursement rates have been declining at an alarming rate in the past years, and will continue to drop in the years to come. If you are a premed, I suggest you get a life outside of your organic chemistry books and read about the socio-economics of the medical profession. This will serve you better.
 
Again, is there any statistical evidence to prove that claim? A link would be great.
 
Again, is there any statistical evidence to prove that claim? A link would be great.

I will look for the exact numbers. It has not been a complete across the board decline in actual dollars. The drop has been in Real Dollars. Adjusted for inflation, average medical salaries have dropped something like 7%. I will try and find the link.
 
Again, is there any statistical evidence to prove that claim? A link would be great.


I just received a message from my state medical society. The present planned cutbacks in medicare for this year alone will reduce medicare funding in my state by $8.08B. The data comes from the Office of Management and Budget and the Congressional Budget Office. It is supplied to them by CMS. Dividing this number by the number of physicians in my state gives a net loss per physician of $34,000 per year.

These are hard data from the actual budget "sustainable growth" formulae used by CMS to calculate the RBRVS prospective payments. While these payment cuts are not equally distributed across the board, $34K/per doc/per year on the average is a significant chunk of change.

Add to this the state's medicaid fund in near bankrupt and reimbursements for medicaid care doesn't cover even the office overhead expense, let alone nursing or professional care expenses, and you can see why some are dropping medicaid patients and some are considering dropping medicare patients as well.

The SGR is a folly. It ties payments for health care services rendered to the GDP without consideration of the cost of providing these services. The end result will be that it will become rapidly economically not feasible to provide a service, unless, of course you beleive the old line, loss a little on each patient, but make up the loss in volume. It doesn't work that way, and it never has. You pay your auto mechanic more per procedure than you will get from medicare per procedure if this trend is not stopped now!
 
I hope that in the future we will see more doctors ask patients... pay at the door or don't even come in. Otherwise, go to the Emergency Department. They got EMTALA there and will do a $2000.00 work up for your cough and fever. It will start to stop this avalanche... then the next step would be to get rid of EMTALA etc etc.. *oh who am I kiddin... salaries will continue to decline and nothing will happen till docs protest*
 
At this rate I wil hate to say physicians' salaries 6 years from now. In fact at this rate the transition from resident to attending might actually involve a pay cut.
 
evidence? there is a boatload of evidence that physician salaries are on the decline. how about the fact that physicians get paid about the same today that they were paid 10 years ago. so while inflation has continued to rise and everyone else is making numerically more (bankers, lawyers, engineers, teachers, policemen, etc.)

starting salary for a policeman (with only a junior college degree) is now $75K with butt kicking benefits.

starting salary for a primary care doc (with $200K in debt, 4 years college, 4 years med school, and 3 years residency) is $100K.

does that sound like a good deal?

and now, medicare wants to cut physician salaries more. medicare is planning on cutting physician reimbursement by 5% for next year. and unless congress vetoes this, physician salaries will decrease further. do you think congress with veto? why should they? they don't use medicare, they have their own private long term health insurance.

100K per year does not buy as much today as it did 10 years ago. (you might have bought a nice house back then) but physician salaries have not even kept up with inflation.

if things keep going like this, don't be surprised if we get passed up by more and more other professions.
 
Last year the cuts went through and we were happy just to keep them the same. realize that no increase means you lose a lot of money b/c your staff needs pay raises every year.
 
Not to mention inflation of around 3.5-4%/yr.

I'm scared to go into medicine knowing I can come out 200k in debt and could be making relatively low wages. If I'm going to be making a house-payment-like student loan payment every month in addition to having gone to school until I was 30 or so I better be making damn good money. Its stupid to spend 200k on an education when you can't rid yourself of the debt and have lost many of the best years of your life to studying.
 
Not to mention inflation of around 3.5-4%/yr.

I'm scared to go into medicine knowing I can come out 200k in debt and could be making relatively low wages. If I'm going to be making a house-payment-like student loan payment every month in addition to having gone to school until I was 30 or so I better be making damn good money. Its stupid to spend 200k on an education when you can't rid yourself of the debt and have lost many of the best years of your life to studying.

