Sanders' Proposal to Eliminate to Forgive Student Loan Debt

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dohopeful13

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So Bernie is proposing to eliminate 1.6 trillion in student loan debt, including graduate school. Unlike Warren's plan, it doesn't exclude high earners, so this would (theoretically) help out a lot of med students and doctors. Now I'll preface this by saying that this is obviously vote pandering and I highly doubt it will ever come to fruition, but I thought it would certainly be a topic worth discussing.

- How would this affect current borrowers in medical school? Would incoming MS1s just get their first 1 or 2 years of school free since it was before the bill is passed? Would they then still have to pay for years 3 and 4? Would MS4s pretty much get an entirely free medical education? Would future incoming classes still be stuck with debt since they came after passing of the bill?

- The bill also calls for all public universities to go tuition free at all levels. I imagine the competition to get into public medical schools over private would become fierce

- How could this possibly be implemented without collapsing the economy?

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Of course it includes high income earners. Who do you think is gonna pay for the lesbian dance theory phds?
 
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Of course it includes high income earners. Who do you think is gonna pay for the lesbian dance theory phds?
Actually, data shows that the vast majority of people do not major in those types fields.
 
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I feel it’d be a lot more helpful and realistic to just cap interest accumulation beyond a certain threshold.
 
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It's an absurd proposal that would have consequences of an unknown magnitude. A 0.5% on investment transactions to finance this would absolutely devastate retirement accounts and would essentially force people into accepting an enormous amount of their investments eroded to fees, or finding alternatives to invest in like real estate and whatnot that would include its own host of problems. It's sad how many people out there are clamoring for their 50k in loans to be forgiven at the expense of someone else's retirement fund. Fortunately, I agree with OP and this is purely vote pandering.
 
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A nice system that rewards parents who saved their money for a child's education instead of spending it on crap, and the post-training early career physicians who intend to eliminate their debt early instead of spending their new incomes on crap.

I can't even begin to scratch the surface on how I feel about this one.
 
So Bernie is proposing to eliminate 1.6 trillion in student loan debt, including graduate school. Unlike Warren's plan, it doesn't exclude high earners, so this would (theoretically) help out a lot of med students and doctors.

Not trying to bust your balls cuz I think you're actually just looking for some honest discussion/insight. But, this definitely wouldn't help doctors. I promise you, under this plan, you would still be paying for education, but instead of paying for your own education, you'll be paying for everyone else's.

Doctors will be in high earning brackets and thus will be expected to pay a lot more. What you "saved" in not paying off student loans is a heck of a lot less than you will end up paying in increased taxes to pay for everyone else to study whatever else they want.

I have no problem paying off my student loans (interest and all). I took those out of my own volition to pay for an education that I know will reimburse me well. At the end of the day my education is gonna cost at least 500k after interest, (and I fully realize I may be in the minority here) but I don't think that's so crazy considering I'm gonna have an income floor of 200k for the next 25-30 years. And, if 200k isn't enough, then I'm free to work hard enough to get into whatever specialty I want that is going to reimburse better.
 
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This isn't a policy. Its pandering.
 
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Not trying to bust your balls cuz I think you're actually just looking for some honest discussion/insight. But, this definitely wouldn't help doctors. I promise you, under this plan, you would still be paying for education, but instead of paying for your own education, you'll be paying for everyone else's.

Doctors will be in high earning brackets and thus will be expected to pay a lot more. What you "saved" in not paying off student loans is a heck of a lot less than you will end up paying in increased taxes to pay for everyone else to study whatever else they want.

I have no problem paying off my student loans (interest and all). I took those out of my own volition to pay for an education that I know will reimburse me well. At the end of the day my education is gonna cost at least 500k after interest, (and I fully realize I may be in the minority here) but I don't think that's so crazy considering I'm gonna have an income floor of 200k for the next 25-30 years. And, if 200k isn't enough, then I'm free to work hard enough to get into whatever specialty I want that is going to reimburse better.

I think it's great that you've clearly come to accept to realities of taking on student debt to finance your education. Your proposal to pursue a highly paying speciality in order to more comfortably pay back you loans is the path that thousands of doctors have chosen to take, and is partly to blame for why we have a shortage of general primary care doctors in the US. Just some food for thought.
 
