Saying grade replacement was a reason for choosing DO? Bad idea?

[doctor in da makin]

In many secondaries it asks why DO?

Is it ok to list this as one of the reasons (not the primary reason, of course)?

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[DeezNutzonUrChin]

**** no.
Even if it is your primary reason, they dont want to hear it.

This is like saying your reason for chosing your overweight wife is you have a bbw fetish. NO don't mention this at all.
Make something up, find a reason, anything but this.

 

[doctor in da makin]

**** no.
Even if it is your primary reason, they dont want to hear it.

This is like saying your reason for chosing your overweight wife is you have a bbw fetish. NO don't mention this at all.
Make something up, find a reason, anything but this.

I figured, yeah. Was just curious to see if anybody ever did this before. I thankfully have a bunch of reasons (well several) for going for DO

 

[DeezNutzonUrChin]

I figured, yeah. Was just curious to see if anybody ever did this before. I thankfully have a bunch of reasons (well several) for going for DO

Im sure someone has and Im sure they were accepted at some point at some school.
I havent been accepted but from my discussion on the forums, visiting DOs/shadowing, and speaking to program directors/admissions staff you have to remember many of these guys have extra sensitive latex free neutrogena hypoallergenic organic vegan feelings. You say one thing wrong and you might ruin your chances.

They consistently want to hear they are better than MD programs or at par with them and definitely dont want to hear they are being used as a backup institution.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

definitely dont want to hear they are being used as a backup institution.

They know they are a back up. They don't care. I do agree that you shouldn't say that OP. If you want then say something with spin like, "I feel that DO schools truly look at the whole applicant and that is how I felt like I wanted to be looked at as I was applying" or something like that. Being too honest is a real thing

 

[DeezNutzonUrChin]

They know they are a back up. They don't care. I do agree that you shouldn't say that OP. If you want then say something with spin like, "I feel that DO schools truly look at the whole applicant and that is how I felt like I wanted to be looked at as I was applying" or something like that. Being too honest is a real thing

They know they are a backup, but if you tell them they are a back up its only hurting your chances. No one wants to be told they arent the favorite child. Your second part makes sense.

 

[DrMikeP]

In many secondaries it asks why DO?

Is it ok to list this as one of the reasons (not the primary reason, of course)?

You might as well also say because DO is easier to get into, no MD school would have me, I just want to be a doctor, etc

Say why you want to be a DO physician, not why you are applying to a DO med school.

 

[Goro]

Instant reject!

You're going to have to do better.

And no, I'm not helping either.

In many secondaries it asks why DO?

Is it ok to list this as one of the reasons (not the primary reason, of course)?

 

[GBCrzzyy]

Agree with all of the above.

you have to remember many of these guys have extra sensitive latex free neutrogena hypoallergenic organic vegan feelings.

I laughed so hard when I read this. Thank you

 

[235009]

They're asking you to regurgitate back their propaganda to them with an anecdote or two about how a DO you shadowed listened intently or hugged a patient. They just want to know that you're aware of the marketing materials in the hopes that you'll use them in the future.


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[MADD!!!]

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[MADD!!!]

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[AnatomyGrey12]

This is soooo not true! Just because going DO is a backup for some people does not mean it's a backup for all. After shadowing a few DO's and really getting the feel for their environments and their patients, they would choose going DO again in a heartbeat. I don't want to start an MD vs. DO war, but it's not just a backup option and the DO philosophy aligns very well with 21st century delivery of healthcare.

Yes it is. For almost all DO students it's true, yes there are a handful who choose it over MD but give all those DO applicants a 3.7 and a 512 and See how many vastly change their school list. It would be more than 95%. If DO schools had averages equal to MD without grade replacement I would believe it, but there is a reason the average DO matriculant had a 3.5/503, that just doesn't cut it for MD these days

When will people realize that there is no "DO philosophy"? There is good medicine, and that's it. Whether or not you practice it is up to the doctor, not the degree. Claiming to be doing something philosophically different from MDs is insulting to MDs everywhere and a flat out lie.

 

[235009]

This is soooo not true! Just because going DO is a backup for some people does not mean it's a backup for all. After shadowing a few DO's and really getting the feel for their environments and their patients, they would choose going DO again in a heartbeat. I don't want to start an MD vs. DO war, but it's not just a backup option and the DO philosophy aligns very well with 21st century delivery of healthcare.