Exactly.
 
Physician income will continue to decline for as long as physicians remain passive about the issue. IMO the reason physicians are not voicing their opinions aggressively is because "money" has become a dirty word in the world of physicians. If you even dare to say "money" you will be labelled as being "in it for the money". Well the insurance companies, medicare/medicaid handlers, med mal lawyers, and hospital management are all in it for the money, and guess who's money they are going after these days. They already have the advantage of the skewed public perception that doctors are rich, so a cut here and there won't affect anything.
Believe it or not, there are more people in congress today than ever who believe doctors are overpayed and underworked(yes I flat out heard a congressman argue that cutting medicare reimbursements will lead to an increase in doctor work-hours which is a good thing) and these people are going to keep screwing doctors for as long as doctors allow them to. You think stress and competition will reduce when you become board certified? wait until medicare/medicaid and insurance companies implement their "pay according to performance" plan. Really guys, doctors need to start fighting back.

By the way
"The New York Times on Monday examined concerns over a proposal to change Medicare hospital reimbursements that would reduce Medicare payments to hospitals by 20% to 30% for many complex procedures and new technologies (Pear, New York Times, 7/17)."

http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/6-07-17-PerfectStorm.htm
 
Absolutely, we can start by finding a way to make sure that physician payments are not government dictated... sorta like dentists.. you don't see people paying dentists with medicaid/medicare.

The problem with all this is that unlike dentists... medical doctors have too many specialties that dont agree with each other. The medicare/medicaid is a huge pain in the ass for FM/IM/Surgery but oncologists, dermatologists, plastic surgeons might not find it to be a major issue for them... So it's hard to enforce some sort of system where the pay is not medicaid/medicare dependant when many specialists will not follow the rules of the majority because the issue doesnt affect them _YET_.
 
Absolutely, we can start by finding a way to make sure that physician payments are not government dictated... sorta like dentists.. you don't see people paying dentists with medicaid/medicare.

The problem with all this is that unlike dentists... medical doctors have too many specialties that dont agree with each other. The medicare/medicaid is a huge pain in the ass for FM/IM/Surgery but oncologists, dermatologists, plastic surgeons might not find it to be a major issue for them... So it's hard to enforce some sort of system where the pay is not medicaid/medicare dependant when many specialists will not follow the rules of the majority because the issue doesnt affect them _YET_.

Gotta agree with you on the specialists. There really is no need for them to play nice:

I know an oncologist who no longer accepts ANY insurance plans due to plenty of demand for his services. (How he sleeps at night after making dying people pay him thousands of dollars in cash is a question for another day :p)

I know dermatologists who got tired of bickering with insurance companies over pay and have pared down to accepting only one or two. There were only 3 dermatologists in my town to begin with. I'm down to only one who will accept my insurance plan. My other alternatives are to pay an outrageous sum of $500 for a CONSULTATION visit with one or to pay out of pocket $75/visit for the other.

I don't have much experience with plastic surgeons but I imagine the good ones probably don't care/worry too much about insurance/medicaid/medicare issues either as patients are just banging down their doors trying to squeeze in appointments. (Let's just say that if I'm getting a cosmetic procedure done, I want it done by a doctor that I chose and not by a doctor that my insurance company chose for me!)
 
Specialists have seen a slight decline. I think the source thrown around on SDN says 3 or 4% over the last decade or so, adjusted for inflation. I don't think there is significant evidence that specialist salaries are likely to show alarming declines.

It's really the primary care docs who have been hard hit. I think the source says 10%, again adjusted for inflation. There are non market forces involved here of course, However, the wider dissemination of health information and the increase in midlevels are probably driving down demand.
 
starting salary for a policeman (with only a junior college degree) is now $75K with butt kicking benefits.

starting salary for a primary care doc (with $200K in debt, 4 years college, 4 years med school, and 3 years residency) is $100K.

