School vs. Clinical Child Psychology

[PickMePickMe]

I realized that I don't know the difference between a school psychologist and a child clinical psychologist. At face value, I'd assume that a Clinical Child Psychology program would provide more training in therapy or psychopathology, but looking through the degree requirements and course offerings for both programs, I realized that there's very little difference. I had applied to both last fall, and have already chosen a school, but I've never really thought about this, or the implications of this difference for each career path. (Too late! )

How fluid are these categories? If there is significant overlap, why is there a distinction between the two?

I guess one reason is that in most(?) states, one can attain licensure as a school psychologist with a Master's, whereas licensure as a psychologist psychologist requires a PhD. But does that mean that once a school psychology PhD becomes licensed, there is no difference in the services that a school psychologist vs. child psychologist can provide?

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[jnine]

Hey there,

Yes there is a lot of overlap about what you can do with the degrees. The possiblities are almost identical, but this varies with state licensing requirements. I think the training is generally different in what is emphasized but this also varies by program.

I chose going for doctorate in school psychology over clinical because my research interests are more psychoeducational and developmental than clinical . I also like tests and measures.

Child clinical psychologists also focus on these things, but I think that they tend to focus more on clinical aspects of behavior than development or education.

 

[FadedC]

In theory a clinical child psychologist should recieve more training in counseling and the diagnosis of disorders and a school pychologist should recieve more educational training and possibly more assessment training. Whether or not that's the case in every school I can't really say.

In terms of what they can do, a clinical child psychologist is not legally allowed to work in a school without significant extra training. A school psychologist is legally allowed to work outside of schools with children and adults (in all states but one) however without extra training you might not have the competency to do so ethically.

My understanding is that it's much easier for a school psychologist to work outside a school then it is for a clinical psychologist to work within one.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I realized that I don't know the difference between a school psychologist and a child clinical psychologist. At face value, I'd assume that a Clinical Child Psychology program would provide more training in therapy or psychopathology, but looking through the degree requirements and course offerings for both programs, I realized that there's very little difference. I had applied to both last fall, and have already chosen a school, but I've never really thought about this, or the implications of this difference for each career path. (Too late! )

School psychology has 3 different degree levels: Masters, Specialist, and Doctorate. I would strongly suggest to anyone looking at school psychology to go for a degree at the doctoral level, as it will open the most doors for you (and hopefully will also provide funding).

Most clinical/counseling psychology programs are generalist programs with options to receive mentorship and take classes in specific areas (child, neuro, forensics, etc). Some programs will offer their degree in a specific area, though those are in the minority.

There are also some clinical/school programs psychology, though this is much less common. I can think of 6-8 combined programs, though they all seem to be in the northeast. If I were looking at doing school psychology and wanted the most flexibility, I would look at these programs.

There is quite a bit of variance between universities and within programs, so it is hard to include/exclude just based on the degree title. It is probably easiest to work backwards, figure out what you want to do, and then find a program that best meets those goals.

Acred. status is an important consideration for any program. Ideally you'd want to attend a program that is APA-acred. (for clinical/counseling psychology) or a NASP-acred. for school psychology. You also need to take into account if students from the particular program can land APA-acred. internship sites. This is less important if you want to be a traditional school psychologist and not practice outside of the school system, though it is more important if you want to have the most opportunities as a psychologist, since many clinical/counseling psychologist jobs req. the applicant to complete an APA-acred. internship.

I guess one reason is that in most(?) states, one can attain licensure as a school psychologist with a Master's, whereas licensure as a psychologist psychologist requires a PhD. But does that mean that once a school psychology PhD becomes licensed, there is no difference in the services that a school psychologist vs. child psychologist can provide?

Maybe. The final say in licensure and practice is the licensing board of each state. Some states are more strict with their scope of practice requirements, though generally they leave it open to interpretation. Scope of practice is the main consideration (can you practice in a particular area competently, and have your work be both ethical and legal?)

For instance, if you are a licensed psychologist and you work with adults with a range of Axis-I disorders, you probably shouldn't handle pediatric assessment cases for a hospital, unless you have significant training in that area prior to taking the cases. It is up to the clinician to be aware of their training and their scope limitations. There are at least 1-2 posts per week on the various psychology list-servs of clinicians inquiring about referrals to do this kind of work without prior training. It can be dicey at best, and the general concensus is to not go into a new area without mentorship.

