PhD/PsyD Saybrook University - PhD in Clinical Psychology

[nurse2doc2367]

Hi all!
Posting for a friend, who wants advice on attending Saybrook and how a degree from this institution is looked at by the clinical psychology community.

Her end goal is to be a private practice psychology however, she would like to work in a hospital as well.

Does anyone have any tips or advice on attending Saybrook?

Finances are not a problem in this case, just more about expected licensure issues in CA and the reputation Saybrook might hold

Thanks in advance

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[Seven_Costanza]

Hi all!
Posting for a friend, who wants advice on attending Saybrook and how a degree from this institution is looked at by the clinical psychology community.

Her end goal is to be a private practice psychology however, she would like to work in a hospital as well.

Does anyone have any tips or advice on attending Saybrook?

Finances are not a problem in this case, just more about expected licensure issues in CA and the reputation Saybrook might hold

Thanks in advance

Yikes. Do a search on this board for Saybrook. That’s a big hellllll no.

 

[psych.meout]

It's an online, unaccredited program. That should always be a hard pass.

 

[Temperance]

It's an online, unaccredited program. That should always be a hard pass.

To clarify, since Saybrook University advertises itself as "accredited": The clinical psychology program is not accredited by APA, which is what matters. Attending an unaccredited program would shut your friend out of employment at many agencies.

 

[PsyDr]

Remember when their alumni threatened to sue me because I called it a crap school?

It’s a write away degree. That’s not how psychologists are trained. The clinical training is not standardized. Everyone in the field knows what this school is. And everyone looks down on it. I doubt they’ll be able to get their students licensed in 10-20 years.

 

[nurse2doc2367]

Is APA accreditation that important if the goal is either private practice or working within schools? I know some of the schools in our area including Chicago Professional School, Fielding, and Alliant are APA accredited but all seem no different than Saybrook.

 

[PsyDr]

Yeah, schools with actual buildings, actual clinical training locations, and traditional faculty are exactly the same as a school with none of those.

Let me guess: your friend can’t take off work, so they think they can somehow magic a doctorate in their spare time, even though that degree takes everyone else 5-9 years of full time work.

All of this matters. Schools have a bureaucracy, and are only used to real schools. If the market is competitive, this BS education will be brought up. If anything ever hits court, this will be brought up.

Hint: schools= kids. Kids= custody disputes. Custody disputes= mental health workers beig dragged into court.

 

[nurse2doc2367]

Yeah, schools with actual buildings, actual clinical training locations, and traditional faculty are exactly the same as a school with none of those.

Let me guess: your friend can’t take off work, so they think they can somehow magic a doctorate in their spare time, even though that degree takes everyone else 5-9 years of full time work.

All of this matters. Schools have a bureaucracy, and are only used to real schools. If the market is competitive, this BS education will be brought up. If anything ever hits court, this will be brought up.

Hint: schools= kids. Kids= custody disputes. Custody disputes= mental health workers beig dragged into court.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your input. My friend is a single mom with three kids who was admitted only into Saybrook. What is the professional consensus on a school such as Fielding?

 

[PsyDr]

Ah, I see. Thank you for your input. My friend is a single mom with three kids who was admitted only into Saybrook. What is the professional consensus on a school such as Fielding?

IMO:

Equally as poor. At minimum, psychologists train full time for 5-7 years. Usually we have to relocate for our version of residency. It's a lot of hard work. People trying to get the same rewards for about 10% of the effort and sacrifice are HIGHLY looked down upon. There is a lot of competition for jobs in this field. Many employers and faculty here have said they throw away applications from these places. I would.

In life, there are disreputable places that will try to sell you the idea that you can get what others have without paying the same price. That you can get the same rewards with a fraction of the effort and sacrifice. I believe it is wisest to run from these people.

One would also be wise to notice when places make statements like, "our curriculum aligns with state regulations in X states, where our students MAY SEEK licensure....". Reputable schools are required to state exactly how many students got licensed. Not "sought licensure". Not "may seek". This is a standard in psychology, law, medicine, etc. This type of indirect verbiage, IMO, is a bad sign. It's like seeing, "you could lose UP TO 30lbs.".