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Haha good luck to MilMed recruiting anyone if this goes through :lol:
 
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Never happen. The govt wants their money and they will get paid. Remember, the Feds went down south during Prohibition with machine guns to break up Moonshine stills. All because the moonshiners weren't paying the liquor tax on what they were making. Why IS college so expensive? Lower the cost and you could maybe have some free colleges. I would not be in favor of loan forgiveness for someone who went to a private college, spending 250k for a degree in art therapy.
 
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It's an absurd proposal that would have consequences of an unknown magnitude. A 0.5% on investment transactions to finance this would absolutely devastate retirement accounts and would essentially force people into accepting an enormous amount of their investments eroded to fees, or finding alternatives to invest in like real estate and whatnot that would include its own host of problems. It's sad how many people out there are clamoring for their 50k in loans to be forgiven at the expense of someone else's retirement fund. Fortunately, I agree with OP and this is purely vote pandering.

The vast majority of retirement funds are not traded significantly. The entire point of pension/retirement funds is to buy assets in bulk and sit on them as they accumulate value. If your retirement savings are being traded often enough to seriously take a hit from a 0.5% tax then you are being scammed. There are much better arguments against Bernie's plan than fear-mongering and misinformation.

My post was hyperbolic, but surely there would be some significant economic ramifications to forgiving almost 2 trillion of debt in any sector

The government holds most of that debt and we just saw a couple years ago how easily they were willing to drop trillions in tax revenue (over a decade, but the point stands). Further, it's much easier to imagine people spending money in the economy with a free 2 trillion vs. the ridiculous stock buybacks the largest corporations spent their tax break on.
 
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I had to double check this on my own. He’s unironically suggesting we wipe it all out?

Only a fool would take his words to heart.
If you take the loans, you pay the loans. We collectively shouldn’t wipe away your Laotian fly fishing degree from Bennington
 
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Probably won’t happen. We have enough reactionaries who think there’s such thing as a useless degree and as a nation we’re much too interested in waging endless war and protecting the material conditions of millionaires and billionaires at all costs.
 
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<20% of US adults have student loans and the ones that do make more money than average. In fact, because the 1/3 of the population with bachelors degrees makes a LOT more money on average and has a lot lower unemployment rate than the other 2/3, the vast majority of those individuals is in the aggregate better off for having taken out those loans and getting on a career path that they otherwise wouldn't have (yes, there's plenty of exceptions).

Asking the whole population to bail out the voluntary debt of the middle class (where the less responsible and the more wealthy you are the more debt you probably have) is pandering at best.

IBR and PSLF are already huge (potential) subsidies and might be expanded on (such as the tax bomb for various forms of IBR being removed), but I think wholesale debt forgiveness has a snowballs chance in hell of passing.
 
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I think it's great that you've clearly come to accept to realities of taking on student debt to finance your education. Your proposal to pursue a highly paying speciality in order to more comfortably pay back you loans is the path that thousands of doctors have chosen to take, and is partly to blame for why we have a shortage of general primary care doctors in the US. Just some food for thought.

I think the best option would be to offer loan forgiveness to family med doctors who do not pursue fellowship.
 
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Stop govt backing of loans and make them dischargeable moving forward, actual market rates based on likelihood of payback

There will be plenty of money for med school loans and none for french satirical theatre degrees. Solved
 
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Stop govt backing of loans and make them dischargeable moving forward, actual market rates based on likelihood of payback

There will be plenty of money for med school loans and none for french satirical theatre degrees. Solved

That would disadvantage SES students even more. In fact, it would completely eliminate them. In addition to the fact that french satricial theatre degrees are not pursued at the same rate as "real" degrees.
 
That would disadvantage SES students even more. In fact, it would completely eliminate them. In addition to the fact that french satricial theatre degrees are not pursued at the same rate as "real" degrees.
Low SES students with admissions to degrees with proven ROI would still get loans, that’s how actuaries work

And the rates of non-economically viable degrees are irrelevant to the proposal, those would basically become cash pay in a free market loan system (which is good)
 
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Low SES students with admissions to degrees with proven ROI would still get loans, that’s how actuaries work

I strongly suspect that is not how it will work out. If I took out a private loan today for medical school the interest rate would be off the chart. This is setting aside the fact that a physician is very likely to pay off his or her debt.
 