As for a clinical psychologist practicing in a school setting....it definitely happens, with a range of outcomes. Some school systems will require the school psychologist to have trained in the area (typically completing an internship in a school setting), while other school systems are more lienent with their requirements. Some school psychologists are used only for assessment, while others can do more work with IEP planning, classroom interventions, etc. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable working as a school psychologist without some mentorship to start, though I do have a couple of years of working with children and one year working in a school system doing assessment and intervention work. There are definitely differences in training, and I wouldn't recommend trying to work in the school system without additional mentorship. I know when I first worked in a school setting I had no training in IEP development or the educational standards used within the school system, so I had to seek additional mentorship and training to get up to speed. I also recommend mentorship and additional training for any school psychologist who goes outside of their core training areas.

There has been somewhat of a shift in regard to school psychologists practicing outside of the school system, at least at the Ph.D. level. It is more common to see them in a hospital, in private practice, etc. then it was 10-20 years ago, though the majority of school psychologists still practice within the school system.

 

[FadedC]

Technically when it comes to becoming a school psychologist, there is only doctoral and specialist level. There is no naming consistency when it comes to specialist level degrees, they can be called MA, MS, PD, EdS or any number of different things. But they are all the same. If your not specialist or doctoral level you can't become certified or call yourself a school psychologist. Specialist level programs are 60 credits plus a year long internship, so it's about 3 years.

From a purely financial perspective if you know you 100% want to work in the school for the rest of your life it may make more sense to get a specialist degree. Doctoral level school psychologists make more, but not enough to warrant 2 years of school+expenses. Sometimes specialist level psychologists can even have their entire tuition paid for by the state if they agree to work for the school system for a time. But if you want any flexibility you will want a PhD. It's not uncommon to see specialist level school psychologists return for their PhD.

In terms of working in the school as a clinical psychologist, it's much easier if you get your school internship during your initial training. If you graduate without one, then due to the fact that it has to be an internship where you get your experience, your pretty much out of luck without going back to school for a time. This is why I say it's easier to go from school to clinical then clinical to school, although my understanding of things may not be perfect.

Finally for accreditation, ultimately it's good to have a school that's both APA and NASP accredited. Although APA accreditation may be less important if you don't plan to work outside the school.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'll be a first year in a school psych PhD program in August... My opinion, FWIW...

A few School Psych PhD programs (includsing the one I'll be attending come August) are really more child-clinically focused then others and even bill themselves as such and some are more focused on school-based pratice. While the more child clinically focused programs do require school-based training, they also put a fair amount of emphasis on training in community and/or hospital settings and thus the focus of the coursework/practica is slightly different. PM me if you want to know specific programs.

Practically, everything I heard and read indicates there is a LOT of overlap in training and skills between school and child clinical programs, though tis probably varies considerably by program.

Legally, someone with a PhD/PsyD in School Psych can be licensed as a Psychologist in every state but Wyoming. If you want to do this, shoot for an APA internship; if you know you don't, an APPIC or CDSSP internship may work just fine. Usually, it's expected you'll stick to woreking with families and child/adolescent clients, though I have heard of school psychologist or two who sought out additional post-doc training and worked with adults--but I've only heard one or two stories of that second hand. Conversely, I don't know of any state that will license somewhat without a degreee in school psych as a school psychologist. Some clinical psych folk may work in schools in other titles, though, from what I've heard, this seems pretty rare.

As FadedC said,there are only levels of licensure in school psych--Specialist and Doctoral. I think a lot of confusion comes from the fact that a good number of schools offer MA + CAGs degrees in School Psych as opposed to EdS, though both work out to be the same length (3 years), numbers of hours (around 70-90, depending on how the school calculates hours for internship), and have roughly the same courses/structure. Ancedotally, I met a fair number of fellow interviewees on the interview trail who had EdS degrees and were wanting to go back for a PhD to expand their career options, be eligible for a higher salary, and/or get more depth/breadth of training. I agree that someone who KNOWS they only want to work in schools and isn't particularly interested in research may fair better with an EdS over a PhD/PsyD.

