School mandated vendor for medical equipment purchases for 1st year?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

tinyhandsbob

Full Member
2+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
Messages
166
Reaction score
59
At a program at that shall remain unnamed, the incoming class recently received an email from the primary care faculty. To summarize, it demanded all incoming students purchase their stethoscope and medical equipment needed for doctoring classes from a specific private company, for a specific, rather high price. The email also specified that failing to purchase their equipment from that company (and sending the receipts to the primary care department to prove it) may have their 'professionalism' grade lowered in the class because the use of equipment purchased anywhere else would lead the students to be 'unprepared' and thus 'unprofessional'. It was a rather strange email especially that the same new equipment can be purchased from any number of suppliers, so clearly meant to force students to purchase the equipment from the faculty's vendor of choice and threatening non-complying students with academic sanctions.

I am curious, how common of a practice is this at other medical schools? Any other schools where this is happening?

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Dislike
  • Angry
Reactions: 2 users
At a program at that shall remain unnamed
This is not common at all, please consider naming and shaming if possible. The coercion on their part is unprofessional and future applicants should take note.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
You aren’t doing anyone any favors by not naming and shaming..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I am curious, how common of a practice is this at other medical schools?
Unheard of.

Such a practice will likely continue (and make someone wealthy at the expense of students) if not exposed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
This is not common at all, please consider naming and shaming if possible. The coercion on their part is unprofessional and future applicants should take note.
It's at a DO program...Touro California. My friend was accepted, then withdrew and selected other program after email went out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
This is outrageous. We were given a list of "recommended" vendors and model names, but most of my class bought cheap used crap off Ebay instead. You cant hear/see anything with these as a student no matter the quality.
Same with me. Though I will say that there can be something to be said for buying a decent stethoscope at the time. I still use the one I bought for med school 16 years ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Yeah that’s shady AF and honestly may be illegal if there’s any sort of school or faculty financial interest in the company. An anonymous tip to the local media and state AG office is probably not a bad idea, especially if the reporting student didn’t ultimately attend the school and has nothing to lose there.

I do feel it’s important to have good equipment. Early on, it’s nice to know that any issues are just user error and not equipment malfunctions. But you can buy good equipment anywhere, the most popular option traditionally being from upperclassmen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Same with me. Though I will say that there can be something to be said for buying a decent stethoscope at the time. I still use the one I bought for med school 16 years ago.
Agree, I think splurging on a good stethoscope is the one good equipment purchase for med students. Doesn't need to be one of the ridiculously fancy ones, but it's embarrassing enough having a hard time identifying murmurs because of inexperience, no need to compound it with bad equipment. It's the only thing on the suggested supply list I have used very regularly throughout med school

My oto/ophthalmoscope set only ever got used on a handful of SPs (and my sister lol), it currently lives somewhere at the bottom of a drawer with my tuning fork and reflex hammer that I basically never used...

Requiring purchase from a specific vendor and docking professionalism points for going outside that is absolutely gross and exploitative
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Why not just roll it in with tuition and issue the equipment to students. Seems like there is more to this story.,
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why not just roll it in with tuition and issue the equipment to students. Seems like there is more to this story.,
Large entities typically would need to solicit bids from multiple vendors to justify the price of the purchase. Universities that accept federal funds run into trouble if they award no bid contracts to vendors, especially those with higher prices than their competitors. It’s much easier for the program to tell students that they must do it themselves with a weak justification of ensuring quality equipment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It is relatively easy to issue equipment specs and request for bid proposals from multiple vendors to seek price competition. Vendors will step all over each other to submit a low cost bid proposal. I guess the school the OP mentioned did not have the resources to do this?
They would definitely have the resources to do this, but doing so would likely reveal that there are other vendors who offer the same equipment at a lower price (which the OP described above). Based on what the OP wrote I suspect the program may get a better deal on other equipment purchases if students must purchase equipment from them or it is owned by a donor/other connected person. There’s a reason the program is requiring equipment from a certain vendor and that usually comes down to money in the form of discounts or kickbacks or conflict of interest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This sounds all sorts of illegal...
 
Same with me. Though I will say that there can be something to be said for buying a decent stethoscope at the time. I still use the one I bought for med school 16 years ago.