I strongly suspect that is not how it will work out. If I took out a private loan today for medical school the interest rate would be off the chart. This is setting aside the fact that a physician is very likely to pay off his or her debt.
Not necessarily.

I'm seeing ranges from 4.5-12%.
 
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I strongly suspect that is not how it will work out. If I took out a private loan today for medical school the interest rate would be off the chart. This is setting aside the fact that a physician is very likely to pay off his or her debt.
Higher than you would like isn’t that same as “off the chart”. Banks will totally loan money to US med students
 
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Your proposal to pursue a highly paying speciality in order to more comfortably pay back you loans is the path that thousands of doctors have chosen to take, and is partly to blame for why we have a shortage of general primary care doctors in the US. Just some food for thought.

Food for thought, you are completely wrong.
Probably won’t happen. We have enough reactionaries who think there’s such thing as a useless degree and as a nation we’re much too interested in waging endless war and protecting the material conditions of millionaires and billionaires at all costs.

:rolleyes:
 
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Both generalists and specialists already make more money in the boonies than they do in the big city...yet doctors stay in the big city despite having big student loans.

And why would people without student loans be less willing to delay making attending income to become specialists?

If I were to go into a fellowship (3 years) I'd be throwing away, probably around a million dollars in income/benefits including putting about a hundred grand in tax advantaged retirement accounts.

The reason's people become specialists are very broad, but student loans aren't one of them. You take away student loans, and more people will be specialists, less people in underserved areas.

I think the whole student loan program needs to be stopped. If its bad for America, then we need to stop doing it.
 
Higher than you would like isn’t that same as “off the chart”. Banks will totally loan money to US med students

Willing to loan is different than willing to loan at a non-predatory rate.

Like I said, when I look up private loans they are around 10 percent.

No way I can justify going to medical school for that amount. Going to college would have been tough to swallow.
 
Willing to loan is different than willing to loan at a non-predatory rate.

Like I said, when I look up private loans they are around 10 percent.

No way I can justify going to medical school for that amount. Going to college would have been tough to swallow.
Then you're either a) not looking in the right place or b) seeing a range and assuming everyone will get the high end of that range.
 
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Agree that capping interest would be a better idea than a blanket removal of loans. Higher education is an investment in one's own future and others should not have to pay more tax to support another's investment. Won't matter anyway as the election will likely be between Trump and Biden, but it's concerning how far left/socialist some candidates have gotten trying to outdo one another.

I also wonder how Sander supporters will react when they're paying 70% in taxes to fund kids studying unmarketable degrees like dance or gender studies :rolleyes:
 
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So Bernie is proposing to eliminate 1.6 trillion in student loan debt, including graduate school. Unlike Warren's plan, it doesn't exclude high earners, so this would (theoretically) help out a lot of med students and doctors. Now I'll preface this by saying that this is obviously vote pandering and I highly doubt it will ever come to fruition, but I thought it would certainly be a topic worth discussing.

- How would this affect current borrowers in medical school? Would incoming MS1s just get their first 1 or 2 years of school free since it was before the bill is passed? Would they then still have to pay for years 3 and 4? Would MS4s pretty much get an entirely free medical education? Would future incoming classes still be stuck with debt since they came after passing of the bill?

- The bill also calls for all public universities to go tuition free at all levels. I imagine the competition to get into public medical schools over private would become fierce

- How could this possibly be implemented without collapsing the economy?
I think it’s a great idea but it’s not realistic. I think if we eliminate student loan interest, that would be more likely to pass.
 
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Then you're either a) not looking in the right place or b) seeing a range and assuming everyone will get the high end of that range.

Perhaps, but I have been to quite a few places and I have never seen anything that approaches government loans.
 
No, wrong about it impacting the numbers of primary care physicians.

The issue of high student loan debt influencing specialty choice and how this ties into the US doctor shortage is being looked at very closely by physician organizations. The AAMC issued an updated report last April which estimated that there will be a shortage of approximately 122,000 physicians by 2032, encompassing around 55,000 primary care physicians, 12,000 medical specialists, 13,000 surgical specialists, and 40,000 other specialists (such as pathologists, neurologists, radiologists, and psychiatrists.)