It should be a backup for everyone. There is no professional advantage to going DO.


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[MADD!!!]

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[AnatomyGrey12]

I definitely agree with you on some points, but disagree on others. Even though MD and DO have equal rights and privileges, they aren't the same. I'm most likely being biased here, but the patients I see at the DO physicians LOVE them because of the way they are treated. They feel like theyre being treated holistically (many said it to me verbally themselves), they love the OMM (it's like a massage for them, and it helps them with their health), they love how much time the physician takes to listen to each of them, they love the focus on prevention and other alternatives used as opposed to medication every time (something my physician says she got from her DO training specifically). Even the PA's that do rotations with us notice the difference.

I would have been in total agreement with you guys, but seeing this in practice with my own eyes has me amazed that the DO claims are indeed true. BUT, the physician is in primary care where I think the differences are most apparent.

This is by no means an insult to MD's, BUT the MD perspective on providing healthcare is not as preventive as the DO approach in my opinion.

And I've seen MDs do the exact same things and patients rave about how special the doctor makes them feel. It is purely a result of the physician himself and it has literally nothing to do with his DO school teaching him something more "holistic"

You are entitled to your opinion but the bolded is 100% not true and is insulting to MDs everywhere. It insinuates that DOs somehow care more about patients than MDs do. Don't drink the kool-aid. Like I said, this is all physician dependant and not really related to the degree.

 

[235009]

I definitely agree with you on some points, but disagree on others. Even though MD and DO have equal rights and privileges, they aren't the same. I'm most likely being biased here, but the patients I see at the DO physicians LOVE them because of the way they are treated. They feel like theyre being treated holistically (many said it to me verbally themselves), they love the OMM (it's like a massage for them, and it helps them with their health), they love how much time the physician takes to listen to each of them, they love the focus on prevention and other alternatives used as opposed to medication every time (something my physician says she got from her DO training specifically). Even the PA's that do rotations with us notice the difference.

I would have been in total agreement with you guys, but seeing this in practice with my own eyes has me amazed that the DO claims are indeed true. BUT, the physician is in primary care where I think the differences are most apparent.

This is by no means an insult to MD's, BUT the MD perspective on providing healthcare is not as preventive as the DO approach in my opinion.

It's understandable that when someone doesn't know any better and doesn't have the option to go MD that they'd do all they can to convince themselves of the silliness presented above.
Also don't worry about MDs being insulted. When you've already made it to the top you don't care how others try to justify themselves.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And now since MT is here I will bow out.

In summary for OP, they know they are a back up and are ok with that but whatever you do DO NOT say that in an interview or on an application. I am very grateful DO exists or my 18 year old self would have ruined my chances of ever being a doctor. That is an advantage of DO schools, they look for diamonds in the rough sometimes and take risks on applicants that statistically might not be the prettiest but will still make great physicians. I will be extremely honored to be a DO.

 

[MADD!!!]

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[OrdinaryDO]

Im sure someone has and Im sure they were accepted at some point at some school.
I havent been accepted but from my discussion on the forums, visiting DOs/shadowing, and speaking to program directors/admissions staff you have to remember many of these guys have extra sensitive latex free neutrogena hypoallergenic organic vegan feelings. You say one thing wrong and you might ruin your chances.

They consistently want to hear they are better than MD programs or at par with them and definitely dont want to hear they are being used as a backup institution.

They know they are a back up. They don't care. I do agree that you shouldn't say that OP. If you want then say something with spin like, "I feel that DO schools truly look at the whole applicant and that is how I felt like I wanted to be looked at as I was applying" or something like that. Being too honest is a real thing

Yes it is. For almost all DO students it's true, yes there are a handful who choose it over MD but give all those DO applicants a 3.7 and a 512 and See how many vastly change their school list. It would be more than 95%. If DO schools had averages equal to MD without grade replacement I would believe it, but there is a reason the average DO matriculant had a 3.5/503, that just doesn't cut it for MD these days

When will people realize that there is no "DO philosophy"? There is good medicine, and that's it. Whether or not you practice it is up to the doctor, not the degree. Claiming to be doing something philosophically different from MDs is insulting to MDs everywhere and a flat out lie.