The claim that you've successfully held onto the same stethoscope for 16 years leads me to believe you're cosplaying as a medical professional. Annoyingly am now on my 3rd expensive stethoscope
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Sooo, I'll stick my neck out here. I was clinical faculty at TU-CA and was involved in equipment purchases - several years ago. I can only speak to what happened when I was there. Please don't hate me; this is only my experience and my opinion.

  1. At the time, we used a vendor who actually sold instruments at a group discount.There was a minimum participation rate, which I expect drives the 'you must' message.
  2. If you think you can pick up a Welch Allyn diagnostic set on the cheap, good luck to you. The prices were similar to other actual medical equipment vendors
  3. Physical diagnosis classes depend on the availability of similar instruments; imagine teaching this where the students had multiple brands and grades of instruments that may or may not all work the same, or work at all. Sometimes people would show up with nearly toy-grade instruments. No.
  4. I swear that some students will show up at third year rotations with a $20 stethoscope, which the school will then hear about in the most pejorative terms possible
  5. We allowed people to do their own shopping, but we expected the same models, more or less.
  6. I don't know how other schools handle this issue; way, way back, i was required to buy some pretty expensive instruments. Being in primary care, I still use them. I have my original stethoscope, but it is pretty thrashed after 30 years
  7. I can imagine a school buying a large set of instruments for teaching. I can also imagine a pile of broken and or missing instruments, expensive to repair.
  8. I believe a lot of students sold much of their equipment to incoming M1's at some point.
Again, just my experience and/or personal opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Sooo, I'll stick my neck out here. I was clinical faculty at TU-CA and was involved in equipment purchases - several years ago. I can only speak to what happened when I was there. Please don't hate me; this is only my experience and my opinion.

  1. At the time, we used a vendor who actually sold instruments at a group discount.There was a minimum participation rate, which I expect drives the 'you must' message.
  2. If you think you can pick up a Welch Allyn diagnostic set on the cheap, good luck to you. The prices were similar to other actual medical equipment vendors
  3. Physical diagnosis classes depend on the availability of similar instruments; imagine teaching this where the students had multiple brands and grades of instruments that may or may not all work the same, or work at all. Sometimes people would show up with nearly toy-grade instruments. No.
  4. I swear that some students will show up at third year rotations with a $20 stethoscope, which the school will then hear about in the most pejorative terms possible
  5. We allowed people to do their own shopping, but we expected the same models, more or less.
  6. I don't know how other schools handle this issue; way, way back, i was required to buy some pretty expensive instruments. Being in primary care, I still use them. I have my original stethoscope, but it is pretty thrashed after 30 years
  7. I can imagine a school buying a large set of instruments for teaching. I can also imagine a pile of broken and or missing instruments, expensive to repair.
  8. I believe a lot of students sold much of their equipment to incoming M1's at some point.
Again, just my experience and/or personal opinion.
Thanks for your input. Just curious as you worked there- what was your overall impression of Touro-CA as a medical school in general and the quality of their program?
 
Ha... pretending like a stethoscope really matters. I just use the Tyco plastic one the hospital gives me, put it right under the xiphoid process and listen to all the organs at once. Boom... physical complete.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 6 users
Back in my day, we also didn't have Amazon or internet purchases, so you had to buy your stethoscopes from medical bookstores. Of course, there was only one around so... I guess that's like being required to use a specific vendor, because there was only one. Times change though.

I still have it somewhere. I think its stored in my junk drawer for the reasons listed above.
 
Ha... pretending like a stethoscope really matters. I just use the Tyco plastic one the hospital gives me, put it right under the xiphoid process and listen to all the organs at once. Boom... physical complete.
You're a pediatrician, shouldn't you have one that's covered in stickers of Doc McStuffins?
 
  • Haha
  • Care
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
If true I’m almost certain this is illegal. I don’t know how it’s illegal but probably something to do with coercion or financial conflicts of interest, because the school is obviously making money off this.

My school lumped our equipment in with our tuition and the stethoscope was honestly ****, and I’m sure the school upcharged us, but they at least *tried* to hide it and never punished anyone for using something different. Third year I immediately upgraded to a Littman.
I'm not seeing the illegal part here; I don't see the coercion nor the profit motive for the school.
 
