San Juan Bautista Loses LCME Accreditation

[doctorguate]

I just read that SJB lost their LCME accreditation. I think they are the first US school to ever lost accreditation from LCME. So I guess the number of US med schools in Puerto Rico just went from 4 to 3.

Does this make SJB a caribbean school now? They have something of a split personality because technically they are in the US being in a US territory, but unlike the other 3 school on the island (UPR, Ponce, UCC) they don't have LCME so they are no longer "US". I think this would make applying for residency much more difficult, similar to coming from a Caribbean school like Ross.

Here is the LCME announcement:
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT, October, 3, 2011
LCME Withdraws Accreditation from the San Juan Bautista School of Medicine
Effective October 3, 2011, the LCME has withdrawn accreditation from the educational program leading to the MD degree at the San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. This decision was based primarily on the LCME's assessment of inadequate clinical resources. This decision is final. The notification letter sent to the program informed it of its right to provide official comment to the U.S. Department of Education and to the LCME. If the program chooses to exercise this option, copies of the comments will be made available to the public by request. A copy of the letter notifying the program of this decision is available here: http://www.lcme.org/sjb3oct2011letter.pdf

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[kuckimonster]

Yeah I read that, not too shocked though because it is known (at least to the best of my knowledge) as the lesser school around here.

Interested in knowing what implications does this have on their students and to the school itself.

 

[CatFactorial]

That is rough. At the very least an explanation should be included in the eventual residency applications from current students.

 

[shadowfox87]

Hmm they could lose LCME accreditation but gain ECMG accreditation like a caribbean school.

 

[Smachadams]

Yeah I read that, not too shocked though because it is known (at least to the best of my knowledge) as the lesser school around here.

Interested in knowing what implications does this have on their students and to the school itself.

+1

They always scraped the bottom of the barrel as far as applicants go, and besides that, never heard good things about that school around here.. I just feel bad for the students there, how will it affect their getting residencies? I wish that on no one..

 

[alexis garcia]

agree with kuckimonster this school is viewed by most of puertoricans as crap. Sad how it is the last hope for mainland americans who get rejected elsewhere. Oh well, good luck

 

[DisabledDoctor]

What was the basis for the LCME withdrawl?

 

[thepoopologist]

The whole administration needs to be fired for letting it happen.

It's time to transfer, OP

 

[mwilso30]

I seriously feel offended that anyone could speak about a medical school that way! I am an MSII student at San Juan Bautista School of Medicine and although I could defend myself with my undergraduate mcat score and my college grades the truth is that this school taught me a lot not only in regards to clinical knowledge and the biological sciences but on how to be a better doctor.

I don't know if you even attend a medical school but the way you are speaking seems that you not only LACK EMPATHY for many of the MS4 students that right now were in the US interviewing for residencies at Penn State, USC, UCSF, etc. but also I seriously question your professionalism.

If you really want to know why we lost our accreditation then ask but I really hope that you students who are looking to be doctors have better things to do than just speak gossip and put down an entire school as well as their students with just pure speculation and slander.

 

[MossPoh]

You feel offended that people are outraged that a school could let that happen to its students?

Dude, it is unacceptable in every way that a school lost its accreditation. There is a lot of stuff that has to happen for that. My school just underwent the reaccreditation process and they spent about 2 years preparing for it. While the LCME part may not be that old, the school has been around since the 70s. They had fair warning to correct these things. They chose not to correct them and you guys get screwed over because of it. I feel bad for you.

I was under the impression that when a student goes to a school that loses accreditation they are offer a position at another LCME accredited school. It may not be where they want and they may have to take a year off, but they get one. That is only what I heard though.

 

[Gastrapathy]

How is it possible to improve 50% on the USMLE?

You should try to transfer. ASAP.

 

[DrMidlife]

the truth is that this school taught me a lot not only in regards to clinical knowledge and the biological sciences but on how to be a better doctor.

That's not a basis for accreditation. How would you know, as an M2, whether your clinical knowledge is comparable to that of students at other schools, or whether it is adequate for practice? Accreditation has a med student feedback component, but med students aren't in a position to judge the soundness of a med ed program...thus med students aren't in charge of accreditation.

The bases and procedures for accreditation are documented at lcme.org. Schools in trouble don't get badmouthed to death - they fail to meet requirements after multiple assisted attempts to address issues raised in predictable standard reviews. It's an incredibly boring process as long as requirements are being met.

To lose accreditation, a school has to be unable to muster support from alumni, faculty, physicians in practice, local clinical facilities, local and federal governing bodies and the greater community. To not actively maintain good relationships with these parties is a failure of the school. SJB threw you under the bus.