In the 60s-70s, and maybe 80s, things were a lot less formalized for psychology, and Fielding might have been more successful at this time. Things are very much formalized now, and increasing in formality every year.

Your friend doesn't get a pass from the field's requirements. She should be cautious if anyone says otherwise.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah, I see. Thank you for your input. My friend is a single mom with three kids who was admitted only into Saybrook. What is the professional consensus on a school such as Fielding?

Hard pass, Fielding students struggle to get accredited internship positions and licensure. Waste of a LOT of money.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Didn't Fielding go under? Or wait...I think I'm thinking of some rando school that was in Missouri.

 

[WisNeuro]

Didn't Fielding go under? Or wait...I think I'm thinking of some rando school that was in Missouri.

No, but they are currently on probation, for like the gajillionth time...

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Didn't Fielding go under? Or wait...I think I'm thinking of some rando school that was in Missouri.

You are thinking of the Forest Institute.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

You are thinking of the Forest Institute.

Thaaaat's the one. We used to have some of their grads doing outpatient forensic evals when I lived down south. The absolute worst evaluation's I've ever read.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Saybrook would be a giant mistake.

 

[ReciproGal]

Here is the WSCUC (accrediting agency) report on Saybrook for 2018. Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited, and while their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states. Your friend just needs to make sure their state board allows non-APA (but APA-equivalent schools) to pursue licensure. Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook. You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

https://www.saybrook.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SayU-Team-Report-AV-spring-2018.pdf

 

[PsyDr]

Here is the WSCUC (accrediting agency) report on Saybrook for 2018. Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited, and while their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states. Your friend just needs to make sure their state board allows non-APA (but APA-equivalent schools) to pursue licensure. Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook. You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

https://www.saybrook.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SayU-Team-Report-AV-spring-2018.pdf

yeah, don’t listen to everyone else! What could possibly go wrong with that approach?!

I hear timeshares are a great investment!

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I've never even heard of this place. Enough said.

 

[psych.meout]

Here is the WSCUC (accrediting agency) report on Saybrook for 2018. Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited, and while their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states. Your friend just needs to make sure their state board allows non-APA (but APA-equivalent schools) to pursue licensure. Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook. You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

https://www.saybrook.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SayU-Team-Report-AV-spring-2018.pdf

So you're saying, don't listen to other people's opinions.....except yours and other people promoting Saybrook, and look at the data......except the major data points that they can't get APA-accreditation (the minimum standard of the field) and are owned by the same company that owns other notorious diploma mills?

 

[WisNeuro]

You really need to look up the definition of libelous.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Here is the WSCUC (accrediting agency) report on Saybrook for 2018. Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited, and while their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states. Your friend just needs to make sure their state board allows non-APA (but APA-equivalent schools) to pursue licensure. Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook. You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

https://www.saybrook.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SayU-Team-Report-AV-spring-2018.pdf

First post.
Is still a student per profile.
Just created their profile to bump a thread from months ago.
Contradicts everyone else in here, including countless training faculty and licensed professionals with PhDs

Current betting line for being employee at Saybrook is -400.

 

[Mama Bear]

Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook.

This aspect doesn’t sweeten the deal.

 

[foreverbull]

California is EXTREMELY saturated with psychologists and therapists, as someone who lives there. From a very practical standpoint (what I always tell students and other folks deciding on grad school) is to never put yourself in a position in which an employer would have an easy reason to toss out your application, including attending online and/or non-APA-accredited school because there are always a lot of applicants to choose from in California from reputable schools, so why as an applicant would you put yourself at such an extreme disadvantage from the start?

If your friend wants the option to work in hospitals, APA-accreditation is a must for a doctorate.

I’d encourage your friend to look into what it would take to get into an APA-accredited clinical or counseling psychology program if the friend is truly set on that path, or perhaps look into reputable master’s programs for social work (clinical emphasis), which also allows psychotherapy private practice and possibly working in a hospital, although the duties will be different than a psychologist’s. Or an MFT/counseling master’s degree, although those folks don’t typically get hired to work in hospitals. All of those degrees allow private practice after licensure, however.