Thanks for your input. Just curious as you worked there- what was your overall impression of Touro-CA as a medical school in general and the quality of their program?
They put in a lot of effort in physical diagnosis and evaluation of skills. Like a lot of schools, students ofter attend many lectures from home at 2x speeds and are hyperfocused on board scores. Like a lot of DO schools, access to academic sites for clinical rotations was limited; I understand some Caribbean schools with deep pockets buy access to places formerly accessible. I know they were working on developing GME programs when I was there, but I haven't kept up. Very unique campus setting.
 
I think the coercive part is requiring a receipt verifying the equipment was purchased from the specified vendor, and threatening institutional action if one does not follow through, as opposed to requiring equivalent / the same equipment from any vendor. Threatening one's standing in the program is coercive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Without seeing the letter mentioned by the OP, I don't know. What I do know is, when I was there we strongly encouraged said vendor (because the group discount wasn't available if participation dropped below a certain threshhold, but their was no adverse action taken if equipment was reasonably close to the requirements. You'd be surprised (or not) how many people test the boundries of those requirements.
 
  • Hmm
Reactions: 1 user
It's at a DO program...Touro California. My friend was accepted, then withdrew and selected other program after email went out.
I've heard a lot of issues with the Touro schools in general, they are very much a business-first school system.
 
The coercion is that they’re docking people professionally if they don’t use that specific brand of equipment and making them provide receipts.

The profit motive is the school getting a kickback for their students buying from the company as a finders fee. My school did that to us with our approved list of drug companies for our drug tests, which was a very specific panel only offered by two companies, one of which was owned by one of our deans.

If the school is simply promoting a group discount that they were able to secure, they’re very open about it by advertising it to the class and saying “if you guys buy through this group discount it’s only $xxx, whereas it’s $xxx at retail price, but we need atleast 50 of you to sign up and commit”.
Are you accusing me of lying about the absence of profit motive? I was the primary contact at the time, so, I would have known about it. I agree, more transparency and less coercion is desirable.
 
Was able to get the actual email- the 3rd pdf is the main one.
 

Attachments

  • 1.pdf
    164.6 KB · Views: 99
  • 2.pdf
    182.5 KB · Views: 69
  • 3.pdf
    288.5 KB · Views: 107
  • Wow
Reactions: 1 users
Was able to get the actual email- the 3rd pdf is the main one.
To be fair, it’s not clear that they’re requiring students to buy from a specific company, only that you buy items that are on an approved list. I agree that it’s left somewhat ambiguous (perhaps deliberately so). Still, it’s not clear to me based on that email that they wouldn’t accept receipts for the same items purchased on Amazon or whatever.
 
Was able to get the actual email- the 3rd pdf is the main one.
"We do have a preferred vendor, who offers significant discounts and benefits if you purchase through them."

They have changed vendors from when my name was on this letter. Clearly, they will allow that stethoscope you got as a graduation present as long as it meets minimum requirements, but otherwise they want you to have the specific models of equiptment.

I think the OP's friend may have overreacted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Im referring to OP’s school, so unless you work there then no. But if you do, then why are you threatening students with punitive action if they don’t use your preferred vendor?
The punative action is if you show up with noncompliant equipment. Pretty clear in the letter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
"We do have a preferred vendor, who offers significant discounts and benefits if you purchase through them."

They have changed vendors from when my name was on this letter. Clearly, they will allow that stethoscope you got as a graduation present as long as it meets minimum requirements, but otherwise they want you to have the specific models of equiptment.

I think the OP's friend may have overreacted.

Yeah, but then it also says:

“I want to reiterate: there are no other options for your medical equipment. This is the required equipment you will need for all four (4) years, while in osteopathic medical school.” Bolding theirs. And then it proceeds to outline a very annoying process for getting your own stuff approved.

I can definitely see why students would think the school is requiring them to buy from that vendor except in a few limited circumstances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Was able to get the actual email- the 3rd pdf is the main one.
The medical store is the same place we had the option to buy the bundle from. Funnily enough, like half our class got their credit cards stolen from buying with them, so might not be the best thing to do
 
Is it just me or the "unprofessional grade deduction" part is totally normal as they are warning students not to use old/subpar equipments. I honestly do not see anything wrong with the letter, as long as your equipments meet the requirement by getting approved by the physician. My school did the same thing, you wanna use MDF cause it looks cooler than Lithmann? cool just let the professor check your stethoscope lol.
 