This data highlights the need to understand what factors contribute to specialty choice, something that several studies have reported on. One study examining data from the AAMC's Medical School Graduation Questionnaire found an inverse relationship between debt levels and intention to enter primary care. This trend was strongest for students who owed more that $150,000. This study also pointed out that factors such as gender and race strongly influenced specialty, indicating that several factors are contributing to graduating medical students choices.

Another study published in 2014, A Retrospective Analysis of the Relationship Between Medical Student Debt and Primary Care Practice in the United States, supports this idea that the reasoning behind students choice of medical specialty is multi factorial. Researchers found that debt levels as well as public vs private schooling and socioeconomic status influenced specialty choice. For graduates of public med schools, researchers found an inverse relationship between debt levels and intention to practice primary care. For all graduates overall, they found that students with little to no debt, as well as students with very high debt, were less likely to chose primary care. They propose a few possible explanations for these findings:

" We believe that 2 important relationships contribute to this curve (Figure 3). First, graduates with little or no debt may be less likely to choose primary care because they often come from wealthier families (ie, a socioeconomic status effect). The socioeconomic status of a students’ family of origin strongly predicts their educational debt.8,12,18,19 High socioeconomic status also predicts specialization.8,17,19 The reasons for this association remain relatively unexplored but may be related to higher income expectations among students from wealthier families. Second, public school graduates with very high debt may be less likely to choose primary care because they perceive a need for the higher financial return of specialization to finance their debt (ie, a deterrent effect).7 "

One study that analyzed responses from an AACOM survey of pending Osteopathic medical school graduates found that for graduates with high debt burden, students who used loan forgiveness/repayment programs had higher rates of entering primary care fields, while high debt students who did not utilize these programs were were more likely to enter non–primary care specialty fields, with this trend increasing as mean medical school debt increased.

The connection between student loan debt burden and the need for more primary care physicians appears to be one of the main motivations behind some medical schools moving towards tuition free med school. In their press release from August 2018, NYU spoke to this topic:

"Overwhelming student debt is fundamentally reshaping the medical profession in ways that are adversely affecting healthcare. Saddled with staggering student loans, many medical school graduates choose higher-paying specialties, drawing talent away from less lucrative fields like primary care, pediatrics, and obstetrics and gynecology...“Tuition-free medical education goes beyond the merit and financial scholarships, and debt cancellations that other academic centers have traditionally favored,” says Rafael Rivera, MD, MBA, associate dean for admissions and financial aid. “More importantly, it addresses both physician shortages and diversity.”

Quite recently, physician organizations have been bringing this issue to the attention of Congress, in asking for more financial support for medical school graduates entering primary care fields. On June 12th, the U.S. House Committee on Small Business held a hearing entitled "The Doctor Is Out. Rising Student Loan Debt and the Decline of the Small Medical Practice." Here, a representative from the American College of Physicians spoke about how the ACP acknowledges that the burden of student debt can deter students from entering primary care, and they advocated for increased funding for scholarships and loan repayment programs for primary care physicians. In a written testimony submitted to this hearing, the American Academy of Family Physicians also voiced their support for such legislation that would support the education of primary care physicians.

While it's clear that student loan debt is not the only factor contributing to a shortage of primary care physicians, it does appear to be playing a tangible role that has raised concerns from medical schools and physician organizations alike. Promising research on the benefits of student loan forgiveness/repayment programs will hopefully continue to address the increasing demand for more physicians in general.
 
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The issue of high student loan debt influencing specialty choice and how this ties into the US doctor shortage is being looked at very closely by physician organizations. The AAMC issued an updated report last April which estimated that there will be a shortage of approximately 122,000 physicians by 2032, encompassing around 55,000 primary care physicians, 12,000 medical specialists, 13,000 surgical specialists, and 40,000 other specialists (such as pathologists, neurologists, radiologists, and psychiatrists.)

This data highlights the need to understand what factors contribute to specialty choice, something that several studies have reported on. One study examining data from the AAMC's Medical School Graduation Questionnaire found an inverse relationship between debt levels and intention to enter primary care. This trend was strongest for students who owed more that $150,000. This study also pointed out that factors such as gender and race strongly influenced specialty, indicating that several factors are contributing to graduating medical students choices.