Yeahhh, NO. I would never pick a school because of the letters behind my name after graduation. I choose institutions based on their merit, quality of teaching, and the kind of quality of life they offer over the 4+ years. Unless I am qualified for a top MD school (I say MD because the schools I am talking about are all MD), then I am going DO all the way. The school I got into is on par with the stats of my state MD school and wayyyy friendlier. The MD vs DO war is for people with ego problems, because 9 times out of 10 if you are a good student you will get where you want to be in the end either way.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I guess I don't consider myself narrow-minded enough to see why some DO's actually love and pride being DO's.

And you shouldn't, there is nothing wrong at all with having pride in an achievement that took years of hard work and sacrifice. I know I sure will. People who judge you because of the letters (only the few uneducated *****s) can suck rice with a straw.

 

[235009]

Funny. I guess I don't consider myself narrow-minded enough to see why some DO's actually love and pride being DO's. I see benefits for why some MD's choose MD, and DO's chose DO. I could write an essay on it, but in short: DO is better for primary care (For reasons stated above) , MD is better if you want to do a more competitive specialty (more research options, NIH funding, teaching hospitals).

An MD could do everything a DO could do and vice versa, but the training of the schools aren't exactly the same. I would love to go into more detail regarding my experiences, but it would be a dead giveaway on my app.

Lastly, if someone wants to do a specialty or surgery, I would definitely recommend MD over DO.

Sorry if I'm annoying anyone with these super long posts. If any of you would like to discuss this more, feel free to PM me.

With all due respect to your "experiences" as a pre-med.... as someone who has actually had to practice primary care during residency I can tell you with confidence that there is absolutely no advantage to going DO over MD if you want to do primary care. Being a DO doesn't make the 10 minutes you have with a patient any longer and it doesn't allow you to code a visit at a higher level for how holistically you treated the patient. Let me be very clear about this: you should go MD over DO if you have the opportunity to regardless of what specialty you are currently interested in. MD is a huge advantage even if you want to do IM primary care or family medicine. Anyone who tells you differently is either lying or uninformed.

Yeahhh, NO. I would never pick a school because of the letters behind my name after graduation. I choose institutions based on their merit, quality of teaching, and the kind of quality of life they offer over the 4+ years. Unless I am qualified for a top MD school (I say MD because the schools I am talking about are all MD), then I am going DO all the way. The school I got into is on par with the stats of my state MD school and wayyyy friendlier. The MD vs DO war is for people with ego problems, because 9 times out of 10 if you are a good student you will get where you want to be in the end either way.

No. This is wrong. Go look at the match lists. Look at IM for instance since good IM programs are usually the same as good med schools. You'll find that there's a much larger difference in results between MD and DO schools. In fact DO match lists are more comparable to SGU's than they are to low and mid tier MD schools. Admission stats are completely meaningless. Especially when comparing to a state school that has to take a certain large percentage of its students from a smaller pool of state residents.

 

[MADD!!!]

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[235009]

You want to know the difference? My DO doc is full all day. It takes 2 months to get an appointment with her and she is seeing patients back to back for 8 hours a day. I have seen many primary care or specialty docs who can't say the same. Not only that, but many patients do come to her just for prevention and there is nothing wrong with them.

In other words being a DO, dare I say it, is good for business.

Your statements are getting more ridiculous.
No doctor, particularly in primary care, is lacking in patients. The demand is essentially unlimited. Some people would see the doctor weekly if they were allowed to.
No doubt that doctor you shadowed is well liked by her patients but that has nothing to do with being a DO and more to do with who she is as a person.
Prevention is part of a PCP's job. I don't recall ever saying "I'm sorry, since I'm an MD I don't believe in giving you that vaccine or prescribing that colonoscopy/mammogram or doing that pap smear. You should go see a DO for that"

 

[MADD!!!]

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[235009]

Honestly, I think you're right. I just see how awesome she is, and she's a DO, and I just attribute the DO aspect to her success.

And by business I want to clarify that, at least in my area, there are an abundant number of physicians (metro city). So patients here have many many choices of which physician to choose from. And with that, the focusing for DO's on holistic care, spending more time with patients, and OMM makes patients more inclined to choose a DO out of their choices. I really, really dont want to be or come off as a person who wants to do something more profitable in medicine, BUT would definitely want my patients happy, to have a full patient load, and for them to want to return to me as long-term patients.