Regardless, it's a disaster for the current and former SJB med students, and I hope MossPoh is correct that positions elsewhere will be made available.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Xavier is a business looking to profit on the misfortune of SJB students.

There's nothing to gain in transferring from a just-LCME-unaccredited med school (SJB) to another LCME-unaccredited med school (Xavier).

Take advantage of any help you get from AAMC.

 

[link2swim06]

I wouldn't say we're in the business of making a profit on the misfortune of SJB students. We didn't cause the loss of their accreditation. I am simply offering a option that students can investigate. This may be a time when SJB students want to consider other options. We have an excellent program and all the rotations can be done in San Juan, through our school. We offer $500 for any student you refer, who enrolls with us.If you're interested in finding out more visit xusom.com or call TOLL FREE (866) 987-6601.

There are plenty of opportunities for everyone, and each medical school has something to offer--Charles

The point is AAMC is going to offer all these students another position at another US med school, I dont foresee them needing to go to a foreign med school.

 

[Nymphicus]

I wouldn't say we're in the business of making a profit on the misfortune of SJB students. We didn't cause the loss of their accreditation. I am simply offering a option that students can investigate. This may be a time when SJB students want to consider other options. We have an excellent program and all the rotations can be done in San Juan, through our school. We offer $500 for any student you refer, who enrolls with us.If you're interested in finding out more visit xusom.com or call TOLL FREE (866) 987-6601.

There are plenty of opportunities for everyone, and each medical school has something to offer--Charles

Wait did you say there was a $500 bonus? Can we change that to free tuition?

 

[gettheleadout]

Wait did you say there was a $500 bonus? Can we change that to free tuition?

lolya, some bonus there...

 

[Aislinn]

I am the Assistant Vice President of Xavier University School of Medicine. I just learned that San Juan Bautista Medical School lost their LCME accreditation status. Do you know of any students that would be interested in transferring out of SJB Medical School? We offer $500 for every student that you refer, if they enroll with us. You can visit our website at www.xusom.com or call our admission department TOLL FREE at 866-987-6601--Charles

You can't be serious!

STAY AWAY!

 

[Aislinn]

I wouldn't say we're in the business of making a profit on the misfortune of SJB students. We didn't cause the loss of their accreditation. I am simply offering a option that students can investigate. This may be a time when SJB students want to consider other options. We have an excellent program and all the rotations can be done in San Juan, through our school. We offer $500 for any student you refer, who enrolls with us.If you're interested in finding out more visit xusom.com or call TOLL FREE (866) 987-6601.

There are plenty of opportunities for everyone, and each medical school has something to offer--Charles

Not without accreditation you don't. You're an ass for even being here trying to lure these students to your school with promises of money. I feel like I need a shower just from reading your post. Slimey.

Mods, isn't there some SDN rule against advertising?

 

[TAWS]

The point is AAMC is going to offer all these students another position at another US med school, I dont foresee them needing to go to a foreign med school.

I doubt every student will get an opportunity to transfer. The school has 200 students for each year...meaning 800 total students. Where are you going to find 800 slots at existing US schools?

 

[Wordead]

I doubt every student will get an opportunity to transfer. The school has 200 students for each year...meaning 800 total students. Where are you going to find 800 slots at existing US schools?

They did during Hurricane Katrina. There are what, 130 some medical schools? It's very doable.

 

[Telamir]

No school in P.R. has the capacity for 200 students per year. I think they have 200 ish total, since they take around 60 per class. The school I belong to (UPR) takes around 115 per class and it's the one that takes the most students in the island.

 

[rokshana]

as was stated in the announcement posted on the LCME site and in the letter to SJB, the LCME will make every effort to help students to transfer to another LCME school, but since the LCME has never taken an accreditation away, i doubt there is a protocol for this in place and doesn't mean there is a guarantee that accomodation for every student will happen. the current 4th yr class in the midst of applying for residencies are going to be the ones to suffer the most. Many will find that previously offered interview invites will be rescinded..not sure how easily they will be able to transfer.

the NOLA schools post katrina are a bit different...they were able continue at other schools, but many were taught by the displaced faculty and were always considered to be students of the home school...some people did transfer of course, but it was not the schools wholesale.

and i am amazed at the student who is defending this school...yes, i get the fact that this is your alma mater and all, but your school SCREWED you and your fellow classmates royally!!! It is NOT like withdrawal of accrediation is something that just poof! came up yesterday....this was a failure of an appeal...and the LCME has only placed something like 6 or 8 schools on probation...and they give alot of time for the school to right the problems ...and they have never stripped a school of an accreditation until now...what does that say about your school...did they not tell ya'll about the issues? it was not little things that lost sjb its accreditation.

actually, at this moment, being a student at a caribbean school is probably better than being a student at this non LCME US school...at least for this interview cycle.