Starting salary (years 1-2) for family practice without OB is $161,000. For internal medicine, $154,000. source

Starting salary for a police officer (LAPD): $54,747 with 60 college credits or more. source

Physician salaries may or may not be declining, but let's not exaggerate about the present situation. You don't see many docs on the receiving lines at the soup kitchens.
 
if I'm getting a cosmetic procedure done, I want it done by a doctor that I chose and not by a doctor that my insurance company chose for me!

Shouldn't be an issue, as most (if not all) insurance companies do not cover cosmetic surgery. It's a cash business.
 
Shouldn't be an issue, as most (if not all) insurance companies do not cover cosmetic surgery. It's a cash business.

ahhh! you're right! can't believe i forgot about that

yet another reason why cosmetic plastic surgeons really have nothing to worry about in terms of medicare/medicaid slashing!
 
Starting salary (years 1-2) for family practice without OB is $161,000. For internal medicine, $154,000. source

Starting salary for a police officer (LAPD): $54,747 with 60 college credits or more. source

Physician salaries may or may not be declining, but let's not exaggerate about the present situation. You don't see many docs on the receiving lines at the soup kitchens.

At this rate it could actually happen in the future.
 
Starting salary (years 1-2) for family practice without OB is $161,000. For internal medicine, $154,000. source

Starting salary for a police officer (LAPD): $54,747 with 60 college credits or more. source

Physician salaries may or may not be declining, but let's not exaggerate about the present situation. You don't see many docs on the receiving lines at the soup kitchens.

True, and they're even higher given the very low level of risk.
 
Starting salary (years 1-2) for family practice without OB is $161,000. For internal medicine, $154,000. source

Starting salary for a police officer (LAPD): $54,747 with 60 college credits or more. source

Physician salaries may or may not be declining, but let's not exaggerate about the present situation. You don't see many docs on the receiving lines at the soup kitchens.

You are missing several key points in your argument. That police officer can begin making that salary with pension and benefits at age 20. The family practitioner must way at least 8 years beyond that to begin making an income. The FP will have student loans to pay down, which will cut out of the bottom line. The police officer after 8 years will be earning close to 62k with inflation. Compound interest will afford that police officer a 2 million dollar retirement at age 60 PLUS pension. That FP won't be able to retire with the same amount of money unil he/she is close to 70.

At face value, $160k might seem like a lot, and it would be if you were comparing apples to apples.
 
For the record, I do not begrudge the salary of anyone in law enforcement. Teachers, cops, and firefighters are among the most underpaid and underappreciated workers in our society. Comparing their pay to that of even the lowest-paid physician betrays a complete ignorance of healthcare economics and utter disrespect for people who work a lot harder for less money than we ever will.
 
Again, is there any statistical evidence to prove that claim? A link would be great.

Another person in here wanting us to do their homework for them.

Are you in high school or college. Is is your Econ paper or soc class?
 
Starting salary (years 1-2) for family practice without OB is $161,000. For internal medicine, $154,000. source

Starting salary for a police officer (LAPD): $54,747 with 60 college credits or more. source

Physician salaries may or may not be declining, but let's not exaggerate about the present situation. You don't see many docs on the receiving lines at the soup kitchens.

Check pediatrics out.. the average 130k starting... that means you will see docs making 110k considering the standard deviation is 10-15k. And I am sure the standard deviation for a policeman is 5-7k as well so expect to see a policeman with 65k starting....

So... 65k and 110k compared to 70k and 100k... yes.. it's an exaggeration.. but the fact that the ends of the curves do meet is pretty sad considering the pediatric doctor had indeed 11 years of training and 200k loans and his young->entire life spent studying/exam taking etc etc etc etc+pity+ <insert favorite sympathy song>

I wouldnt be surprise if in the future the curves intersect more and more...
 
By the way, even if salaries were not going down, physicians salries are NOT going up. That means they are not keeping up with inflation at an average rate of 3 to 4%.

So, in five years your salary is 15 to 20% less than it should be.

Even the police officer gets a cost of living increase in his salary.

Now take that with the reality that salaries are going down and the compounded problem is not pretty at all.
 