Another study published in 2014, A Retrospective Analysis of the Relationship Between Medical Student Debt and Primary Care Practice in the United States, supports this idea that the reasoning behind students choice of medical specialty is multi factorial. Researchers found that debt levels as well as public vs private schooling and socioeconomic status influenced specialty choice. For graduates of public med schools, researchers found an inverse relationship between debt levels and intention to practice primary care. For all graduates overall, they found that students with little to no debt, as well as students with very high debt, were less likely to chose primary care. They propose a few possible explanations for these findings:

" We believe that 2 important relationships contribute to this curve (Figure 3). First, graduates with little or no debt may be less likely to choose primary care because they often come from wealthier families (ie, a socioeconomic status effect). The socioeconomic status of a students’ family of origin strongly predicts their educational debt.8,12,18,19 High socioeconomic status also predicts specialization.8,17,19 The reasons for this association remain relatively unexplored but may be related to higher income expectations among students from wealthier families. Second, public school graduates with very high debt may be less likely to choose primary care because they perceive a need for the higher financial return of specialization to finance their debt (ie, a deterrent effect).7 "

One study that analyzed responses from an AACOM survey of pending Osteopathic medical school graduates found that for graduates with high debt burden, students who used loan forgiveness/repayment programs had higher rates of entering primary care fields, while high debt students who did not utilize these programs were were more likely to enter non–primary care specialty fields, with this trend increasing as mean medical school debt increased.

The connection between student loan debt burden and the need for more primary care physicians appears to be one of the main motivations behind some medical schools moving towards tuition free med school. In their press release from August 2018, NYU spoke to this topic:

"Overwhelming student debt is fundamentally reshaping the medical profession in ways that are adversely affecting healthcare. Saddled with staggering student loans, many medical school graduates choose higher-paying specialties, drawing talent away from less lucrative fields like primary care, pediatrics, and obstetrics and gynecology...“Tuition-free medical education goes beyond the merit and financial scholarships, and debt cancellations that other academic centers have traditionally favored,” says Rafael Rivera, MD, MBA, associate dean for admissions and financial aid. “More importantly, it addresses both physician shortages and diversity.”

Quite recently, physician organizations have been bringing this issue to the attention of Congress, in asking for more financial support for medical school graduates entering primary care fields. On June 12th, the U.S. House Committee on Small Business held a hearing entitled "The Doctor Is Out. Rising Student Loan Debt and the Decline of the Small Medical Practice." Here, a representative from the American College of Physicians spoke about how the ACP acknowledges that the burden of student debt can deter students from entering primary care, and they advocated for increased funding for scholarships and loan repayment programs for primary care physicians. In a written testimony submitted to this hearing, the American Academy of Family Physicians also voiced their support for such legislation that would support the education of primary care physicians.

While it's clear that student loan debt is not the only factor contributing to a shortage of primary care physicians, it does appear to be playing a tangible role that has raised concerns from medical schools and physician organizations alike. Promising research on the benefits of student loan forgiveness/repayment programs will hopefully continue to address the increasing demand for more physicians in general.
All of that is completely ignoring his point.

The proportion of US students going into any given specialty has f--- all to do with the actual # of people going into the specialty. After the match/SOAP, more or less 100% of all residency programs in the US fill. The remaining couple hundred spots unmatched nationwide are almost all undesignated prelims and are a rounding error at best.

What does that mean? That means the primary determinant factor in the number of PCPs being trained is the number of residency spots in the specialties. Period. All that reshuffling debt and other motivations does is change the demographics of who is filling those spots - if there's less US grads applying for FM and they want to do EM instead, that just means more foreign grads will match FM.

So you could make zero debt a universal thing and it won't change the supply of PCPs one iota. The only thing that could increase the # of PCPs is increasing the number of PCP residency slots. Which has nothing to do with debt.

The only exception there is for choice of subspecialization vs hospitalist vs PCP work within internal medicine and pediatrics. But people subspecialize within IM for reasons that have nothing to do with debt, and even then the primary factor is the physical # of spots in different specialties vs the total # of internists graduating each year.
 
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Willing to loan is different than willing to loan at a non-predatory rate.

Like I said, when I look up private loans they are around 10 percent.

