Scheduling later interviews and what it means to get invite

[Bearie]

Hi all,

First, I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of invites I've gotten so far (I was the neurotic person that applied to very many programs). For a typical program, what percent of applicants are invited to interview? And is everyone interview ranked somewhere on their list? I'm trying to get a sense of what an invite means in terms of how interested a program is (i.e. do they send them to everyone who applies or only very few who have a good chance of matching or somewhere in between?)

I was also curious if scheduling later in to process (i.e. December) would hurt my chances at a program when options include October. Does it make me appear less interested? More importantly, do early interviewees have better chances?

Finally, I read the other thread, but how important is attending dinners? I assumed attending the dinner and showing good social skills would be particularly important in psych, but is this the case? I should note that interview well but am not very good at working crowds, so could it actually hurt my chances if I go to the dinner?

Thank you very much!

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[notdeadyet]

For a typical program, what percent of applicants are invited to interview? And is everyone interview ranked somewhere on their list? I'm trying to get a sense of what an invite means in terms of how interested a program is (i.e. do they send them to everyone who applies or only very few who have a good chance of matching or somewhere in between?)

It varies pretty radically, Bearie, depending on the competitiveness of the program.

I was also curious if scheduling later in to process (i.e. December) would hurt my chances at a program when options include October. Does it make me appear less interested? More importantly, do early interviewees have better chances?

No, I wouldn't bother gaming it at that level. Folks who interview early will tell themselves they are dealing with fresh interviewers. Folks who interview late will tell themselves they are will stick in the minds of PDs as the ROL gets constructed. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

I'd only recommend two things:

1. Don't schedule your dream interview first; you will get better at it. Don't schedule your dream interview last if you're doing a bunch; you will get burned out and it really, really shows.

2. Don't pack in more than one interview a week. Everyone thinks that they can pull off a marathon of 3 or even 4 in a week, but avoid it if you can. No one is as fresh on the third interview in a given week than they are in the first. Avoid.

Finally, I read the other thread, but how important is attending dinners? I assumed attending the dinner and showing good social skills would be particularly important in psych, but is this the case? I should note that interview well but am not very good at working crowds, so could it actually hurt my chances if I go to the dinner?

I posted my thoughts on the other thread, but I think it's important to come if you can. If for no other reason than to learn about the program better. I went to all but one of the 12 interviews I went on and I don't regret any of them. You get a good feel for the personality of the program.

I'm a terrible schmoozer and I didn't feel put upon on them. It's not like you're vying for attention and trying to wow a big group of people while others watch. They tend to be casual affairs and the residents (at the better dinners) are the ones that move around and talk to folks. People try to come to you and pull you aside to say hello. I think the only other time this happened to me was at my wedding.

 

[rkaz]

1. Don't schedule your dream interview first; you will get better at it. Don't schedule your dream interview last if you're doing a bunch; you will get burned out and it really, really shows.

My dream interview is my very first one. I chose it as it was a perfect day for me, since I happened to have that day off of my rotations already.... as I hate taking days off (as I'm worried that my days off will be noted in my evaluation, which may prevent me from graduating on time due to too many days off to interview). It is their first interview date of the season also, so I guess both me and the interviewers will be rusty. The only good side (I think) is that I did an away elective at this place, so they already know me somewhat.

 

[psychattending]

Hi all,

First, I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of invites I've gotten so far (I was the neurotic person that applied to very many programs). For a typical program, what percent of applicants are invited to interview? And is everyone interview ranked somewhere on their list? I'm trying to get a sense of what an invite means in terms of how interested a program is (i.e. do they send them to everyone who applies or only very few who have a good chance of matching or somewhere in between?)

I was also curious if scheduling later in to process (i.e. December) would hurt my chances at a program when options include October. Does it make me appear less interested? More importantly, do early interviewees have better chances?

Finally, I read the other thread, but how important is attending dinners? I assumed attending the dinner and showing good social skills would be particularly important in psych, but is this the case? I should note that interview well but am not very good at working crowds, so could it actually hurt my chances if I go to the dinner?