 

[TAWS]

as was stated in the announcement posted on the LCME site and in the letter to SJB, the LCME will make every effort to help students to transfer to another LCME school,

Wouldn't this be a blessing in disguise for most? If they are given the opportunity to transfer, one would assume they will go to much better schools on the mainland because SJB is at the bottom rung of the ladder.

 

[Nymphicus]

Wouldn't this be a blessing in disguise for most? If they are given the opportunity to transfer, one would assume they will go to much better schools on the mainland because SJB is at the bottom rung of the ladder.

I wouldn't say this is a "blessing in disguise".

 

[rokshana]

Wouldn't this be a blessing in disguise for most? If they are given the opportunity to transfer, one would assume they will go to much better schools on the mainland because SJB is at the bottom rung of the ladder.

well, there are other med schools in PR...would imagine they would be the 1st to be approached about taking transfers...esp the 4th yrs...

 

[gravitywave]

AAMC is telling SJB seniors that they are straight-up ineligible to participate in ERAS. That's absolutely hideous. Not that i blame AAMC or ERAS, but... wow...

 

[alwaysaangel]

AAMC is telling SJB seniors that they are straight-up ineligible to participate in ERAS. That's absolutely hideous. Not that i blame AAMC or ERAS, but... wow...

Yeah, they're just automatically being refunded they're application costs. Which sucks! I mean if some of the 4th years are able to transfer they should be able to still finish this year.

I feel very bad for all SJB students, ESPECIALLY the 4th years, must be a very stressful time and I hope they are all able to find an alternative to finish med school and get a residency position.

 

[Suncrusher]

ouch. What a scary situation for all the students.

 

[alexis garcia]

Wouldn't this be a blessing in disguise for most? If they are given the opportunity to transfer, one would assume they will go to much better schools on the mainland because SJB is at the bottom rung of the ladder.

agree, blessing in disguise for students entering who got rejected everywhere else because their MCAT sucked. UCC will probably be the next one to go under.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

What a catastrophe all around. I know nothing outside what's in this thread, but this is just a disaster.

If the post above is correct (about the hospital going bankrupt), then SJB may really have not had any solution. The medical school is usually separate from the hospital. If the hospital is poorly run or runs into political problems and get's shut down, there probably wasn't anything SJB could do about it, and it's not like there are 100's of other teaching hospitals that they could affiliate with -- although I agree it would have been much better for SJB to arrange for affiliations / rotations at other hospitals for current 4th years if possible.

The double whammy is that SJB students can't be ECFMG certified. In order to be eligible to be listed in IMED, a school needs to be recognized by it's home country's medical establishment. In the US, that's the LCME (or COCA which is the DO equivalent). Once they loose LCME accreditation, they are removed from IMED and can't get ECFMG certified.

It's unlikely that other medical schools are going to take these students. I would't be excited to take a 4th year student into my school and end up giving them a diploma in a few months, without really knowing if they are competent or not.

 

[Morsetlis]

What a catastrophe all around. I know nothing outside what's in this thread, but this is just a disaster.

If the post above is correct (about the hospital going bankrupt), then SJB may really have not had any solution. The medical school is usually separate from the hospital. If the hospital is poorly run or runs into political problems and get's shut down, there probably wasn't anything SJB could do about it, and it's not like there are 100's of other teaching hospitals that they could affiliate with -- although I agree it would have been much better for SJB to arrange for affiliations / rotations at other hospitals for current 4th years if possible.

The double whammy is that SJB students can't be ECFMG certified. In order to be eligible to be listed in IMED, a school needs to be recognized by it's home country's medical establishment. In the US, that's the LCME (or COCA which is the DO equivalent). Once they loose LCME accreditation, they are removed from IMED and can't get ECFMG certified.

It's unlikely that other medical schools are going to take these students. I would't be excited to take a 4th year student into my school and end up giving them a diploma in a few months, without really knowing if they are competent or not.

You wouldn't know from their Step 1 scores, their med school GPA, and their third year rotation grades?

 

[Wordead]

You wouldn't know from their Step 1 scores, their med school GPA, and their third year rotation grades?