For the record, I do not begrudge the salary of anyone in law enforcement. Teachers, cops, and firefighters are among the most underpaid and underappreciated workers in our society. Comparing their pay to that of even the lowest-paid physician betrays a complete ignorance of healthcare economics and utter disrespect for people who work a lot harder for less money than we ever will.

I totally disagree.

I do believe cops should be well compensated, but to join the police force is much less of a life sacrifice, and much easier, than becoming a physician and shouldn't be compared. I will admit there are some distinct parallels--e.g. they "are" police officers, they don't just do police work for a living. It becomes a lifestyle and you've often got to give up some of the nice things in life.

And teachers? With the exception of college professors (whom I have the utmost respect for) teachers are the biggest joke ever...they work 30% less than the rest of the US and only half to half-ass their way through 4 years of school. Where I live high school teachers are making 40-65k/yr and they are constantly protesting, despite the fact that they only work about 180 days per year and, in general, the average college degree is a cake-walk--especially if all you have to do is "pass" and get your credentials and then teach at a level that is just fast enough for the slowest person in the class.

Spending countless hours working your ass off in med school, then doing 80hr/wk residencies, sacrificing hours the rest of your life, and spending $200k on an education is a huge sacrifice and deserves to be very well compensated.
 
Let me give you another example. At a local high school the starting teacher salaries (with a bachelors degree) are half that of some starting family practice physicians and one third that of an established local internal medicine doctor with 10 years experience who also does night call at the hospital to keep his income up. The internal medicine doctor says each year something is cut. Now teachers deserve to get paid well for what they do but historically there has been a wide gap in pay between them and physicians. I think a move may be underway to make physician salaries no higher than that in other service professions. But the government will have to step in subsidize medical school costs to make this feasible. Reducing physician salaries may be the only way the government can continue to fund rising medicare expendatures.
 
For the record, I do not begrudge the salary of anyone in law enforcement. Teachers, cops, and firefighters are among the most underpaid and underappreciated workers in our society. Comparing their pay to that of even the lowest-paid physician betrays a complete ignorance of healthcare economics and utter disrespect for people who work a lot harder for less money than we ever will.

Just a few corrections since I have had the opportunity to work in law enforcement and also teach. Underpaid? Yes. Work harder than doctors or anyone else for that matter? No.
 
Let me give you another example. At a local high school the starting teacher salaries (with a bachelors degree) are half that of some starting family practice physicians and one third that of an established local internal medicine doctor with 10 years experience who also does night call at the hospital to keep his income up. The internal medicine doctor says each year something is cut. Now teachers deserve to get paid well for what they do but historically there has been a wide gap in pay between them and physicians. I think a move may be underway to make physician salaries no higher than that in other service professions. But the government will have to step in subsidize medical school costs to make this feasible. Reducing physician salaries may be the only way the government can continue to fund rising medicare expendatures.

Lord take me now.
 
Reducing physician salaries may be the only way the government can continue to fund rising medicare expendatures.

Unless you are actually employed by the government, they don't pay you a "salary." Most doctors aren't truly salaried anyway, despite the misuse of this term here on SDN. Any of us can drop Medicare at any time.*

*Edit: Well, those of us in family medicine can, anyway. ;)
 
Unless you are actually employed by the government, they don't pay you a "salary." Most doctors aren't truly salaried anyway, despite the misuse of this term here on SDN. Any of us can drop Medicare at any time.


Ding ding ding - we have a winner! You can indeed drop Medicare or any insurer you no longer feels compensates you to your satisfaction!
 
Any of us can drop Medicare at any time.


Garbage. Medicare controls 60% of all healthcare dollars in the USA. By 2020hat number will be 75%.

Yes, a few docs can afford to drop it, namely those who live in young, rich areas where people dont use Medicare. Maybe thats 10% of doctors at most. The other 90% will have no choice but to accept Medicare.

medicare is rapidly becoming a de facto universal health care system, with monopoly powers to control doctor wages. Most private insurance companies ALREADY base their reimbursements on Medicare rates. The days of working independent from Medicare are over. Even if you dont take Medicare, indirectly you still take it because the other insurers key their rates on the largest player in the market.
 