I understand that it's enticing to try and generalize the experience you've had shadowing this one person but I'm telling you from my more extensive experience that it has nothing to do with her being a DO. If you do have an opportunity to go to any US MD school...take it! You won't find any resident/attending/adcom member who will tell you otherwise.

 

[toutou]

OP, did you shadow a DO at all? If you did, reflect on that day and go from there.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hey guys... lets try to not get into the MD vs DO argument, as it's not like either is going away any time soon. It has also been beaten to death on SDN and is way off topic from OP's post.

 

[235009]

Hey guys... lets try to not get into the MD vs DO argument, as it's not like either is going away any time soon. It has also been beaten to death on SDN and is way off topic from OP's post.

Is this some sort of attempt at auditioning to be a moderator?
You know you can't put that on your CV.

 

[Stagg737]

Honestly, I think you're right. I just see how awesome she is, and she's a DO, and I just attribute the DO aspect to her success.

And by business I want to clarify that, at least in my area, there are an abundant number of physicians (metro city). So patients here have many many choices of which physician to choose from. And with that, the focusing for DO's on holistic care, spending more time with patients, and OMM makes patients more inclined to choose a DO out of their choices. I really, really dont want to be or come off as a person who wants to do something more profitable in medicine, BUT would definitely want my patients happy, to have a full patient load, and for them to want to return to me as long-term patients.

There's some truth to this, but not how you might think. I've talked to a few MD's who want to learn OMM because some patients walk out of the office feeling physically better after an OMM treatment, like the guy that says "My lower back hasn't felt this relaxed in years! Even after taking (insert narcotic here)." Is it going to be a long-term fix? Obviously not, and you're still going to give the same treatment plan as the MD for them to take home. However, part of medicine is connecting with your patients and helping them feel better overall as well as trying to get patients to stay with you long-term in FM (the business side). Plus, with reimbursement moving more and more into the direction of "patient satisfaction", having your patients walking away feeling physically better is only going to help your scores.

I understand that it's enticing to try and generalize the experience you've had shadowing this one person but I'm telling you from my more extensive experience that it has nothing to do with her being a DO. If you do have an opportunity to go to any US MD school...take it! You won't find any resident/attending/adcom member who will tell you otherwise.

Generally speaking, yes. However there are a few situations where DO would be more advantageous than MD, though not in terms of professional outlook. Location, personal/family goals, and to a lesser extent money. I'm one of those people that chose DO over an MD (that's not saying there weren't other MD schools I would have chosen over my DO school, but the one I turned down had too many negatives), but I also knew coming in that it wouldn't hinder me in my goals compared to attending the MD I turned down. I agree that 98% of the time MD is the better option over DO though.

 

[DrMikeP]

Is this some sort of attempt at auditioning to be a moderator?
You know you can't put that on your CV.

LOL... No too busy for that and my CV is full enough already. I'm just tired of seeing threads end up in this ridiculous argument that accomplishes nothing. It's like arguing which luxury car is best when the only difference might be one having a bit better resell value.

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[Ho0v-man]

I was pretty straightforward in my interviews. I said that I think that DO schools probably emphasize investigation of psych/social issues that may affect the way a pt presents to some degree based on my anecdotal experiences and I'm interested in receiving training that emphasizes those principles.

I also pointed out that the most holistic doctor I know is actually an MD and that to say that DOs provide holistic medicine and imply that MDs do not is a real slap in the face to the great MDs and if anything gives too much credit to plenty of DOs.

I also said that if I could get into my state MD that I would, not necessarily to be an MD instead of a DO, but for cheaper tuition.

Yes. I said all of this in my interviews. You don't have to pretend to be something you're not if you know how to phrase it and respond appropriately to follow up questions. Although it was scary to do this...


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[ATPsynthase123]

In fact DO match lists are more comparable to SGU's than they are to low and mid tier MD schools. Admission stats are completely meaningless. Especially when comparing to a state school that has to take a certain large percentage of its students from a smaller pool of state residents.

I can't agree with you here.

The average DO school had match rates into the low 90s if you count SOAPing into a residency last minute (88-89% if you don't).

The average MD school has match rates into the mid to high 90s if you count SOAPing into a residency (mid 90s if you don't).