Well, you could argue that they're coming from a incredibly sub-par (so sayeth LCME) hospital/med school, any clinical training they had post-Step 1 is invalid. Accepting someone into your residency program without knowing if they've been properly trained is not palatable, I imagine.

 

[tcp03]

65 per class per year..not 200.....I know facts don't mean much on this thread though

 

[Smachadams]

The top school here (The UPR med school) only takes classes of about 100-115 students a year on average. I talked to a close friend who was just talking with their admissions today, asking them about this, and she said that they'd prefer to focus on their students who got in, and wouldn't consider taking on more.

I really really don't know how the LCME is gonna help these students out...

 

[rokshana]

It's unlikely that other medical schools are going to take these students. I would't be excited to take a 4th year student into my school and end up giving them a diploma in a few months, without really knowing if they are competent or not.

i understand not wanting to graduate a 4th yr in the next few months, but IMHO, the students here are not at fault and wouldn't it be more compassionate for other medical schools to absorb them, even if the students had to repeat a yr or 2 (i would imagine most would be willing to do so).

while i know its a bit different, when St Vincent, St Johns and Mary Immaculate in NYC were abruptly closed down, many of the NYC programs took the residents into their respective programs...and in all honesty, some were able to get into programs that were way better than the programs they left (like st vincent residents becoming columbia pres residents?)...

 

[100YardDash]

agree, blessing in disguise for students entering who got rejected everywhere else because their MCAT sucked. UCC will probably be the next one to go under.

I wasnt going to post but after reading this!! from ponce eh? you must be tough guy behind your computer. I tell you what, I'd rather work in a residency program with the worst SJB vs. this guy up here. Your actually a med student? Im guessing MS-1 right?

There was a post above, I believe from aProgramDirector saying that he/she would not be happy to take in any of the 4th years because of not knowing how competent we are... thats understandable.

Im a 4th year student at SJB. Yeah, it sucks. Actually, I got rejected to every med school when I was 23. Tried for 4 years and never gave up. Eventually, after many failed attempts, at the age of 27 I went to a caribbean school... worked hard, got good grades and a 210/87 on step 1 (It's no 250 but im still proud) and transferred into SJB which at the time was an LCME accredited school as a 3rd year. I had to wait 8 months to start at SJB when I transferred because I couldnt start until august and was accepted in Jan the year prior. Worked hard through my cores, took 3 weeks and got a 214/90 on step 2. Had interviews at UT san antonio, Ut southwestern, UNC, wayne state, and Univ. of Wisconsin. It took me 5 years to get where Im at and it was all taken away this past monday. So Im probably going to have to go back and repeat 3rd and 4th year at another school... maybe even have to start from med 1 which means that Im going to line up with this guy competing for the same residency who posted above about "our MCATS sucking"...

So its probably going to take me 7-8 years to get my MD, 100s of thousands in debt, 37 yrs old... but when the program director has to choose between me and this guy above, you tell me,...who do you think wants it more??

I still stand by my school and still back it as crazy as that sounds. Im proud of my education. Ive been through a TON of obstacles to get where Im at and these tough times have molded me and im sure other students in my position into the people we are. This is just one more obstacle to me... it is what it is.

 

[rokshana]

has the school said what will be able to be done for ya'll?

is it realistic that other schools will be able take you in?

have they said exactly why the accreditation was pulled?

 

[100YardDash]

has the school said what will be able to be done for ya'll?

is it realistic that other schools will be able take you in?

have they said exactly why the accreditation was pulled?

Yeah, the hospital is poor. The city where the medical school is located in is poor. We didnt have enough money to fix it up for the LCME... Im guessing the hospital went bankrupt. But that doesnt mean we got a poor clinical education... We treat dyslipidemia in stroke patients with statins just like they do at the big hospitals in the states.

 

[100YardDash]

i understand not wanting to graduate a 4th yr in the next few months, but IMHO, the students here are not at fault and wouldn't it be more compassionate for other medical schools to absorb them, even if the students had to repeat a yr or 2 (i would imagine most would be willing to do so).

I agree 100% man. I was taught throughout med school and by my mentor to never give up on a patient... You dont give up and turf the patient to another specialty or another doctor. So why give up on us?? 98% of the med schools Ive tried to contact about transferring have locked their doors to us. It's crazy... the AAMC has given us a list of possible schools that will be willing to accept us as transfer students and there are literally only around 4 schools on the list. and out of those 4, 2 of the schools require you to be a resident of that state!