Thank you very much!

From a PD's viewpoint it really does not make a difference when you interview. You are treated the same. My impression is that applicants tend to drop their later interviews more often than earlier ones. I do not know the reason for that. It could be either that they schedule less preferred ones later and then drop them once they see the field or they just run out of money.

I would recommend that you go to dinner as others have pointed out here and elsewhere. It is one of the better ways to get to know the more social aspects of a program and the personality of the residents.

 

[Soggun]

I was also curious if scheduling later in to process (i.e. December) would hurt my chances at a program when options include October. Does it make me appear less interested? More importantly, do early interviewees have better chances?

Finally, I read the other thread, but how important is attending dinners? I assumed attending the dinner and showing good social skills would be particularly important in psych, but is this the case? I should note that interview well but am not very good at working crowds, so could it actually hurt my chances if I go to the dinner?

Thank you very much!

I realize I'm an n of 1 and all that, but I went on a crazy amount of interviews (>20) because I wanted to use the opportunity to see a lot of programs and travel. Ultimately, I wound up having the last interview of the last day with our program director and here I am as a PGY-3 having thoroughly enjoyed my experience thus far. Long story short: from both my applicant experience as well as some experience seeing it from the other side, at least in my program there doesn't appear to be any difference when you interview.

With respect to the dinners, I would say that going is pretty important. Not an absolutely terrible thing if you miss it, but current resident's feedback does matter and ultimately you probably want to also get an idea if you think you'd gel with any given program's community of residents. Just my 2 cents.

 

[shan564]

From a PD's viewpoint it really does not make a difference when you interview. You are treated the same. My impression is that applicants tend to drop their later interviews more often than earlier ones. I do not know the reason for that. It could be either that they schedule less preferred ones later and then drop them once they see the field or they just run out of money.

Toward the end of the interview season, I cancelled at a couple of the programs that would have been low on my rank list because it became pretty clear that I wouldn't have had to go that low down on my list. I scheduled a lot of interviews because I'm an IMG and I was uncertain about how much that would hurt me. One of my later interviews ended up around #6ish on my list (they were actually a very good program, but my top 5 were just better fits for me), but based on the feedback that I had at that interview, I was 99.5% sure that I wouldn't have to go below #6. So I figured it'd be pointless to spend money going to any more interviews for places that weren't likely to be in my top 5. Although I might have still given them a chance if they'd paid for my hotel.

 

[SmallBird]

My dream interview is my very first one. I chose it as it was a perfect day for me, since I happened to have that day off of my rotations already.... as I hate taking days off (as I'm worried that my days off will be noted in my evaluation, which may prevent me from graduating on time due to too many days off to interview). It is their first interview date of the season also, so I guess both me and the interviewers will be rusty. The only good side (I think) is that I did an away elective at this place, so they already know me somewhat.

Don't worry! Notdeadyet was only making recommendations - I interviewed at my top choice first, and it went well, remained my top choice, and I matched there. So there is no reason you couldn't have it go the same way.

Also, I want to say that I did do 3 interviews in a week, so whilst I agree this is not ideal, it certainly can work and it is possible to have a good experience at each place despite this.

 

[rkaz]

One of my later interviews ended up around #6ish on my list (they were actually a very good program, but my top 5 were just better fits for me), but based on the feedback that I had at that interview, I was 99.5% sure that I wouldn't have to go below #6. So I figured it'd be pointless to spend money going to any more interviews for places that weren't likely to be in my top 5. Although I might have still given them a chance if they'd paid for my hotel.

I'm really glad things worked out for you, but I am curious as to what was told to you to make you so sure that you'd be accepted to your top 5. We have been told many times not to put too much weight on positive feedback from programs, so it seemed like a risky gamble, especially being an IMG. Don't mean to sound negative in any way towards you, as I'm not at all... but I'm wondering, since I'm about to start the interview process myself.