SGU has match rates around 50-75%, and that is those that survive the 50% attrition rate. So if 100 people start at SGU this year, only 25 of them will make it through the curriculum and successfully Match.

As for quality I like the thanksgiving turkey analogy. MDs admittedly get the best spots (ortho, academic medicine, surgery Etc.) so essentially the white meat. DOs come second and get the dark meat (low-mid tier programs, AOA surgery spots, and what competitive MD programs will take them). SGU comes last and gets the scraps, so essentially the gizzards, livers, hearts and bones.

From what I have read, going DO only locks you out of the high end research residencies and makes getting into very competitive specialties more difficult.You should have no issues getting into a decent program MD or DO so long as you don't have red flags like failing a year, failing COMLEX/STEP etc.


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[235009]

I can't agree with you here.

The average DO school had match rates into the low 90s if you count SOAPing into a residency last minute (88-89% if you don't).

The average MD school has match rates into the mid to high 90s if you count SOAPing into a residency (mid 90s if you don't).

SGU has match rates around 50-75%, and that is those that survive the 50% attrition rate. So if 100 people start at SGU this year, only 25 of them will make it through the curriculum and successfully Match.

As for quality I like the thanksgiving turkey analogy. MDs admittedly get the best spots (ortho, academic medicine, surgery Etc.) so essentially the white meat. DOs come second and get the dark meat (low-mid tier programs, AOA surgery spots, and what competitive MD programs will take them). SGU comes last and gets the scraps, so essentially the gizzards, livers, hearts and bones.

From what I have read, going DO only locks you out of the high end research residencies and makes getting into very competitive specialties more difficult.You should have no issues getting into a decent program MD or DO so long as you don't have red flags like failing a year, failing COMLEX/STEP etc.


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1. I never said anything about match/placement rates. For the time being DOs have AOA residencies as a fallback so the numbers are obviously going to be quite high.

2. Take a look at the match lists. The programs are of similar caliber between SGU and any DO school. For instance 80-90% community programs in IM. The ceiling (with regards to what can be achieved in the acgme match) is quite similar too.



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[Ho0v-man]

1. I never said anything about match/placement rates. For the time being DOs have AOA residencies as a fallback so the numbers are obviously going to be quite high.

2. Take a look at the match lists. The programs are of similar caliber between SGU and any DO school. For instance 80-90% community programs in IM. The ceiling (with regards to what can be achieved in the acgme match) is quite similar too.



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Curious to get your opinion on what you think it takes in terms of applicants from SGU vs DO. Would more be expected from one vs the other to match at the same caliber program overall (ignoring biases of specific programs the favor DO over IMG or vice-versa)? This forum would lead one to believe that DO students are overwhelmingly preferred over IMGs, but there's a palpable bias as well.

Don't get me wrong guys. DO>>>>Carib.


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[235009]

Curious to get your opinion on what you think it takes in terms of applicants from SGU vs DO. Would more be expected from one vs the other to match at the same caliber program overall (ignoring biases of specific programs the favor DO over IMG or vice-versa)? This forum would lead one to believe that DO students are overwhelmingly preferred over IMGs, but there's a palpable bias as well.

Don't get me wrong guys. DO>>>>Carib.


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There isn't enough data to answer your question. You are greatly overstating the advantage of DO and at the same time twisting what I said. First of all I'm only talking about SGU which is the most established and has the best outcomes of the Caribbean schools. The rest are all garbage. Forget this "big 4" notion. In the Caribbean there's SGU and then a heap of trash.

The main advantage to DO school is the availability of protected residency spots that offers an avenue to specialization for top students and a safety net for poor students. Other advantages include staying state-side for the first two years and traveling less during the last two (though this varies). With the merger the first advantage is going to disappear.

All that said just go look at the match lists. It's essentially the same community programs in primary care specialties that are overrepresented in similar proportions at DO schools and SGU. Obviously going DO is better because so many people wash out of SGU but then you have to take two board exams etc. Both are less than ideal options.