Unless you are actually employed by the government, they don't pay you a "salary." Most doctors aren't truly salaried anyway, despite the misuse of this term here on SDN. Any of us can drop Medicare at any time.

Come on Kent. You're making me lose respect for you... even you can't claim you can drop your medicare.... they represent more than 30% of your patients..... do you dare drop them? And the rest of the patients are on insurance plans that base their pays off the government medicare payrate....

Whether you like it or not.... you are government regulated big time! 30% directly and the rest indirectly.
 
Even if you dont take Medicare, indirectly you still take it because the other insurers key their rates on the largest player in the market.

Yes, but those contracts are negotiable.

even you can't claim you can drop your medicare.... they represent more than 30% of your patients..... do you dare drop them?

30% of my charges (est.), not 30% of my patients or collections.

If/when we (my group) decide to alter our participation with Medicare, it will be financially advantageous to do so. We review the Medicare fee schedule every year, just like any other payor. Conceiveably, I could drop all insurance, should it become necessary.

You're only trapped if you've built the cage yourself.

Edit: Remember, "dropping" Medicare doesn't necessarily mean you won't see any Medicare patients...it just changes the terms under which you will see them. More info here: http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/practicemgt/mcareoptions.html
 
It's not all doom and gloom. Ortho's starting salary on average has went up $100,000 in the past 5 years.
 
Spending countless hours working your ass off in med school, then doing 80hr/wk residencies, sacrificing hours the rest of your life, and spending $200k on an education is a huge sacrifice and deserves to be very well compensated.

Of course, by definition, if you're "very well compensated" then it wasn't a sacrifice. It was just delayed compensation. A sacrifice, by definition, means you don't get anything back for it. What you really mean to say is you think doctors should be well compensated because of the value of what they do, which is certainly reasonable. But you weren't sacrificing, you were investing time, effort and money, hoping for a good return. The problem is, the return on the investment is not what many people expected when they started medical school. Like any business investment, it was a calculated risk, and right now it's not paying off well for many.

Yes, I'm nitpicking. But I think it's important we use the right terms because to improve the situation, we need to use the language of business. If we're throwing out that we should be paid better because we "sacrificed", of course they're laughing in our faces.
 
Of course, by definition, if you're "very well compensated" then it wasn't a sacrifice. It was just delayed compensation. A sacrifice, by definition, means you don't get anything back for it. What you really mean to say is you think doctors should be well compensated because of the value of what they do, which is certainly reasonable. But you weren't sacrificing, you were investing time, effort and money, hoping for a good return. The problem is, the return on the investment is not what many people expected when they started medical school. Like any business investment, it was a calculated risk, and right now it's not paying off well for many.

Yes, I'm nitpicking. But I think it's important we use the right terms because to improve the situation, we need to use the language of business. If we're throwing out that we should be paid better because we "sacrificed", of course they're laughing in our faces.


Agreed big time.... Sacrificed should stop being used as it gives the public a sense that this is not a business but rather a charity event. It used to be charity back in the days when they couldn't sue you for a million dollar.
 
I think you guys are right. Physicans' compensation are on the decline. I guess it's not as lucrative anymore. But hey, if you think other careers are better, then go for it.

:laugh:
 
Of course, by definition, if you're "very well compensated" then it wasn't a sacrifice.....
Yes, I'm nitpicking. But I think it's important we use the right terms because to improve the situation, we need to use the language of business. If we're throwing out that we should be paid better because we "sacrificed", of course they're laughing in our faces.
Well, despite the fact I usually have a great dislike for arguing over semantics, point taken :)
 
Agree with the statement by NotThatOne. If you feel the return is not worth the investment, then pursue a different field.

I don't think by no longer accepting insurance is/will be the solution. This would probably lead to increased responsibilities for mid-levels or would possibly lead the gov't to increase the number of foreign trained physicians.
 
Kent I gotta tell you, your medical skills are better than your math.:D

If you have a 30% medicare population. That means that 30% of all your billing is from medicare. It is that simple.