 

[VisionaryTics]

I agree 100% man. I was taught throughout med school and by my mentor to never give up on a patient... You dont give up and turf the patient to another specialty or another doctor. So why give up on us?? 98% of the med schools Ive tried to contact about transferring have locked their doors to us. It's crazy... the AAMC has given us a list of possible schools that will be willing to accept us as transfer students and there are literally only around 4 schools on the list. and out of those 4, 2 of the schools require you to be a resident of that state!

Sounds like you guys are getting a pretty raw deal. Hope everything works out for the best.

 

[thepoopologist]

I agree 100% man. I was taught throughout med school and by my mentor to never give up on a patient... You dont give up and turf the patient to another specialty or another doctor. So why give up on us?? 98% of the med schools Ive tried to contact about transferring have locked their doors to us. It's crazy... the AAMC has given us a list of possible schools that will be willing to accept us as transfer students and there are literally only around 4 schools on the list. and out of those 4, 2 of the schools require you to be a resident of that state!

It sounds like you got screwed. If thats truly the case with these schools, would calling up the Big 4 Carribean schools be a faster route? Maybe you lose a year vs 2 or 3.

 

[DoctwoB]

I agree 100% man. I was taught throughout med school and by my mentor to never give up on a patient... You dont give up and turf the patient to another specialty or another doctor. So why give up on us?? 98% of the med schools Ive tried to contact about transferring have locked their doors to us. It's crazy... the AAMC has given us a list of possible schools that will be willing to accept us as transfer students and there are literally only around 4 schools on the list. and out of those 4, 2 of the schools require you to be a resident of that state!

Wow. I'm sorry, you've gotten an incredibly raw deal. I would think that other medical schools would be understanding and take 1 student, and the fact that they're not stepping up (mine included) is pretty shameful. Schools expanded to take tulane students during Katrina, hell Baylor took in half the school. While a hurricane isn't the schools fault and arguably losing accreditation is (don't know all the circumstances, so not passing judgement), in neither case is it the students fault.

 

[DoctwoB]

Could SJB switch sides, apply for COCA approval, and allow students to graduate as DOs?

 

[Isoprop]

I'm sure COCA accreditation would take a long time and not help any current students out in this situation. Not to mention the fact that none of the current students are taught OMT. Finally, I would think that COCA would be reluctant to accredidate a school that had previously lost its LCME accredidation--makes it look like a DO education is inferior.

 

[DoctwoB]

I'm sure COCA accreditation would take a long time and not help any current students out in this situation. Not to mention the fact that none of the current students are taught OMT. Finally, I would think that COCA would be reluctant to accredidate a school that had previously lost its LCME accredidation--makes it look like a DO education is inferior.

They'll accredit a school like rocky vista, so I doubt thats a problem. I agree that it would probably take way too long though.

 

[Law2Doc]

You wouldn't know from their Step 1 scores, their med school GPA, and their third year rotation grades?

No way. Most of what constitutes "competence" is the subjective aspects of the clinical years, not the test grades. A school dean would be hesitant to accept someone they didn't get to put through their own clinical years, unless it was from a program they were really familiar with, and really trusted the clinical attending evaluations (not grades) they saw. There's a lot at stake for a school if they graduate subpar students who go on and tarnish a schools name during intern year. Nobody cares about your step 1 score if you are screwing up during residency, and a PD may be resistant to go back to that same well for future interns, so that can really hurt a school. Your alumns can ruin things for subsequent years more than you know. Which is why you pretty much never see people being able to transfer for just 4th year.

 

[gerdman]

I'm sure COCA accreditation would take a long time and not help any current students out in this situation. Not to mention the fact that none of the current students are taught OMT. Finally, I would think that COCA would be reluctant to accredidate a school that had previously lost its LCME accredidation--makes it look like a DO education is inferior.

Not gonna happen after the Colorado fiasco. Indications are they kinda got scammed by the people who owned the Caribbean school. The publicity burned them bad and caused a big revolt in the rank and file.
SJB is a known bad entity. It's doubtful they'll want anything to do with it.

 

[Isoprop]

Not gonna happen after the Colorado fiasco. Indications are they kinda got scammed by the people who owned the Caribbean school. The publicity burned them bad and caused a big revolt in the rank and file.
SJB is a known bad entity. It's doubtful they'll want anything to do with it.

Source on that please. Interested in hearing how it's working (or not working) out.

 

[100YardDash]

From what I understand, we cannot transfer to caribbean med schools, unless we decide to start up as med 1s. And about loans, pfff, thats another nightmare! I have no idea how I'm suppose to pay those back! Hey guys, I appreciate lots of your concerns and replies. Very cool

 

[michaelrack]

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