I'm a DO student on the opposite end of the spectrum with 12 interviews, and hoping for a few more to be safe. Likely your stats were much better than mine, but I still think it took some serious cajones for you to stop after 5. I think I'm more risk adverse.

 

[rkaz]

Don't worry! Notdeadyet was only making recommendations - I interviewed at my top choice first, and it went well, remained my top choice, and I matched there. So there is no reason you couldn't have it go the same way.

Awesome, glad to know this as I prepare myself mentally for tomorrow's interview. Thanks for chiming in!

 

[Iamnotme]

My dream interview is my very first one. I chose it as it was a perfect day for me, since I happened to have that day off of my rotations already.... as I hate taking days off (as I'm worried that my days off will be noted in my evaluation, which may prevent me from graduating on time due to too many days off to interview). It is their first interview date of the season also, so I guess both me and the interviewers will be rusty. The only good side (I think) is that I did an away elective at this place, so they already know me somewhat.

I wouldn't sweat it. I matched at the advanced program that I interviewed first at (not in psych obviously). As long as you are nice, reasonable, and polished, I think you will do a good job. Matching is not just about being a good interviewer or having a good record, there are many factors - how others do, how others rank programs, how many IVs people go on, etc, Don't try to game the system it doesn't work. Just do your best and things typically fall into place.

Best of luck!

 

[splik]

my first interview was a nightmare. like you i interviewed on columbus day and happened to be the only applicant (didn't realize it was a non-official day). I was ill, and couldn't sleep so was really tired. I actually fell asleep in the waiting room before one of my interviews and the interviewer had to wake me up! and i had my flies open the whole time with my interview with the PD. I could hardly think or speak. Incidentally this was interpreted positively, and the PD said she was amazed at how 'quiet, modest and unassuming' I was and would love to have me at the program! They knew it was my first interview and made some comment about how I'd be a pro by the end of the season. I didn't rank them but I bet I would've ended up there if ranked them #1.

It's not ideal to interview at your dream place 1st and it won't be your best interview but I'm sure you won't blow it. I made a number of other faux pas in my other interviews too! at my yale interview, one interviewer was not impressed when I told my friend say their would by syringes in the food at the pre-interview dinner, what with it being New Haven. He said 'I don't know how to respond to that!'. Also I was ill (again) and one interviewer kept asking 'did you know that your eye is really red?' (of course I did!) and then kept asking whether he wanted me to call an ophthalmologist! at another interview, the PD called me into his office to tell me how honored he had been to be invited to my med school, I was caught off guarded, was munching a danish and spent the whole time choking on it, while he was either oblivious or not concerned preceded to regale me with war stories. At my Hopkins interview they asked what I thought about Baltimore, and I said "I liked the wire, and where I grew up there was blood on the streets as people were being murdered on my street all the time so I'm not bothered about living in Baltimore." there was a very long pause...

 

[3882370]

my first interview was a nightmare. like you i interviewed on columbus day and happened to be the only applicant (didn't realize it was a non-official day). I was ill, and couldn't sleep so was really tired. I actually fell asleep in the waiting room before one of my interviews and the interviewer had to wake me up! and i had my flies open the whole time with my interview with the PD. I could hardly think or speak. Incidentally this was interpreted positively, and the PD said she was amazed at how 'quiet, modest and unassuming' I was and would love to have me at the program! They knew it was my first interview and made some comment about how I'd be a pro by the end of the season. I didn't rank them but I bet I would've ended up there if ranked them #1.

It's not ideal to interview at your dream place 1st and it won't be your best interview but I'm sure you won't blow it. I made a number of other faux pas in my other interviews too! at my yale interview, one interviewer was not impressed when I told my friend say their would by syringes in the food at the pre-interview dinner, what with it being New Haven. He said 'I don't know how to respond to that!'. Also I was ill (again) and one interviewer kept asking 'did you know that your eye is really red?' (of course I did!) and then kept asking whether he wanted me to call an ophthalmologist! at another interview, the PD called me into his office to tell me how honored he had been to be invited to my med school, I was caught off guarded, was munching a danish and spent the whole time choking on it, while he was either oblivious or not concerned preceded to regale me with war stories. At my Hopkins interview they asked what I thought about Baltimore, and I said "I liked the wire, and where I grew up there was blood on the streets as people were being murdered on my street all the time so I'm not bothered about living in Baltimore." there was a very long pause...