 

[psych.meout]

First post.
Is still a student per profile.
Just created their profile to bump a thread from months ago.
Contradicts everyone else in here, including countless training faculty and licensed professionals with PhDs

Current betting line for being employee at Saybrook is -400.

This part in particular seems telling:

While their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited,

Not sure how this is relevant. CACREP accredits masters-level programs in counseling. Counseling is a wholly separate field from psychology. There is no doctoral-level licensure for counseling.

It is like saying their underwater basket weaving program is accredited. Has no relation to psychology.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is like saying their underwater basket weaving program is accredited. Has no relation to psychology.

Yeah...but have you seen the quality of their baskets?!

 

[deleted343839]

You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

Hopefully, if the OP or others in their situation are still paying attention, they'll ask themselves why someone might (1) create a user name to commenting on a post that hasn't been active since last August, (2) slip in some marketing language that is meant to flatter applicants while misinforming them, and (3) imply (falsely) that criticism of their program might be actionable by law. It's not hard to see this for what it is.

 

[psychlife19]

Here is the WSCUC (accrediting agency) report on Saybrook for 2018. Their counseling program is CACREP-accredited, and while their PhD Clinical Psychology is not seeking APA accreditation, many students have graduated from the school and gotten licensed in their states. Your friend just needs to make sure their state board allows non-APA (but APA-equivalent schools) to pursue licensure. Also, TCS Education System, who also owns the Chicago School of Professional Psychology (APA-accredited program), owns Saybrook. You need to look at the data and stay connected with your state board, not listen to libelous opinions of individuals who are still biased and trapped in the brick-and-mortar mindset when the paradigm of education is vastly changing.

https://www.saybrook.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SayU-Team-Report-AV-spring-2018.pdf

The state I live in is tightening up their psychologist licensure requirements, even for people who are already licensed in another state and now are applying for licensure in my state. My site for practicum has an intern (so she is an intern at a non appic/apa-accredited internship!!!) and came from a school that is not APA accredited and is not seeking accreditation.
Said intern is now very stressed in group supervision because she may not be allowed to become licensed in our state as we won’t recognize her classes, and will possibly need to move back home or only get licensed at Master’s level.

(Keeping details non-identifiable on purpose)

Now if it was me, and I cried and sacrificed money/time/relationship quality for 5 years, only to find out I might not get licensed...i would be losing my *bleep* I really feel for her.

 

[msc545]

Our tolerance of these garbage schools is killing our profession.

 

[nurse2doc2367]

Hello all! Thank you for your debate, input, and conversation. She ended up not choosing to attend Saybrook Univerisity!

 

[forensic13]

I think this asterisk on their webpage is very telling...

 

[R. Matey]

I think this asterisk on their webpage is very telling...
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I'm speechless.

 

[ReciproGal]

I think this asterisk on their webpage is very telling...
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That’s the PhD Psychology, not PhD Clinical Psychology. Yes, there are many hoops to jump through if going to a non-APA school. Not all states accept them for licensure. But some do, and I think students bank on that. I know many from Saybrook who have gotten licensed (hence why I am advocating for my non-traditional friends). A colleague went to California Southern (non-APA) and just received her provisional license and is working on postdoc hours. Another went to Walden (also non-APA), got an APA internship, became an APA internship training director at one point, and now works solely in private practice.

In essence, it’s what you make of it and depends on what barriers you’re willing to endure. I’ve also met clinicians from APA schools that should not have become clinical psychologists.

While I can appreciate the APA as a standardizing, governing body, it’s still a large bureaucracy. Would I recommend going non-APA? Probably not. But it’s possible to still get licensed.

 

[ReciproGal]

Aaaaand cue another crucifixion lol.

Cheers y’all

 

[WisNeuro]

Possible, and modal, are two very different things.

 

[PsyDr]

I always noticed that when Saybrook gets mentioned, its supporters throw around terms related to lawsuits.

I’ve never seen any Ivy do that.

 

[WisNeuro]

I always noticed that when Saybrook gets mentioned, its supporters throw around terms related to lawsuits.