 

[FadedC]

I've actually met two school psychologists who work solely with adults. One does academic counseling at a college and the second supervises students at the psychological counseling center at a college while also conducting couples therapy. The second psychologist did a post doctorate in family therapy.

 

[PickMePickMe]

Thanks for the comments, everyone! It's great to hear from professionals/students with a great understanding of school and clinical psychology.

I haven't decided whether I want to work exclusively in schools or branch out to clinics and hospitals, so I wanted to assess how much wiggle room there would be for me. Sounds like I haven't pigeon-holed myself by choosing to do a Master's/PhD in school psych at all: huge phantom concern off my shoulders!

I've actually met two school psychologists who work solely with adults. One does academic counseling at a college and the second supervises students at the psychological counseling center at a college while also conducting couples therapy. The second psychologist did a post doctorate in family therapy.

How common/difficult is it to pursue a post-doc in other types of therapies? I would love to eventually pursue one in family therapy, or things like young offenders/forensic work, or animal therapy.

 

[PickMePickMe]

Acred. status is an important consideration for any program. Ideally you'd want to attend a program that is APA-acred. (for clinical/counseling psychology) or a NASP-acred. for school psychology. You also need to take into account if students from the particular program can land APA-acred. internship sites. This is less important if you want to be a traditional school psychologist and not practice outside of the school system, though it is more important if you want to have the most opportunities as a psychologist, since many clinical/counseling psychologist jobs req. the applicant to complete an APA-acred. internship.

Additionally, for any Canadians here who might be interested: the Canadian Psychology Association now offers accreditation to School Psychology programs, so be mindful of this if you happen to be weighing schools! This started very recently (February 2010) but it might be worth it to email schools about their plans for accreditation.

 

[FadedC]

How common/difficult is it to pursue a post-doc in other types of therapies? I would love to eventually pursue one in family therapy, or things like young offenders/forensic work, or animal therapy.

It happens but I haven't gotten the sense that it's very common. Most people probably want to start making money right away when they graduate (many are already fully employed in a school before finishing their PhD because that's not a requirement) and therapy is generally not as strongly emphasized in school psych. But I can't speak for how difficult it is, I wouldn't think it wouldn't be that hard if it was something that you did want to do. But it might depend on the individual post doc.

 

[aagman01]

There are several programs that still on award a masters degree. What you call it - masters, educational specialist, CAGS, whatever, doesn't matter - the only thing that matters for professional/certification purposes is that you are enrolled in school psych program that is at least 60 credits in length and has a practicum component in school. A NASP endorsed program is beneficial if possible, because of the breadth of training any program that is NASP endorsed has to offer. APA really doesn't matter much for MA/EDS program (in fact, I'd personally recommend against if possible, because disproportionate emphasis/priority tends to go to the phd folks (not that I'm complaining, because I'm one )

I'll be a first year in a school psych PhD program in August... My opinion, FWIW...

A few School Psych PhD programs (includsing the one I'll be attending come August) are really more child-clinically focused then others and even bill themselves as such and some are more focused on school-based pratice. While the more child clinically focused programs do require school-based training, they also put a fair amount of emphasis on training in community and/or hospital settings and thus the focus of the coursework/practica is slightly different. PM me if you want to know specific programs.

Practically, everything I heard and read indicates there is a LOT of overlap in training and skills between school and child clinical programs, though tis probably varies considerably by program.

Legally, someone with a PhD/PsyD in School Psych can be licensed as a Psychologist in every state but Wyoming. If you want to do this, shoot for an APA internship; if you know you don't, an APPIC or CDSSP internship may work just fine. Usually, it's expected you'll stick to woreking with families and child/adolescent clients, though I have heard of school psychologist or two who sought out additional post-doc training and worked with adults--but I've only heard one or two stories of that second hand. Conversely, I don't know of any state that will license somewhat without a degreee in school psych as a school psychologist. Some clinical psych folk may work in schools in other titles, though, from what I've heard, this seems pretty rare.