Amazing you got a spot!

 

[Psychotic]

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[Firewood]

Splik's tale is the reason applicants need to schedule as many interviews as possible, because not every one of them will be swell - some days you will be on your toes, the others not so much. And some programs will impress, and others will leave you wondering why you bothered. Interview at enough places to confidently rank your top half dozen or so, and to be really safe, rank around 10 programs. To get that many rankable places, it may take 12+ interviews...YMMV...but my goal is a dozen interviews.

I think you're being a little overly cautious here. Looking at the "Charting Outcomes in the Match", US seniors have a 90% chance of matching if they rank (and presumably interview at) 4 programs. 95% at 6. The chance of not matching looks like it really drops off after ranking 8. Even the independents (DO's, IMG's, people with year's off) seem to have little benefit after ranking 10. This data is also info from 2011, and the number of available psych positions has gone up year over year for the last 5 years.

Interviews get exhausting. You have to be "on" and excited about psychiatry at all of them, despite being asked the same questions over and over. Add in the travel, poor sleep, airport food, etc., and they can really wear a person down.

12 interviews is a lot. If you're really committed to ending up in a certain location or setting, or are couples matching, go for it. But I think something in the area of 8 is much more reasonable.

Best wishes for you (and all of this years applicants) on the interview trail.

 

[Psychotic]

I think you're being a little overly cautious here. Looking at the "Charting Outcomes in the Match", US seniors have a 90% chance of matching if they rank (and presumably interview at) 4 programs. 95% at 6. The chance of not matching looks like it really drops off after ranking 8. Even the independents (DO's, IMG's, people with year's off) seem to have little benefit after ranking 10. This data is also info from 2011, and the number of available psych positions has gone up year over year for the last 5 years.

Interviews get exhausting. You have to be "on" and excited about psychiatry at all of them, despite being asked the same questions over and over. Add in the travel, poor sleep, airport food, etc., and they can really wear a person down.

12 interviews is a lot. If you're really committed to ending up in a certain location or setting, or are couples matching, go for it. But I think something in the area of 8 is much more reasonable.

Best wishes for you (and all of this years applicants) on the interview trail.

While I am sure you are right about 8 interviews, it is pretty hard when you are sitting on this side of the fence to limit it to 8. For me, 12 is the max I can see doing; I think 10 is the more likely end result - I am thinking about canceling a couple right now that have created a travel problem. I want a little extra cushion in case there is a program or 2 that I would not want to rank under any circumstances.

 

[Firewood]

I was on that side of the fence, too, and remember how nerve-wracking it can be. Just trying to pass on what I discovered in the process of switching sides and trying to calm some of the pre-interview anxiety that's going around.

Again, best of luck!

 

[splik]

Splik's tale is the reason applicants need to schedule as many interviews as possible, because not every one of them will be swell - some days you will be on your toes, the others not so much. And some programs will impress, and others will leave you wondering why you bothered. Interview at enough places to confidently rank your top half dozen or so, and to be really safe, rank around 10 programs. To get that many rankable places, it may take 12+ interviews...YMMV...but my goal is a dozen interviews.

you missed the point! my point is despite what i thought were pretty bad interviews, they obviously didn't think they went that badly (apart from yale, im pretty sure they blacklisted me!). We tend to focus on things that other people might not even notice or are willing to overlook. I only went on 8 interviews, and ranked 6 programs. that was enough even as an IMG. I would not advise going on more than 10 interviews unless you're feeling really flush.