So if medicare cuts payments by 5% you lose 5% of 30%.

Also, you mention that you can negotiate contracts with insurers. That sounds really good on paper. But the reality of it is that most insurance companies negotiate only so much.

Yes, you choose to drop certain insurance companies, but that only works if you are somewhere where competion is not king and the other insurance companies are strong enough with numbers to support your practice. Remember, everyone wants the good stuff.

As far as droping medicare. Well, there are some internal medicine practices out there that are 50% medicare. They are that way not by choice but by neccessity.

Your practice is only 20% away from that.

So, this is all big shot talk that means nothing when it comes to taking action.

Why don't you and your partners try it. Drop medicare and try to negotiate those higher paying contracts. Ask for 250 dollars for a 99204 and 150 for a 99213 from the private insurers.

AND don't worry, when your looking for a new job, someone will higher you in a clinic with a 50% medicare population. ;)
 
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

That site shows pretty high salaries. I don't think many proffessions get higher than some doctors. Lets see:

Neurologist: ~228,000 after 3 years of working.
Cards: ~400,000 after 3 years.

I could go on, but you could just go to the site. I don't think other professions even come close to these salaries, and won't, for several decades (if in fact the salaries are falling at the rate you guys say it is).
 
For the record, I do not begrudge the salary of anyone in law enforcement. Teachers, cops, and firefighters are among the most underpaid and underappreciated workers in our society. Comparing their pay to that of even the lowest-paid physician betrays a complete ignorance of healthcare economics and utter disrespect for people who work a lot harder for less money than we ever will.

Sounds like residency to me...
 
I think you guys are right. Physicans' compensation are on the decline. I guess it's not as lucrative anymore. But hey, if you think other careers are better, then go for it.

:laugh:

Come back when you have a medical degree and that loan is sitting on your head. See if your opinion changes by then.:rolleyes:
 
If you have a 30% medicare population. That means that 30% of all your billing is from medicare. It is that simple.

It's never that simple. Again, I do not have a "30% Medicare population." Approximately 30% of my charges are Medicare. However, Medicare is the worst-performing payor we have, with the lowest collection percentage (I'm not talking about bad debt here, I'm talking about the difference between our fee schedule and what we collect from payors). Therefore, the net collections are something less than 30% of the total.

As for patient volume, Medicare patients are high utilizers compared to most younger, healthier patients. The average number of visits per year for the typical Medicare patient is considerably higher than that of a non-Medicare patient. Many of my young patients don't even come in once a year, but I'm still their doctor, because it says so on their insurance card. You don't need vast numbers of Medicare patients to have a busy Medicare practice.

So if medicare cuts payments by 5% you lose 5% of 30%.

Not this year. The 5% cuts are across-the-board. If you factor in the increases in ambulatory CPT codes (which favor primary care), it's a wash.

Also, you mention that you can negotiate contracts with insurers. That sounds really good on paper. But the reality of it is that most insurance companies negotiate only so much.

It depends what you or your group brings to the table, and how badly they want you in their panel. We've done pretty well, actually.

Yes, you choose to drop certain insurance companies, but that only works if you are somewhere where competion is not king and the other insurance companies are strong enough with numbers to support your practice.

You have a keen grasp of the obvious. ;)

As far as droping medicare. Well, there are some internal medicine practices out there that are 50% medicare. They are that way not by choice but by neccessity.

As I said earlier, you're only trapped if you built the cage yourself.

this is all big shot talk that means nothing when it comes to taking action.

There are already several insurance plans that we refuse to participate with because their reimbursement sucks, and we don't need 'em.

Our mission is to take care of patients. However, you have to constantly be looking after the business aspects of your practice if you're to survive. No margin, no mission.

Why don't you and your partners try it. Drop medicare and try to negotiate those higher paying contracts.

Again, from a primary care standpoint (most of our multispecialty group consists of primary care physicians), Medicare reimbursement is a wash this year, and we have several new physicians in the group who are growing their patient panels. We decided to continue to participate for now. We will re-evaluate Medicare on an annual basis. Our private insurance contracts receive similar attention.
 
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