I’ve never seen any Ivy do that.

That's libelous! That's slanderous! That's slibelous! Saybrook's lawyers, Geoffrey Fieger and Michael Cohen will be sending you a letter soon!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

APA-acred was setup as the absolute MINIMUM level of training needed to be proficient (in the eyes of the APA). Frankly, APA-acred standards are too laxed, which makes non-APA acred programs feel even sketchier.

Students plan to be the exception in those programs, but that approach is fraught w. pitfalls. The most obvious pitfall I see someone who hires clinicians is "Why would I risk even interviewing a candidate for a job from a non-APA acred internship and/or non-APA acred program when there are PLENTY of applicants from solid university programs also applying?" I want the fewest barriers to hire a person. Rolling the dice on someone who may not be licensable in my state....no thank you.

This field is quite small once you find your niche, so being able to talk with trusted colleagues and acquaintances familiar with the program and/or clinician happens quite a bit.

It's an uphill argument to even consider someone w/o a formal post-doc or fellowship, the latter being nearly required for practice in most/all speciality areas. Those are competitive enough, let alone coming from a non-APA acred program that is not viewed in a positive light by the vast majority of the field. It sounds snobby, but I'm speaking honestly as someone who has been on numerous search committees and also hired directly to my private practice. The last counselor I hired beat out 2 psychologists who came from Walden (licensed at the MA/MS level) and Cal Southern (still seeking licensure).

Any prospective students reading this thread....do yourself a favor and avoid all of these programs bc the field already has enough qualified competition, let alone students from online/hybrid programs.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Students plan to be the exception in those programs, but that approach is fraught w. pitfalls.

Yes. Let’s say that you are the exception. You will be surrounded by students with, based on my frequent and recent interactions with and observations of students from a similar program (actually a big name FSPS):
-poor clinical skills
-poor professional habits (frequently late or absent, late with reports, etc., with no real understanding that it’s even a problem, let alone why it’s a problem)
-Horrendous academic skills, including writing, math (not stats- basic test scoring calculations)
-Poor statistical and research training and abilities. Anecdote- for a dissertation, proposing to use inferential stats (anova) to prove there is no difference between the experimental and control groups. The main hypothesis of the study was the null hypothesis. Other committee members did not see this as an issue.
-many of their “dissertations” were no more than unsystematic literature reviews, which were often referred to as “qualitative research.”

I have worked with the exceptions from this program- competent, conscientious, and intelligent clinicians. Their CVs looked exactly he same as the other ones- same courses, same practice sites and supervisors, etc. Even similar face-to-face interview skills. Literally indistinguishable from each other. You may be the exception, but it sure takes a lot of work for us to identify you as such.

 

[PsyDr]

That's libelous! That's slanderous! That's slibelous! Saybrook's lawyers, Geoffrey Fieger and Michael Cohen will be sending you a letter soon!

Since the truth is an absolute defense to such claims, they’d have to prove that I have never actually seen that. If I said something about their quality, like the last time one of their students threatened to sue me, then they’d have to open their outcome data to a jury, and demonstrate that I factually knew that what I said was incorrect, and that my sole opinion substantially financially damaged their business (again by opening their internal documents for review). I'm not so worried.

[QUOTE="Therapist4Chnge, post: 21598135, member: 117748"
Students plan to be the exception in those programs, but that approach is fraught w. pitfalls.
[/QUOTE]

IMO: this is an issue of WHO one is used to comparing oneself to. If you attend a party state school and get straight As, you're gonna feel a LOT smarter than the average college graduate, based upon your sampling. The problem becomes when someone changes the comparison group and fails to recognize that things have changed.

Also: highly disagree with the APA being too lax. The requirements are much higher than those required by previous "generations" of psychologists. It's fine to have a minimum set of requirements. But ALL psychologists, including the old dogs, should be subjected to the same requirements. I think as the "old guard" progresses in our careers, it is important to not "slam the door behind us". If one looks at the american bar, there are requirements. However, high flying programs do much more. That seems like a reasonable method. But, in my opinion, Walden and such are not close to sufficient training.