As FadedC said,there are only levels of licensure in school psych--Specialist and Doctoral. I think a lot of confusion comes from the fact that a good number of schools offer MA + CAGs degrees in School Psych as opposed to EdS, though both work out to be the same length (3 years), numbers of hours (around 70-90, depending on how the school calculates hours for internship), and have roughly the same courses/structure. Ancedotally, I met a fair number of fellow interviewees on the interview trail who had EdS degrees and were wanting to go back for a PhD to expand their career options, be eligible for a higher salary, and/or get more depth/breadth of training. I agree that someone who KNOWS they only want to work in schools and isn't particularly interested in research may fair better with an EdS over a PhD/PsyD.

 

[aagman01]

Agreed with the adult thing. I met a psychologist who is member of the psych state licensure board. He did hi phd in school psych, and works predomantly with adults (he specilializes in counseling glbt folk, and received supervised training with adolescents and adults in predoc intenship and afterwards.

As a school psych you have a good deal of flexibility. Its all really just about getting the right supervision & experiences. You may at times, by certain indivduals or in specific areas, have a bit of a higher hurdle to pass, but as a "rising" 4th year phd student, I have seen plenty of examples of flexibility.

I've actually met two school psychologists who work solely with adults. One does academic counseling at a college and the second supervises students at the psychological counseling center at a college while also conducting couples therapy. The second psychologist did a post doctorate in family therapy.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It happens but I haven't gotten the sense that it's very common. Most people probably want to start making money right away when they graduate (many are already fully employed in a school before finishing their PhD because that's not a requirement) and therapy is generally not as strongly emphasized in school psych. But I can't speak for how difficult it is, I wouldn't think it wouldn't be that hard if it was something that you did want to do. But it might depend on the individual post doc.

Re: Therapy...

I think this varies, again, by student and program. For example, my program and one other I interviewed at (there might have been more--I can't remember) has a therapy concentration wherein students take additional child and family therapy courses and get additional therapy-focused practicum training.

 

[futureapppsy2]

There are several programs that still on award a masters degree. What you call it - masters, educational specialist, CAGS, whatever, doesn't matter - the only thing that matters for professional/certification purposes is that you are enrolled in school psych program that is at least 60 credits in length and has a practicum component in school. A NASP endorsed program is beneficial if possible, because of the breadth of training any program that is NASP endorsed has to offer. APA really doesn't matter much for MA/EDS program (in fact, I'd personally recommend against if possible, because disproportionate emphasis/priority tends to go to the phd folks (not that I'm complaining, because I'm one )

Good point. I was just pointing out that there are no consistent divisions in training, scope, or license between people who have a "Masters" in School Psych and those who have a Specialist degree.

I will say that I met some students during interviews who came in as EdS students but transfered into the PhD program, so that's something to consider re: APA accred. Interestingly, at school with both EdS and PhD program, the EdS programs always seemed to have both lower acceptance rates but also lower mean GPA and GRE scores.

 

[FadedC]

Well to elaborate more, someone with a MA in school psych has a specialist degree. Programs with a specialist degree very rarely call it that. They call it something else like MA or EdS. But it all amounts to the same thing and the same number of hours.

My school has a therapy concentration as well, but my impression is that even with that it's not something that's emphasized strongly compared to clinical or counseling programs. Your mileage may vary though.

Interesting about the acceptance rates for specialist vs. doctoral, I may have to try to dig that up for my program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Interestingly, at school with both EdS and PhD program, the EdS programs always seemed to have both lower acceptance rates but also lower mean GPA and GRE scores.

It is most likely the result of Ph.D. students self-selecting. While both are in school psychology, it is my understanding that the research requirements are different, which can influence who wants to go where.

 

[aagman01]

True. And it can vary. My program is a dual EDS/PHD program in a city. There are on average 3 phd students and 12 eds students who enter each year. A friend of mine (eds student who has an assistantship in the graduate college) processed data. He said School psych MA/EDS students had the highest entering GPA/GRE scores of any masters program at the university. Also, he stated that the MA/EDS students had a SLIGHTLY higher GPA/GRE than phd in our program (very small differences though---he said they were .1 GPA higher on average and 10 points higher on GRE). That certainly could be the result of an outlier (there is definately 1 or 2 phd students who everyone questions how they got in). 1 weak students in a phd cohort of 3 can certainly throw of numbers.