 

[Nasrudin]

you missed the point! my point is despite what i thought were pretty bad interviews, they obviously didn't think they went that badly (apart from yale, im pretty sure they blacklisted me!). We tend to focus on things that other people might not even notice or are willing to overlook. I only went on 8 interviews, and ranked 6 programs. that was enough even as an IMG. I would not advise going on more than 10 interviews unless you're feeling really flush.

Prolly was worth it though huh? Cause you can take that ridiculously funny story with you for a lifetime. Of course, Yale is a great program. I wish I could've filmed some of those bloopers and lived some of them vicariously because a pair of brass balls of that magnitude are trickier to tote around with American sized debt to reconcile.

Regardless I appreciate both of your stories. Because I'm thinking of dropping one of my interviews at a hospitable distance out from it for cost reasons and the fact that I don't see myself living or working there. It's just that I too had the mythical 10-12 interview number idea in my head for match assuredness and if I drop it I'd be at 8 right now.

What's a polite timeframe for cancellation--3 weeks?

 

[Nasrudin]

My other thought on hitting the right amount of interviews to match well is that one person's 6 interviews and match at 1-2 could be someone else's 15 interviews and march at number 9. The match data are averages.

Right?

So wouldn't it be contextual to the applicants market value?

 

[Psychotic]

What's a polite timeframe for cancellation--3 weeks?

The rules call for a minimum of 2 weeks notice, but any additional time you can give a program would be thoughtful.

The programs expect people to cancel - they know what is going on - they know that people schedule interviews, and then juggle them, cancel or reschedule, etc.

 

[Psychotic]

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[Nasrudin]

On the other hand, one's market value must be linked to some extent to the ability to get interview offers, right? Really strong applicants may be able to get away with picking and choosing from a bevy of offers to attend a half dozen interviews, and at the same time, really weak applicants may only get a half dozen interview offers in total and run the risk of being "that guy" who doesn't match.

The number of interviews I will attend is dictated by time, money, and physical stamina - I have all of November and December off, and I am fairly "flush" for this process, too. Even so, balancing the physical demands against attaining a magic number, the most interviews I plan to do in this 2 month period - allowing also for 2 holiday weeks - is 9 or 10 interviews, and that is going to become my magic number.

Half of those interviews are concentrated in a small geographic area and I will not have to fly. Half of them involve planes and I think these are the physically tougher ones to attend (not to mention more complicated to plan and pay for). One I am thinking about canceling is in the gray zone - a little too far to drive easily, and a ridiculously expensive plane ride. And it is the 5th interview at the end of a 3 week period (the first 3 weeks of interviewing when I should be at my physical peak), and I am already anticipating that could be one interview too many.

I also have built in 2 weeks off between interviews around Thanksgiving, another full week off in mid November, and ending with the final interview of Dec a full week plus before XMAS. I only have 2 weeks with 2 interviews scheduled in them - not ideal, but not too bad. And one of them is on the chopping block; in fact this discussion leads me to the conclusion that I need to cancel that pesky 5th interview and free up my schedule a bit, and breathe a little easier, thus making my magic number 9, with a couple held in reserve for January.

I have a couple of interviews scheduled in January, too, during a light elective, and I will do them if I feel I need them, or I may just cancel them. Chances are I will cancel, but I don't have to do that until I have nearly all of these other interviews under my belt, and by then I should have a much better idea of how well it has gone.

Yeah. Thanks. I'm gonna do 10 and keep what I have. But I'm going to reschedule to give myself a week of rest and preparation before my top program. 10-15 will depend on serendipity of my favored cities late in the game.

You're smart to space it out some and I'm taking your lead for my top choice but for me it's mostly plane tickets. So I have to fly then drive and pack'em together for a return flight without having to make another trip to a specific area. So 2-3 PE week is what I need to do. So far mostly 2 per week.

I'm doing a 4 week stint on the road. I probably will be coming back this time nex year to tell people to space them if they can. For now I gotta ride it out.

 

[AthensBeth]

Splik, where did you interview where they value "modest, quiet, and unassuming" people? I'm interested in such a place. I'm limited in where I can end up, but I hope it's a place like that.