No way I can justify going to medical school for that amount. Going to college would have been tough to swallow.
Higher than you want to pay doesn’t mean it’s predatory
 
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All of that is completely ignoring his point.

The proportion of US students going into any given specialty has f--- all to do with the actual # of people going into the specialty. After the match/SOAP, more or less 100% of all residency programs in the US fill. The remaining couple hundred spots unmatched nationwide are almost all undesignated prelims and are a rounding error at best.

What does that mean? That means the primary determinant factor in the number of PCPs being trained is the number of residency spots in the specialties. Period. All that reshuffling debt and other motivations does is change the demographics of who is filling those spots - if there's less US grads applying for FM and they want to do EM instead, that just means more foreign grads will match FM.

So you could make zero debt a universal thing and it won't change the supply of PCPs one iota. The only thing that could increase the # of PCPs is increasing the number of PCP residency slots. Which has nothing to do with debt.

The only exception there is for choice of subspecialization vs hospitalist vs PCP work within internal medicine and pediatrics. But people subspecialize within IM for reasons that have nothing to do with debt, and even then the primary factor is the physical # of spots in different specialties vs the total # of internists graduating each year.

Good point. In terms of what AnatomyGrey12's point was, I couldn't gather much from "Food for thought, you are completely wrong" other than the fact that he was disagreeing with me.
 
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Oddly enough, when I applied for Sallie Mae before med school the rate for me was around 9.5%
Depends on credit score and income (the latter probably being the bigger problem for most students).

For what its worth, the interest rate shouldn't affect this all that much.

Let's say you need to borrow 200k for med school. Let's also assume a 10 year repayment.

At the 9.5% you were quoted, you'll end up paying the bank 310k.

At the current 6.5-ish government rate, you'll pay back 272k.

38k over the course of 10 years isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things. Its not nothing, but its not worth getting all up in arms over (not saying you are, for the record).

Its even less if you do the smart thing and refinance after residency. We did that, current interest rate is 3.25%.
 
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What about people who made sacrifices instead of taking out loans? "Sorry you struggled to work to put yourself through college and now someone who went on a luxury vacation to a private east coast school is even better off than you." He's absolutely vile.

Cap interest, sure, maybe create a path to bankruptcy when it really doesn't work out for someone.

But erasing all debt and putting it on the shoulders of more responsible people? I can't even fathom that. Ideally college just needs to be trimmed down. Gen ed requirements that rehash high school account for so much of degree requirements...
 
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All of that is completely ignoring his point.

The proportion of US students going into any given specialty has f--- all to do with the actual # of people going into the specialty. After the match/SOAP, more or less 100% of all residency programs in the US fill. The remaining couple hundred spots unmatched nationwide are almost all undesignated prelims and are a rounding error at best.

What does that mean? That means the primary determinant factor in the number of PCPs being trained is the number of residency spots in the specialties. Period. All that reshuffling debt and other motivations does is change the demographics of who is filling those spots - if there's less US grads applying for FM and they want to do EM instead, that just means more foreign grads will match FM.

So you could make zero debt a universal thing and it won't change the supply of PCPs one iota. The only thing that could increase the # of PCPs is increasing the number of PCP residency slots. Which has nothing to do with debt.

The only exception there is for choice of subspecialization vs hospitalist vs PCP work within internal medicine and pediatrics. But people subspecialize within IM for reasons that have nothing to do with debt, and even then the primary factor is the physical # of spots in different specialties vs the total # of internists graduating each year.

The number of available PGY-1 positions increases every year. I agree that student loan debt does not directly effect the number of available PCP residency slots, which is the limiting factor to how many PCP's get churned out every year. However if loan forgiveness/repayment plans/financial support actually did increase the number of graduates who are trying to match into primary care residencies, don't you think the supply of residency slots would increase over time to meet this increased demand?
 
The number of available PGY-1 positions increases every year. I agree that student loan debt does not directly effect the number of available PCP residency slots, which is the limiting factor to how many PCP's get churned out every year. However if loan forgiveness/repayment plans/financial support actually did increase the number of graduates who are trying to match into primary care residencies, don't you think the supply of residency slots would increase over time to meet this increased demand?
No. I don't. The determining factor for the number of spots doesn't have much to do with the number of applicants. It's all a question of funding and will.
 
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