Regardless, my point is that it should not be a given that phd students have higher "numbers". Not that numbers matter much in terms of research productivity or outcomes.

It is most likely the result of Ph.D. students self-selecting. While both are in school psychology, it is my understanding that the research requirements are different, which can influence who wants to go where.

 

[futureapppsy2]

True. And it can vary. My program is a dual EDS/PHD program in a city. There are on average 3 phd students and 12 eds students who enter each year. A friend of mine (eds student who has an assistantship in the graduate college) processed data. He said School psych MA/EDS students had the highest entering GPA/GRE scores of any masters program at the university. Also, he stated that the MA/EDS students had a SLIGHTLY higher GPA/GRE than phd in our program (very small differences though---he said they were .1 GPA higher on average and 10 points higher on GRE). That certainly could be the result of an outlier (there is definately 1 or 2 phd students who everyone questions how they got in). 1 weak students in a phd cohort of 3 can certainly throw of numbers.

Regardless, my point is that it should not be a given that phd students have higher "numbers". Not that numbers matter much in terms of research productivity or outcomes.

Not at all programs, of course, but definitely at some... cf.:

Minnesota

http://www.cehd.umn.edu/edpsych/schoolpsych/admissions.html

UConn

http://www.education.uconn.edu/departments/epsy/SPSY assets/Handbook.pdf (p. 4)

It would be interesting to do a full scale study on applicant/admissions differences, though not all of the data is public, especially for EdS programs.

 

[futureapppsy2]

My school has a therapy concentration as well, but my impression is that even with that it's not something that's emphasized strongly compared to clinical or counseling programs. Your mileage may vary though.

No, probably not as much, but I hope someone who sought out the right training/practica/internship could leave with a good set of skills. Maybe I'll get back to you in five or six years?

 

[whiteelephant]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I wanted to ask a question to further the discussion. It seems there's been mixed opinion about the difference between clinical and school psychology. Apart from settings, how different is the nature of school psychology? How is the counseling different? What does this look like in medical settings?

Are there any good links on this?

 

[FadedC]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I wanted to ask a question to further the discussion. It seems there's been mixed opinion about the difference between clinical and school psychology. Apart from settings, how different is the nature of school psychology? How is the counseling different? What does this look like in medical settings?

Are there any good links on this?

Well I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but in terms of day to day activities school psychologists don't tend to engage in all that much counseling. Consultation and assessment are traditionally 2 very important roles for the school psychologist. It used to be that assessment was most of what a school psychologist did ever day. Recent changes to special education laws have changed that somewhat now though and there is more of an emphasis on consultation and working with teachers and administration to achieve goals. However the life of an individual school psychologist may still vary a lot. I know some who still spend all day doing assessments and some who do virtually none.

I'm not sure what you mean by medical settings though. A school psychologist who works in a medical setting is just doing the same thing a normal psychologist would do (and is technically not a school psychologist while working there).

 

[aagman01]

If you do a phd in school psych versus clinical, you are getting greater depth of preparation in learning disability, cognitive assessment and the like. You are likely getting less depth of training in areas such as therapy, personality assessment, mental health ests, etc.

However, training is what you make of it. If you are in school psych, you will have to (likely) go out of your way to get greater exposure/depth of training in clinical psych areas. Likewise, a clinical psych interested in schools can get training (courses and externships) to work in school settings.

Likewise, it has been my observation (clinical people can correct me if I'm wrong) that most clinical programs are geared towards work with adults. Certainly, there are programs that specialize in child clinical issues or faculty within clinical programs who specialize in child issues. However, the bulk of the money (hence research/work) in clinical seems to be towards adults. In school psych, you can gain experiences working with adults (I certainly have) but work and preparation tends to focus on working with children and adolescents.

So, basically, if you specialize in school psych but want to work outside of schools, you must (in many programs) be prepared to go beyond the school psych curriculum/requirements to get the training/competency you need to be competitive for predoctoral internship.

And as for Faded's comment about school psychs who work outside of schools as not really being school psychs, I would not disagree but would just say that a school psych who gets their phd and gets licensed as a psychologist is a psychologist who can practice in school settings as a school psychologist or can practice outside of school settings as a psychologist.