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[futureDOFuture]

I think grade replacement Breeds well rounded physicians. You get people who was able to see other aspects of life outside of books. Than they comeback regain focus and bring more outside experience into Medicine. It just makes us more relatable to the patient

 

[summergirl]

Some of these posts are ridiculous. I won't quote every single one because there's too many. The fact is there are of course some people voluntarily choose DO over MD for whatever reason and that's fine, but it's not true to say that MDs are unable to provide the same level of care as DOs. Just because you met a great DO doesn't mean there are no great MDs in existence. And doing grade replacement does not equal seeing other aspects of life outside of books. You are assuming the people who does not need grade replacement did not see other aspects of life, AND you are assuming the people who did grade replacement took significant time off between 1st take and retake to explore the outside world in a constructive manner.

 

[Ho0v-man]

There isn't enough data to answer your question. You are greatly overstating the advantage of DO and at the same time twisting what I said. First of all I'm only talking about SGU which is the most established and has the best outcomes of the Caribbean schools. The rest are all garbage. Forget this "big 4" notion. In the Caribbean there's SGU and then a heap of trash.

The main advantage to DO school is the availability of protected residency spots that offers an avenue to specialization for top students and a safety net for poor students. Other advantages include staying state-side for the first two years and traveling less during the last two (though this varies). With the merger the first advantage is going to disappear.

All that said just go look at the match lists. It's essentially the same community programs in primary care specialties that are overrepresented in similar proportions at DO schools and SGU. Obviously going DO is better because so many people wash out of SGU but then you have to take two board exams etc. Both are less than ideal options.


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I apologize for twisting your words, I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to, though.

When I say DO>>>Carib (including SGU), as you said, I'm referring to getting to stay in the country and just having an overall much higher chance of becoming a doctor. But I'm just curious that if one is actually able to survive a Caribbean school and make it to the match if DOs overall have any kind of edge over IMGs. The only evidence that seems to exist on this forum is anecdotal and probably biased by how much more heavily represented DOs are compared to IMGs on these boards. Guess it doesn't matter since it won't change what I'm going to do.

Thank you for your input. I find it beneficial, even if it isn't necessarily what I want to hear.


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[JB50]

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[235009]

What's up with MT and such a negative attitude towards DO? Hope no DO working around you gets the demeaning vibes your giving off. I have never heard that MD's make better doctors than DO's nor can the patients usually tell. This whole argument is stupid.

Please point to were I said something "demeaning" or that MDs are better doctors than DOs?
I didn't.
Not because you disagree with me (or your ego is hurt by what I said) doesn't mean that I'm insulting you or anyone else.

 

[JB50]

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[ChrisMack390]

"So why did you apply to Tufts?"
"Well the median GPA at Harvard is a lot higher than mine!"

How do you think that would fly?

 

[tony101]

It's understandable that when someone doesn't know any better and doesn't have the option to go MD that they'd do all they can to convince themselves of the silliness presented above.
Also don't worry about MDs being insulted. When you've already made it to the top you don't care how others try to justify themselves.

Please point to were I said something "demeaning" or that MDs are better doctors than DOs?
I didn't.
Not because you disagree with me (or your ego is hurt by what I said) doesn't mean that I'm insulting you or anyone else.

Also don't worry about MDs being insulted. When you've already made it to the top you don't care how others try to justify themselves.

lololololololol

To the OP, don't say that. That is going to be an auto reject.

 

[JB50]

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[AlteredScale]

Please refrain from attacking or flaming other users and keep the topic of this threa civil and on topic.

Use the ignore feature at the bottom if you no longer wish to see a users post.


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[doctor in da makin]

OP, did you shadow a DO at all? If you did, reflect on that day and go from there.

Yes, 2 of them.

It's crazy how out of control these forums can get so quickly.

 

[DantheManimal]

Thought I'd add my 2 cents. I am a reapplicant this year so it's a little different, but I scratched my generic PS from last cycle and basically rewrote my entire statement around this idea. I wasn't afraid to admit that the reason why I chose DO originally was primarily due to grade replacement policy. However, I made the case that I am glad I was forced down this path because I wouldn't have seen OMM demonstrations last cycle, perhaps never shadowed a DO (which I was inspired to do so because of those OMM demonstrations), and perhaps never seen OMM in action or truly appreciated the DO philosophy before entering medical school. My point is that you can mention it if you do it the right way and apply the proper spin. I wanted to start out my statement owning the fact that I was a reapplicant, owning the truth, and being grateful for what life gave me because now I'm more knowledgeable and more psyched to be a physician in general, not just a DO.