Sounds like complete horse-puckey. Anyone else get irate when ANYTHING can be labeled as “unprofessional”? Its a catch-all and has lost all meaning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Some of the contradictions in there are stunning:

"This equipment is built to last, and is less expensive, generally, than buying each item individually. Most of your faculty members still have their original Welch-Allyn diagnostic kits, purchased when they were students."

"There is one stethoscope choice. We do not recommend a more expensive or electronic model, as you will not
see any real benefit at this point in your training."

So "buy the stuff we require because it will last you well into your career as a physician.... except stethoscopes"

Oh, and you can't upgrade your stethoscope but you CAN upgrade your ophthalmoscope to panoptic. For reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Be ready for other nonsense from admin at wherever this school is. I guarantee this is the tip of the iceberg. This would be the school where id have minimal contact with admin, keep my head down, try not to get noticed, and just power through.
Ive seen enough nonsense over the years to know it doesnt stop with “equipment.” at this place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Is it just me or the "unprofessional grade deduction" part is totally normal as they are warning students not to use old/subpar equipments. I honestly do not see anything wrong with the letter, as long as your equipments meet the requirement by getting approved by the physician. My school did the same thing, you wanna use MDF cause it looks cooler than Lithmann? cool just let the professor check your stethoscope lol.

No, that is not reasonable. What kind of school gives you professionalism marks for having different equipment?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
No, that is not reasonable. What kind of school gives you professionalism marks for having different equipment?
I think they are referring to not being able to perform exams when necessary due to subpar/faulty equipments.
 
I think they are referring to not being able to perform exams when necessary due to subpar/faulty equipments.

It literally says it can affect your professionalism grade. I definitely forgot to bring my equipment a couple times during preclerkship, and I just used a friend's. No one cared. In real life, all of that equipment is going to be available at the clinic or hospital. I have literally not brought my medical equipment to work on rotations a single time. Docking someone with a professionalism mark over that is ridiculous. I can totally see your grade for that course getting affected if you keep showing up with the wrong/bad equipment or something. But a professionalism mark is a big deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
It literally says it can affect your professionalism grade. I definitely forgot to bring my equipment a couple times during preclerkship, and I just used a friend's. No one cared. In real life, all of that equipment is going to be available at the clinic or hospital. I have literally not brought my medical equipment to work on rotations a single time. Docking someone with a professionalism mark over that is ridiculous. I can totally see your grade for that course getting affected if you keep showing up with the wrong/bad equipment or something. But a professionalism mark is a big deal.
I mark down if you don’t have ECG calipers and a slide rule.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
Sounds like complete horse-puckey. Anyone else get irate when ANYTHING can be labeled as “unprofessional”? Its a catch-all and has lost all meaning.
It's a weaponized term these days.

It used to mean, you know, actual professionalism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Sounds like complete horse-puckey. Anyone else get irate when ANYTHING can be labeled as “unprofessional”? Its a catch-all and has lost all meaning.
Yes, the term has been perverted and weaponized, often by people engaging in unprofessional behavior themselves. And they are allowed to get away with it, making a mockery of professionalism. I haven't seen this much outside of medicine, something should really be done about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yes, the term has been perverted and weaponized, often by people engaging in unprofessional behavior themselves. And they are allowed to get away with it, making a mockery of professionalism. I haven't seen this much outside of medicine, something should really be done about it.
I really don't understand why schools want to jump to that, especially with it ending up on a transcript. It hurts your ability to match....which hurts the school. My mother used to have a saying for that. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I really don't understand why schools want to jump to that, especially with it ending up on a transcript. It hurts your ability to match....which hurts the school. My mother used to have a saying for that. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
Unless they don't report students lost to attrition as unmatched and they plan to use the unprofessionalism angle to make you drop out or kick you out. More likely they are bluffing on lowering your professionalism grade (which does not make it any less distasteful) and/or the faculty who is trying to do it gets stopped at the administration level for the reasons you mentioned. Either way a lot of unnecessary stress for the student.
 
Top