It does seem much easier nationally for a school psych to work in both school and non-school settings than for a clinical/counseling psych to work in both school and non-school settings (although school psychs will have to likely "prove" themselves a bit more than others in non-school settings). I personally went with school psych over clinical psych because of that flexibility: With a phd in school psych and working in the schools, you tend to start off with a salary somewhere in the $50,000s or $60,000s or even higher depending o nthe district, and get summers off, not to mention job security, solid benefits, etc.----a pretty solid deal when compared to what clinical psychs get paid in many settings. Especially in this bad economy - while schools are laying off teachers, they are still apparently hiring school psychs in many districts (there remains a national shortage of school psychs, which thanks to the professional schools and other factors, is also not the case for clinical psychs)

Good luck

Well I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but in terms of day to day activities school psychologists don't tend to engage in all that much counseling. Consultation and assessment are traditionally 2 very important roles for the school psychologist. It used to be that assessment was most of what a school psychologist did ever day. Recent changes to special education laws have changed that somewhat now though and there is more of an emphasis on consultation and working with teachers and administration to achieve goals. However the life of an individual school psychologist may still vary a lot. I know some who still spend all day doing assessments and some who do virtually none.

I'm not sure what you mean by medical settings though. A school psychologist who works in a medical setting is just doing the same thing a normal psychologist would do (and is technically not a school psychologist while working there).

 

[mswtopsyd]

So, basically, if you specialize in school psych but want to work outside of schools, you must (in many programs) be prepared to go beyond the school psych curriculum/requirements to get the training/competency you need to be competitive for predoctoral internship.


Can you be more specific in terms of what preparation beyond the school psych curriculum one must attain to be competent/competitive for predoctoral internships? The number of electives that I am allowed to take in my school Psy.D. program is small, so I want to make sure that I choose them wisely to help prepare me for a hospital internship someday. What else would be good preparation?

 

[FadedC]

I don't think it's so much about taking extra classes as it is about the experience you get through your practicums and externships. You won't necesarily need to take anything extra beyond your programs requirements, you will just want to make sure that you gear your field experience to getting practice outside the schools. Though an extra externship or 2 might not hurt.

So, basically, if you specialize in school psych but want to work outside of schools, you must (in many programs) be prepared to go beyond the school psych curriculum/requirements to get the training/competency you need to be competitive for predoctoral internship.


Can you be more specific in terms of what preparation beyond the school psych curriculum one must attain to be competent/competitive for predoctoral internships? The number of electives that I am allowed to take in my school Psy.D. program is small, so I want to make sure that I choose them wisely to help prepare me for a hospital internship someday. What else would be good preparation?

 

[aagman01]

You may or may not benefit from additional courses. It is, like Faded said, more about practicum and getting related applied experiences more than courses per se. In my program, we are required to complete a 9-12 credit minor in clinical psych. Because I knew my area of interest before completing any clinical courses, I was able to tie in my interests with the courses I completed. I did complete one additional course in a specific practice area that was above and beyond requirements, but it was directly related to a practice area of interest.

Plus, you stated you are in a psyd, which is a bit different from most school psych programs (that are phd programs). I believe such programs tend to have fewer research/stats requirements and more externship/course requirements.

Don't freak out.........you'll figure things out as you move along. You will have a bunch of required courses and at least a few hundred hours of school practicum.

As you proceed through those, start building an area of competency. Try to focus course papers and work on your area of interest(s) whenever possible. The important thing is to develop and work towards an area of speciality. From there, taking advantage of different learning/practice opportunities is a good way to proceed (practicum, trainings, or courses CAN be routes to take towards that end).

Good luck!

So, basically, if you specialize in school psych but want to work outside of schools, you must (in many programs) be prepared to go beyond the school psych curriculum/requirements to get the training/competency you need to be competitive for predoctoral internship.


Can you be more specific in terms of what preparation beyond the school psych curriculum one must attain to be competent/competitive for predoctoral internships? The number of electives that I am allowed to take in my school Psy.D. program is small, so I want to make sure that I choose them wisely to help prepare me for a hospital internship someday. What else would be good preparation?